tables where an interesting wargame (board type only)
was going on. "Can you teach me how to play this?"*
Only ever worked the first time I met any given bunch of guys.
But BOY I enjoyed it...
Jenn V.
* For people who don't quite understand what was going on: I was
usually mistak
to them that you /do/ believe they know the difference between
cat5 and 10baseT. Then flirt while handing them screws and letting
them install your new ethernet card.
(* if anyone's interested in why, there's diabetes in my family.
I'd like to not have to stick myself wit
http://download.sourceforge.net/linuxchix-faqs/issues.html
I've quoted the URL for the HTMLised version of the FAQ, rather
than the main FAQ.
Please note that the internal links are broken, my docbook
stylesheet for HTML doesn't seem to understand relative links.
I spologise for th
Alexander Sendzimir wrote:
>
> "Jenn V." wrote:
>
> > 2. Power.
> > If one party has power over the other - financial, managerial,
> > uni-results, force of personality - then it becomes terribly,
> > terribly awkward for the one without power.
>
srl wrote:
> Or "if you're really loyal to this company, you'll work 70 hours a
> week," which IMO is a far more common statement and gets aimed
> equally at everyone when it's used.
I got 'well, you're not married and you don't have children..
Kirrily 'Skud' Robert wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Alexander Sendzimir wrote:
> >"Jenn V." wrote:
> >
> >> 2. Power.
> >> If one party has power over the other - financial, managerial,
> >> uni-results, force o
V signals, you'd have to buy NBC's TV to see NBC programs, but it
wouldn't necessarily display CNN's.
I approve of backwards compatibility - to a point. But only to
a point. And precisely where that point is, I can't say.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing t
ne Abbott C.E.T. MSEE, DSM
Ahem.
Lots of letters after her name. I'm impressed.
Is this an attempt to use the 'appeal-to-authority' logical
fallacy?
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
that standards don't affect
research and experimentation. Only marketplace implementation.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/
Jenn
JoAnne Abbott wrote:
> Jenn V wrote:
> > Could you define the difference between a protocol and a standard?
>
> A protocol is a generalised consensus of the way something is done.
>
> A standard is so many meters, liters or lines of code.
Sorry, I disagree with
s no authority to make ME use programs
or protocols.
Jenn V.
(The Australian government, yes. The US? No.)
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/
wirren wrote:
>
> By tram you mean streetcar, right?
Well, I don't know what a streetcar is. I do know what a tram is. :)
It's 'light rail' - single carriage railed vehicles about the size
of buses, which run on rails set into the road.
Apologies for the off-topi
7;t your intention, but
it's taking a lot of self-control not to rise to what really,
REALLY looks like flamebait.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.
playing 'monopoly'
cooperatively with someone playing it competitively and see how far you
get.
> I realize this is mostly a discussion about corporate practices, but that
> doesn't mean we have to resort to generalizations about "what men do" and
> "what
ate programming method. But saying I
can effectively program that way would be like saying I have brown eyes.
Completely wrong. Not 'better' or 'worse'. Just wrong.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women&#x
Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
>
> On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Jenn V. wrote:
>
> > I had not intended to stereotype, and I /definately/ was not intending to
> > slur a very valid and often appropriate programming method. But saying I
> > can effectively program that way would
e are formal design documents? Not a great deal - *once design
is reflexive*. But they're great for teaching someone to design
reflexively, and they can be very useful as a communication tool. (Here,
look at this. This is how the program works.)
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing
d finance pitch. :)
>
I'm lucky - I've been too ill to work full time, so I've been
able to get other people to do the sales and finance pitch guff. :)
But my doctor's making me well, so I'm going to be able to work
full time... so .. ewww. Interaction with suits. :/
together.
And why is it 'more sophisticated'?
I'm genuinely curious - this isn't intended as a criticism, flame,
or whatever else it might be taken as. It's asking. Cause I don't
get it.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear
op and look for
books in the Comp Sci section with titles like 'the specification
of complex systems'.
