> On Oct 20, 2024, at 4:44 PM, sartesian via groups.io
> wrote:
>
> Quit lying and I'll stop calling you a liar.
This thread has degenerated into an uncivil exchange between two people and
needs to end.
Mark
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An example of Marv's self-control:
>
> As a good and principled revolutionary, you would not have participated in
> the trade union, civil rights, womens' gay, and other social movements
> which sought to translate their demands into legislative reforms through
> the Democratic Party. Or if you
On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 02:33 PM, wrote:
>
> According to your argument, SNCC and its supporters should have been
> members of the Democratic Party.
Not at all. You're confusing the point about the need for left-wing activists
to join with the mass of loyal Democrats to pressure their party
Anybody else want to take a stab at answering the questions:
re Walter Daum's assertion, where in the last century has a socialist party
made a "tactical" alliance with a bourgeois party that advanced the
self-organization of the working class?
re the Liar: where has entry into a bourgeois p
On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 03:44 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> As a good and principled revolutionary, you would not have participated in
> the trade union, civil rights, womens' gay, and other social movements
> which sought to translate their demands into legislative reforms through
> the Democratic
On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 10:27 AM, wrote:
>
> The questions I posed remain unanswered.
*Your answer to my questions:*
As a good and principled revolutionary, you would not have participated in the
trade union, civil rights, womens' gay, and other social movements which sought
to translate the
On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 11:44 AM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> Should we take this to to mean that the trade union, civil rights,
> womens' gay, and other social movements should not have sought to
> translate their demands into legislative reforms through the Democratic
> Party? Or through the Labo
There isn’t any parties or left really that is not subservient to
autocratic states which the “ left” sees as a model or ignores their
imperialism like Russia and China. So no chance of independent left parties
emerging.
On Friday, October 18, 2024, Anthony Boynton via groups.io wrote:
> If Harr
On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 08:11 AM, wrote:
>
> Where has entry into a bourgeois party "complemented" extra parliamentary
> class struggle?
Should we take this to to mean that the trade union, civil rights, womens'
gay, and other social movements should not have sought to translate their
demand
On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 04:55 AM, hari kumar wrote:
>
> But I also have a serious rejoinder that Sartesian should consider also
> (at least in my view). That is whatever the historical survey - what
> alternative do you Sartesian propose?
>
> I know that Lenin rightly also tells us that the
To Marv, but actually to Sartesian ultimately:
I think it is a task that is definitely worth doing to respond to such a
meaningful and actually I think a very constructive question. But I think it
does take a fair bit of a careful historical survey - to address properly. For
my part I shall try
Over to Daum, Kumar. and Reimann if they wish... .
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#1 YOU
On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 04:25 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> The same can't be said of those like Artesian who stand aloof from
> class-based organizations and who do not accept or understand that
> electoral intervention can complement rather than contradict
> extraparliamentary activity, or of tho
(Sorry. This reply should have been directed to this thread.)
Artesian's argument is one can’t support the Democrats against the Republicans
in an election year because the party supports attacks on immigrants, voter
discrimination, free universal healthcare, abortion rights, US arming of
Israe
[Edited Message Follows]
(Sorry. This reply should have been directed to this thread.)
Artesian's argument is one can’t support the Democrats against the Republicans
in an election year because the party supports attacks on immigrants, voter
discrimination, free universal healthcare, abortion r
https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/32365
Short version: you keep on doing what you're doing. If, OTOH, you believe
entry into the Dem party is "tactically correct" then we are entitled to see
the strategy that informs the tactic and the programmatic basis for that
strategy.
And here's som
On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 09:23 AM, wrote:
>
> If you check back to post 32365
Pls. provide link..
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On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 09:02 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> I'll now again have to deal with my disappointment.
Well, we can't have that. If you check back to post 32365, you'll find my
"recommendations." As to listing "approved" formations, I'm sure there are
some, the scarcity of which, h
Hi Hari,
Your opinions and how you present them is valued on the list, not least by me.
Stalin, Hoxha, and Trotsky would make for interesting dinner time conversation,
as would the question of when a closed Leninist circle should “unfurl its
banner”, so to speak, and present itself to the work
Good am Dennis. I re-read the messages from yesterday, as is my practice. And I
certainly do owe you an unreserved apology. I had indeed not answered your
specific query. I cannot really explain why, other than I was rushed - but also
an assumption that you had been asking for the programmatic d
> On Oct 18, 2024, at 1:45 AM, Michael Meeropol via groups.io
> wrote:
>
> the BUILD BACK BETTER bill
Mike, hasn't Build Back Better globally resulted in Burn More Coal? And more
exploitation of the global south, including "green extractives" and "sacrifice
zones." These topics were discu
Too bad, Artesian. I was looking for more. It's not the first time you've
entertained the list with a one-liner whenever you’ve been challenged to show
what you would do differently or whether there was a political party anywhere,
big or small, which you could support. I'll now again have to dea
On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 03:48 PM, wrote:
>
> What do you say to that more politically conscious sector in unions and DSA
> who have been struggling to break the collaboration? "Not now"? "Your
> time will come"? "Conditions aren't right"?
