date:20201103

The first beta testers have received their UFOs and performance reports are 
emerging. While download speeds are respectable on an empty network, Starlink's 
main weakness is its highly variable latency.

Typical beta user minimum latencies are in the mid 30ies with very high 
variability. Ping tests that hover around 40 ms will go to high 60ies from one 
second to the other. Worst case latencies are well over 100 ms.

The last part is what I consider disqualifying Starlink for RDOF funds meeting 
the low-latency standard, but I guess that's what Elon has lawyers for.


Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

One report yesterday said if you are near trees you have problems.  You need 
lots of unobstructed sky for it work work well.

-Original Message- 
From: fiber...@mail.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 8:29 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

The first beta testers have received their UFOs and performance reports are 
emerging. While download speeds are respectable on an empty network, 
Starlink's main weakness is its highly variable latency.

Typical beta user minimum latencies are in the mid 30ies with very high 
variability. Ping tests that hover around 40 ms will go to high 60ies from 
one second to the other. Worst case latencies are well over 100 ms.

The last part is what I consider disqualifying Starlink for RDOF funds 
meeting the low-latency standard, but I guess that's what Elon has lawyers 
for.

Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

This is BETA!

It will only get better and they're targeting less than 20ms next year.
Averages are about 40ms now so they're well below the 100ms threshold on
average which is what matters, not the couple pings that are higher.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 9:30 AM  wrote:

> The first beta testers have received their UFOs and performance reports
> are emerging. While download speeds are respectable on an empty network,
> Starlink's main weakness is its highly variable latency.
>
> Typical beta user minimum latencies are in the mid 30ies with very high
> variability. Ping tests that hover around 40 ms will go to high 60ies from
> one second to the other. Worst case latencies are well over 100 ms.
>
> The last part is what I consider disqualifying Starlink for RDOF funds
> meeting the low-latency standard, but I guess that's what Elon has lawyers
> for.
>
>
> Jared
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Keep in mind they don't have enough satellites launched yet for full
coverage. It's moderate coverage. Their beta invites specifically say that
they can expect interruptions and periods of downtime until more satellites
are launched and reach their desired orbits.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 9:35 AM Darin Steffl  wrote:

> This is BETA!
>
> It will only get better and they're targeting less than 20ms next year.
> Averages are about 40ms now so they're well below the 100ms threshold on
> average which is what matters, not the couple pings that are higher.
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 9:30 AM  wrote:
>
>> The first beta testers have received their UFOs and performance reports
>> are emerging. While download speeds are respectable on an empty network,
>> Starlink's main weakness is its highly variable latency.
>>
>> Typical beta user minimum latencies are in the mid 30ies with very high
>> variability. Ping tests that hover around 40 ms will go to high 60ies from
>> one second to the other. Worst case latencies are well over 100 ms.
>>
>> The last part is what I consider disqualifying Starlink for RDOF funds
>> meeting the low-latency standard, but I guess that's what Elon has lawyers
>> for.
>>
>>
>> Jared
>>
>> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms


  
  
Yeah. It's beta. They have no where near their full constellation
  AND they do not have their sat-sat interlink working yet. The jury
  is still out, and it is way too early to be passing judgement yet.


bp

On 11/3/2020 7:35 AM, Darin Steffl
  wrote:


  
  This is BETA!


It will only get better and they're targeting
  less than 20ms next year. Averages are about 40ms now so
  they're well below the 100ms threshold on average which is
  what matters, not the couple pings that are higher. 
  
  
  
On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 9:30 AM
  
  wrote:

The first
  beta testers have received their UFOs and performance reports
  are emerging. While download speeds are respectable on an
  empty network, Starlink's main weakness is its highly variable
  latency.
  
  Typical beta user minimum latencies are in the mid 30ies with
  very high variability. Ping tests that hover around 40 ms will
  go to high 60ies from one second to the other. Worst case
  latencies are well over 100 ms.
  
  The last part is what I consider disqualifying Starlink for
  RDOF funds meeting the low-latency standard, but I guess
  that's what Elon has lawyers for.
  
  
  Jared
  
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Yeah, they have an AR app which you can use to check your location for 
obstructions.


Jared

> From: ch...@wbmfg.com
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> One report yesterday said if you are near trees you have problems.  You need
> lots of unobstructed sky for it work work well.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: fiber...@mail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 8:29 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> The first beta testers have received their UFOs and performance reports are
> emerging. While download speeds are respectable on an empty network,
> Starlink's main weakness is its highly variable latency.
>
> Typical beta user minimum latencies are in the mid 30ies with very high
> variability. Ping tests that hover around 40 ms will go to high 60ies from
> one second to the other. Worst case latencies are well over 100 ms.
>
> The last part is what I consider disqualifying Starlink for RDOF funds
> meeting the low-latency standard, but I guess that's what Elon has lawyers
> for.
>
>
> Jared
>
> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Space lasers won't affect end user minimum latency.
Jared

From: "Bill Prince"
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
Yeah. It's beta. They have no where near their full constellation AND they do
not have their sat-sat interlink working yet. The jury is still out, and it is
way too early to be passing judgement yet.
bp

On 11/3/2020 7:35 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
This is BETA!
It will only get better and they're targeting less than 20ms next year.
Averages are about 40ms now so they're well below the 100ms threshold on
average which is what matters, not the couple pings that are higher.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 9:30 AM mailto:fiber...@mail.com]>
wrote:The first beta testers have received their UFOs and performance reports
are emerging. While download speeds are respectable on an empty network,
Starlink's main weakness is its highly variable latency.

Typical beta user minimum latencies are in the mid 30ies with very high
variability. Ping tests that hover around 40 ms will go to high 60ies from one
second to the other. Worst case latencies are well over 100 ms.

The last part is what I consider disqualifying Starlink for RDOF funds meeting
the low-latency standard, but I guess that's what Elon has lawyers for.

Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end 
point. I think it will make a massive difference.



bp


On 11/3/2020 7:45 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:

Space lasers won't affect end user minimum latency.
  
  
Jared



From: "Bill Prince" 
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
Yeah. It's beta. They have no where near their full constellation AND they do 
not have their sat-sat interlink working yet. The jury is still out, and it is 
way too early to be passing judgement yet.
  
bp



On 11/3/2020 7:35 AM, Darin Steffl wrote:
This is BETA!
  
It will only get better and they're targeting less than 20ms next year. Averages are about 40ms now so they're well below the 100ms threshold on average which is what matters, not the couple pings that are higher.


On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 9:30 AM mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> 
wrote:The first beta testers have received their UFOs and performance reports are 
emerging. While download speeds are respectable on an empty network, Starlink's main 
weakness is its highly variable latency.

Typical beta user minimum latencies are in the mid 30ies with very high 
variability. Ping tests that hover around 40 ms will go to high 60ies from one 
second to the other. Worst case latencies are well over 100 ms.

The last part is what I consider disqualifying Starlink for RDOF funds meeting 
the low-latency standard, but I guess that's what Elon has lawyers for.


Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

> It will only get better and they're targeting less than 20ms next year.
  There have been previous reports of best case latencies of 20 ms before the 
public beta. However these have been minimums, not maximums or even averages. 
I'll take any 20 ms promise with a wee bit of salt.

  Starlink's latency claims are like the cell carriers' "up to" speed claims.


> Averages are about 40ms now so they're well below the 100ms threshold on 
> average which is what matters, not the couple pings that are higher.  
  If the RDOF cutoff is an average they may well slide under the limit. If it's 
an absolute maxiumum, then they won't. I haven't checked which it is.


Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

From: "Bill Prince" 
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end
> point. I think it will make a massive difference.
  You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't change 
facts.

  The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment which is 
currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, but nobody 
has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.

  It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to do one or 
two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and down.

Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Every technology medium can have ping spikes. Cable, DSL, and WISP's in
particular exhibit some level of jitter particularly if there's problem or
interference. Fiber is going to be the most stable if there aren't
underlying issues like weak light levels.

What I'm saying is if you can average 20ms and 1 out of 100 pings spikes
higher, it will not make a huge difference in performance. The law of
averages is what matters most. If jitter is low and packet loss near 0, it
will perform well.

The laser links between sats is absolutely crucial for them to be able to
offer low latency especially satellites that are covering areas without
ground stations. Without laser links, they wouldn't be able to offer
service to airplanes or marine vessels over the ocean because the sats
can't see land. With laser links, the data will pass between satellites to
the nearest ground station, thus providing worldwide coverage.

This network is the first and only promising LEO network that is actually
providing public beta service. It sure helps that SpaceX has figured out
reusable rockets and can launch 60 satellites per mission. This will only
increase with their new starship as well where I believe they're targeting
double that number per launch.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:52 AM  wrote:

> From: "Darin Steffl" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> > It will only get better and they're targeting less than 20ms next year.
>   There have been previous reports of best case latencies of 20 ms before
> the public beta. However these have been minimums, not maximums or even
> averages. I'll take any 20 ms promise with a wee bit of salt.
>
>   Starlink's latency claims are like the cell carriers' "up to" speed
> claims.
>
>
> > Averages are about 40ms now so they're well below the 100ms threshold on
> average which is what matters, not the couple pings that are higher.
>   If the RDOF cutoff is an average they may well slide under the limit. If
> it's an absolute maxiumum, then they won't. I haven't checked which it is.
>
>
> Jared
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

The latency figures reported so far have been measured during coverage periods.
As such adding satellites won't help. You'd actually have to improve the
tracking and routing to make a difference.
Jared

From: "Darin Steffl"
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Keep in mind they don't have enough satellites launched yet for full coverage.
It's moderate coverage. Their beta invites specifically say that they can
expect interruptions and periods of downtime until more satellites are launched
and reach their desired orbits.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 9:35 AM Darin Steffl
mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com]> wrote:
This is BETA!
It will only get better and they're targeting less than 20ms next year.
Averages are about 40ms now so they're well below the 100ms threshold on
average which is what matters, not the couple pings that are higher.

The last part is what I consider disqualifying Starlink for RDOF funds meeting
the low-latency standard, but I guess that's what Elon has lawyers for.

Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Yes, I've seen that email. You'll note that they very carefully avoid 
mentioning that the latency targets are best case minimum latencies, not 
average latency or even latency upper and lower limits.

Jared

From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Here's the email Starlink sent out a week ago, attached. 16 to 19ms latency 
target in summer of 2021 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:57 AM mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> 
wrote:From: "Bill Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end
> point. I think it will make a massive difference.
  You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't change 
facts.

  The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment which is 
currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, but nobody 
has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.

  It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to do one or 
two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and down.

Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
 
> What I'm saying is if you can average 20ms and 1 out of 100 pings spikes 
> higher, it will not make a huge difference in performance. 
> The law of averages is what matters most. If jitter is low and packet loss 
> near 0, it will perform well.
  The data from Starlink's beta users I've seen so far doesn't even come close 
to that, even if you substitute 20ms for 40ms.

  That being said, I think Starlink is great. It is equivalent to a 4G network 
in performance. Or will be, once they get the latency numbers down.

  I don't even think regular users which have no 4G coverage or any other 
options will mind the latency as is.


Jared 


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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

And what is the min/avg/max latency over typical home WiFi from router to 
device?

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:06 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Yes, I've seen that email. You'll note that they very carefully avoid 
mentioning that the latency targets are best case minimum latencies, not 
average latency or even latency upper and lower limits.

Jared

From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Here's the email Starlink sent out a week ago, attached. 16 to 19ms latency 
target in summer of 2021 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:57 AM mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> 
wrote:From: "Bill Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end 
> point. I think it will make a massive difference.
  You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't change 
facts.