I could recommend my old textbooks, except that they're ten
years old and doubtless wy out of date.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a n
ithms, language families,
more advanced techniques. Third year was application of what we'd
learned, professionalism, specialisation.
Bachelor of Informatics, Griffith Uni, Australia - if anyone's that
interested.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusi
nt No Sich Critter As A Female Geek.
Marketing Axiom
Jenn V.
(And now I take my tongue out of my cheek.)
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. htt
es.
We've had a volunteer to do techtalk, so I've forwarded her the
questions I've been sent so far and am letting her take that on.
Gratefully!
So. Suggestions gleefully taken for questions for grrltalk
and issues. Either send them to me, or (if you want to get
answers fast) t
pies" then only the fact that I've just
>moved to a different country would save me from getting a good kicking
[smiles sweetly]
... Anyone calling me a groupie or an IRC babe just because I've
got a socket rather than a plug ...
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing
Louise wrote:
>
> So, I'm sure other people run into the same kind of thing. What do you
> do?
Personally?
I shrug and accept language lag. Go ahead and use 'Ladies'. It'll
encourage language to catch up to reality. :)
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairi
out.
(yeah, 'our'. I count chewing it over with him while theoretically
watching 'Buffy' to be work.)
So .. is it wrong for us to investigate patents/copyright/whatever?
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women
paid
for it or not.
He crosses that clause out. But if you sign a contract with such
a clause - don't do anything profitable in your off hours!
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
female (Amberyl and Brandy), and one is
gender unknown-to-me.
I'm not really as well-qualified as Telsa seems to think I am -
I've been MUSHing for ages, but it often seems like it's mostly
among the same group of people. :/
(you go to a new MUSH, start getting to know people, a
constantly having to tell people
you don't like team sports. And they don't believe you.
Now imagine that you constantly had to tell people you /do/ like
computers. And they don't believe you.
Now - please, PLEASE, help us figure out how to get people to
believe us.
behaviour only changes when the enforcer is watching ).
Enforcement is occasionally necessary, when education has failed.
> In the most carefully controlled environment, with nothing left to chance, any given
> organism will do exactly as it damn well pleases :)
Mmm. I'
that answers to the above will address not only the problem of
> women's under-representation in computing, but that of a great many others
> as well.
ANY group who can't get into computing for reasons other than
lack-of-interest is of interest to me/us.
Jenn V.
--
"We'r
out wishlists.
It's got the Departments and the local Telco interested in making sure
there's computers available to both teachers and students in /every/
school. Including primary.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women&
start learning. Self-taught can actually be
better-taught.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/
Jenn Vesperman[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ll guess what: we're not advocating demographics as a measure of who
should be doing what. We want /fair/ opportunities. For everyone.
> PS:
>
> BTW, I get a little
> emotional about the two items under "bad", so I apologise if my tone is offensive.
It's not the to
hat people
assumed this about us?
> Incidentally, what TZ are you in? Your replies come back quite quickly.
Australia. Eastern Daylight time, in Australia.
> "Jenn V." wrote:
>
> > They (demographics) are NOT a creation of the women who are trying to get
>ourselves and
&g
Jenn V. wrote:
> > > They are NOT a creation of the women who are trying to get ourselves and
> > > our children a fair chance in the world.
Simon wrote:
> > Are you sure you speak for that entire group of women?
> > I see that they are not something you appro
ing that. It really makes it feel
like we're getting somewhere. Like my niece will be welcome in Comp Sci if
that's what she wants to do. (She's 3 now, a touch early to know!)
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is
e!
They know Dancer bounces ideas off me, and are happy with that.
Hm. Is this the sort of thing?
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/
ing and discussing
anecdotes can't help make things more equal. I also feel that how we cope
with our individual situations can give other people methods for coping
with theirs, and can make them feel less alone.
If I have developed a way to prove my competence quickly, and to stop being
ion.
