[issues] the curious one enters wearing a trench coat...
Greetings, Hello, my name is curious... this wonderful mailinglist was introduced to me by Vinnie Surmone... so if there any referal bonuses please aply them accordingly. Early observations... there seems to be alot of knee jerking on here.. If someone says something you disagree with it's best to understand where they are comming from before you do ANY talking... especialy if you have any intentions of shapping thier views. Just because someone questions screenshots somewhere doesn't mean they are advocating censorship. If you kneejerk a response all your going to do is cause a flame war since no real conversaion or consideration happens... and the list begins to deteriorate into a mess... (this is a BAD thing)... Also labling people, ideas... breeds sterio(sic) types... which tend to lead deeply into misunderstandings and communications.. An idea for either enhancement on this mailinglist or a possible future list would be to have the use of the list licensed.. ie. to use the list you must agree to atempt to fully understand where the other person is comming from... and not to lable anyone in the list Even though Vinnie introduced me to this list... you'll find there are areas where she and I don't see eye to eye at all... though we each have strong respect (well at least I know I have strong respect for her's) for each other's views and constantly strive to seek out what/why the other belives what they belive.. In forums like this... I belive having people that truly seek to understand leads to the most succesful (interms of entertainment, knowledge, and experince) list... I'll proly wait till some of the flames die down on here before I bring up issues I would realy like some input on... don't try to judge me... for I would never claim to judge you. I suppose I should put up some statement as to who I am... but I'll just point to my website listed below.. and perhaps add more data laterz Hugs to those that want one, Peace be with all of you, Curious PS if you made it this far you deserve a cookie sorry I'm all out :( /"\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign [EMAIL PROTECTED] X - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail http://www.curious.org/ / \ - NO Word docs in e-mail"This quote is false." -anon [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Responsible Adolts. WARNNG: RANT
On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Simon Britnell wrote: > Some people *want* that - on both sides. I don't understand it, but > some people seem to like that white picket fence stuff. Yeah. I've noticed that too. I guess I don't see the point in getting annoyed over that. If they *want* their relationships to be that way, then fine. If they *want* tacky pink flamingos in their yard, whatever :P It's when it starts affecting other people that it really bothers me. > Gender politics be d*mned. There's no gender monopoly on having "bad" > reasons to want a partner. True :) But there is a faction of folks (in the U.S.) who would like to force the picket fences on all of us, and that is worth worry about...but I didn't see Roblimo's artical as part of that..just as some nitwit with 'bad' reasoning :) there's no law against stupidity :) > > I think it's part of being a responsible adult to take care of your own > > life-- from doing the laundry to maintaining emotional well-being. > > Uh oh. Cliched phrase hits a nerve. Brace yourselves people, this > could be ugly. This intro line was written after the rant below - > here-in, the rant: > > RANT > > Yes mommy (gotta love that sarcasm). "Being a responsible adult" is a > phrase I singularly dislike. It pretty much translates to "I think you > should behave like this and if you disagree with me you're just a little > child". It tends to be used by those who think we should be "normal". > "Get a haircut and get a real job" is a more "offensive" (but probably > more honest and direct) form of the same clause. I agree. I haven't had the energy to tackle this side of the issue, and I"m glad you did. First, because it's really not good to say 'if you don't think like me, you aren't an adult' because it stops the discussion short -- there's no room for debate in there. Second, because it's degrading to children. > Ever seen someone jump from a bridge? Anyone you know ever swing > themselves from the ceiling? Ever consider doing it yourself? Ever > have a conversation with somebody clinically depressed? Every wonder > after the fact why you didn't spot the obvious pain? I can tick all > those boxes and I'm telling you that there's more to it than "maturity". > I translate your statement as "I don't want to deal with peoples > emotional cr*p.". I've lived it. Actually (and I'm saying this mostly because I'm pretty damn happy about it) for the first time in ages (I don't even remember when it started..it had stopped for a while in Cali, and I guess must have picked up in Olympia, but I don't know when) I could *count* the number of suicidal thoughts I had today. As of 10:01pm it's 23..and they were all mild. This is great because it's been months, literally, since I've had a day where I haven't gone through hours of 'you should kill yourself because' from the depths of my brain. What really peeves me about this is that the reaction from a lot of people (even mental health professionals) is that, if you talk about suicide, you are 'just trying to get attention' and won't try it. It's only if you *don't* talk about it that you're dangerous. And while, yes, if I happen to tell you I'm suicidal and scared I am trying to get your attention, it's because I think you might be able to help me stop thinking that, *not* because I need a life. (as it turns out, I had given up on getting any help and have just been living with it for the last two months or so, and toying with the idea of getting a shrink...suddenly out of the blue it's gotten better...I quit smoking last week and I'm beginnign to wonder if there's a connection, since I think it might have started when I started smoking very regularly, but I'm not sure...) The point to all that, was quite simply, I'm sick of hearing folks try to brush off people's very real problems with 'that's childish' -- it's insulting to adults in pain and it's insulting to children. If you can't say something supportive, don't say anything at all. Or at least *think* abotu what you are saying. I've lived it from the other side too, but I think everybody has... > I don't blame you, neither do I. On the other hand I consider dealing > with it a valuable contribution to the world. There are people who cope > badly with life socially, emotionally or financially, but who do a good > job & contribute to society in other ways. There are also people who > are "nurturers" who get satisfaction and fullfilment from propping up > those people. I often see self righteous "offended" peoples comments > and I wonder: How many of those people cry themselves to sleep at night > every night and how often have they considered ending it all to be out > of everybodys way. Labelling people who fail to maintain their own > emotional equilibrium or keep a tidy house as immature makes the problem > worse. Want to let them sink or swim on their own? Fine. Just don't go > throwing them heavy weights and don't stop others from jum
Re: [issues] the curious one enters wearing a trench coat...