  The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment which is 
currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, but nobody 
has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.

  It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to do one or 
two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and down.

Jared

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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

We won't have "facts" for at least a year. In the mean time everyone is 
blowing smoke.



bp


On 11/3/2020 7:57 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:

From: "Bill Prince" 
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end
point. I think it will make a massive difference.

   You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't change 
facts.

   The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment which is 
currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, but nobody 
has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.

   It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to do one 
or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and down.


Jared



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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

1/3/15 ms. How is that relevant?


Jared

> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2020 at 11:20 AM
> From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> And what is the min/avg/max latency over typical home WiFi from router to 
> device?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:06 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> Yes, I've seen that email. You'll note that they very carefully avoid 
> mentioning that the latency targets are best case minimum latencies, not 
> average latency or even latency upper and lower limits.
>
>
> Jared
>
>
>
>
> From: "Darin Steffl" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> Here's the email Starlink sent out a week ago, attached. 16 to 19ms latency 
> target in summer of 2021
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:57 AM mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> 
> wrote:From: "Bill Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
> To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end
> > point. I think it will make a massive difference.
>   You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't change 
> facts.
>
>   The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment which is 
> currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, but nobody 
> has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.
>
>   It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to do one 
> or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and down.
>
>
> Jared
>
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> Minnesota WiFi
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Are you claiming the speed of light in vacuum is fake news now?


Jared


> From: "Bill Prince" 
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> We won't have "facts" for at least a year. In the mean time everyone is
> blowing smoke.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 11/3/2020 7:57 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
> > From: "Bill Prince" 
> > To: af@af.afmug.com
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >> I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end
> >> point. I think it will make a massive difference.
> >You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't 
> > change facts.
> >
> >The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment which 
> > is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, but 
> > nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.
> >
> >It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to do 
> > one or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and down.
> >
> >
> > Jared
> >
>
> --
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Never underestimate how bad an average consumer can mess up speedtest
results.

The ONLY valid way is to hardwire directly to the modem or router and make
sure there are no other devices connected, and no background traffic. Then
make sure you use the Speedtest.net app on a PC or Mac instead of the web
browser.

Many of the tests we're seeing done are on WiFi which adds 1-10ms latency
to the speedtest result depending on their distance to the router and
interference.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:33 AM  wrote:

> Are you claiming the speed of light in vacuum is fake news now?
>
>
> Jared
>
>
> > From: "Bill Prince" 
> > To: af@af.afmug.com
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > We won't have "facts" for at least a year. In the mean time everyone is
> > blowing smoke.
> >
> >
> > bp
> > 
> >
> > On 11/3/2020 7:57 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
> > > From: "Bill Prince" 
> > > To: af@af.afmug.com
> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> > >> I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end
> > >> point. I think it will make a massive difference.
> > >You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't
> change facts.
> > >
> > >The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment
> which is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this,
> but nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.
> > >
> > >It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to
> do one or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and
> down.
> > >
> > >
> > > Jared
> > >
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Also, speedtests are introducing additional latency beyond the first hop.
There is some level of latency between Starlink's ground stations and the
public speedtest server. It could be 1ms or could be 80ms if they're
testing to the east coast but their gateway is near the west coast.

The only sure way to know real latency is if you can ping the starlink
gateway you're traffic goes to so you eliminate internet latency and only
measure the satellite latency.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:50 AM Darin Steffl 
wrote:

> Never underestimate how bad an average consumer can mess up speedtest
> results.
>
> The ONLY valid way is to hardwire directly to the modem or router and make
> sure there are no other devices connected, and no background traffic. Then
> make sure you use the Speedtest.net app on a PC or Mac instead of the web
> browser.
>
> Many of the tests we're seeing done are on WiFi which adds 1-10ms latency
> to the speedtest result depending on their distance to the router and
> interference.
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:33 AM  wrote:
>
>> Are you claiming the speed of light in vacuum is fake news now?
>>
>>
>> Jared
>>
>>
>> > From: "Bill Prince" 
>> > To: af@af.afmug.com
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>> >
>> > We won't have "facts" for at least a year. In the mean time everyone is
>> > blowing smoke.
>> >
>> >
>> > bp
>> > 
>> >
>> > On 11/3/2020 7:57 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
>> > > From: "Bill Prince" 
>> > > To: af@af.afmug.com
>> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>> > >> I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest
>> end
>> > >> point. I think it will make a massive difference.
>> > >You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it
>> won't change facts.
>> > >
>> > >The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment
>> which is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this,
>> but nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.
>> > >
>> > >It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser
>> to do one or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and
>> down.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Jared
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > AF mailing list
>> > AF@af.afmug.com
>> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> >
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com
> 507-634-WiFi
> Like us on Facebook 
>


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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

690/186000= 3 mS one way.  So 6 mS best case scenario time of flight.  But 
that is only if you are right next to the down link station and the 
satellite is directly overhead.  I would guess that the average slant range 
will be 3-4 X that distance.  Still 4x 6 mS is only 24 mS.  Plus processing 
delays.

But if you are having to go from satellite to satellite via laser that 
distance could go way up.  Still pretty cool.  Lots of very smart people 
being given the freedom to invent cool things.  It is fun to be alive during 
this era.

I was involved earlier this year in evaluating the purchase of a telephone 
company way out on the Aleutians.   I told them that starlink will be the 
best technology to serve the island.  Not the answer they wanted from me but 
I believe it even more now then when I said it.

-Original Message- 
From: fiber...@mail.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 9:32 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Are you claiming the speed of light in vacuum is fake news now?

Jared

From: "Bill Prince" 
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

We won't have "facts" for at least a year. In the mean time everyone is
blowing smoke.

bp

On 11/3/2020 7:57 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:
> From: "Bill Prince" 
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>> I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end
>> point. I think it will make a massive difference.
>You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't 
> change facts.

>
>The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment 
> which is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering 
> this, but nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.

>
>It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to 
> do one or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and 
> down.

>
>
> Jared
>

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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

We're obsessing over the wide area latency even though it goes to space and
back, but the in-home latency is not much less and nobody every seems to
worry about it.

Other than the occasional diehard gamer, nobody "hardwires" their devices
anymore, it's all WiFi.

Another way of saying the Starlink numbers don't sound too bad.  Hoping the
FCC will disqualify them based on latency sounds like a long shot.  Not like
Hughesnet where the latency actually does suck.

Also most customers never look at latency numbers, and if they do, they
probably don't understand that lower is better.  Oh no, my ping is only 15,
it used to be 500 with Hughesnet.


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:29 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

1/3/15 ms. How is that relevant?


Jared

> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2020 at 11:20 AM
> From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> And what is the min/avg/max latency over typical home WiFi from router to
device?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:06 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> Yes, I've seen that email. You'll note that they very carefully avoid
mentioning that the latency targets are best case minimum latencies, not
average latency or even latency upper and lower limits.
>
>
> Jared
>
>
>
>
> From: "Darin Steffl" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> Here's the email Starlink sent out a week ago, attached. 16 to 19ms 
> latency target in summer of 2021
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:57 AM 
> mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> wrote:From: "Bill 
> Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
> To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest 
> > end point. I think it will make a massive difference.
>   You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't
change facts.
>
>   The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment which
is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, but
nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.
>
>   It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to do
one or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and down.
>
>
> Jared
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>  --
>
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com[http://www.mnwifi.com/]
> 507-634-WiFi
> Like us on Facebook[http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi]-- AF 
> mailing list AF@af.afmug.com 
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.c
> om/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

If I worked at Hughesnet right now I would be looking to jump ship.

-Original Message- 
From: Ken Hohhof

Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:01 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

We're obsessing over the wide area latency even though it goes to space and
back, but the in-home latency is not much less and nobody every seems to
worry about it.

Other than the occasional diehard gamer, nobody "hardwires" their devices
anymore, it's all WiFi.

Another way of saying the Starlink numbers don't sound too bad.  Hoping the
FCC will disqualify them based on latency sounds like a long shot.  Not like
Hughesnet where the latency actually does suck.

Also most customers never look at latency numbers, and if they do, they
probably don't understand that lower is better.  Oh no, my ping is only 15,
it used to be 500 with Hughesnet.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:29 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

1/3/15 ms. How is that relevant?

Jared

Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2020 at 11:20 AM
From: "Ken Hohhof" 
To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

And what is the min/avg/max latency over typical home WiFi from router to

device?

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:06 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Yes, I've seen that email. You'll note that they very carefully avoid

mentioning that the latency targets are best case minimum latencies, not
average latency or even latency upper and lower limits.

Jared

From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Here's the email Starlink sent out a week ago, attached. 16 to 19ms
latency target in summer of 2021

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:57 AM
mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> wrote:From: "Bill
Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest
> end point. I think it will make a massive difference.
  You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't

change facts.

  The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment which

is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, but
nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.

  It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to do

one or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and down.

Jared

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Minnesota WiFi
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mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

The average consumer will no doubt mess up a speedtest. However, every consumer 
will not mess it up in exactly the same way.

With the number of reports available, I believe we have a statistically valid 
lower bound on latency over Starlink.

The reports also have in common that the variability is high, far higher than 
one could attribure to worst case wifi latency.

Adding to this are screenshots from the Starlink app which measures latency 
from the terminal and reports available bandwidth on the RF space segment. This 
app also shows very high variability in latency, with highs over 100 ms.

Jared

From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Never underestimate how bad an average consumer can mess up speedtest results.

The ONLY valid way is to hardwire directly to the modem or router and make sure 
there are no other devices connected, and no background traffic. Then make sure 
you use the Speedtest.net app on a PC or Mac instead of the web browser.

Many of the tests we're seeing done are on WiFi which adds 1-10ms latency to 
the speedtest result depending on their distance to the router and 
interference. 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:33 AM mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> 
wrote:Are you claiming the speed of light in vacuum is fake news now?

Jared

> From: "Bill Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
> To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> We won't have "facts" for at least a year. In the mean time everyone is
> blowing smoke.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 11/3/2020 7:57 AM, fiber...@mail.com[mailto:fiber...@mail.com] wrote:
> > From: "Bill Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
> > To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >> I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end
> >> point. I think it will make a massive difference.
> >    You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't 
> >change facts.
> >
> >    The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment which 
> >is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, but 
> >nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.
> >
> >    It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to do 
> >one or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and down.
> >
> >
> > Jared
> >
>
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Minnesota WiFi
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

The Starlink app measures latency to what I believe is either the first hop or 
the closest ground station.
 

Jared
 
 


From: "Darin Steffl" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Also, speedtests are introducing additional latency beyond the first hop. There 
is some level of latency between Starlink's ground stations and the public 
speedtest server. It could be 1ms or could be 80ms if they're testing to the 
east coast but their gateway is near the west coast.
 
The only sure way to know real latency is if you can ping the starlink gateway 
you're traffic goes to so you eliminate internet latency and only measure the 
satellite latency. 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:50 AM Darin Steffl 
mailto:darin.ste...@mnwifi.com]> wrote:
Never underestimate how bad an average consumer can mess up speedtest results.
 
The ONLY valid way is to hardwire directly to the modem or router and make sure 
there are no other devices connected, and no background traffic. Then make sure 
you use the Speedtest.net app on a PC or Mac instead of the web browser.
 
Many of the tests we're seeing done are on WiFi which adds 1-10ms latency to 
the speedtest result depending on their distance to the router and 
interference. 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 10:33 AM mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> 
wrote:Are you claiming the speed of light in vacuum is fake news now?