Caveat: this is the perception of someone from another country, based on
media stuff.
I suspect that Hilary Clinton wouldn't have pushed Bill to the White House
if she felt she could make a good stab at it herself! The best she felt she
could realistically achieve for herself was F
Cat wrote:
>
> Ah, but I (as a 23-year-old who was in eighth grade in the late 80's)
> remember very well a choice between taking shop or taking home ec.
You had a choice? Wow. We didn't. Home ec it was, if you had
inward-pointing genitalia. Shop if it pointed out.
J
Cat wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2000, Jenn V. wrote:
> Wow -- so there has been progress! ;-)
>
> To me, that experience was exactly the sort of thing that women are
> talking about when they talk about the fact that even though
> certain opportunities seem to exist, in a signific
ible.
Learn the reasons women leave jobs, and effectively negate them, and gee,
how much retraining money would be saved?
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. http://www.pu
o with her husband?
And there were no skeletons in the closets of - oh - any of the Kennedy
men? Or ... Clinton?
Can you /honestly/ tell me this was any worse than all your male
presidents? Or is there a double standard?
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a
more willing to accept bad treatment
than women are?
That women demand fair and honest treatment from their employers, and men
don't? Now isn't that interesting!
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work
use it was a poor district, but I did have
good access to a library. So yes, reading may be one of the determining
factors.
It certainly made me stand out as 'wierd' at school
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is
rriageable age
(when she made her 'debut'), but after she was married - after all the
local Hoi Polloi had met, discussed her, decided who she would wed, and had
her safely wed.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women&#
then would liven
> > things up, methinks.
>
> As soon as they make one with lots of pockets, I'm there.
Lots of pockets. Practical sorts of skirts - ones you can walk in, run in,
and sit down cross-legged on the floor in.
Hm. Maybe this is why I wear jeans?
Jenn V.
--
"
ining has been sewn in place.
Eesh.
WHY are there no pockets in women's clothes? Are we assumed to not want to
carry things?
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall.
ments/whatever. And I don't know
any way to explain to them /how/ these exist. Especially since I can often
see causes in their own actions. Sigh.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Terri Oda wrote:
> Jenn V. wrote:
> >Mmmhmm. IMO (and YMMV) some people can't perceive that there is still
> >discrimination/are still offputting environments/whatever. And I don't know
> >any way to explain to them /how/ these exist. Especially since I can o
l women and a select group of men (eg, this list) take
as base assumptions from which to work.
2. A hell of a lot of people, of both genders, never reach this
point.
3. Almost everything so far is questions. We don't have answers
either.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the cool
ke charge of the male
change.
If you have ideas for things women CAN do, though.. I'd love to
know them. Other than 'be present and visible and competent', I'm
fresh out
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
> Sunnan (geek chicks really politically correct? Oh well..)
Works for me - so long as its meant to indicate 'geek which happens
to have XX chromosomes'. What will we call the guys? Geek blokes?
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion react
Rik Hemsley wrote:
>
> #if Jenn V.
> > In my experience, though, if females attempt to change male
> > behaviour - the male behaviour gets worse. So I'm inclined to let
> > the males who /are/ sympathetic//equalist take charge of the male
> > change.
>
x27;s wrong with the thing that's broken, and leading them to
figuring out a potential repair.
Once they've repaired one thing, it gets easier to lead them to
repairing the next one. Once they've repaired four or five things,
they're into how /good/ it /feels/ to be competent!
m to it, and
(best of all) trips to the mountains/forest/bushland.
It's useful enough to have it that we keep it, but it's used
only where shanks' pony and public transport won't take us.
Bit of a best-of-both-worlds situation.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coola
Terri Oda wrote:
> You're a menace to society as we know it, Jenn. That rocks. :)
(bows) Thank you. Thank you.
And for my next trick..
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
27;.
