Steve Kudlak wrote:
> This is a touchy issue, because if one woman said: "Don't do that", it might
> actually stop things. Or something like" Or it's not worth fight over"
> Instead they back out of the way and let the guys duke it out.
Or /she/ might get hit. Have you thought about /why/ th
Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
>
> On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Cat wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 31 Oct 1999, Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> >
> > > Nothing stops the conversation around here faster than some CMOTW [1]
> > > (who obviously doesn't get it) posting a lot of things that create what
> > > is basically noise. And
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> These are all possible. You have mentioned that you dress as a biker -
> well, I tend to be afraid of people who dress as bikers, because my
> experience is that I am more likely to be (physically) hurt by a biker
> than I am to be hurt by a suit.
I
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Right. What I'm saying is that unless we recognize that this will happen
> > over and over and over and that we need a better sense of deja vu, we'll
> > have other discussions sidetracked and killed.
>
> I think what we might need to do to resolve
Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Steve Kudlak wrote:
>
> > Well let's see, my emotional,. really got the best of me,
>
> Steve, this list isn't about YOUR alienation, no matter how real it may
> be.
>
> It's about OUR alienation.
>
> --
> _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net
Kelly Lynn Martin wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:29:17 -0800 (PST), Deirdre Saoirse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> >Steve, this list isn't about YOUR alienation, no matter how real it
> >may be.
>
> >It's about OUR alienation.
>
> Well, to an extent he's experiencing a lesser alienation female
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Steve Kudlak wrote:
>
> > This is a touchy issue, because if one woman said: "Don't do that", it might
> > actually stop things. Or something like" Or it's not worth fight over"
> > Instead they back out of the way and let the guys duke it out.
>
> Or /she/ might
> As a result, I brought up the issue (rather regretfully) that we exclude
> men altogether from the meeting as it changes the experience.
I'm certainly not going to stop you from excluding men from your chapter
meetings. I will not exclude them from the online forums, but I can see
situations i
>
> So, if you wish to exclude men from your chapter meetings, I think
> that's fair. It's unfortunate, but it would be
> unrealistic/idealistic/foolish of me to insist otherwise.
>
> - deb
>
True enough. I hope we never do this at the Ottawa meeting, though. I think
the nice thing about the Lin
I think we need to be careful about assigning the blame for our current
unhappines about the way women are treated to unthinking, insensitive men.
I wish it were so simple; but I fear the cause of the problem is far more
complicated. Here are two illustrative examples from my own life:
1) When
Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
(Stuff about deference)
I tend to defer to Ellen ( as friend who is a mathematician) on math. She tends to
defer to me on biology and biiochemistry). Because of our areas of expertise. My
wonderment is why certain things
> > But I think it was more the railroading, the getting sidetracked by
> > comments from men. I think that is a problem of female acculturation that
> > I really hadn't even noticed before.
>
> I have. We /defer/. We're usually unconscious of this deference - but it
> happens in all walks of li
Hi, Deb,
> I'm certainly not going to stop you from excluding men from your chapter
> meetings. I will not exclude them from the online forums, but I can see
> situations in which face-to-face meetings may be improved by enforcing
> an all-women rolecall.
>
> So, if you wish to exclude men from
On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:46:20 -0500, "Caitlyn M. Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>For better or for worse, I don't think it's legal to do so.
Probably not. U.S. federal sex discrimination laws do not apply to
private clubs[1], and LinuxChix chapters are private clubs as far as I
can tell.
E
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Caitlyn M. Martin wrote:
>
> > So, if you wish to exclude men from your chapter meetings, I think
> > that's fair.
>
> For better or for worse, I don't think it's legal to do so. This was
> discussed heavily by Webgrrls a couple of years ago, and the conclusion that
> was
Greetings... I'm going to go into lurk mode for awhile(I was planning
to lurk earlyer and let the thread I started die)... but before I do
I want to address this thread... since I some how find myself being
mentioned at the conclusion of each response..
"Unconscious assumption that women help an
> For better or for worse, I don't think it's legal to do so.
Oo. You might have a point (that reminds me to never respond to mail
pre-coffee). This in mind, I withdraw my earlier statement. The last
thing I need is lawyers at my door.