Jared


> From: "Bill Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
> To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> We won't have "facts" for at least a year. In the mean time everyone is
> blowing smoke.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 11/3/2020 7:57 AM, fiber...@mail.com[mailto:fiber...@mail.com] wrote:
> > From: "Bill Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
> > To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >> I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest end
> >> point. I think it will make a massive difference.
> >    You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't 
> >change facts.
> >
> >    The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment which 
> >is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, but 
> >nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.
> >
> >    It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to do 
> >one or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and down.
> >
> >
> > Jared
> >
>
> --
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Minnesota WiFi
www.mnwifi.com[http://www.mnwifi.com/]
507-634-WiFi
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I don't know about *anybody* who has 40 ms in-home latency. Normal in-home 
latency is measured in milliseconds. The WAN latency absolutely dwarfs that.

Starlink's latency is an order of magnitude larger than in-home latency. 
Obviously this is a matter of interest when evaluating the big picture.

Adding to that, the user can affect in-home latency, but  not so much with WAN 
latency.

These are just facts, not opinions.

Anyway, Starlink may even end up overdelivering on bandwidth if all goes well. 
However, they overpromise and underdeliver on latency. Which I think is a 
shame. It would have been much better to give realistic figures, especially as 
there is quite high variability. I guess the pressure is really high to make 
that FCC 100 ms cut.

Starlink will find many takers, no doubt. As to the FCC, I will freely admit my 
bias against Starlink. I don't think Starlink should under *any* circumstances 
get *any* subsidies. Other than that, I wish them well. From a purely 
technological standpoint I find Starlink extremely cool.


Jared


> From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> We're obsessing over the wide area latency even though it goes to space and
> back, but the in-home latency is not much less and nobody every seems to
> worry about it.
>
> Other than the occasional diehard gamer, nobody "hardwires" their devices
> anymore, it's all WiFi.
>
> Another way of saying the Starlink numbers don't sound too bad.  Hoping the
> FCC will disqualify them based on latency sounds like a long shot.  Not like
> Hughesnet where the latency actually does suck.
>
> Also most customers never look at latency numbers, and if they do, they
> probably don't understand that lower is better.  Oh no, my ping is only 15,
> it used to be 500 with Hughesnet.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:29 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> 1/3/15 ms. How is that relevant?
>
>
> Jared
>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2020 at 11:20 AM
> > From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> > To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > And what is the min/avg/max latency over typical home WiFi from router to
> device?
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:06 AM
> > To: af@af.afmug.com
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > Yes, I've seen that email. You'll note that they very carefully avoid
> mentioning that the latency targets are best case minimum latencies, not
> average latency or even latency upper and lower limits.
> >
> >
> > Jared
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: "Darin Steffl" 
> > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > Here's the email Starlink sent out a week ago, attached. 16 to 19ms
> > latency target in summer of 2021
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:57 AM
> > mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> wrote:From: "Bill
> > Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
> > To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> > >
> > > I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest
> > > end point. I think it will make a massive difference.
> >   You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't
> change facts.
> >
> >   The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment which
> is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, but
> nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.
> >
> >   It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to do
> one or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and down.
> >
> >
> > Jared
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >  --
> >
> > Darin Steffl
> > Minnesota WiFi
> > www.mnwifi.com[http://www.mnwifi.com/]
> > 507-634-WiFi
> > Like us on Facebook[http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi]-- AF
> > mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.c
> > om/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

2020-11-03 Thread Mike Hammett

I'd like to see someone run smokeping from a local server out to every hop 
along the path out to the public Internet. Set it up to 1 ping every second so 
that you get that depth of detail. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: fiber...@mail.com 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 9:29:31 AM 
Subject: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms 

The first beta testers have received their UFOs and performance reports are 
emerging. While download speeds are respectable on an empty network, Starlink's 
main weakness is its highly variable latency. 

Typical beta user minimum latencies are in the mid 30ies with very high 
variability. Ping tests that hover around 40 ms will go to high 60ies from one 
second to the other. Worst case latencies are well over 100 ms. 

The last part is what I consider disqualifying Starlink for RDOF funds meeting 
the low-latency standard, but I guess that's what Elon has lawyers for. 


Jared 

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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

2020-11-03 Thread TJ Trout

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m05abdGSOxY

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:34 AM Mike Hammett  wrote:

> I'd like to see someone run smokeping from a local server out to every hop
> along the path out to the public Internet. Set it up to 1 ping every second
> so that you get that depth of detail.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *fiber...@mail.com
> *To: *af@af.afmug.com
> *Sent: *Tuesday, November 3, 2020 9:29:31 AM
> *Subject: *[AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> The first beta testers have received their UFOs and performance reports
> are emerging. While download speeds are respectable on an empty network,
> Starlink's main weakness is its highly variable latency.
>
> Typical beta user minimum latencies are in the mid 30ies with very high
> variability. Ping tests that hover around 40 ms will go to high 60ies from
> one second to the other. Worst case latencies are well over 100 ms.
>
> The last part is what I consider disqualifying Starlink for RDOF funds
> meeting the low-latency standard, but I guess that's what Elon has lawyers
> for.
>
>
> Jared
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Just a heads up, that Youtube video is pure third party speculation and part of 
that speculation is already known to be false.


Jared
 
 
 


From: "TJ Trout" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m05abdGSOxY 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:34 AM Mike Hammett 
mailto:af...@ics-il.net]> wrote:

I'd like to see someone run smokeping from a local server out to every hop 
along the path out to the public Internet. Set it up to 1 ping every second so 
that you get that depth of detail.
 

-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions[http://www.ics-il.com/]
[https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL][https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb][https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions][https://twitter.com/ICSIL]
Midwest Internet Exchange[http://www.midwest-ix.com/]
[https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix][https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange][https://twitter.com/mdwestix]
The Brothers WISP[http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/]
[https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp][https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg]


 


From: fiber...@mail.com[mailto:fiber...@mail.com]
To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 9:29:31 AM
Subject: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

The first beta testers have received their UFOs and performance reports are 
emerging. While download speeds are respectable on an empty network, Starlink's 
main weakness is its highly variable latency.

Typical beta user minimum latencies are in the mid 30ies with very high 
variability. Ping tests that hover around 40 ms will go to high 60ies from one 
second to the other. Worst case latencies are well over 100 ms.

The last part is what I consider disqualifying Starlink for RDOF funds meeting 
the low-latency standard, but I guess that's what Elon has lawyers for.


Jared

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[AFMUG] space junk

Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff.
Check out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
planet.

http://stuffin.space
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[AFMUG] VPN Issue

I  have  a  customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being
disconnected.  I try use Ping Plotter and  PathPing to test to the VPN
end point.

Usually  I  see  a  bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a
CenturyLink router.  Not sure if that is the issue or not.

Not sure what I can do with this.  Tried explaining to her I don't own
the whole Internet.

  6   22ms 0/ 100 =  0% 0/ 100 =  0%  208.38.184.9
0/ 100 =  0%   |
  7   11ms 0/ 100 =  0% 0/ 100 =  0%  xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net 
[4.53.172.41]
0/ 100 =  0%   |
  8   18ms 0/ 100 =  0% 0/ 100 =  0%  ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net 
[4.69.207.21]
  100/ 100 =100%   |
  9  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net 
[4.68.63.102]
0/ 100 =  0%   |
 10  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  
0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net [140.222.6.223]
0/ 100 =  0%   |
 11  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com 
[69.83.99.10]
0/ 100 =  0%   |
 12  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com 
[69.82.50.155]


--

Thanks,
 Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com


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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the space 
junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below which there 
isn't enough of a radar(?) return.

All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)
 

Jared
 
 


From: "Cameron Crum" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: [AFMUG] space junk

Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff. Check 
out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our planet. 
 
http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]

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Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

I suppose having the customer complain to their VPN provider is totally out of 
the question?


Jared


> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>
> I  have  a  customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being
> disconnected.  I try use Ping Plotter and  PathPing to test to the VPN
> end point.
>
> Usually  I  see  a  bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a
> CenturyLink router.  Not sure if that is the issue or not.
>
> Not sure what I can do with this.  Tried explaining to her I don't own
> the whole Internet.
>
>   6   22ms 0/ 100 =  0% 0/ 100 =  0%  208.38.184.9
> 0/ 100 =  0%   |
>   7   11ms 0/ 100 =  0% 0/ 100 =  0%  
> xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net [4.53.172.41]
> 0/ 100 =  0%   |
>   8   18ms 0/ 100 =  0% 0/ 100 =  0%  ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net 
> [4.69.207.21]
>   100/ 100 =100%   |
>   9  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  
> verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net [4.68.63.102]
> 0/ 100 =  0%   |
>  10  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  
> 0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net [140.222.6.223]
> 0/ 100 =  0%   |
>  11  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com 
> [69.83.99.10]
> 0/ 100 =  0%   |
>  12  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com 
> [69.82.50.155]
>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com
>
>
> --
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>

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Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

2020-11-03 Thread James Howard

If it's a remote employee connecting to their workplace you can pretty much 
guarantee that the response will be "my IT people said it's my ISP, there's NO 
problems on their end".

From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

I suppose having the customer complain to their VPN provider is totally out of 
the question?


Jared


> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
> 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> 
> Subject: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>
> I have a customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being
> disconnected. I try use Ping Plotter and PathPing to test to the VPN
> end point.
>
> Usually I see a bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a
> CenturyLink router. Not sure if that is the issue or not.
>
> Not sure what I can do with this. Tried explaining to her I don't own
> the whole Internet.
>
> 6 22ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 208.38.184.9
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 7 11ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net [4.53.172.41]
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 8 18ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net [4.69.207.21]
> 100/ 100 =100% |
> 9 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net 
> [4.68.63.102]
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 10 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net 
> [140.222.6.223]
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 11 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com [69.83.99.10]
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 12 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com [69.82.50.155]
>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
> Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com
>
>
> --
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To: 
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From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com





You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list.



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Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

2020-11-03 Thread Jay Weekley


What would cause the issue?

James Howard wrote:


If it’s a remote employee connecting to their workplace you can pretty 
much guarantee that the response will be “my IT people said it’s my 
ISP, there’s NO problems on their end”………


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * fiber...@mail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:22 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

I suppose having the customer complain to their VPN provider is 
totally out of the question?



Jared


> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies"  

> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  


> Subject: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>
> I have a customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being
> disconnected. I try use Ping Plotter and PathPing to test to the VPN
> end point.
>
> Usually I see a bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a
> CenturyLink router. Not sure if that is the issue or not.
>
> Not sure what I can do with this. Tried explaining to her I don't own
> the whole Internet.
>
> 6 22ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 208.38.184.9
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 7 11ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net 
[4.53.172.41]

> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 8 18ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net 
[4.69.207.21]

> 100/ 100 =100% |
> 9 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net 
[4.68.63.102]

> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 10 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 
0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net [140.222.6.223]

> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 11 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com 
[69.83.99.10]

> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 12 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com 
[69.82.50.155]

>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
> Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com 
>
>
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allow list./






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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

What about the moon Nazis?

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the space 
junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below which there 
isn't enough of a radar(?) return.

All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)

Jared

From: "Cameron Crum" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: [AFMUG] space junk

Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff. Check 
out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our planet. 

http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com 
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Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

2020-11-03 Thread Adam Moffett

IMO, I don't think it's useful to ping all the devices in the path 
across the internet.  The return path from that device may be different 
from the return path from the destination, and the management IP that it 
responds from might be /intentionally /inaccessible to you.


