, there will always be
a way to connect a keyboard if you want it.
- Original Message -
From: "David Denne"
To:
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: no mac for blind people in Belgium
>I think that if you get a touch screen device of any kind really it'
l the keys. Most keyboards even have extra bumps on the f, j, and
>>> numpad
>>> 5 keys so people can find them easier.
>>>
>>> I just bought a mini USP keyboard from the Apple Store. Its way flatter
>>> than
>>> a regular keyboard but its not per
nt to compose an email yourself than to have your secretary
> compose it for you.
> - Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Howell"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 12:48 PM
> Subject: Re: no mac for blind people in Belgium
>
>
> John, that is t
The problem is that, because every brain is pruned differently, it
responds differently to "identical," stimuli; thus telepathy is a very
slim shot indeed. However, I think the conventional keyboard is on
its way out in favor of more efficient ways to use all ten of those
fingers to get mo
compose it for you.
- Original Message -
From: "Scott Howell"
To:
Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: no mac for blind people in Belgium
John, that is true and in talking to a friend of mine who has really taken
to the iPhone as I have and he is sighted, h
Yeah, I noticed the USB model. :) Wonder if they make a FireWire
version of that. I wrote my first novel-length work on one of those
Apple 90s style keyboards; if I had cash to drop, I'd consider one of
those. The MBP keyboard is fine, but should probably be preserved for
when it's not j
Right, but at best you still have the contextual phonetic issues of
which witch is which. Also, a keyboard won't require training to figure
out what letters you meant. The new automated closed caption system from
Google is going to be interesting as they refine the algorithims:
http://googleblo
One update they did make is that it works with USB now so you probably
could get one for your mac. Web site is
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/
The Customizer 101 is $69. I also liked the old school Apple full-size
ADB keyboards from the early 90s. Not as loud as IBM's but I could still
ty
Mac Book Pro 15.
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I kept my IBM AT keyboard until the SPACEBAR fell of for the lst time and
SuperGlue was no good anymore. I loved that keyboard. I must say, though,
that I really dig the MacBook Pro keyboard even without the old IBM punch back
keys.
Oh... I just realized what an MBP15 is...
On Dec 4, 2009, at
MUAHAHAHAHA! I should have never given up my model M! I'm such a
loser! I wonder if they'd make me an Apple Model M *big dreamy eyes*
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What is an MBP15?
On Dec 4, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote:
> Well, that may be a point. I do relish the action of a good keyboard,
> and it wasn't until I got much better hearing aids that I finally gave
> up on my IBM model M keboard; built like a tank, all metal parts, rea
Actually, the latest and greatest voice recognition systems are amazingly
accurate after they have been adequately trained. "Adequate" training does
thak hundreds of hours of use and being incredibly faithful to correcting the
mistakes the software makes. Few people who can type are willing to
NPR did a bit about those keyboards back in January. You might find it
interesting. They cater to a niche market that still cares and will pay
more than $3 for the good feel of a key click.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100076874
CB
Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote:
> Well,
> generally, you don't see them because people don't like them.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Mark BurningHawk Baxter"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: no mac for blind people in Belgium
>
>
>>
Well, that may be a point. I do relish the action of a good keyboard,
and it wasn't until I got much better hearing aids that I finally gave
up on my IBM model M keboard; built like a tank, all metal parts, real
springs, and I loved the action on that puppy. The only keyboard that
could d
nt: Friday, December 04, 2009 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: no mac for blind people in Belgium
> Keyboard, or touch-input alphanumerical devices, sure, but they'll be
> touch screen or nonstandard shapes and sizes; it behooves the blind
> person, I think, to get used to the fact and start
Keyboard, or touch-input alphanumerical devices, sure, but they'll be
touch screen or nonstandard shapes and sizes; it behooves the blind
person, I think, to get used to the fact and start breaking away from
traditional QWERTY; I never learned DVORAK or any other of the
keyboard configurati
I dunno. As long as the primary form of stored and forwarded
communication is written text, the fastest way to generate that text is
either going to be strong native speech recognition or a physical
interface that makes use of all 10 fingers, if possible. Even though
voice recognition keeps pro
Hell, I just woke my wife up to drive me to a mental health hospital to sign
myself in for a few days on your recommendation that I should be committed
. The truth is that I'm pretty nuts and I didn't find your incomplete
note as anything but amusing banter.
cdh
On Dec 2, 2009, at 11:23 PM, pe
Chris,
please accept my sincere apologies. the below message was not the
completed response i had intended on posting. after reading the below posting
i have unintentuly falsely targeted you personally. My intent was to poke fun
and note one of my own experiences. however i have no
you should be committed. it's your fault for assuming. learn to communicate
and all of your listed issues will be resolved.
