Simon Britnell wrote:
>
> > More meat for the issues FAQ.
>
> FAQ
The fullstop was for the end of the sentence.
> What I'm saying is that trying to remedy this by shoe-horning more females into geek
> roles is a broken thing to do. For a start, it undermines peoples individuality,
> yours included.
I'd like to know where you get the idea that we're trying to do that.
That's a common accusation, and is not at ALL what ANYONE is trying
to do.
> What needs fixing is the attitude of those who are giving you the problem.
Yes. And yours is actually part of the attitude, I'm afraid.
> Calling
> it a demographics problem robs you of the responsibility (and emotional power) to
> deal with the real problem locally.
Um. *You* are calling it a demographics problem. *We* are providing
a space where women (and sympathetic men) who feel like they're the
ONLY woman in the WORLD who likes computers/linux/whatever can find
out that they're not.
> The scale involved in shifting demographics is
> enormous. A move to 50%/50% male/female split could take years, and even once it's
> reached, it will still take time for those with sexist attitudes to shift their
> heads.
We don't want a 50/50 split. We want whatever split is natural - based
on the individual desires.
> If the men around you already have bad attitudes, equal demographics won't
> solve that in any reasonable amount of time.
Women have the attitude too.
Women who use the excuse 'I don't have to know about that, I'm female'
get threatened when their own daughters start to 'know about that'.
Whatever
the 'that' is.
Men who use the ego-boost 'I'm a man, I know all about that' get threatened
when their own daughters start to 'know about that'. Whatever the 'that'
is.
And yes, the inverse is true. Men who refuse to cook get threatened when
their sons start to turn into chefs. We would like to fix that attitude,
too.
But changing attitudes is beyond the scope of anyone's individual ability.
Group efforts are required - primarily in leading by example. And in
holding
each other's hands, reassuring each other that no, they're NOT the only
man in the world who wants to be a nurse, or the only woman in the world
who
wants to be a programmer.
And this list happens to be a list for women who want to play or work with
Linux. To reassure us/them that they/we aren't alone, and that there are
both women and men who want to SEE women in Linux ... presuming that there
are women who want to be here.
Which there are. And once you've been on the list a while, and seen the
intros
that say 'I'm SO glad I found this place, I thought I was the only one!',
you'll
realise that support groups like this are /necessary/.
> This isn't usually a big issue as the opinion of
> people you don't really know doesn't usually matter much anyway.
That's a very *untrue* statement for women who have been socialised in the
British/british-colonial-descended cultures.
The opinion of the people around you/opinion of society is a very very
strong
influence on women in such cultures. Just /try/ telling a female
acquaintence
that 'a little bit of extra weight looks good on a woman' and you'll see
social
pressure dramatically in action.
Social pressure, social attitudes, become internalised. It's highly
arguable
whether it's genetic or cultural - we /assume/ it's cultural - but it
visibly
exists. It's part of the experience of being raised female in such a
culture.
And the opinion of society is /read/ by the opinion of the strangers you
come
into contact with.
> In your own world, you *choose* who you associate with ( if you don't, time to start
> ). You can choose to educate the problems, you can choose to associate with people
> who aren't problems or you can choose to just put up with it. Do whichever one suits
> you best.
Only to a limited extent. It can be difficult to choose your employer
until you have sufficient reputation. Even then, it can be difficult
to choose your co-workers. And it's almost impossible to choose clients.
> A final note on education. Complaining about "rights", "equality" and the like is
> worse than useless except when preaching to the converted.
Who's complaining? We're /acting/.
> Most of the people who
> need changing just add the "whinger" tag to their opinion of you. The only effective
> was to change opinions is to be a strong example that the opinions are wrong.
Um. Isn't that what we're doing? Being out there, being visible, being
competent, providing clubs and meeting places and installfests and
tech-support-that-doesn't-assume-female-means-stupid.
> Enforcement, on the other hand, changes behaviour and entrenches attitudes ( and the
> behaviour only changes when the enforcer is watching ).
Enforcement is occasionally necessary, when education has failed.
> In the most carefully controlled environment, with nothing left to chance, any given
> organism will do exactly as it damn well pleases :)
Mmm. I'm hoping you're an educable organism, willing to see that
you've made stereotype-based assumptions. Your letters so far seem
to indicate that - but also clearly indicate the assumptions you've
been making.
Please, try to perceive them and correct them.
Jenn V.
--
"We're repairing the coolant loop of a nuclear fusion reactor.
This is women's work!"
Helix, Freefall. http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/
Jenn Vesperman [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.simegen.com/~jenn
************
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