If I couldn't ping one of your routers, but I can ping the destination 
beyond it, then what would you tell me?  I assume you'd tell me to shove 
off.  The only way it would prove anything is if the packet loss to the 
destination happened to match up with the packet loss to the 
intermediate hop.


If the VPN works normally and then suddenly dies and then works again 
later, then the issue is something transient.  You may have to catch it 
in the act somehow.




On 11/3/2020 1:17 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:

I  have  a  customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being
disconnected.  I try use Ping Plotter and  PathPing to test to the VPN
end point.

Usually  I  see  a  bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a
CenturyLink router.  Not sure if that is the issue or not.

Not sure what I can do with this.  Tried explaining to her I don't own
the whole Internet.

   6   22ms 0/ 100 =  0% 0/ 100 =  0%  208.38.184.9
 0/ 100 =  0%   |
   7   11ms 0/ 100 =  0% 0/ 100 =  0%  xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net 
[4.53.172.41]
 0/ 100 =  0%   |
   8   18ms 0/ 100 =  0% 0/ 100 =  0%  ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net 
[4.69.207.21]
   100/ 100 =100%   |
   9  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net 
[4.68.63.102]
 0/ 100 =  0%   |
  10  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  
0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net [140.222.6.223]
 0/ 100 =  0%   |
  11  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com 
[69.83.99.10]
 0/ 100 =  0%   |
  12  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com 
[69.82.50.155]


--

Thanks,
  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com


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Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

If their VPN using UDP?  That's like putting messages in bottles.  I had a
customer whose kid set up a VPN on their home router so all traffic from the
home was turned into UDP and routed through a gateway who knows where.  The
dad was calling about problems with his traffic, something normal like
Netflix.  I told him I wouldn't troubleshoot it until he turned off the VPN.

I don't know enough to say UDP is less reliable in this case, but in general
you use TCP if you want reliable transmission.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

I  have  a  customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being
disconnected.  I try use Ping Plotter and  PathPing to test to the VPN end
point.

Usually  I  see  a  bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a
CenturyLink router.  Not sure if that is the issue or not.

Not sure what I can do with this.  Tried explaining to her I don't own the
whole Internet.

  6   22ms 0/ 100 =  0% 0/ 100 =  0%  208.38.184.9
0/ 100 =  0%   |
  7   11ms 0/ 100 =  0% 0/ 100 =  0%
xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net [4.53.172.41]
0/ 100 =  0%   |
  8   18ms 0/ 100 =  0% 0/ 100 =  0%  ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net
[4.69.207.21]
  100/ 100 =100%   |
  9  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%
verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net [4.68.63.102]
0/ 100 =  0%   |
 10  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%
0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net [140.222.6.223]
0/ 100 =  0%   |
 11  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com
[69.83.99.10]
0/ 100 =  0%   |
 12  --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 =  0%  155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com
[69.82.50.155]


--

Thanks,
 Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com


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Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

Title: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue


James,

Yup

--
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 1:25:37 PM, you wrote:






If it’s a remote employee connecting to their workplace you can pretty much guarantee that the response will be “my IT people said it’s my ISP, there’s NO problems on their end”………
 
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
 
I suppose having the customer complain to their VPN provider is totally out of the question?


Jared


> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>
> I have a customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being
> disconnected. I try use Ping Plotter and PathPing to test to the VPN
> end point.
>
> Usually I see a bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a
> CenturyLink router. Not sure if that is the issue or not.
>
> Not sure what I can do with this. Tried explaining to her I don't own
> the whole Internet.
>
> 6 22ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 208.38.184.9
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 7 11ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net [4.53.172.41]
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 8 18ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net [4.69.207.21]
> 100/ 100 =100% |
> 9 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net [4.68.63.102]
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 10 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net [140.222.6.223]
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 11 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com [69.83.99.10]
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 12 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com [69.82.50.155]
>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
> Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>

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Total Control Panel

Login









To: ja...@litewire.net


From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com

















You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list.





 





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Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

Have you done a packet capture?
 

Jared
 
 


From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
James,

Yup

--
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.com]

--

Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 1:25:37 PM, you wrote:

 If it’s a remote employee connecting to their workplace you can pretty much 
guarantee that the response will be “my IT people said it’s my ISP, there’s NO 
problems on their end”………

From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:22 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

I suppose having the customer complain to their VPN provider is totally out of 
the question?


Jared


> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
> [mailto:m...@mailmt.com%3e]
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> [mailto:af@af.afmug.com%3e]
> Subject: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>
> I have a customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being
> disconnected. I try use Ping Plotter and PathPing to test to the VPN
> end point.
>
> Usually I see a bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a
> CenturyLink router. Not sure if that is the issue or not.
>
> Not sure what I can do with this. Tried explaining to her I don't own
> the whole Internet.
>
> 6 22ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 208.38.184.9
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 7 11ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net [4.53.172.41]
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 8 18ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net [4.69.207.21]
> 100/ 100 =100% |
> 9 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net 
> [4.68.63.102]
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 10 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net 
> [140.222.6.223]
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 11 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com [69.83.99.10]
> 0/ 100 = 0% |
> 12 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com [69.82.50.155]
>
>
> --
>
> Thanks,
> Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com[mailto:m...@mailmt.com]
>
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.com]
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>

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Total Control Panel
Login[https://asp.reflexion.net/login?domain=litewire.net]

To: 
ja...@litewire.net[https://asp.reflexion.net/address-properties?aID=242260993&domain=litewire.net]
From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com[mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com]
 

You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your allow list. 
-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]

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Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

Not yet.  May have to try that next.


--
Best regards,
 Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 2:24:23 PM, you wrote:

fmc> Have you done a packet capture?
fmc>  

fmc> Jared
fmc>  
fmc>  


fmc> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
fmc> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
fmc> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
fmc> James,

fmc> Yup

fmc> --
fmc> Best regards,
fmc> Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

fmc> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
fmc> www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.com]

fmc> --

fmc> Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 1:25:37 PM, you wrote:

fmc>  If it’s a remote employee connecting to their workplace you can
fmc> pretty much guarantee that the response will be “my IT people
fmc> said it’s my ISP, there’s NO problems on their end”………

fmc> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
fmc> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:22 PM
fmc> To: af@af.afmug.com
fmc> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

fmc> I suppose having the customer complain to their VPN provider is totally 
out of the question?


fmc> Jared


>> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
>> [mailto:m...@mailmt.com%3e]
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> [mailto:af@af.afmug.com%3e]
>> Subject: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>>
>> I have a customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being
>> disconnected. I try use Ping Plotter and PathPing to test to the VPN
>> end point.
>>
>> Usually I see a bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a
>> CenturyLink router. Not sure if that is the issue or not.
>>
>> Not sure what I can do with this. Tried explaining to her I don't own
>> the whole Internet.
>>
>> 6 22ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 208.38.184.9
>> 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 7 11ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net [4.53.172.41]
>> 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 8 18ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net [4.69.207.21]
>> 100/ 100 =100% |
>> 9 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net 
>> [4.68.63.102]
>> 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 10 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net 
>> [140.222.6.223]
>> 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 11 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com [69.83.99.10]
>> 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 12 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com [69.82.50.155]
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com[mailto:m...@mailmt.com]
>>
>> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
>> www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.com]
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>>

fmc> --
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fmc> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
fmc> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
fmc>  
fmc> 

fmc> Total Control Panel
fmc> Login[https://asp.reflexion.net/login?domain=litewire.net]

fmc> To:
fmc> 
ja...@litewire.net[https://asp.reflexion.net/address-properties?aID=242260993&domain=litewire.net]
fmc> From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com[mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com]
fmc>  

fmc> You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on
fmc> your allow list. -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
fmc> 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]


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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I have 13 mS to google.

-Original Message- 
From: fiber...@mail.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:32 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I don't know about *anybody* who has 40 ms in-home latency. Normal in-home 
latency is measured in milliseconds. The WAN latency absolutely dwarfs that.

Starlink's latency is an order of magnitude larger than in-home latency. 
Obviously this is a matter of interest when evaluating the big picture.

Adding to that, the user can affect in-home latency, but  not so much with 
WAN latency.

These are just facts, not opinions.

Anyway, Starlink may even end up overdelivering on bandwidth if all goes 
well. However, they overpromise and underdeliver on latency. Which I think 
is a shame. It would have been much better to give realistic figures, 
especially as there is quite high variability. I guess the pressure is 
really high to make that FCC 100 ms cut.

Starlink will find many takers, no doubt. As to the FCC, I will freely admit 
my bias against Starlink. I don't think Starlink should under *any* 
circumstances get *any* subsidies. Other than that, I wish them well. From a 
purely technological standpoint I find Starlink extremely cool.

Jared

From: "Ken Hohhof" 
To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

We're obsessing over the wide area latency even though it goes to space 
and

back, but the in-home latency is not much less and nobody every seems to
worry about it.

Other than the occasional diehard gamer, nobody "hardwires" their devices
anymore, it's all WiFi.

Another way of saying the Starlink numbers don't sound too bad.  Hoping 
the
FCC will disqualify them based on latency sounds like a long shot.  Not 
like

Hughesnet where the latency actually does suck.

Also most customers never look at latency numbers, and if they do, they
probably don't understand that lower is better.  Oh no, my ping is only 
15,

it used to be 500 with Hughesnet.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:29 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

1/3/15 ms. How is that relevant?

Jared

> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2020 at 11:20 AM
> From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> And what is the min/avg/max latency over typical home WiFi from router 
> to

device?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:06 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> Yes, I've seen that email. You'll note that they very carefully avoid
mentioning that the latency targets are best case minimum latencies, not
average latency or even latency upper and lower limits.
>
>
> Jared
>
>
>
>
> From: "Darin Steffl" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> Here's the email Starlink sent out a week ago, attached. 16 to 19ms
> latency target in summer of 2021
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:57 AM
> mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> wrote:From: "Bill
> Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
> To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest
> > end point. I think it will make a massive difference.
>   You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it won't
change facts.
>
>   The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment 
> which

is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, but
nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.
>
>   It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser to do
one or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and 
down.

>
>
> Jared
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>  --
>
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com[http://www.mnwifi.com/]
> 507-634-WiFi
> Like us on Facebook[http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi]-- AF
> mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.c
> om/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
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>

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-

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

I thought most VPN problems were due to NAT traversal issues, but usually that 
means they flat out don't work, not work for awhile and drop the connection.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:26 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

Not yet.  May have to try that next.


--
Best regards,
 Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 2:24:23 PM, you wrote:

fmc> Have you done a packet capture?
fmc>  

fmc> Jared
fmc>  
fmc>  


fmc> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
fmc> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
fmc> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
fmc> James,

fmc> Yup

fmc> --
fmc> Best regards,
fmc> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

fmc> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
fmc> www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.com]

fmc> --

fmc> Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 1:25:37 PM, you wrote:

fmc>  If it’s a remote employee connecting to their workplace you can 
fmc> pretty much guarantee that the response will be “my IT people said 
fmc> it’s my ISP, there’s NO problems on their end”………

fmc> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
fmc> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:22 PM
fmc> To: af@af.afmug.com
fmc> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

fmc> I suppose having the customer complain to their VPN provider is totally 
out of the question?


fmc> Jared


>> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
>> [mailto:m...@mailmt.com%3e]
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> [mailto:af@af.afmug.com%3e]
>> Subject: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>>
>> I have a customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being 
>> disconnected. I try use Ping Plotter and PathPing to test to the VPN 
>> end point.
>>
>> Usually I see a bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a 
>> CenturyLink router. Not sure if that is the issue or not.
>>
>> Not sure what I can do with this. Tried explaining to her I don't own 
>> the whole Internet.
>>
>> 6 22ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 208.38.184.9 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 7 11ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net 
>> [4.53.172.41] 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 8 18ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net 
>> [4.69.207.21] 100/ 100 =100% |
>> 9 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net 
>> [4.68.63.102] 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 10 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 
>> 0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net [140.222.6.223] 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 11 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com 
>> [69.83.99.10] 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 12 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com 
>> [69.82.50.155]
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com[mailto:m...@mailmt.com]
>>
>> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
>> www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.com]
>>
>>
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.
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Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Can you make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs?

