[AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

The first beta testers have received their UFOs and performance reports are emerging. While download speeds are respectable on an empty network, Starlink's main weakness is its highly variable latency. Typical beta user minimum latencies are in the mid 30ies with very high variability. Ping tes

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

One report yesterday said if you are near trees you have problems. You need lots of unobstructed sky for it work work well. -Original Message- From: fiber...@mail.com Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 8:29 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

This is BETA! It will only get better and they're targeting less than 20ms next year. Averages are about 40ms now so they're well below the 100ms threshold on average which is what matters, not the couple pings that are higher. On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 9:30 AM wrote: > The first beta testers have r

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Keep in mind they don't have enough satellites launched yet for full coverage. It's moderate coverage. Their beta invites specifically say that they can expect interruptions and periods of downtime until more satellites are launched and reach their desired orbits. On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 9:35 AM Dari

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Yeah. It's beta. They have no where near their full constellation AND they do not have their sat-sat interlink working yet. The jury is still out, and it is way too early to be passing judgement yet. bp On 11/3/2020 7:35 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Yeah, they have an AR app which you can use to check your location for obstructions. Jared > From: ch...@wbmfg.com > To: af@af.afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms > > One report yesterday said if you are near trees you have problems. You need > lots

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Space lasers won't affect end user minimum latency.     Jared From: "Bill Prince" To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms Yeah. It's beta. They have no where near their full constellation AND they do not have their sat-sat interlink working yet.

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end point. I think it will make a massive difference. bp On 11/3/2020 7:45 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote: Space lasers won't affect end user minimum latency. Jared From: "Bill Prince" To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re:

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

From: "Darin Steffl" To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms > It will only get better and they're targeting less than 20ms next year. There have been previous reports of best case latencies of 20 ms before the public beta. H

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

From: "Bill Prince" To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms > > I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end > point. I think it will make a massive difference. You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, i

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Every technology medium can have ping spikes. Cable, DSL, and WISP's in particular exhibit some level of jitter particularly if there's problem or interference. Fiber is going to be the most stable if there aren't underlying issues like weak light levels. What I'm saying is if you can average 20ms

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

The latency figures reported so far have been measured during coverage periods. As such adding satellites won't help. You'd actually have to improve the tracking and routing to make a difference.     Jared From: "Darin Steffl" To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starli

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Yes, I've seen that email. You'll note that they very carefully avoid mentioning that the latency targets are best case minimum latencies, not average latency or even latency upper and lower limits.   Jared     From: "Darin Steffl" To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Subject: Re: [AFMUG]

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

From: "Darin Steffl" To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms   > What I'm saying is if you can average 20ms and 1 out of 100 pings spikes > higher, it will not make a huge difference in performance. > The law of averages is wha

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

And what is the min/avg/max latency over typical home WiFi from router to device? -Original Message- From: AF On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:06 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms Yes, I've seen t

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

We won't have "facts" for at least a year. In the mean time everyone is blowing smoke. bp On 11/3/2020 7:57 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote: From: "Bill Prince" To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms I call that BS. It means they can route the

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

1/3/15 ms. How is that relevant? Jared > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2020 at 11:20 AM > From: "Ken Hohhof" > To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms > > And what is the min/avg/max latency over typical home WiFi from route

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Are you claiming the speed of light in vacuum is fake news now? Jared > From: "Bill Prince" > To: af@af.afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms > > We won't have "facts" for at least a year. In the mean time everyone is > blowing smoke. > > > bp > > >

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Never underestimate how bad an average consumer can mess up speedtest results. The ONLY valid way is to hardwire directly to the modem or router and make sure there are no other devices connected, and no background traffic. Then make sure you use the Speedtest.net app on a PC or Mac instead of the

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Also, speedtests are introducing additional latency beyond the first hop. There is some level of latency between Starlink's ground stations and the public speedtest server. It could be 1ms or could be 80ms if they're testing to the east coast but their gateway is near the west coast. The only sure

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

690/186000= 3 mS one way. So 6 mS best case scenario time of flight. But that is only if you are right next to the down link station and the satellite is directly overhead. I would guess that the average slant range will be 3-4 X that distance. Still 4x 6 mS is only 24 mS. Plus processing

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

We're obsessing over the wide area latency even though it goes to space and back, but the in-home latency is not much less and nobody every seems to worry about it. Other than the occasional diehard gamer, nobody "hardwires" their devices anymore, it's all WiFi. Another way of saying the Starlink

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

If I worked at Hughesnet right now I would be looking to jump ship. -Original Message- From: Ken Hohhof Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:01 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms We're obsessing over the wide are

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

The average consumer will no doubt mess up a speedtest. However, every consumer will not mess it up in exactly the same way. With the number of reports available, I believe we have a statistically valid lower bound on latency over Starlink.   The reports also have in common that the variability

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

The Starlink app measures latency to what I believe is either the first hop or the closest ground station.   Jared     From: "Darin Steffl" To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms Also, speedtests are introducing additional 

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I don't know about *anybody* who has 40 ms in-home latency. Normal in-home latency is measured in milliseconds. The WAN latency absolutely dwarfs that. Starlink's latency is an order of magnitude larger than in-home latency. Obviously this is a matter of interest when evaluating the big picture.