Good luck, Go nfb :(
On Dec 1, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
> I am so sick of teaching random citizens about guide dogs, blindness, that I
> don't need a
Not all schools in the US grant full ownership of dogs @ graduation. Some do,
but others don't until after a period of time.
On Dec 1, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
> Hi,
> The difference, as i understand it, and correct me if i'm wrong here, is that
> in the States, you actually o
Before moving to the Bay Area of California, I'd agree with you. but
the crazy way people act around here, the amount of hassle I get from
pig--cops--around here, even *AFTER* I cut my hair back to a
crewcut... I don't take anything for granted. Plus, Guiding Eyes and
I have had our diffe
dogs but I've never met anyone who has
> experienced this.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Krister Ekstrom [mailto:kris...@kristersplace.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:54 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: no mac for blind peop
Depends on the school in the U. S. Some contracts say in large print
one thing such as "end user" owns, but in small print there is some
wiggle room for the organization. The organization still however,
may have to proceed through legal meens to get the dog back. In
other words they have
Well, now, I care very little for who says they own what; there's
another thing in the states that goes "Possession is nine tenths of
the law." It's whom the *DOG* chooses that matters more to me.
Having said that, I will now give the facts for my guide dog school:
Guiding Eyes for the Bli
Some of the organizations give you full ownership and some don't. For the ones
that do there is usually a fee of about $200.
On Dec 1, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
> Hi,
> The difference, as i understand it, and correct me if i'm wrong here, is that
> in the States, you actually ow
Amen brother!!!
On Dec 1, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote:
> Hell, I've had people call the cops on me and my guide dog--it was
> easier to convince the cop that no, I was not abusing the dog, that
> yes, the dog loved me and was a working animal, that the person who
> calle
this.
-Original Message-
From: Krister Ekstrom [mailto:kris...@kristersplace.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:54 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: no mac for blind people in Belgium
Hi,
The difference, as i understand it, and correct me if i'm wrong here, is th
Hello, This is the way in which it is done in the Netherlands as well, the
school owns the dog and loans it to the end user. I have heard of some cases
though in the states in chich a dog was taken a way from its owner (i mean a
guidedog not a normal dog).
Greetings, Anouk,
On Dec 1, 2009, at 8:
Hi,
The difference, as i understand it, and correct me if i'm wrong here, is that
in the States, you actually own the dog. In Sweden it's the blindness
organization that owns the guide dogs, we just use them, borrow if you so will
and so taking a dog away is perfectly ok, if the owner so chooses
Yeah, and for that unfortunate half a blind person, finding a kidney
before you get the job is just impossible! Not to mention legs and a
half torso... :)
Mark BurningHawk Baxter
Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969
MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com
My home page:
http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
The keyboard will become obsolete in the next 10-20 years; this is a
prediction I'm making now. It was invented in the 19th century for
the manual typewriter. It's going to go the way of the cathode ray
tube; it's primitive. Blind people either adapt or they get left
behind. I can't affo
Hell, I've had people call the cops on me and my guide dog--it was
easier to convince the cop that no, I was not abusing the dog, that
yes, the dog loved me and was a working animal, that the person who
called them was uninformed... etc. If anyone wants to take a dog away
from me, they're
My ultimate trigger are the people who ask, "does he want a braille menu?" or
something similar as if I wasn't actually there. This is a real zero level
interrupt for me that I need to fight hard not to blow out a sequence of
profanity (I am originally from New Jersey where such language is pr
That phone, called Oasis in the US, was an entirely private venture although
they did get a loan from Once in Spain on which I think they defaulted. I am
good friends with one of the people who led the organization here in the US and
she's using an iPhone these days.
As I've said, a mass marke
I am so sick of teaching random citizens about guide dogs, blindness, that I
don't need a wheelchair or assistance walking up a jet way, how I can dial a
telephone, how I can pee into a urinal without missing - you name it, that I
can almost explode.
An anecdote: In Harvard Square, the rapid t
On 1 déc. 2009, at 23:37, Chris Hofstader wrote:
> According to NFB numbers, there are 1.5 blind people and about 10 million low
> vision in the US. With a total population of over 300 million, we are an
> absolutely tiny fraction of the population.