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:43 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I have 13 mS to google.

-Original Message-
From: fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:32 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I don't know about *anybody* who has 40 ms in-home latency. Normal in-home
latency is measured in milliseconds. The WAN latency absolutely dwarfs that.

Starlink's latency is an order of magnitude larger than in-home latency. 
Obviously this is a matter of interest when evaluating the big picture.

Adding to that, the user can affect in-home latency, but  not so much with
WAN latency.

These are just facts, not opinions.

Anyway, Starlink may even end up overdelivering on bandwidth if all goes
well. However, they overpromise and underdeliver on latency. Which I think
is a shame. It would have been much better to give realistic figures,
especially as there is quite high variability. I guess the pressure is
really high to make that FCC 100 ms cut.

Starlink will find many takers, no doubt. As to the FCC, I will freely admit
my bias against Starlink. I don't think Starlink should under *any*
circumstances get *any* subsidies. Other than that, I wish them well. From a
purely technological standpoint I find Starlink extremely cool.


Jared


> From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> We're obsessing over the wide area latency even though it goes to 
> space and back, but the in-home latency is not much less and nobody 
> every seems to worry about it.
>
> Other than the occasional diehard gamer, nobody "hardwires" their 
> devices anymore, it's all WiFi.
>
> Another way of saying the Starlink numbers don't sound too bad.  
> Hoping the FCC will disqualify them based on latency sounds like a 
> long shot.  Not like Hughesnet where the latency actually does suck.
>
> Also most customers never look at latency numbers, and if they do, 
> they probably don't understand that lower is better.  Oh no, my ping 
> is only 15, it used to be 500 with Hughesnet.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:29 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> 1/3/15 ms. How is that relevant?
>
>
> Jared
>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2020 at 11:20 AM
> > From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> > To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > And what is the min/avg/max latency over typical home WiFi from 
> > router to
> device?
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:06 AM
> > To: af@af.afmug.com
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > Yes, I've seen that email. You'll note that they very carefully 
> > avoid
> mentioning that the latency targets are best case minimum latencies, 
> not average latency or even latency upper and lower limits.
> >
> >
> > Jared
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: "Darin Steffl" 
> > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > Here's the email Starlink sent out a week ago, attached. 16 to 19ms 
> > latency target in summer of 2021
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:57 AM
> > mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> wrote:From: "Bill 
> > Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
> > To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> > >
> > > I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest 
> > > end point. I think it will make a massive difference.
> >   You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it 
> > won't
> change facts.
> >
> >   The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment 
> > which
> is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this, 
> but nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.
> >
> >   It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser 
> > to do
> one or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and 
> down.
> >
> >
> > Jared
> >
> > --
> > AF mailing list
> > AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >  --
> >
> > Darin Steffl
> > Minnesota WiFi
> > www.mnwifi.com[http://www.mnwifi.com/]
> > 507-634-WiFi
> > Like us on Facebook[http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi]-- AF 
> > mailing list AF@af.afmug.com 
> > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug
> > .c om/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
> >
> > --
> > AF

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

If I have enough tachyons.

-Original Message- 
From: Ken Hohhof

Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:25 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Can you make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs?

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:43 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I have 13 mS to google.

-Original Message-
From: fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:32 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

I don't know about *anybody* who has 40 ms in-home latency. Normal in-home
latency is measured in milliseconds. The WAN latency absolutely dwarfs that.

Starlink's latency is an order of magnitude larger than in-home latency.
Obviously this is a matter of interest when evaluating the big picture.

Adding to that, the user can affect in-home latency, but  not so much with
WAN latency.

These are just facts, not opinions.

Anyway, Starlink may even end up overdelivering on bandwidth if all goes
well. However, they overpromise and underdeliver on latency. Which I think
is a shame. It would have been much better to give realistic figures,
especially as there is quite high variability. I guess the pressure is
really high to make that FCC 100 ms cut.

Starlink will find many takers, no doubt. As to the FCC, I will freely admit
my bias against Starlink. I don't think Starlink should under *any*
circumstances get *any* subsidies. Other than that, I wish them well. From a
purely technological standpoint I find Starlink extremely cool.

Jared

From: "Ken Hohhof" 
To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

We're obsessing over the wide area latency even though it goes to
space and back, but the in-home latency is not much less and nobody
every seems to worry about it.

Other than the occasional diehard gamer, nobody "hardwires" their
devices anymore, it's all WiFi.

Another way of saying the Starlink numbers don't sound too bad.
Hoping the FCC will disqualify them based on latency sounds like a
long shot.  Not like Hughesnet where the latency actually does suck.

Also most customers never look at latency numbers, and if they do,
they probably don't understand that lower is better.  Oh no, my ping
is only 15, it used to be 500 with Hughesnet.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:29 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

1/3/15 ms. How is that relevant?

Jared

> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2020 at 11:20 AM
> From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> And what is the min/avg/max latency over typical home WiFi from
> router to
device?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:06 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> Yes, I've seen that email. You'll note that they very carefully
> avoid
mentioning that the latency targets are best case minimum latencies,
not average latency or even latency upper and lower limits.
>
>
> Jared
>
>
>
>
> From: "Darin Steffl" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> Here's the email Starlink sent out a week ago, attached. 16 to 19ms
> latency target in summer of 2021
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:57 AM
> mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> wrote:From: "Bill
> Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
> To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest
> > end point. I think it will make a massive difference.
>   You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it
> won't
change facts.
>
>   The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment
> which
is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this,
but nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.
>
>   It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser
> to do
one or two hops when they have to pay a 20-40 ms penalty to go up and
down.
>
>
> Jared
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>  --
>
> Darin Steffl
> Minnesota WiFi
> www.mnwifi.com[http://www.mnwifi.com/]
> 507-634-WiFi
> Like us on Facebook[http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi]-- AF
> mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug
> .c om/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>
> --
> AF

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

You guys just crossed the Star Trek/Star Wars streams. The universe will
now explode.


On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:29 PM  wrote:

> If I have enough tachyons.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ken Hohhof
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:25 PM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> Can you make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:43 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> I have 13 mS to google.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: fiber...@mail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:32 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>
> I don't know about *anybody* who has 40 ms in-home latency. Normal in-home
> latency is measured in milliseconds. The WAN latency absolutely dwarfs
> that.
>
> Starlink's latency is an order of magnitude larger than in-home latency.
> Obviously this is a matter of interest when evaluating the big picture.
>
> Adding to that, the user can affect in-home latency, but  not so much with
> WAN latency.
>
> These are just facts, not opinions.
>
> Anyway, Starlink may even end up overdelivering on bandwidth if all goes
> well. However, they overpromise and underdeliver on latency. Which I think
> is a shame. It would have been much better to give realistic figures,
> especially as there is quite high variability. I guess the pressure is
> really high to make that FCC 100 ms cut.
>
> Starlink will find many takers, no doubt. As to the FCC, I will freely
> admit
> my bias against Starlink. I don't think Starlink should under *any*
> circumstances get *any* subsidies. Other than that, I wish them well. From
> a
> purely technological standpoint I find Starlink extremely cool.
>
>
> Jared
>
>
> > From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> > To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > We're obsessing over the wide area latency even though it goes to
> > space and back, but the in-home latency is not much less and nobody
> > every seems to worry about it.
> >
> > Other than the occasional diehard gamer, nobody "hardwires" their
> > devices anymore, it's all WiFi.
> >
> > Another way of saying the Starlink numbers don't sound too bad.
> > Hoping the FCC will disqualify them based on latency sounds like a
> > long shot.  Not like Hughesnet where the latency actually does suck.
> >
> > Also most customers never look at latency numbers, and if they do,
> > they probably don't understand that lower is better.  Oh no, my ping
> > is only 15, it used to be 500 with Hughesnet.
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:29 AM
> > To: af@af.afmug.com
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> >
> > 1/3/15 ms. How is that relevant?
> >
> >
> > Jared
> >
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2020 at 11:20 AM
> > > From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> > > To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> > >
> > > And what is the min/avg/max latency over typical home WiFi from
> > > router to
> > device?
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:06 AM
> > > To: af@af.afmug.com
> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> > >
> > > Yes, I've seen that email. You'll note that they very carefully
> > > avoid
> > mentioning that the latency targets are best case minimum latencies,
> > not average latency or even latency upper and lower limits.
> > >
> > >
> > > Jared
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "Darin Steffl" 
> > > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> > >
> > > Here's the email Starlink sent out a week ago, attached. 16 to 19ms
> > > latency target in summer of 2021
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:57 AM
> > > mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> wrote:From: "Bill
> > > Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
> > > To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
> > > >
> > > > I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest
> > > > end point. I think it will make a massive difference.
> > >   You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it
> > > won't
> > change facts.
> > >
> > >   The minimum end user latency is dominated by the RF space segment
> > > which
> > is currently averaging 40 ms. There are promises about lowering this,
> > but nobody has ever claimed any numbers lower than 20 ms.
> > >
> > >   It means jack all to the end user if Starlink uses a space laser
>

Re: [AFMUG] space junk

2020-11-03 Thread Brian Webster

When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time. 

Thank you,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com


-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

What about the moon Nazis?

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the
space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below
which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.