- deb
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL P
Aaron Malone wrote:
> We do our best. :)
And it's appreciated, believe me!
> Actually, thinking about this (and these observations are pre-coffee, mind you),
> my impressions are a bit different. Most guys (and a few women) I know have a
> tendency to do this, but not because they expect the
> And do people who value the King-of-the-Hill points less, wind up not having
> their issues and thoughts discussed?
Right. Or if they do manage to inject something into the conversation, one of
the Obnoxious will then attempt to twist it back to his (or her) thread.
> I'm afraid I don't see q
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Caitlyn M. Martin wrote:
> For better or for worse, I don't think it's legal to do so. This was
> discussed heavily by Webgrrls a couple of years ago, and the conclusion that
> was reached was that we, ourselves, could be sued for discrimination. This
> applies only to the U
Kelly Lynn Martin wrote:
>
> On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:12:31 -0800 (PST), Deirdre Saoirse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> >>An interesting experience was brought up at the end: a male to
> >>female post-op was working as a computer programmer. After the
> >>operation, her salary decreased by $2000. M
A friend of mine sent this to our mailing list and I thought some of you
would find it interesting:
http://depts.washington.edu/iat/index.html
The tests are designed to test your implicit attitudes -- whether you make
an automatic association between certain things. The one that would be of
par
> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:38:21 -0500 (EST)
> From: Ingrid Schupbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [issues] Something I've observed
> {snippage}
>
> Sure, sometimes
> boys say stupid things; but at least here someone will let them know when
> it happens.
Amen. God knows there are plenty of
> I found out that I, with 3% of the people who took the test, had a moderate tendancy
>to
> associate females with science. Not *too* big a surprise since I've been
> good and brainwashed with female-friendly science programs, although it'd be
> nice if I could say I had no associations.
I had
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Aaron Malone wrote:
> Actually, thinking about this (and these observations are pre-coffee, mind you),
> my impressions are a bit different. Most guys (and a few women) I know have a
> tendency to do this, but not because they expect the rest of the conversants to
> defer. T
Terri Oda wrote:
> A friend of mine sent this to our mailing list and I thought some of you
> would find it interesting:
>
> http://depts.washington.edu/iat/index.html
Very cool tests! I did all three, and found out some very interesting results (that
I'm not
very proud of *laugh*)
For the r
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Deb Richardson wrote:
> I'm certainly not going to stop you from excluding men from your chapter
> meetings. I will not exclude them from the online forums, but I can see
> situations in which face-to-face meetings may be improved by enforcing
> an all-women rolecall.
I woul
On Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:06:34 -0500, Amanda Knox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>Very cool tests! I did all three, and found out some very interesting
>results (that I'm not very proud of *laugh*)
>For the race test, I had a strong automatic association with blacks
>and 'bad' things (and I've never th
Hm.. i took it twice and got inconclusive on both of them. I noticed
that I kept on putting "her" and "history" on the male side, so maybe it
was getting mad at me for hitting buttons before I read the whole thing
:)
It might be interesting to see if there are any associations with the
individu
> I did the gender and race ones, and scored a moderate preference for
> black, which surprises the hell out of me because I am personally
> conscious of a moderate dislike/distrust of black people, or at least
> black men (black women don't bother me as much generally), and a
> strong association
Nicole Zimmerman wrote:
> > > There was a great documentary on the TV/TS lifestyle on the Discovery
> > > channel (it just ended and I am sure it will be repeated).
> >
> > I'm going to have to make a point of watching it.
>
> According to my http://www.tvguide.com/listings it will be repeated
> Being in aancient days" that as a biologists(bio or bo for short) some of it
> sounded pretrty shakey. Awful had to project bird behavior to humasnas and
> with pick your specoees. Chimps and Bobonanos are top faves d3epending on
> your views. Discovery channel stuff is ovtern biologically skewe
On Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 11:10:09PM -0800, Nicole Zimmerman wrote:
> An interesting experience was brought up at the end: a male to female
> post-op was working as a computer programmer. After the operation, her
> salary decreased by $2000. My mouth definitely dropped open!
ah yes, the estrogen ta
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Nicole Zimmerman wrote:
> It seemed pretty legit, discussing the genetics of the X and Y
> chromosomes that make us the physical gender we are ("mental" or
> psychological gender determined differently) having been around for much
> longer than was first assumed.