For people who rely on niche devices that i
According to NFB numbers, there are 1.5 blind people and about 10 million low
vision in the US. With a total population of over 300 million, we are an
absolutely tiny fraction of the population.
cdh
On Nov 30, 2009, at 3:50 PM, carlene knight wrote:
> Unfortunately you have to be realistic tho
NFB does not actually try to push people toward JAWS and Windows. Their
Macintosh/VO review was a pathetic example of poor journalism but they do and
say rather mean things about lots of other products from FS and elsewhere.
At one NFB convention, because OpenBook had fewer features in the Span
Hi,
This should also go to the bs list to which I CC'd my response...
I don't think I said "born blind" but, rather, blind at an early age versus
into adulthood. Your comments on the resources that a community can muster,
though, are entirely true. Even in the small towns, though, those blind
That reminds me of what happened when i showed the iphone at a big vendors show
here in Sweden.
I got told that this was a new device and that people most likely never would
switch because "blind people should use physical buttons, nothing more". Some
said that this was a modern design interface
Hi,
I totally agree with much that you're saying. That's why i don't educate or
inform people anymore, it's simply not worth the bother. People say that when
people are prejudiced or ask stupid questions or are plain downright rude, it's
because they aren't educated enough, but i've learned when
Wow, what a deal, I'd love to have gotten one for Christmas. In order to buy
one for myself, my wife told me I had to buy her one as well. :) The one thing
that made this purchase well worth it is when she needed some help, I could
easily turn VoiceOver on and help her with her phone. That was n
When I told her I was considering getting an iPhone after the first of
the year, she said, "Why wait till then, when it's possible you may
get one for Christmas." Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska.
On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Scott Howell wrote:
Hey Richie, so now that the iPhone is acc
in 1990, when OutSpoken for the Mac came out and I was using it at my
place of employment, I was asked to demonstrate it as a visually
impaired computer users group in Boston, MA. I got up there and
demonstrated it with four part harmony and feeling, and the guy from
MS got up and started
it doesn't bother me really. I just laugh and know that I'm at least helping
one person, which is what I care about. If the rest want to throw themselves in
with the flock and kneel at the feet of the people in NFB, so be it. More power
to them. While that might sound arrogant, it's more of a wa
I'm not good at covert, except insofar as the art of invisibility is
concerned, and for me that has limited applications as of yet. I
cannot stand to be disrespected to my face. Only recently have I been
able to tolerate having someone be rude to me over the phone or by E-
mail and take it
It would figure that it was the NFB. I went to a tech meeting there, and
discussed the history of technology. While there they discussed how much the
NFB affected technology and used examples, but they forgot to mention other
companies; Voiceover, window eyes, speak up, orca, etc.
I found it mil
Hey Richie, so now that the iPhone is accessible, what does she think about
that?
Considering she thought it was possible and now it is, she must be pretty
impressed. :)
On Nov 30, 2009, at 4:54 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote:
> Scott, I never would have had my interest peaked about the iPhone,
>
It would, in fact be great to see jaws in the stores, but that'd just give FS a
reason to double the costs. That and stocking jaws on shelves that won't ever
need it. The stores actually have to pay for it, then pay for the new version
when a new one comes out, etc.
On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:50 PM,
Why are you dependent on agencies to do stuff? Your just as capable as they are
of doing the research. More than likely your more capable because you won't
just go with the normal and will choose what you like for whatever reasons. The
hunt for accessible software is hard at times, but it's not
I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they have a
guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's why I will not
upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and secondly, I don't want
to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but FS knows that they ca
I'm with you on the anarchy, though I've chosen to just stay close mouthed
about things I disagree with and take what I get and smile. If there is someone
who I see is the same way or who I might be able to help by possibly pushing
them off the ideals track, I'm totally willing to do so, though
Exactly so. The fact is that I forget that I'm seen as disabled
because I'm the strongest person in my world. To me, many people who
try to "help," me are the ones in desperate need of help themselves,
but I realize that this point of view is just switching the shoe to
the other foot and
Scott, I never would have had my interest peaked about the iPhone,
were it not for my niece, Elisabeth, who had one and though she didn't
show me how to operate it, she thought it could be adapted so that
blind people could use it. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska.
On Nov 30, 2009, at
With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time
again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has
gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted
community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended for
use by the blind for sca
Urrggg! We could get into a discussion about the NFB as I think they have made
a lot of things worse in pretending we don't have different needs than the
sighted workd. but I think that's an OT subject. I could write essays about
it though. As I said, the sales people at Apple stores should
or better yet, call Microsoft and tell them that Apple is making their products
accessible out of the box, why can't they. :) I agree with you 100% I have
always hated the word "disabled." It sounds like everything is disabled, not
just my eyes. I love my work place because people have disc
Yep, I troll those sites all the time. :) Thanks.