I'd have to be in the DP and party to the debates with
Oh Marv, the more distance there is between us, the more hope I have.
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On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 05:36 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> Good question, and Michael M. would be justified in throwing it back at
> you: What are YOU going to do to get Kamala Harris quaking in her boots
> besides sending incendiary emails to Marxmail?
>
>
>
He might be...if I thought Ms. Har
On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 11:15 AM, wrote:
>
> What are YOU and the other progressives going to do? Swear off your
> version of footsie with the Democrats? Will that mean the "greater evil"
> has gone away? I'll bet she'll be quaking in her boots when you tell her
> she owes you.
Good question
On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 04:45 AM, Michael Meeropol wrote:
>
> we need to say -- WE (progressives) were loyal to you as you played
> footsie with Republicans --- NOW, you have to respond to our proposals
> because they are ALL VERY POPULAR --- she needs to force through the PRO
> Act and the John
Two points.
First, this time around Trump is not president so he does not have the same
power to obstruct the process if he loses that he had last time. True his
supporters in the states can cause chaos but that is likely the extent of his
obstructive capabilities other than having a handful o
Dennis points to the fundamental flaw in the so-called "tactical alliance" with
an established bourgeois party against the "greater evil"-- If as the advocates
claim such a maneuver leads to a strengthening of the prospects for an
independent movement, that growing strength necessarily weakens t
If Harris wins, Trump will try to steal the election. His efforts have already
begun. The immediate struggle will be to defend the votes of the people against
Trump. Assuming that Harris does become president, the most likely first phase
will be euphoria among "progressives" and bitter disappoin
No you didn't. Again - would a third party run against the lesser evil in
four years be permissible, or would it strengthen the greater evil?
On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 11:05 AM hari kumar via groups.io wrote:
> Dennis - you are being absurd. I just did.
> H
>
>
>
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Dennis - you are being absurd. I just did.
H
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#1 YOU MUST c
Please answer my question.
On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 10:23 AM hari kumar via groups.io wrote:
> Well does not that rather depend upon the activity of the membership; and
> the philosophy/platform of the putative party?
>
>
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Well does not that rather depend upon the activity of the membership; and the
philosophy/platform of the putative party?
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Why would a future third party be any less of "a spoiler" for the chances
of "the lesser evil" corporate/imperialist party then it is today or has
been accused of being in the long history or resistance to "lesser
evilism"? Exactly what makes it permissible in four years - will there be
no Trump-ty
Hello Michael M:
While I like you believe a vote for Harris better than none or Trump - at the
very minimum - I think your post-elections demands warrant a somewhat sharper
tone.
Moreover:
It would be better to preface any 'demands' (only useful word if there is a
capacity to truly "demand") ar
NO MATTER WHO WINS -- our first task will be to DEMAND that BIden
immediately turn off the spigot of money for the Netanyahu war machine ---
he will have NO POLITICAL EXCUSE not to --- Those of us supporting Harris
will have to come to the aid of those already so disgusted with Biden's
support for
On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 01:36 PM, Mark Lause wrote:
>
> Confusing the electoral vaIidation of any wing of the ruling class with a
> victory for the masses reflects a stupifying misunderstanding.
No one misunderstands or has said that a Harris win over Trump would represent
"a victory for the ma
Voting for Harris as a tactical act of desperation to support the victory
of a lesser evil wing of the ruling class over Trump is one thing.
Confusing the electoral vaIidation of any wing of the ruling class with a
victory for the masses reflects a stupifying misunderstanding.
> _._,_._,_
>
>
-
Steve, interesting prognostication. I don't see any of what you say actually
happening. Yes, there will be *some* realignment...the last big one was between
1980 and 1982 when the "Reagan Revolution" occurred and a swath of reactionary
Democratic senators from the South (and one from Colorado) c
On 10/17/2024 12:18 PM PDT Marv Gandall wrote:
Quite possibly, although a third possibility is that a Trump defeat will give
the establishment Republicans the pretext they need to crack down on the MAGA
movement in order to restore the party's electability through someone perceived
as more "m
On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 09:16 AM, Jim Farmelant wrote:
>
>
>> I see massive demoralization and cynicism and withdrawal from political
>> activism – a disaster for the Left since the far right will not be
>> demoralized but emboldened.
>
> Unfortunately, the last alternative appears to be the mo
On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 12:00 PM, Dennis Brasky wrote:
>
> Either the young will abandon the Dems and demand that labor and the left
> form a new party that, which at first would probably be more
> social-democratic than radical, will be take clear progressive positions,
> o r in the event that n
>
> I seriously hope and predict (but not support) a Harris victory over
> Trump. I will eagerly await the reactions of progressives – especially the
> young – who are so excited today with her "differences" with Trump
> (conveniently ignoring her support from non-Trump war criminals like W Bush
>
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