All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)
 

Jared
 
 


From: "Cameron Crum" 
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Subject: [AFMUG] space junk

Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff. Check
out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
planet. 
 
http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms

Hate it when that happens.
--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 12:42 PM Cameron Crum  wrote:

> You guys just crossed the Star Trek/Star Wars streams. The universe will
> now explode.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 2:29 PM  wrote:
>
>> If I have enough tachyons.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Ken Hohhof
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:25 PM
>> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>>
>> Can you make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs?
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:43 PM
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>>
>> I have 13 mS to google.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: fiber...@mail.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:32 AM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>>
>> I don't know about *anybody* who has 40 ms in-home latency. Normal in-home
>> latency is measured in milliseconds. The WAN latency absolutely dwarfs
>> that.
>>
>> Starlink's latency is an order of magnitude larger than in-home latency.
>> Obviously this is a matter of interest when evaluating the big picture.
>>
>> Adding to that, the user can affect in-home latency, but  not so much with
>> WAN latency.
>>
>> These are just facts, not opinions.
>>
>> Anyway, Starlink may even end up overdelivering on bandwidth if all goes
>> well. However, they overpromise and underdeliver on latency. Which I think
>> is a shame. It would have been much better to give realistic figures,
>> especially as there is quite high variability. I guess the pressure is
>> really high to make that FCC 100 ms cut.
>>
>> Starlink will find many takers, no doubt. As to the FCC, I will freely
>> admit
>> my bias against Starlink. I don't think Starlink should under *any*
>> circumstances get *any* subsidies. Other than that, I wish them well.
>> From a
>> purely technological standpoint I find Starlink extremely cool.
>>
>>
>> Jared
>>
>>
>> > From: "Ken Hohhof" 
>> > To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>> >
>> > We're obsessing over the wide area latency even though it goes to
>> > space and back, but the in-home latency is not much less and nobody
>> > every seems to worry about it.
>> >
>> > Other than the occasional diehard gamer, nobody "hardwires" their
>> > devices anymore, it's all WiFi.
>> >
>> > Another way of saying the Starlink numbers don't sound too bad.
>> > Hoping the FCC will disqualify them based on latency sounds like a
>> > long shot.  Not like Hughesnet where the latency actually does suck.
>> >
>> > Also most customers never look at latency numbers, and if they do,
>> > they probably don't understand that lower is better.  Oh no, my ping
>> > is only 15, it used to be 500 with Hughesnet.
>> >
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:29 AM
>> > To: af@af.afmug.com
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>> >
>> > 1/3/15 ms. How is that relevant?
>> >
>> >
>> > Jared
>> >
>> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2020 at 11:20 AM
>> > > From: "Ken Hohhof" 
>> > > To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" 
>> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>> > >
>> > > And what is the min/avg/max latency over typical home WiFi from
>> > > router to
>> > device?
>> > >
>> > > -Original Message-
>> > > From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
>> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 10:06 AM
>> > > To: af@af.afmug.com
>> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>> > >
>> > > Yes, I've seen that email. You'll note that they very carefully
>> > > avoid
>> > mentioning that the latency targets are best case minimum latencies,
>> > not average latency or even latency upper and lower limits.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Jared
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > From: "Darin Steffl" 
>> > > To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>> > >
>> > > Here's the email Starlink sent out a week ago, attached. 16 to 19ms
>> > > latency target in summer of 2021
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:57 AM
>> > > mailto:fiber...@mail.com]> wrote:From: "Bill
>> > > Prince" mailto:part15...@gmail.com]>
>> > > To: af@af.afmug.com[mailto:af@af.afmug.com]
>> > > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Starlink latency highly variable - up to 120 ms
>> > > >
>> > > > I call that BS. It means they can route the traffic to the nearest
>> > > > end point. I think it will make a massive difference.
>> > >   You can call BS all day long til you are blue in the face, it
>> > > won't
>> > change facts.
>> > >
>> > >   The minimum end user latency is dominate

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

It could also be that the have the timeout too tight, and you're seeing a
side effect of variable latency. Like the others, you may want to get a
packet capture. Although that may not tell you much. Perhaps their IT
department can give you an error code or explanation?
--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 12:24 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> I thought most VPN problems were due to NAT traversal issues, but usually
> that means they flat out don't work, not work for awhile and drop the
> connection.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:26 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>
> Not yet.  May have to try that next.
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> www.Myakka.com
>
> --
>
> Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 2:24:23 PM, you wrote:
>
> fmc> Have you done a packet capture?
> fmc>
>
> fmc> Jared
> fmc>
> fmc>
>
>
> fmc> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
> fmc> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> fmc> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
> fmc> James,
>
> fmc> Yup
>
> fmc> --
> fmc> Best regards,
> fmc> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> fmc> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> fmc> www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.com]
>
> fmc> --
>
> fmc> Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 1:25:37 PM, you wrote:
>
> fmc>  If it’s a remote employee connecting to their workplace you can
> fmc> pretty much guarantee that the response will be “my IT people said
> fmc> it’s my ISP, there’s NO problems on their end”………
>
> fmc> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> fmc> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:22 PM
> fmc> To: af@af.afmug.com
> fmc> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>
> fmc> I suppose having the customer complain to their VPN provider is
> totally out of the question?
>
>
> fmc> Jared
>
>
> >> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies"
> >> [mailto:m...@mailmt.com%3e]
> >> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
> >> [mailto:af@af.afmug.com%3e]
> >> Subject: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
> >>
> >> I have a customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being
> >> disconnected. I try use Ping Plotter and PathPing to test to the VPN
> >> end point.
> >>
> >> Usually I see a bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a
> >> CenturyLink router. Not sure if that is the issue or not.
> >>
> >> Not sure what I can do with this. Tried explaining to her I don't own
> >> the whole Internet.
> >>
> >> 6 22ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 208.38.184.9 0/ 100 = 0% |
> >> 7 11ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net
> >> [4.53.172.41] 0/ 100 = 0% |
> >> 8 18ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net
> >> [4.69.207.21] 100/ 100 =100% |
> >> 9 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net
> >> [4.68.63.102] 0/ 100 = 0% |
> >> 10 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0%
> >> 0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net [140.222.6.223] 0/ 100 = 0% |
> >> 11 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com
> >> [69.83.99.10] 0/ 100 = 0% |
> >> 12 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com
> >> [69.82.50.155]
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com[mailto:m...@mailmt.com]
> >>
> >> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
> >> www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.com]
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> AF mailing list
> >> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.
> >> com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
> >>
>
> fmc> --
> fmc> AF mailing list
> fmc> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
> fmc> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> fmc>
> fmc> 
>
> fmc> Total Control Panel
> fmc> Login[https://asp.reflexion.net/login?domain=litewire.net]
>
> fmc> To:
> fmc> ja...@litewire.net[https://asp.reflexion.net/address-properties?aID
> fmc> =242260993&domain=litewire.net]
> fmc> From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com[mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com]
> fmc>
>
> fmc> You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your
> fmc> allow list. -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
> fmc> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmu
> fmc> g.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering
tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just
goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere since we
know where it all is

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster 
wrote:

> When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time.
>
> Thank you,
> Brian Webster
> www.wirelessmapping.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>
> What about the moon Nazis?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>
> I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the
> space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below
> which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.
>
> All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)
>
>
> Jared
>
>
>
>
> From: "Cameron Crum" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: [AFMUG] space junk
>
> Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff.
> Check
> out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
> planet.
>
> http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
>
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
> lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
> 
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

It sounds simple when you put it like that.


On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:29 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering
> tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just
> goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere since we
> know where it all is
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster 
> wrote:
>
>> When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Brian Webster
>> www.wirelessmapping.com
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
>> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>>
>> What about the moon Nazis?
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>>
>> I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the
>> space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below
>> which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.
>>
>> All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)
>>
>>
>> Jared
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Cameron Crum" 
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> Subject: [AFMUG] space junk
>>
>> Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff.
>> Check
>> out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
>> planet.
>>
>> http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
>>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
>> lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>> 
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

good luck on that. I hate when the "IT" comes back, its always something
thats patently false like the internet connection doesnt have enough
bandwidth. its like seriously, how much overhead does your vpn have that it
requires a notable amount of bandwidth to stay up

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:28 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

>
> It could also be that the have the timeout too tight, and you're seeing a
> side effect of variable latency. Like the others, you may want to get a
> packet capture. Although that may not tell you much. Perhaps their IT
> department can give you an error code or explanation?
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 12:24 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
>> I thought most VPN problems were due to NAT traversal issues, but usually
>> that means they flat out don't work, not work for awhile and drop the
>> connection.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
>> Technologies
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:26 PM
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>>
>> Not yet.  May have to try that next.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>>  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com
>>
>> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
>> www.Myakka.com
>>
>> --
>>
>> Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 2:24:23 PM, you wrote:
>>
>> fmc> Have you done a packet capture?
>> fmc>
>>
>> fmc> Jared
>> fmc>
>> fmc>
>>
>>
>> fmc> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
>> fmc> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> fmc> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>> fmc> James,
>>
>> fmc> Yup
>>
>> fmc> --
>> fmc> Best regards,
>> fmc> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com
>>
>> fmc> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
>> fmc> www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.com]
>>
>> fmc> --
>>
>> fmc> Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 1:25:37 PM, you wrote:
>>
>> fmc>  If it’s a remote employee connecting to their workplace you can
>> fmc> pretty much guarantee that the response will be “my IT people said
>> fmc> it’s my ISP, there’s NO problems on their end”………
>>
>> fmc> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
>> fmc> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:22 PM
>> fmc> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> fmc> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>>
>> fmc> I suppose having the customer complain to their VPN provider is
>> totally out of the question?
>>
>>
>> fmc> Jared
>>
>>
>> >> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies"
>> >> [mailto:m...@mailmt.com%3e]
>> >> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
>> >> [mailto:af@af.afmug.com%3e]
>> >> Subject: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>> >>
>> >> I have a customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being
>> >> disconnected. I try use Ping Plotter and PathPing to test to the VPN
>> >> end point.
>> >>
>> >> Usually I see a bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a
>> >> CenturyLink router. Not sure if that is the issue or not.
>> >>
>> >> Not sure what I can do with this. Tried explaining to her I don't own
>> >> the whole Internet.
>> >>
>> >> 6 22ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 208.38.184.9 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> >> 7 11ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net
>> >> [4.53.172.41] 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> >> 8 18ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net
>> >> [4.69.207.21] 100/ 100 =100% |
>> >> 9 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net
>> >> [4.68.63.102] 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> >> 10 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0%
>> >> 0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net [140.222.6.223] 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> >> 11 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com
>> >> [69.83.99.10] 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> >> 12 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com
>> >> [69.82.50.155]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com[mailto:m...@mailmt.com]
>> >>
>> >> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
>> >> www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.com]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> AF mailing list
>> >> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
>> >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.
>> >> com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>> >>
>>
>> fmc> --
>> fmc> AF mailing list
>> fmc> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
>> fmc> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> fmc>
>> fmc> 
>>
>> fmc> Total Control Panel
>> fmc> Login[https://asp.reflexion.net/login?domain=litewire.net]
>>
>> fmc> To:
>> fmc> ja...@litewire.net[https://asp.reflexion.net/address-properties?aID
>> fmc> =242260993&domain=litewire.net]
>> fmc> From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com[mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com]
>> fmc>
>>
>> fmc> You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your
>> fmc> allow list. -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
>> fmc> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmu
>> fmc> g.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmu

Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

Title: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue


Bill,

Unfortunately explaining any of this to her or even the IT people will be futile.

 
--
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 4:27:39 PM, you wrote:






It could also be that the have the timeout too tight, and you're seeing a side effect of variable latency. Like the others, you may want to get a packet capture. Although that may not tell you much. Perhaps their IT department can give you an error code or explanation? 
--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 12:24 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:




I thought most VPN problems were due to NAT traversal issues, but usually that means they flat out don't work, not work for awhile and drop the connection.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:26 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

Not yet.  May have to try that next.


