Chris, very good points and I have to agree with your observations. On Nov 30, 2009, at 7:31 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
> The problem, in the US at least, isn't the actual accessibility of any of > the solutions but, rather, how entrenched the products and sales people have > become in the culture of said agencies. FS has held a big lead for a long > time and virtually every AT trainer in the US knows at least one FS > salesperson personally - something entirely out of the reach of their > competitors. > > FS can also offer bundle deals that include JAWS, MAGic, braille displays, > embossers, CCTV, PAC Mate, etc. The one stop shopping provides a number of > conveniences for the people making the purchasing decisions: namely, the > total price of the bundle but, more so, the single point of contact for > anything that goes wrong with their blind/low vision products. > > On Windows, we have a terrific example of how "competition" has failed > miserably in this product category. Two years ago this coming January, > Serotek announced its System Access To Go (SATOGO) product that any user > could employ without cost from any computer attached to the Internet. At the > same time, they launched their new version of the full System Access at > around $300, $700-800 less than JAWS and Window-Eyes. Last year at ATIA, > they announced the "death of the SMA" and promised that all upgrades will > always come at no cost to the consumers - saving another $250 every couple of > years from the more popular screen access utilities. > > Using a decent computer one can get at Best Buy with any of the System Access > solutions provides a really good platform at a really excellent price point. > SA also tends to lead the Windows screen reader field being the first to run > on 64-bit versions of Windows, being the only that provides access to the > Vista and W7 dictation software, being the first to embrace Aria and web 2.0 > application support (JAWS has leap frogged them in comprehensive but I'll > wager that SA will catch up in the recent future) and SA has led in lots of > other areas as well. > > So, in the Adam Smith/Milton Friedman definition of capitalism, a similar > product at a lower price will cause the invisible hand of the market forces > to "push" consumers to a much more affordable and also high quality product > like SA. > > So many things have gone wrong in this niche , though, that it doesn't > resemble a market that any of the capitalist theorists (Smith, Weber) or the > modern small government, low regulation advocates (Friedman, Greenspan) would > actually recognize as a "free" system. > > Some problems are where capitalism itself falls apart in the world of access > technology. The reality of the problem in this space is that, as I mentioned > yesterday, most organizations/agencies never go past JAWS in their > evaluations so they hardly know that other Windows solutions exist, let alone > Macintosh and GNU/Linux. Most consumers who come to such agencies have never > heard of any of the screen access tools on any of the different platforms and > are happy to get what they are given, which, of course, is JAWS. > > Scott is absolutely correct when he mentions a failure of socialism but not > in the area of choice as the Europeans tend to have more options presented > than we do in the US. The socialism fail comes from and is the source of the > high prices of the AT products. I'm not sure if it's on an EU basis or > country by country (things may have changed since I actually studied this > problem) but the Europeans set a maximum price they will pay for AT and their > regulations do not allow for said AT to be sold for less in other nations to > avoid being ripped off by the publishers and manufacturers. The negative > effect of this policy is that the Europeans maximum price is often > considerably higher than that which natural market forces would find. > > This is less obvious in software as FS and others can make the claim that the > Swedish version of their product is actually a different program and charge > much more than they get for the ENglish version - if you have some spare time > and are entirely bored, you can find the dealer web sites in a lot of > different countries and see how JAWS is about twice the price in languages > other than English or Spanish depending, of course, on exchange rates. > > But, if you take a look at braille displays, you will notice that nearly > every manufacturer sells their products for approximately the same price for > 40, 70 and 80 cell displays. This price is a few bucks less than the > European maximum and, because braille hardware sales are much bigger in > Europe than the rest of the world, it would be bad business and illegal in > the EU to sell the devices for less in countries that don't provide a maximum. > > For the actual consumers in Europe, this policy works reasonably well as > their health insurance pays for the products anyway and they get really nice > stuff at no cost to themselves. Conversely, though, prices outside of Europe > must be pegged to the prices charged in Europe so are unnaturally inflated > pretty much everywhere outside of Europe. > > Hence, the European national health care systems alone set the price for > hardware that people with vision impairment use around the rest of the world. > [A bit of disclosure: I may have a bit of a bias toward System Access because > Mike Calvo, Serotek CEO, and I have been friends for about a million years > and I've enjoyed giving them free advice and seeing them turn my ideas into > actual features. I do, however, believe that the pricing issues including > their no cost SATOGO and low priced full solution are accurate and represent > the failure of an ugly marketplace.] > > Happy Economizing, > cdh > > , > On Nov 29, 2009, at 2:10 PM, carlene knight wrote: > >> I think that part of the problem also is getting these agencies to realize >> how accessible OSX is now. this has been my personal experience. >> On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:47 AM, Scott Howell wrote: >> >>> Chris, >>> >>> That is ridiculous because funding isn't being just spent on "bombs" as you >>> say, but on every other possible and pointless program like bailouts of >>> banks, auto manufactures, and now the possibility of health care. Of course >>> lets try not to stray down the path of politics. I will agree that many of >>> these people have loss their jobs do to "other funding priorities", >>> whatever those may be for that state and the government. >>> Maybe it is a burden for some to purchase their own computers, but that is >>> an entirely separate issue from having choice. I agree that if someone is >>> not familiar with adaptive technology and has no idea what they need, it is >>> more difficult to support offering them something you can't support as an >>> agency. I do however believe that agencies should offer choice and be able >>> to support choice. Of course everything always ties directly back to >>> funding, but I would submit that a Mac would be less expensive. Well to be >>> honest, this thread probably has run its course and I think we agree on >>> many points all be it from a different point of view. :) >>> On Nov 29, 2009, at 8:10 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: >>> >>>> This should be moved to the bs list... >>>> >>>> Getting government agencies or the non-profits with whom they contract to >>>> provide such services in the US is really a hard problem to solve in the >>>> current economic climate. >>>> >>>> First off, a lot of people in the consumer services side of these >>>> organizations have been laid off so we can buy bombs for use in >>>> Afghanistan and support the Israeli military machine. Thus, there are a >>>> lot fewer trainers out there than just a few years ago. >>>> >>>> Most, if not all of these trainers know JAWS and ZoomText very well and, >>>> in some of the wealthier areas, they know Window-Eyes and MAGic as well. >>>> These agencies and NGO have already invested a lot of money in training >>>> their trainers and are reticent to spend their scarce dollars on training >>>> for another system like Macintosh that is, in their minds, unproven. >>>> >>>> Some states require that these agencies provide consumers with a choice >>>> but accept that having JAWS and Window-Eyes is an actual choice. Those >>>> who, for one reason or another, select Window-Eyes will probably get >>>> substandard training as the JAWS juggernaut is nearly unbreakable. >>>> >>>> These programs are as "socialist" as those in Europe. In the US, we can >>>> buy a Macintosh with our own scratch which, for many, is a real burden and >>>> may not be possible. When you add that a local Lighthouse will help them >>>> get a decent Windows machine and give them JAWS at no cost to the consumer >>>> which will make choosing a Macintosh and paying out of pocket a lot less >>>> attractive. >>>> >>>> Until the funding improves again, the roadblocks of shrinking training >>>> dollars and a system that has virtually no one to actually evaluate the >>>> alternatives will remain broken. So much for private enterprise... >>>> >>>> cdh >>>> >>>> PS: Do not take my comments and think I am a socialist - I believe that >>>> government can do things where the market fails and proprietary access >>>> technology is sold in a vacuum that is almost entirely non-competitive >>>> means that private enterprise has failed and, in order to provide people >>>> with disabilities any chance of participating in the proverbial quest for >>>> the American Dream, the government needs to be involved. >>>> >>>> So, I believe that the free market usually functions very well but in >>>> certain areas it hasn't enough capital to lubricate the system so it has >>>> fallen into an FS monopoly. According to a recent study, JAWS has over >>>> 70% of the users and Window-Eyes (number 2 in the study) has about 11% >>>> with all others, including Mac, splitting up the rest. >>>> >>>> I can go on forever about the nasty business practices, litigation rather >>>> than innovation and other maneuvers that FS uses to increase its >>>> stranglehold on this market but I've said it so many times that I'm >>>> starting to bore myself. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 28, 2009, at 11:28 PM, Jake wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Scott >>>>> Although I agree with you completely, I'd argue that this situation >>>>> exists in the US as well. Has anyone successfully gotten the >>>>> government to buy them a Mac? I've never heard of a case, and the >>>>> reasons given are similar and some are even open about dealing >>>>> exclusively with one company or another. Ours, too, is a socialist >>>>> program gone wrong. >>>>> I'm actually curious now, has anyone gotten a Mac from any sort of >>>>> government agency and if so, what country? >>>>> In either case, though, let one thing be clear. You always have >>>>> choices, and you've the power to make them. I got my Mac because I >>>>> purchased it. Yes, I had to save up for a bit to do it, but it was >>>>> well worth it. You always have that option no matter what your >>>>> government decides to provide for you. So a ban on blind people >>>>> getting a Mac does not exist. Maybe if enough exercise their power of >>>>> choice we might counter the FUD spread by these blind companies. Come >>>>> to think of it, that's the only way I can think to counter it. >>>>> The sad thing is that these types of lobbies are all too successful >>>>> when they crop up, because most people will listen to anything as long >>>>> as the person speaking it acts like they know what they're talking >>>>> about. Marketing hype, in other words, and it's a very good way to get >>>>> at those in governments who know absolutely nothing about blindness or >>>>> access technology of any kind. That's why we do need to exercise our >>>>> freedom of choice. No one knows what product is better for a person >>>>> than the person in that situation. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 28, 6:52 pm, Scott Howell <scooting...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> Well there ya go, a socialist program run totally amuck. If your going >>>>>> to get something for nothing, your going to be strapped with someone's >>>>>> idea of what you can and can't have. Yep, quite unfair, but obviously >>>>>> some screen reading developers are afraid of the Mac's ability. Well I'm >>>>>> sure my comments won't set well with some, but it is what it is and I'm >>>>>> glad I can make my own choices. >>>>>> On Nov 28, 2009, at 8:29 PM, anouk radix wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, I got this message from a friend (Paul Erkens) who will join the >>>>>>> forum soon (his status is pending now). I am not really up to scratch >>>>>>> with the general regime in belgium of giving access technology to blind >>>>>>> people. I am just afraid that this will spread to the Netherlands. >>>>>>> Here I know htat high school and university students that are blind can >>>>>>> get a laptop, a screenreader and a braille display from the state. You >>>>>>> dont have to pay for anything in this scenario. In this case clearly >>>>>>> getting a mac with infovox voices and a braille display would be the >>>>>>> cheapest scenario but if the screenreader manufacturers start a lobby >>>>>>> here as well... >>>>>>> Once again I am not sure how it all works out in Belgium. >>>>>>> Greetings, Anouk >>>>>>> On Nov 29, 2009, at 2:07 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> So what's the problem here? Does the government (or insurance) >>>>>>>> routinely buy computers for blind people, or just the screen reader? >>>>>>>> If the former, I can see why this is a problem, but if the latter, the >>>>>>>> good news is that any Mac comes with built-in access anyway, not >>>>>>>> requiring any extra access add-ons. >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA >>>>>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY >>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 28, 2009, at 7:50 PM, anouk radix wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello, A friend of mine told me this morning htat in Belgium windows >>>>>>>>> screenreader companies have won a lobby that effectively bans blind >>>>>>>>> people in belgium from getting a mac from their insurance (or the >>>>>>>>> government). Because the screenreader people say it is unusable. >>>>>>>>> I think this is a very sad state of affairs indeed and I hope this >>>>>>>>> wont happen in other countries as well. >>>>>>>>> Greetings, Anouk >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group >>>>>>>>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group >>>>>>>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group >>>>>>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> >> > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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