Mark BurningHawk Baxter
Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969
MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com
My home page:
http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
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To pos
I love conversations like that! It's a rare treat for me when
someone comes up and says, basically, "You're different from me and
that fascinates me, and I want to learn." Usually what I get is
"You're different from me and that makes me afraid, so I'm going to
control what I fear so tha
Ah, well that is a good question. I'm a Program Manager for Work/Life and
Benefits in human resources, but from a policy side of the hr world. You can
check out http://nasajobs.nasa.gov or http://usajobs.opm.gov.
Good luck,
On Nov 30, 2009, at 4:07 PM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote:
> It's not
Mark, very interesting. I once was on a flight and this nice young lady started
asking me about my dog. The conversation quickly turned to questions about
being blind, about how I work with computers and the like and eventually to her
showing me an Iphone. THis was before the iPhone was accessib
My first visit to an Apple store, the guy said "what over? Voice
what? Oh, you mean that speech synthesizer program? we don't have
that." When I showed him VoiceOver, instead of being helpful, he
became defensive; "Well how'm I supposed to know about that? no one's
ever used it before."
It's not a total failure, until it is, and then it'll be a spectacular
failure. It's a quick-fix solution for a quick-fix world, where your
food comes from a tube and your cure from a pill, where you travel 80
miles an hour to go nowhere. While this might sound like I"m
disparaging Wester
As long as the blind define themselves as "disabled," they will have
this problem. It's paradoxical, because as I said, I don't really
like to be around lots of blind people all together in a group, and
yet we, the blind people, need some sort of cohesive teaching /
enabling power that wil
And that is why I'm very supportive of what APple has done and will continue to
do and I hope they do just that.
On Nov 30, 2009, at 3:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote:
> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, being
> one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor o
Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in a sense,
but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of the shelf? That
would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac and accessories. The people
in the Mac and Apple stores will likely not be trained for exte
Well there ya go Mark, you said it and I couldn't agree more. I didn't have the
agencies etc. since I don't think my folks really knew about them. I grew up in
a sighted world so to speak and learned to get along and work with what I had.
THe county I lived in provided the tools to get through s
I am flattered that I made you think; that's the highest of
compliments, thank you. It seems to me that the system is bass-
ackwards. Instead of saying "what do you need?" and gently showing
you how you can assist yourself, in other words assisting you to not
need assistance, they say "thi
And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, being
one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other things
and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, and the
disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different subject line
from what wa
You've got a point. I wish I could do all of this on my own. OCB has been
willing to step in after my employment to help me, but I know that many
organizations don't. They do sign over expensive equipment which you are then
responsible for getting repaired regardless of your income. I don't
The biggest way in which the sighted have power over the blind is just
that; they teach the blind to pity themselves, to be dependent on the
sighted and not upon themselves. Thank you for the kind words, by the
way; I only hope I can earn them. :) I fall far short of my ideals in
this res
Hi, Carlene.
You are a perfect example of my point. Generally put, they did not
teach you to fish, they gave you some fish. Hell, I'm writing this on
the Macbook DOR of California bought me; listening with the hearing
aids they bought me... Maybe I'm a hypocrite, but I'm forced to use
t
extra-Name doesn't sound familiar. When I got accepted to Dartmouth
and started in 1986. I rarely went back because my parents and I
didn't get along so well. I also found that training at the Carroll
Center was far too slow for me, but the computer guy, Brian
Charleston, recognized that
Mark,
Reading your message, I have a lot of respect for you, and those like
you. The blind community is littered with people who would've given up, or who
make these agencies their life and conform to them. I recently attended the
youthslam convention NFB hosted this last summer, in the
Hi Mark:
I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their opinion.
However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind here in Oregon, there
is no way that I could perform the job I was hired for. I had to have a
programmer write JAWS scripts so that I could get to the bu
Hello chris,
I haven't followed this thread, but I will put in my two cents where I've had
experience.
The main thing is the comment about the advantages of blind people from birth;
while it may be easier to deal with, I've seen many people go blind at early
ages (before teens) and in their teen
My only valuable experience with an agency was learning the little bit of
braille that I know at a local Lighthouse. I've had lots of friends work at
such places and I believe they do as good as they can under constant budgetary
pressures and I think these people do so with hope rather than my
You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I was
born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was raised as
an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from state
agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with minimal
if any help fr
I often share the frustration but I don't think the blame is entirely with the
agencies. People blind from childhood are far more likely to be independent
than are those of us who, like me, went blind later in life from RP or some
other degenerative disorder or accident. The kids are "in the s
gI think you've hit it right on the head--the blind are removed from
the capitalist marketplace "for their own good." If we abolish the
agencies, a lot of blind people would be left like fish flopping on
the floor of a boat--having never been taught the principles nor given
the power to co
Chris, very good points and I have to agree with your observations.