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I'd like to see someone run smokeping from a local server out to every hop along the path out to the public Internet. Set it up to 1 ping every second so that you get that depth of detail. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m05abdGSOxY On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:34 AM Mike Hammett wrote: > I'd like to see someone run smokeping from a local server out to every hop > along the path out to the public Internet. Set it up to 1 ping every second > so that you get that depth of detail. > > >

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Just a heads up, that Youtube video is pure third party speculation and part of that speculation is already known to be false. Jared       From: "TJ Trout" To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms https://www.youtube.com/wat

[AFMUG] space junk

Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff. Check out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our planet. http://stuffin.space -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] VPN Issue

I have a customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being disconnected. I try use Ping Plotter and PathPing to test to the VPN end point. Usually I see a bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a CenturyLink router. Not sure if that is the issue or not. Not sure what

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return. All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)   Jared     From: "Cameron Crum" To: "Anim

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

I suppose having the customer complain to their VPN provider is totally out of the question? Jared > From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" > Subject: [AFMUG] VPN Issue > > I have a customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being > disconnec

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

If it's a remote employee connecting to their workplace you can pretty much guarantee that the response will be "my IT people said it's my ISP, there's NO problems on their end". From: AF On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:22 PM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

What would cause the issue? James Howard wrote: If it’s a remote employee connecting to their workplace you can pretty much guarantee that the response will be “my IT people said it’s my ISP, there’s NO problems on their end”……… *From:* AF *On Behalf Of * fiber...@mail.com *Sent:* Tuesday,

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

What about the moon Nazis? -Original Message- From: AF On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the space junk. There was some lower l

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

IMO, I don't think it's useful to ping all the devices in the path across the internet.  The return path from that device may be different from the return path from the destination, and the management IP that it responds from might be /intentionally /inaccessible to you. If I couldn't ping one

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

If their VPN using UDP? That's like putting messages in bottles. I had a customer whose kid set up a VPN on their home router so all traffic from the home was turned into UDP and routed through a gateway who knows where. The dad was calling about problems with his traffic, something normal like

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

Title: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue James, Yup -- Best regards, Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com Myakka Technologies, Inc. www.Myakka.com -- Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 1:25:37 PM, you wrote: If it’s a remote employee connecting to their workplace you can pretty much

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

Have you done a packet capture?   Jared     From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue James, Yup -- Best regards, Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com Myakka Technologies, Inc. www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

Not yet. May have to try that next. -- Best regards, Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com Myakka Technologies, Inc. www.Myakka.com -- Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 2:24:23 PM, you wrote: fmc> Have you done a packet capture? fmc>   fmc> Jared fmc>   fmc>   fmc> From: "M

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I have 13 mS to google. -Original Message- From: fiber...@mail.com Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:32 AM To: af@af.afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms I don't know about *anybody* who has 40 ms in-home latency. Normal in-home latency is me

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

I thought most VPN problems were due to NAT traversal issues, but usually that means they flat out don't work, not work for awhile and drop the connection. -Original Message- From: AF On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:26 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Can you make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs? -Original Message- From: AF On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:43 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms I have 13 mS to google. -O

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

If I have enough tachyons. -Original Message- From: Ken Hohhof Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:25 PM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms Can you make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs? -Original Message

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

You guys just crossed the Star Trek/Star Wars streams. The universe will now explode. On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:29 PM wrote: > If I have enough tachyons. > > -Original Message- > From: Ken Hohhof > Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:25 PM > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > Subject

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time. Thank you, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com -Original Message- From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: Re: [A

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Hate it when that happens. -- bp part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 12:42 PM Cameron Crum wrote: > You guys just crossed the Star Trek/Star Wars streams. The universe will > now explode. > > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:29 PM wrote: > >> If I have enough tachyons. >> >> -Origi

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

It could also be that the have the timeout too tight, and you're seeing a side effect of variable latency. Like the others, you may want to get a packet capture. Although that may not tell you much. Perhaps their IT department can give you an error code or explanation? -- bp part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere since we know where it all is On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster wrote: > When yo

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

It sounds simple when you put it like that. On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:29 PM Steve Jones wrote: > is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering > tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just > goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the a

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

good luck on that. I hate when the "IT" comes back, its always something thats patently false like the internet connection doesnt have enough bandwidth. its like seriously, how much overhead does your vpn have that it requires a notable amount of bandwidth to stay up On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:28 PM