--
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.Myakka.com

--

Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 2:24:23 PM, you wrote:

fmc> Have you done a packet capture?
fmc>  

fmc> Jared
fmc>  
fmc>  


fmc> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
fmc> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
fmc> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
fmc> James,

fmc> Yup

fmc> --
fmc> Best regards,
fmc> Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

fmc> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
fmc> www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.com]

fmc> --

fmc> Tuesday, November 3, 2020, 1:25:37 PM, you wrote:

fmc>  If it’s a remote employee connecting to their workplace you can 
fmc> pretty much guarantee that the response will be “my IT people said 
fmc> it’s my ISP, there’s NO problems on their end”………

fmc> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
fmc> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:22 PM
fmc> To: af@af.afmug.com
fmc> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

fmc> I suppose having the customer complain to their VPN provider is totally out of the question?


fmc> Jared


>> From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
>> [mailto:m...@mailmt.com%3e]
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> [mailto:af@af.afmug.com%3e]
>> Subject: [AFMUG] VPN Issue
>>
>> I have a customer that calls on a regular basis about her VPN being 
>> disconnected. I try use Ping Plotter and PathPing to test to the VPN 
>> end point.
>>
>> Usually I see a bunch of dropped packets at 4.69.207.21 which is a 
>> CenturyLink router. Not sure if that is the issue or not.
>>
>> Not sure what I can do with this. Tried explaining to her I don't own 
>> the whole Internet.
>>
>> 6 22ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 208.38.184.9 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 7 11ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% xe-10-2-2.bar1.tampa1.level3.net 
>> [4.53.172.41] 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 8 18ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae-1-51.ear2.miami1.level3.net 
>> [4.69.207.21] 100/ 100 =100% |
>> 9 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% verizon-level3-miami1.level3.net 
>> [4.68.63.102] 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 10 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 
>> 0.af0.tulyok13-mse01-aa-ie1.alter.net [140.222.6.223] 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 11 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 10.sub-69-83-99.myvzw.com 
>> [69.83.99.10] 0/ 100 = 0% |
>> 12 --- 100/ 100 =100% 0/ 100 = 0% 155.sub-69-82-50.myvzw.com 
>> [69.82.50.155]
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com[mailto:m...@mailmt.com]
>>
>> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
>> www.Myakka.com[http://www.Myakka.com]
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.
>> com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>>

fmc> --
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fmc> AF@af.afmug.com[mailto:AF@af.afmug.com]
fmc> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
fmc>  
fmc> 

fmc> Total Control Panel
fmc> Login[https://asp.reflexion.net/login?domain=litewire.net]

fmc> To:
fmc> ja...@litewire.net[https://asp.reflexion.net/address-properties?aID
fmc> =242260993&domain=litewire.net]
fmc> From: af-boun...@af.afmug.com[mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com]
fmc>  

fmc> You received this message because the domain afmug.com is on your 
fmc> allow list. -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com 
fmc> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmu
fmc> g.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]


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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

2020-11-03 Thread Robert

The reward for the first practical application of orbital rendezvous was 
the position of second man on the moon.


On 11/3/20 1:31 PM, Cameron Crum wrote:

It sounds simple when you put it like that.


On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:29 PM Steve Jones > wrote:


is there any accountability for debris left in space? like
littering tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space
roomba that just goes and pings each item out of orbit back into
the atmosphere since we know where it all is

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster
mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com>> wrote:

When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time.

Thank you,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com 


-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

What about the moon Nazis?

-Original Message-
From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of
fiber...@mail.com 
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even
track all the
space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of
inches(?), below
which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.

All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)


Jared




From: "Cameron Crum" mailto:cc...@murcevilo.com>>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: [AFMUG] space junk

Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in
space stuff. Check
out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit
around our
planet.

http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com


http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]



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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

We should appoint Steve as space junk zar (or would it be Space Junk Zar?).
That could be a fun job with no frustarations whatever.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 1:29 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering
> tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just
> goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere since we
> know where it all is
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster 
> wrote:
>
>> When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Brian Webster
>> www.wirelessmapping.com
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
>> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>>
>> What about the moon Nazis?
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>>
>> I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the
>> space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below
>> which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.
>>
>> All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)
>>
>>
>> Jared
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Cameron Crum" 
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> Subject: [AFMUG] space junk
>>
>> Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff.
>> Check
>> out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
>> planet.
>>
>> http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
>>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
>> lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>> 
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

Should be Tzar...you know, a lot of that junk is probably russian and we
don't want to offend them.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 4:05 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> We should appoint Steve as space junk zar (or would it be Space Junk
> Zar?). That could be a fun job with no frustarations whatever.
>
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 1:29 PM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering
>> tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just
>> goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere since we
>> know where it all is
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Brian Webster
>>> www.wirelessmapping.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
>>> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>>>
>>> What about the moon Nazis?
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
>>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>>>
>>> I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the
>>> space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below
>>> which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.
>>>
>>> All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)
>>>
>>>
>>> Jared
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "Cameron Crum" 
>>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>>> Subject: [AFMUG] space junk
>>>
>>> Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff.
>>> Check
>>> out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
>>> planet.
>>>
>>> http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
>>> lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>>> 
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
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Re: [AFMUG] VPN Issue

2020-11-03 Thread Seth Mattinen


On 11/3/20 1:36 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:

Bill,

Unfortunately explaining any of this to her or even the IT people will 
be futile.



With stuff going to "the cloud" the average amount of clue some random 
company's IT person has is often low, since all they really need to know 
now is entry level helpdesk stuff. For the rest they're just calling 
people and opening tickets. They don't need to know how to interpret a 
traceroute properly, or the difference between TCP and UDP, or that 
peering and transport and transit are different things.


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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

2020-11-03 Thread Zach Underwood

When you start looking at what space junk is up there vast amount of it
will be traced back to the government of USA and Russia/USSR

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 4:29 PM Steve Jones  wrote:

> is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering
> tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just
> goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere since we
> know where it all is
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster 
> wrote:
>
>> When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Brian Webster
>> www.wirelessmapping.com
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
>> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>>
>> What about the moon Nazis?
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>>
>> I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the
>> space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below
>> which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.
>>
>> All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)
>>
>>
>> Jared
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Cameron Crum" 
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> Subject: [AFMUG] space junk
>>
>> Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff.
>> Check
>> out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
>> planet.
>>
>> http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
>>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
>> lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>> 
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
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>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

2020-11-03 Thread Adam Moffett

I think the best practice right now is to save enough propellant to 
boost your old satellite into a parking orbit.  The idea is we spent a 
grillion dollars putting it up there, and someday we might harvest old 
satellites for material rather than launching new stuff for a grillion 
more.  You'd have to burn propellant to de-orbit too, so if you're going 
to keep extra gas on the ship then you might as well use it to park instead.


If Elon Musk wants to waste his own grillions by letting them burn up in 
the atmosphere, then he can do that.


On 11/3/2020 4:28 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering 
tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that 
just goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere 
since we know where it all is


On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster > wrote:


When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time.

Thank you,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com 


-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

What about the moon Nazis?

-Original Message-
From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track
all the
space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?),
below
which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.

All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)


Jared




From: "Cameron Crum" mailto:cc...@murcevilo.com>>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: [AFMUG] space junk

Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space
stuff. Check
out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
planet.

http://stuffin.space--  AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]



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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

2020-11-03 Thread Robert

I think it's about how much delta v required to de-orbit vs. park.   For 
LEO sats the DV is smaller to deorbit vs. park.  For sync sats, it's 
just about getting it above the very valuable sync orbit.  So a small 
increase in orbit is not much fuel.   For lower than sync, it's a lot of 
unused space and a long way down to deorbit so they usually stay where 
they are.


On 11/3/20 2:33 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:


I think the best practice right now is to save enough propellant to 
boost your old satellite into a parking orbit. The idea is we spent a 
grillion dollars putting it up there, and someday we might harvest old 
satellites for material rather than launching new stuff for a grillion 
more.  You'd have to burn propellant to de-orbit too, so if you're 
going to keep extra gas on the ship then you might as well use it to 
park instead.


If Elon Musk wants to waste his own grillions by letting them burn up 
in the atmosphere, then he can do that.


On 11/3/2020 4:28 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering 
tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that 
just goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere 
since we know where it all is


On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster 
mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com>> wrote:


When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time.

Thank you,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com 


-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com
] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

What about the moon Nazis?

-Original Message-
From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track
all the
space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of
inches(?), below
which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.

All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)


Jared




From: "Cameron Crum" mailto:cc...@murcevilo.com>>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: [AFMUG] space junk

Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space
stuff. Check
out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
planet.

http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com

http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]



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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

2020-11-03 Thread Zach Underwood

Here are some of the variables that will affect deorbit Altitude, mass,
speed and surface area. At the lower orbit aka 500km where starlink is
there is still some atmosphere so they are are getting air resistance and
are slowing down. As they slow down they get more air resistance until they
fully deorbit. If I remember right the starlink satellites need boosting
nearly  constantly or they will deorbit and will deorbit in less than 5
years without the active management. It has been also said the satellites
have been designed so completely break up during the orbit so that nothing
reaches the ground.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 5:41 PM Robert  wrote:

> I think it's about how much delta v required to de-orbit vs. park.   For
> LEO sats the DV is smaller to deorbit vs. park.  For sync sats, it's just
> about getting it above the very valuable sync orbit.  So a small increase
> in orbit is not much fuel.   For lower than sync, it's a lot of unused
> space and a long way down to deorbit so they usually stay where they are.
>
> On 11/3/20 2:33 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
>
> I think the best practice right now is to save enough propellant to boost
> your old satellite into a parking orbit.  The idea is we spent a grillion
> dollars putting it up there, and someday we might harvest old satellites
> for material rather than launching new stuff for a grillion more.  You'd
> have to burn propellant to de-orbit too, so if you're going to keep extra
> gas on the ship then you might as well use it to park instead.
>
> If Elon Musk wants to waste his own grillions by letting them burn up in
> the atmosphere, then he can do that.
> On 11/3/2020 4:28 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering
> tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just
> goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere since we
> know where it all is
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster 
> wrote:
>
>> When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Brian Webster
>> www.wirelessmapping.com
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
>> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>>
>> What about the moon Nazis?
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>>
>> I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the
>> space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below
>> which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.
>>
>> All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)
>>
>>
>> Jared
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Cameron Crum" 
>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>> Subject: [AFMUG] space junk
>>
>> Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff.
>> Check
>> out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
>> planet.
>>
>> http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
>>
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
>> lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>> 
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
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>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

https://www.space.com/spacex-starship-space-junk-cleanup

From: AF  On Behalf Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

Here are some of the variables that will affect deorbit Altitude, mass, speed 
and surface area. At the lower orbit aka 500km where starlink is there is still 
some atmosphere so they are are getting air resistance and are slowing down. As 
they slow down they get more air resistance until they fully deorbit. If I 
remember right the starlink satellites need boosting nearly  constantly or they 
will deorbit and will deorbit in less than 5 years without the active 
management. It has been also said the satellites have been designed so 
completely break up during the orbit so that nothing reaches the ground. 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 5:41 PM Robert mailto:i...@avantwireless.com> > wrote:

I think it's about how much delta v required to de-orbit vs. park.   For LEO 
sats the DV is smaller to deorbit vs. park.  For sync sats, it's just about 
getting it above the very valuable sync orbit.  So a small increase in orbit is 
not much fuel.   For lower than sync, it's a lot of unused space and a long way 
down to deorbit so they usually stay where they are.

On 11/3/20 2:33 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

I think the best practice right now is to save enough propellant to boost your 
old satellite into a parking orbit.  The idea is we spent a grillion dollars 
putting it up there, and someday we might harvest old satellites for material 
rather than launching new stuff for a grillion more.  You'd have to burn 
propellant to de-orbit too, so if you're going to keep extra gas on the ship 
then you might as well use it to park instead.

If Elon Musk wants to waste his own grillions by letting them burn up in the 
atmosphere, then he can do that.

On 11/3/2020 4:28 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering tickets? 
why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just goes and pings 
each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere since we know where it all is

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com> > wrote:

When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time. 

Thank you,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com  

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com  ] On 
Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

What about the moon Nazis?

-Original Message-
From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of fiber...@mail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the
space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below
which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.