A terminolog
> A terminology suggestion: "gender" is usually acknowledged to be a social
> construction, whereas "sex" is usually the word for anatomy. So, for
> example, someone may have a "male" sex, but have the gender "man".
Ahh better terms, thank you. :o)
> Note that this isn't a one-to-one mapping; f
> >For the race test, I had a strong automatic association with blacks
> >and 'bad' things (and I've never thought of myself as a racist
> >person, either)
Haven't done it yet, but I suspect I'll show some sort of skew on the
blacks one - I'm accustomed to seeing Euro-caucasians, orientals and
A
strong automatic preference for young
strong automatic preference for White
slight automatic association between female and science
one time taking each.
:-)
Walt
-~
In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat;
but in the evolution of real knowledge it marks the first s
On Tue, 2 Nov 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> (Same way I expect the skin that's falsely called 'yellow' to be over
> Oriental-type features, and 'white' to be over Caucasian shapes.)
> the plumbing system being 'wrong', or noone having vegemite, but not
> that. You know?
Yeahyou're not t
btw, several definitions of the good/bad things are rather
subjective...
i.e., war, the languages, et al. . .
Walt
-~
Wonder is the foundation of all philosophy, inquiry its
progress, ignorance its end.
Montaigne
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, curious wrote:
> "Unconscious assumption that women help and defer to men, perhaps?" Jen M.
>
> I don't belive it is anyone's obligation to help another.
This is a difference between men and women's perspective. Women ARE raised
to help. If you don't understand the deference
Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Steve Kudlak wrote:
>
> > Well let's see, my emotional,. really got the best of me,
>
> Steve, this list isn't about YOUR alienation, no matter how real it may
> be.
>
> It's about OUR alienation.
>
> --
> _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Aaron Malone wrote:
> Right. Or if they do manage to inject something into the conversation, one of
> the Obnoxious will then attempt to twist it back to his (or her) thread.
[snip]
> You're right, it's a combination of both. Those who engage in this sort of
> behavior are
BTW, I want to say that I'm not singling out Chris so much with my last
post as it is an expression of frustration with several of the guys here
that I put into one post. You might say that my tolerance snapped with
Steve.
--
_Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net
Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> BTW, I want to say that I'm not singling out Chris so much with my last
> post as it is an expression of frustration with several of the guys here
> that I put into one post. You might say that my tolerance snapped with
> Steve.
>
> --
> _Deirdre * http://www.linuxc
All righty that was a short lurk :)
enough people indicated in emails that I realy wasn't that bad...
well that and I had one of those just about to fallasleep mental
statements that I had to write down :)
Note this was copy/pasted from pine :) sorry for the weird indention :)
I was watching 20
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Terri Oda wrote:
> A friend of mine sent this to our mailing list and I thought some of you
> would find it interesting:
>
> http://depts.washington.edu/iat/index.html
Very interesting! I had slight preference for young over old, and I only
took that one once.
For the othe
Maybe this should move to grrltalk? It seems kind of far afield from
'issues of women in Linux' to me.
_Cat
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Steve Kudlak wrote:
>
> > This is a touchy issue, because if one woman said: "Don't do that", it might
> > actually stop things. Or somethi
Cat wrote:
> Maybe this should move to grrltalk? It seems kind of far afield from
> 'issues of women in Linux' to me.
>
> _Cat
z(Syuff userul clippedd)
>
>
I feel pretty much like it is as dead issue. I pretty much give up.It is just too
depressing and nothing much has been solved.. It seem
Steve Kudlak wrote:
> Cat wrote:
>
> > Maybe this should move to grrltalk? It seems kind of far afield from
> > 'issues of women in Linux' to me.
> >
> > _Cat
>
> z(Syuff userul clippedd)
>
> >
> >
>
> I
I agree, part of it all was set off by a bad day. My bad relationships witrh my local
are
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