The problem, in the US at least, isn't the actual accessibility of any of the solutions but, rather, how entrenched the products and sales people have become in the culture of said agencies. FS has held a big lead for a long time and virtually every AT trainer in the US knows at least one FS salesperson personally - something entirely out of the reach of their competitors.
FS can also offer bundle deals that include JAWS, MAGic, braille displays, embossers, CCTV, PAC Mate, etc. The one stop shopping provides a number of conveniences for the people making the purchasing decisions: namely, the total price of the bundle but, more so, the single point of contact for anything that goes wrong with their blind/low vision products. On Windows, we have a terrific example of how "competition" has failed miserably in this product category. Two years ago this coming January, Serotek announced its System Access To Go (SATOGO) product that any user could employ without cost from any computer attached to the Internet. At the same time, they launched their new version of the full System Access at around $300, $700-800 less than JAWS and Window-Eyes. Last year at ATIA, they announced the "death of the SMA" and promised that all upgrades will always come at no cost to the consumers - saving another $250 every couple of years from the more popular screen access utilities. Using a decent computer one can get at Best Buy with any of the System Access solutions provides a really good platform at a really excellent price point. SA also tends to lead the Windows screen reader field being the first to run on 64-bit versions of Windows, being the only that provides access to the Vista and W7 dictation software, being the first to embrace Aria and web 2.0 application support (JAWS has leap frogged them in comprehensive but I'll wager that SA will catch up in the recent future) and SA has led in lots of other areas as well. So, in the Adam Smith/Milton Friedman definition of capitalism, a similar product at a lower price will cause the invisible hand of the market forces to "push" consumers to a much more affordable and also high quality product like SA. So many things have gone wrong in this niche , though, that it doesn't resemble a market that any of the capitalist theorists (Smith, Weber) or the modern small government, low regulation advocates (Friedman, Greenspan) would actually recognize as a "free" system. Some problems are where capitalism itself falls apart in the world of access technology. The reality of the problem in this space is that, as I mentioned yesterday, most organizations/agencies never go past JAWS in their evaluations so they hardly know that other Windows solutions exist, let alone Macintosh and GNU/Linux. Most consumers who come to such agencies have never heard of any of the screen access tools on any of the different platforms and are happy to get what they are given, which, of course, is JAWS. Scott is absolutely correct when he mentions a failure of socialism but not in the area of choice as the Europeans tend to have more options presented than we do in the US. The socialism fail comes from and is the source of the high prices of the AT products. I'm not sure if it's on an EU basis or country by country (things may have changed since I actually studied this problem) but the Europeans set a maximum price they will pay for AT and their regulations do not allow for said AT to be sold for less in other nations to avoid being ripped off by the publishers and manufacturers. The negative effect of this policy is that the Europeans maximum price is often considerably higher than that which natural market forces would find. This is less obvious in software as FS and others can make the claim that the Swedish version of their product is actually a different program and charge much more than they get for the ENglish version - if you have some spare time and are entirely bored, you can find the dealer web sites in a lot of different countries and see how JAWS is about twice the price in languages other than English or Spanish depending, of course, on exchange rates. But, if you take a look at braille displays, you will notice that nearly every manufacturer sells their products for approximately the same price for 40, 70 and 80 cell displays. This price is a few bucks less than the European maximum and, because braille hardware sales are much bigger in Europe than the rest of the world, it would be bad business and illegal in the EU to sell the devices for less in countries that don't provide a maximum. For the actual consumers in Europe, this policy works reasonably well as their health insurance pays for the products anyway and they get really nice stuff at no cost to themselves. Conversely, though, prices outside of Europe must be pegged to the prices charged in Europe so are unnaturally inflated pretty much everywhere outside of Europe. Hence, the European national health care systems alone set the price for hardware that people with vision impairment use around the rest of the world. [A bit of disclosure: I may have a bit of a bias toward System Access because Mike Calvo, Serotek CEO, and I have been friends for about a million years and I've enjoyed giving them free advice and seeing them turn my ideas into actual features. I do, however, believe that the pricing issues including their no cost SATOGO and low priced full solution are accurate and represent the failure of an ugly marketplace.] Happy Economizing, cdh , On Nov 29, 2009, at 2:10 PM, carlene knight wrote: > I think that part of the problem also is getting these agencies to realize > how accessible OSX is now. this has been my personal experience. > On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:47 AM, Scott Howell wrote: > >> Chris, >> >> That is ridiculous because funding isn't being just spent on "bombs" as you >> say, but on every other possible and pointless program like bailouts of >> banks, auto manufactures, and now the possibility of health care. Of course >> lets try not to stray down the path of politics. I will agree that many of >> these people have loss their jobs do to "other funding priorities", whatever >> those may be for that state and the government. >> Maybe it is a burden for some to purchase their own computers, but that is >> an entirely separate issue from having choice. I agree that if someone is >> not familiar with adaptive technology and has no idea what they need, it is >> more difficult to support offering them something you can't support as an >> agency. I do however believe that agencies should offer choice and be able >> to support choice. Of course everything always ties directly back to >> funding, but I would submit that a Mac would be less expensive. Well to be >> honest, this thread probably has run its course and I think we agree on many >> points all be it from a different point of view. :) >> On Nov 29, 2009, at 8:10 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: >> >>> This should be moved to the bs list... >>> >>> Getting government agencies or the non-profits with whom they contract to >>> provide such services in the US is really a hard problem to solve in the >>> current economic climate. >>> >>> First off, a lot of people in the consumer services side of these >>> organizations have been laid off so we can buy bombs for use in Afghanistan >>> and support the Israeli military machine. Thus, there are a lot fewer >>> trainers out there than just a few years ago. >>> >>> Most, if not all of these trainers know JAWS and ZoomText very well and, in >>> some of the wealthier areas, they know Window-Eyes and MAGic as well. >>> These agencies and NGO have already invested a lot of money in training >>> their trainers and are reticent to spend their scarce dollars on training >>> for another system like Macintosh that is, in their minds, unproven. >>> >>> Some states require that these agencies provide consumers with a choice but >>> accept that having JAWS and Window-Eyes is an actual choice. Those who, >>> for one reason or another, select Window-Eyes will probably get substandard >>> training as the JAWS juggernaut is nearly unbreakable. >>> >>> These programs are as "socialist" as those in Europe. In the US, we can >>> buy a Macintosh with our own scratch which, for many, is a real burden and >>> may not be possible. When you add that a local Lighthouse will help them >>> get a decent Windows machine and give them JAWS at no cost to the consumer >>> which will make choosing a Macintosh and paying out of pocket a lot less >>> attractive. >>> >>> Until the funding improves again, the roadblocks of shrinking training >>> dollars and a system that has virtually no one to actually evaluate the >>> alternatives will remain broken. So much for private enterprise... >>> >>> cdh >>> >>> PS: Do not take my comments and think I am a socialist - I believe that >>> government can do things where the market fails and proprietary access >>> technology is sold in a vacuum that is almost entirely non-competitive >>> means that private enterprise has failed and, in order to provide people >>> with disabilities any chance of participating in the proverbial quest for >>> the American Dream, the government needs to be involved. >>> >>> So, I believe that the free market usually functions very well but in >>> certain areas it hasn't enough capital to lubricate the system so it has >>> fallen into an FS monopoly. According to a recent study, JAWS has over 70% >>> of the users and Window-Eyes (number 2 in the study) has about 11% with all >>> others, including Mac, splitting up the rest. >>> >>> I can go on forever about the nasty business practices, litigation rather >>> than innovation and other maneuvers that FS uses to increase its >>> stranglehold on this market but I've said it so many times that I'm >>> starting to bore myself. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 28, 2009, at 11:28 PM, Jake wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Scott >>>> Although I agree with you completely, I'd argue that this situation >>>> exists in the US as well. Has anyone successfully gotten the >>>> government to buy them a Mac? I've never heard of a case, and the >>>> reasons given are similar and some are even open about dealing >>>> exclusively with one company or another. Ours, too, is a socialist >>>> program gone wrong. >>>> I'm actually curious now, has anyone gotten a Mac from any sort of >>>> government agency and if so, what country? >>>> In either case, though, let one thing be clear. You always have >>>> choices, and you've the power to make them. I got my Mac because I >>>> purchased it. Yes, I had to save up for a bit to do it, but it was >>>> well worth it. You always have that option no matter what your >>>> government decides to provide for you. So a ban on blind people >>>> getting a Mac does not exist. Maybe if enough exercise their power of >>>> choice we might counter the FUD spread by these blind companies. Come >>>> to think of it, that's the only way I can think to counter it. >>>> The sad thing is that these types of lobbies are all too successful >>>> when they crop up, because most people will listen to anything as long >>>> as the person speaking it acts like they know what they're talking >>>> about. Marketing hype, in other words, and it's a very good way to get >>>> at those in governments who know absolutely nothing about blindness or >>>> access technology of any kind. That's why we do need to exercise our >>>> freedom of choice. No one knows what product is better for a person >>>> than the person in that situation. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 28, 6:52 pm, Scott Howell <scooting...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> Well there ya go, a socialist program run totally amuck. If your going to >>>>> get something for nothing, your going to be strapped with someone's idea >>>>> of what you can and can't have. Yep, quite unfair, but obviously some >>>>> screen reading developers are afraid of the Mac's ability. Well I'm sure >>>>> my comments won't set well with some, but it is what it is and I'm glad I >>>>> can make my own choices. >>>>> On Nov 28, 2009, at 8:29 PM, anouk radix wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hello, I got this message from a friend (Paul Erkens) who will join the >>>>>> forum soon (his status is pending now). I am not really up to scratch >>>>>> with the general regime in belgium of giving access technology to blind >>>>>> people. I am just afraid that this will spread to the Netherlands. >>>>>> Here I know htat high school and university students that are blind can >>>>>> get a laptop, a screenreader and a braille display from the state. You >>>>>> dont have to pay for anything in this scenario. In this case clearly >>>>>> getting a mac with infovox voices and a braille display would be the >>>>>> cheapest scenario but if the screenreader manufacturers start a lobby >>>>>> here as well... >>>>>> Once again I am not sure how it all works out in Belgium. >>>>>> Greetings, Anouk >>>>>> On Nov 29, 2009, at 2:07 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> So what's the problem here? Does the government (or insurance) >>>>>>> routinely buy computers for blind people, or just the screen reader? If >>>>>>> the former, I can see why this is a problem, but if the latter, the >>>>>>> good news is that any Mac comes with built-in access anyway, not >>>>>>> requiring any extra access add-ons. >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA >>>>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY >>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 28, 2009, at 7:50 PM, anouk radix wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello, A friend of mine told me this morning htat in Belgium windows >>>>>>>> screenreader companies have won a lobby that effectively bans blind >>>>>>>> people in belgium from getting a mac from their insurance (or the >>>>>>>> government). Because the screenreader people say it is unusable. >>>>>>>> I think this is a very sad state of affairs indeed and I hope this >>>>>>>> wont happen in other countries as well. >>>>>>>> Greetings, Anouk >>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group >>>>>>>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group >>>>>>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group >>>>>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> >> > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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