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

Title: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue Bill, Unfortunately explaining any of this to her or even the IT people will be futile. -- Best regards, Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com Myakka Technologies, Inc. www.Myakka.com -- Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 4:27:39 PM, you wrote:

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

The reward for the first practical application of orbital rendezvous was the position of second man on the moon. On 11/3/20 1:31 PM, Cameron Crum wrote: It sounds simple when you put it like that. On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:29 PM Steve Jones > wrote: is t

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

We should appoint Steve as space junk zar (or would it be Space Junk Zar?). That could be a fun job with no frustarations whatever. -- bp part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 1:29 PM Steve Jones wrote: > is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering > ticket

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

Should be Tzar...you know, a lot of that junk is probably russian and we don't want to offend them. On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 4:05 PM Bill Prince wrote: > We should appoint Steve as space junk zar (or would it be Space Junk > Zar?). That could be a fun job with no frustarations whatever. > > -- > b

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

On 11/3/20 1:36 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote: Bill, Unfortunately explaining any of this to her or even the IT people will be futile. With stuff going to "the cloud" the average amount of clue some random company's IT person has is often low, since all they really need to know now

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

When you start looking at what space junk is up there vast amount of it will be traced back to the government of USA and Russia/USSR On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 4:29 PM Steve Jones wrote: > is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering > tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

I think the best practice right now is to save enough propellant to boost your old satellite into a parking orbit.  The idea is we spent a grillion dollars putting it up there, and someday we might harvest old satellites for material rather than launching new stuff for a grillion more.  You'd h

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

I think it's about how much delta v required to de-orbit vs. park.   For LEO sats the DV is smaller to deorbit vs. park.  For sync sats, it's just about getting it above the very valuable sync orbit.  So a small increase in orbit is not much fuel.   For lower than sync, it's a lot of unused spa

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

Here are some of the variables that will affect deorbit Altitude, mass, speed and surface area. At the lower orbit aka 500km where starlink is there is still some atmosphere so they are are getting air resistance and are slowing down. As they slow down they get more air resistance until they fully

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

https://www.space.com/spacex-starship-space-junk-cleanup From: AF On Behalf Of Zach Underwood Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:01 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk Here are some of the variables that will affect deorbit Altitude, mass, speed and sur

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

Thinking about grillions now. We BBQ's burgers last night, and I sliced some onion to char on the side. So is a BBQ-charred onion called a grillion? -- bp part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:12 PM Ken Hohhof wrote: > https://www.space.com/spacex-starship-space-junk-cleanup > > >

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

oh heck yeah, it will be kinda like air hockey on a larger scale for me. Ill always try to hit canada with debris. Im also really corrupt, so the right outfit puts a few shekels in my pocket, maybe my roomba knocks somebodies 10 billion dollar sateelite out of the shy, never know, lots of accidents

[AFMUG] OT: Definite Political: The Election

/lent So, our industry is coming off the free mad cash (((those guys))) push with four years of (((these guys))) free for all. Either way this goes theres a reckoning coming over the next 4 years. And ol elon is out there terrifying WISPS (BTW, boss is seriously in the market if anybody wants to

[AFMUG] ARIN Spam from Arab Emirates

Hey look! The United Arab Emirates are opening their coffers for us COVID poor ISPs, lol! "Greetings, I hope this email finds you well. My name is Valerie McGrath, I am a Lenders Liaison Representative writing from the United Arab Emirates. The covid 19 crisis has wreaked havoc in busines

Re: [AFMUG] ARIN Spam from Arab Emirates

ive been tempted to see what these spammers will pay for my arin space. Im thinking about telling them i only want 1k down per /24 if they want my arin login info On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 7:50 PM Sterling Jacobson wrote: > Hey look! The United Arab Emirates are opening their coffers for us COVID >

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

Have to pronounce onion like Justin Wilson, the Cookin’ Cajun. I gar-on-tee. From: AF On Behalf Of Bill Prince Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:32 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk Thinking about grillions now. We BBQ's burgers last night, and I

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

i miss that show On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 8:23 PM Ken Hohhof wrote: > Have to pronounce onion like Justin Wilson, the Cookin’ Cajun. I > gar-on-tee. > > > > *From:* AF *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:32 PM > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > *Subject:* Re

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Definite Political: The Election

They've had referendums go either direction. Here's everything I know about Puerto Rico: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPlcE3GcoFc Bernardo: "I think I go back to San Juan." Anita: "I know a boat you can get on." Bernardo: "When I get back there will be big cheer." Anita:"Everyone there w

Re: [AFMUG] OT: Definite Political: The Election

prettyhyped that west side story is on netflix. I literally cut through our vinyl west side story, and spun out the betamax on it. On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:05 PM Adam Moffett wrote: > They've had referendums go either direction. > > Here's everything I know about Puerto Rico: > https://www.yout