So long as you give them thinking time and don't frustrate them
with too many questions too quickly, it seems to work well.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/
Jenn Vesperman[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.simegen.com/~jenn
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
iddle of a tutorial? Happened to me.
> Do you feel somewhat aprehensive or uncomfortable in a male mojority
> learning environment?
Absolutely.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Free
rs ago) to advance by marriage or by picking
a management-type career.
Engineering always has been* an indirect and uncertain path to
social status.
* for century sized values of 'always'
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
T
Kirrily 'Skud' Robert wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jenn V. wrote:
> >One is a hacker - she does it because she loves it. She isn't paid a hell
> >of a lot, but that's because she owns a startup company. She's happy, if
>
em, and who are
> intelligent. I'm surprised you ahve troulbe finding a date given you
> clearly fit all 3 criteria.
You think so?
In my experience, I intimidate both genders. So I'm uncomfortable
around anyone of /either/ gender who isn't a geek. And I even
intimidate ge
ishment as it is (medical diet).
Greenie: semi-inactive. I do what I can within the life I have.
Hippie: nope.
Queer: I'm bi. Everyone thinks I'm queer...
Geek: absolutely. (Though working at Netizen I start to wonder
if I'm really as geeky as I thought.)
Jenn V.
--
"We
.
But we didn't 'date'. Roleplayed, talked (and fought) computers,
saw the occasional good film (Labyrinth, when it first came out)
but didn't date.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
outs (down here, at least) apparently
tend to be very smoke. My bi and lesbian friends refuse to take me.
(I have trouble with two or three people smoking in a ventilated room.
Severely sensitive to it.)
(Yes, I did wind up with gay friends. And a couple of them know
computers!)
Jenn V.
--
"
her Melbourne-folk on this list. :)
Lets make Melbourne an enclave of Linux-wielding hippie geek
vegan dykes - and those who don't quite fit that description.
(linux-wielding hippie geek vegan males are welcome too. And
those who don't quite fit...)
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the
made me cry. Not bad-crying, but 'someone else knows
how it feels' crying.
Yes. Exactly. That's what it is. That's me.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. http
Rik Hemsley wrote:
> Jenn V. wrote:
> > The same as for a bi women. Bi or bisexual.
>
> That's crap though. We need two new words, one for bi women, one for
> bi men. Then make everyone in the world aware of them and they move
> into common use. Reckon that can be don
ormal font size settings".
Raises her hand. Me. That'd include me!
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/
Jenn Vesperman[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.simegen.com/~jenn
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
.." if necessary.
Or I take him aside privately at lunchtime and tell him what he's
doing. Depends on how I'm feeling, and suchlike.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
e there annoys me to no end.
Religion != Christianity. I'm not christian. I am religious.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/
Jenn
is a "sense of wonder"
> > apprehension of the infinite complexity which is entirely built upon the
> > basis of 1 and 0.
Yup. Or the sense of wonder at the infinite complexity built on
protons, neutrons and electrons...
Or the sense of wonder at colour...
Or at ..
J
Hm.
I just thought of an answer for the last question ('how do you
justify linuxchix?').
'I justify it the same way I justify any Open Source project:
I perceived a need, and I created something to fill that need.'
... thoughts?
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing
quire them to be comfortable around
computers.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/
Jenn Vesperma
tivation to carry the motivations further.
Um. 'Our' position is that we want to stop _QUASHING_ this spark.
BTW. Your mails are datestamped 1994. :)
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
g. The shoes, the long
fingernails, the hobbleskirts, the fragile stockings - they all add up, to
me, to the idea 'Hey, look! I'm so rich my wife doesn't have to do a
thing'.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This
won't get it in a 'logical' relationship - but in ANY relationship, that
headiness goes away quickly. Solid, stable love is a deeper, quieter
feeling - and yes, I have that with Dancer. And at any time, I can close my
eyes and reach for it, and be overwhelmed by it.
> Some
ne! Take heart from the fact that the women's networks DO
exist. They're proof that you can get your networks in place.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Free
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