All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)

Jared

From: "Cameron Crum" mailto:cc...@murcevilo.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: [AFMUG] space junk

Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff. Check
out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
planet. 

http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com  
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai 

lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]

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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

Thinking about grillions now. We BBQ's burgers last night, and I sliced
some onion to char on the side. So is a BBQ-charred onion called a grillion?
--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:12 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> https://www.space.com/spacex-starship-space-junk-cleanup
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Zach Underwood
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:01 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>
>
>
> Here are some of the variables that will affect deorbit Altitude, mass,
> speed and surface area. At the lower orbit aka 500km where starlink is
> there is still some atmosphere so they are are getting air resistance and
> are slowing down. As they slow down they get more air resistance until they
> fully deorbit. If I remember right the starlink satellites need boosting
> nearly  constantly or they will deorbit and will deorbit in less than 5
> years without the active management. It has been also said the satellites
> have been designed so completely break up during the orbit so that nothing
> reaches the ground.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 5:41 PM Robert  wrote:
>
> I think it's about how much delta v required to de-orbit vs. park.   For
> LEO sats the DV is smaller to deorbit vs. park.  For sync sats, it's just
> about getting it above the very valuable sync orbit.  So a small increase
> in orbit is not much fuel.   For lower than sync, it's a lot of unused
> space and a long way down to deorbit so they usually stay where they are.
>
> On 11/3/20 2:33 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
>
> I think the best practice right now is to save enough propellant to boost
> your old satellite into a parking orbit.  The idea is we spent a grillion
> dollars putting it up there, and someday we might harvest old satellites
> for material rather than launching new stuff for a grillion more.  You'd
> have to burn propellant to de-orbit too, so if you're going to keep extra
> gas on the ship then you might as well use it to park instead.
>
> If Elon Musk wants to waste his own grillions by letting them burn up in
> the atmosphere, then he can do that.
>
> On 11/3/2020 4:28 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering
> tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just
> goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere since we
> know where it all is
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster 
> wrote:
>
> When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time.
>
> Thank you,
> Brian Webster
> www.wirelessmapping.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>
> What about the moon Nazis?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>
> I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the
> space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below
> which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.
>
> All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)
>
>
> Jared
>
>
>
>
> From: "Cameron Crum" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: [AFMUG] space junk
>
> Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff.
> Check
> out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
> planet.
>
> http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
>
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
> lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
> 
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

oh heck yeah, it will be kinda like air hockey on a larger scale for me.
Ill always try to hit canada with debris. Im also really corrupt, so the
right outfit puts a few shekels in my pocket, maybe my roomba knocks
somebodies 10 billion dollar sateelite out of the shy, never know, lots of
accidents happen in space

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 4:05 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> We should appoint Steve as space junk zar (or would it be Space Junk
> Zar?). That could be a fun job with no frustarations whatever.
>
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 1:29 PM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering
>> tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just
>> goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere since we
>> know where it all is
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Brian Webster
>>> www.wirelessmapping.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
>>> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>>>
>>> What about the moon Nazis?
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
>>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>>>
>>> I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the
>>> space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below
>>> which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.
>>>
>>> All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)
>>>
>>>
>>> Jared
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "Cameron Crum" 
>>> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
>>> Subject: [AFMUG] space junk
>>>
>>> Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff.
>>> Check
>>> out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
>>> planet.
>>>
>>> http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
>>> lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
>>> 
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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[AFMUG] OT: Definite Political: The Election

/lent

So, our industry is coming off the free mad cash (((those guys))) push with
four years of  (((these guys))) free for all. Either way this goes theres a
reckoning coming over the next 4 years.

And ol elon is out there terrifying WISPS (BTW, boss is seriously in the
market if anybody wants to cash out) that the skynet is going to take over.

No matter how this next couple weeks go, the landscape is going to change
for businesses.

I anticipate either way another massive influx of COVID cash for internets
in the next 6 months to make sure we are ready for a remote nation upon the
next disaster. I also think the "broadband" definition is going to scale
back now that so much of the nation had to operate the critical components
of society without unlimited bandwidth.

A multitude of operators are going to go bankrupt because of the covid
related hardships, real or imagined, so some smaller players are going to
get bigger, some bigger players are going to absorb, and some new players
will hit the market.

also, does PR even want to be a state? I never knew for sure. I think they
should be if they want, but why would you want to gain the responsibility
of statehood when you already have the benefit
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[AFMUG] ARIN Spam from Arab Emirates

2020-11-03 Thread Sterling Jacobson

Hey look! The United Arab Emirates are opening their coffers for us COVID poor 
ISPs, lol!


"Greetings,



I hope this email finds you well. My name is Valerie McGrath, I am a Lenders 
Liaison Representative writing from the United Arab Emirates.



The covid 19 crisis has wreaked havoc in businesses and employment around the 
world. This situation has prompted our lenders to slash interest rates to make 
borrowing cheaper and encourage spending to boost the economy.



This LOAN PROGRAM is an opportunity for you. The terms and conditions are very 
flexible with simple procedures. I will give you more details and guidelines 
soon as you indicate your interest.





Best regards,

Valerie McGrath."

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Re: [AFMUG] ARIN Spam from Arab Emirates

ive been tempted to see what these spammers will pay for my arin space. Im
thinking about telling them i only want 1k down per /24 if they want my
arin login info

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 7:50 PM Sterling Jacobson 
wrote:

> Hey look! The United Arab Emirates are opening their coffers for us COVID
> poor ISPs, lol!
>
>
>
> “Greetings,
>
>
>
> I hope this email finds you well. My name is Valerie McGrath, I am a
> Lenders Liaison Representative writing from the United Arab Emirates.
>
>
>
> The covid 19 crisis has wreaked havoc in businesses and employment around
> the world. This situation has prompted our lenders to slash interest rates
> to make borrowing cheaper and encourage spending to boost the economy.
>
>
>
> This LOAN PROGRAM is an opportunity for you. The terms and conditions are
> very flexible with simple procedures. I will give you more details and
> guidelines soon as you indicate your interest.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Valerie McGrath.”
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

Have to pronounce onion like Justin Wilson, the Cookin’ Cajun.  I gar-on-tee.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:32 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

Thinking about grillions now. We BBQ's burgers last night, and I sliced some 
onion to char on the side. So is a BBQ-charred onion called a grillion?

--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:12 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

https://www.space.com/spacex-starship-space-junk-cleanup

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

Here are some of the variables that will affect deorbit Altitude, mass, speed 
and surface area. At the lower orbit aka 500km where starlink is there is still 
some atmosphere so they are are getting air resistance and are slowing down. As 
they slow down they get more air resistance until they fully deorbit. If I 
remember right the starlink satellites need boosting nearly  constantly or they 
will deorbit and will deorbit in less than 5 years without the active 
management. It has been also said the satellites have been designed so 
completely break up during the orbit so that nothing reaches the ground. 

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 5:41 PM Robert mailto:i...@avantwireless.com> > wrote:

I think it's about how much delta v required to de-orbit vs. park.   For LEO 
sats the DV is smaller to deorbit vs. park.  For sync sats, it's just about 
getting it above the very valuable sync orbit.  So a small increase in orbit is 
not much fuel.   For lower than sync, it's a lot of unused space and a long way 
down to deorbit so they usually stay where they are.

On 11/3/20 2:33 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:

I think the best practice right now is to save enough propellant to boost your 
old satellite into a parking orbit.  The idea is we spent a grillion dollars 
putting it up there, and someday we might harvest old satellites for material 
rather than launching new stuff for a grillion more.  You'd have to burn 
propellant to de-orbit too, so if you're going to keep extra gas on the ship 
then you might as well use it to park instead.

If Elon Musk wants to waste his own grillions by letting them burn up in the 
atmosphere, then he can do that.

On 11/3/2020 4:28 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering tickets? 
why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just goes and pings 
each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere since we know where it all is

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com> > wrote:

When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time. 

Thank you,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com  

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com  ] On 
Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

What about the moon Nazis?

-Original Message-
From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of fiber...@mail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk

I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the
space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below
which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.

All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)

Jared

From: "Cameron Crum" mailto:cc...@murcevilo.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: [AFMUG] space junk

Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff. Check
out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
planet. 

http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com  
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai 

lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]

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Re: [AFMUG] space junk

i miss that show

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 8:23 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> Have to pronounce onion like Justin Wilson, the Cookin’ Cajun.  I
> gar-on-tee.
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Bill Prince
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:32 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>
>
>
>
>
> Thinking about grillions now. We BBQ's burgers last night, and I sliced
> some onion to char on the side. So is a BBQ-charred onion called a grillion?
>
> --
>
> bp
>
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:12 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
> https://www.space.com/spacex-starship-space-junk-cleanup
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Zach Underwood
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 3, 2020 5:01 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>
>
>
> Here are some of the variables that will affect deorbit Altitude, mass,
> speed and surface area. At the lower orbit aka 500km where starlink is
> there is still some atmosphere so they are are getting air resistance and
> are slowing down. As they slow down they get more air resistance until they
> fully deorbit. If I remember right the starlink satellites need boosting
> nearly  constantly or they will deorbit and will deorbit in less than 5
> years without the active management. It has been also said the satellites
> have been designed so completely break up during the orbit so that nothing
> reaches the ground.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020, 5:41 PM Robert  wrote:
>
> I think it's about how much delta v required to de-orbit vs. park.   For
> LEO sats the DV is smaller to deorbit vs. park.  For sync sats, it's just
> about getting it above the very valuable sync orbit.  So a small increase
> in orbit is not much fuel.   For lower than sync, it's a lot of unused
> space and a long way down to deorbit so they usually stay where they are.
>
> On 11/3/20 2:33 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
>
> I think the best practice right now is to save enough propellant to boost
> your old satellite into a parking orbit.  The idea is we spent a grillion
> dollars putting it up there, and someday we might harvest old satellites
> for material rather than launching new stuff for a grillion more.  You'd
> have to burn propellant to de-orbit too, so if you're going to keep extra
> gas on the ship then you might as well use it to park instead.
>
> If Elon Musk wants to waste his own grillions by letting them burn up in
> the atmosphere, then he can do that.
>
> On 11/3/2020 4:28 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> is there any accountability for debris left in space? like littering
> tickets? why hasnt somebody like elon musk made a space roomba that just
> goes and pings each item out of orbit back into the atmosphere since we
> know where it all is
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 3:04 PM Brian Webster 
> wrote:
>
> When you zoom in on the map the objects move in real time.
>
> Thank you,
> Brian Webster
> www.wirelessmapping.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 1:47 PM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>
> What about the moon Nazis?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 3, 2020 12:21 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] space junk
>
> I have this vague recollection that we currently can't even track all the
> space junk. There was some lower limit, in the order of inches(?), below
> which there isn't enough of a radar(?) return.
>
> All I want to know, how long until Kessler syndrome? :)
>
>
> Jared
>
>
>
>
> From: "Cameron Crum" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Subject: [AFMUG] space junk
>
> Just because I know a bunch of you guys are interested in space stuff.
> Check
> out this really cool site that shows every object in orbit around our
> planet.
>
> http://stuffin.space-- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com
>
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com[http://af.afmug.com/mai
> lman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com]
> 
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Definite Political: The Election

2020-11-03 Thread Adam Moffett


They've had referendums go either direction.

Here's everything I know about Puerto Rico: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPlcE3GcoFc


Bernardo: "I think I go back to San Juan."

Anita: "I know a boat you can get on."

Bernardo: "When I get back there will be big cheer."

Anita:"Everyone there will have moved here."





also, does PR even want to be a state? I never knew for sure. I think 
they should be if they want, but why would you want to gain the 
responsibility of statehood when you already have the benefit






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Re: [AFMUG] OT: Definite Political: The Election