On Nov 30, 2009, at 7:31 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
> The problem, in the US at least, isn't the actual accessibility of any of
> the solutions but, rather, how entrenched the products and sales people have
> become in the cult
The problem, in the US at least, isn't the actual accessibility of any of the
solutions but, rather, how entrenched the products and sales people have become
in the culture of said agencies. FS has held a big lead for a long time and
virtually every AT trainer in the US knows at least one FS s
hi ann,
this is great news please let us know , if you wish tell us your esperience i
would be glad to translate it for our italian mailing list .
you and your housband are doing a great job with the braille tables.
rk
pubblish
Il giorno 29/nov/2009, alle ore 14.05, Scott Howell ha scritto:
> Hi
I think that part of the problem also is getting these agencies to realize how
accessible OSX is now. this has been my personal experience.
On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:47 AM, Scott Howell wrote:
> Chris,
>
> That is rediculous because funding isn't being just spent on "bombs" as you
> say, but on ev
Chris,
That is rediculous because funding isn't being just spent on "bombs" as you
say, but on every other possible and pointless program like bailouts of banks,
auto manufactures, and now the possibility of health care. Of course lets try
not to stray down the path of politics. I will agree th
Hello Anne, Yes that is fabulous indeed! Please keep us posted. I listened to
the french infovox voices and I think they are great and of really high quality.
Greetings, Anouk,
On Nov 29, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Scott Howell wrote:
> Hi Anne, that is great news and I'd be curious how that works out and
This should be moved to the bs list...
Getting government agencies or the non-profits with whom they contract to
provide such services in the US is really a hard problem to solve in the
current economic climate.
First off, a lot of people in the consumer services side of these organizations
Hi Anne, that is great news and I'd be curious how that works out and so keep
us posted. I'm sure this saved them money in the long run as well.
On Nov 29, 2009, at 7:51 AM, Anne Robertson wrote:
> Hello,
>
> To clear things up a bit, blind children at the school for the blind and deaf
> in Bru
rve them right if Apple sued them for making
>> false claoms or some such.
>> Donna
>> On Nov 28, 2009, at 9:46 PM, Rich Ring wrote:
>>
>>> But, they can still purchase one, can they not?
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "anouk rad
Hello,
To clear things up a bit, blind children at the school for the blind and deaf
in Brussels are going to be using Macs. I know this for a fact as I have a
contract to teach their IT teacher how to use Braille with VO. A company in
France got the contract to supply the computers and Braille
I would think that an appeal to the European Union section on disability would
probably result in a reversal in this decision. The lawsuit in question
started a long time ago and used a pretty crufty version of VO which wasn't too
usable in many areas. With all of the improvements since, thoug
such.
> Donna
> On Nov 28, 2009, at 9:46 PM, Rich Ring wrote:
>
>> But, they can still purchase one, can they not?
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "anouk radix"
>> To:
>> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 6:50 PM
>> Subject: no ma
wrote:
> But, they can still purchase one, can they not?
> - Original Message -
> From: "anouk radix"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 6:50 PM
> Subject: no mac for blind people in Belgium
>
>
> Hello, A friend of mine told me this morning hta
I beg to differ. The state agency I work for has in fact purchased several
> Macs for individuals who requested them.
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jake"
> To: "MacVisionaries"
> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 10:28 PM
> Subject: Re: no ma
Hello, Yes I know what you mean. Also if you are a student (high school or
university) as I said you get a laptop from the state. I know from my own
eperience that I did not only use this laptop at school but everywhere
including at home as well. So if you only get a certain laptop in your high
It's not that much different here in the U.S. Typically, if you want a state
agency to pay for your technology, they will have contracts with certain
companies like Humanware and will prefer certain screen readers, typically
Jaws.
On Nov 29, 2009, at 4:59 AM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:
>
> 29
Wow you can get a computer at work? At work we can get a braille display and
screenreader but you have to get yoru own pc (I dont mind this just stating
it). Ironic since for the money a new screenreader costs they could buy you a
mac mini...
Greetings, Anouk,
On Nov 29, 2009, at 10:53 AM, Krist
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