curious wrote: > Greetings, > > Hello, my name is curious... this wonderful mailinglist was > introduced to me by Vinnie Surmone... so if there any referal bonuses > please aply them accordingly. > > Early observations... there seems to be alot of knee jerking on > here.. If someone says something you disagree with it's best to understand > where they are comming from before you do ANY talking... especialy if you > have any intentions of shapping thier views. Just because someone > questions screenshots somewhere doesn't mean they are advocating > censorship. If you kneejerk a response all your going to do is cause a > flame war since no real conversaion or consideration happens... and the > list begins to deteriorate into a mess... (this is a BAD thing)... Also > labling people, ideas... breeds sterio(sic) types... which tend to lead > deeply into misunderstandings and communications.. > > An idea for either enhancement on this mailinglist or a possible > future list would be to have the use of the list licensed.. ie. to use the > list you must agree to atempt to fully understand where the other person > is comming from... and not to lable anyone in the list > > Even though Vinnie introduced me to this list... you'll find there > are areas where she and I don't see eye to eye at all... though we each > have strong respect (well at least I know I have strong respect for > her's) for each other's views and constantly strive to seek > out what/why the other belives what they belive.. > > In forums like this... I belive having people that truly seek to > understand leads to the most succesful (interms of entertainment, > knowledge, and experince) list... > > I'll proly wait till some of the flames die down on here before I > bring up issues I would realy like some input on... don't try to judge > me... for I would never claim to judge you. > > I suppose I should put up some statement as to who I am... but > I'll just point to my website listed below.. and perhaps add more data > laterz > > Hugs to those that want one, > Peace be with all of you, > Curious > > PS if you made it this far you deserve a cookie sorry I'm all out :( > > > /"\ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign [EMAIL PROTECTED] > X - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail http://www.curious.org/ > / \ - NO Word docs in e-mail"This quote is false." -anon > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org I guess emotionally I sort of agree and not. It would be a good idea if people didn't jump to conclusions in any direction. Note, some of that is somewhat understandable. When a Christian Preacher starts talking about how we treat our kitty cats and doggies, well then one guesses often correctly the pro-life anit-abortion lecture is not far behind. AS fara s licensing goes, in your usee of the term, well I don't know. Two or Three simple house roles seem to be enough. Also I guess I get the creeps out of creeping legalismm, especially used in non-legal areas. But if that is what makes people feel comfortable it's worthwhile to think about. I dunno if it works in the net environment, In general what flame wars do is make me hold back on broaching any more controversial topics. Like when being a sysadmin or co-sysadmin of a variety of things, the unoffical rule was we never called "express your opinions" but don't get the legal system involved. It boiled down to unless, you are really certain something truly evil and rude is going on, don't bring the authorities into it, they only make a mess of things and lives. I supposed that was to use a legalisms or legal world views I previous disparaged:), well it was an unofficial sort of list of duties of system administrators, or kind of in the charter of "System Admins..." A few "cool it" messages were OK. But don't call the cops if one's "creep-o-meter" went off. As a person who by mere visual appearance sets off people's creep-o-meters then I am generally in support of such. The same way I don't feel people should have to change their nick or even their appearance to avoid srtting off people. I mean if it does no harm, then it isn't that bad. And it is oppressive to sort of try to force such things. And I would like to have a good discussion of "what images offend people..." and "Why?" and should we pay any attention to it. For example to conservative christians even dedicating a weird electronic musci album to "The Holy Ghost" is "disrespect".. . So far modulo (except for) the yelling, and the sort of popular questionable use of organismal biology in support of the status quo, it seems a strart been made. It seems a worthwhile question and would be double such if it were to take place in the context of why it bothers people (partialy done already), what messages doe it convey and in what context. In Santa Cruz, California noted for its proegreesive pol
Re: [issues] Re: Responsible Adolts. WARNNG: RANT
Okay, first, I didn't mean to start a flame-fest. Can we bring it back down to a reasonable level? On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Simon Britnell wrote: > On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:02:50 -0400 (EDT) > srl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I kinda find it offensive for anyone to more-or-less openly seek someone to be hir > > maintainer-of-all-things-domestic-and-emotional. > > Some people *want* that - on both sides. I don't understand it, but > some people seem to like that white picket fence stuff. and it's fine if they want that, but i feel like too often white-picket-fence is the normative ideal, and anyone who doesn't want it (particularly females) takes a lot of shit. > > I think it's part of being a responsible adult to take care of your own > > life-- from doing the laundry to maintaining emotional well-being. > > Yes mommy (gotta love that sarcasm). "Being a responsible adult" is a > phrase I singularly dislike. It pretty much translates to "I think you > should behave like this and if you disagree with me you're just a little > child". It tends to be used by those who think we should be "normal". > "Get a haircut and get a real job" is a more "offensive" (but probably > more honest and direct) form of the same clause. I didn't mean it that way. I actually think that what I suggested (taking care of oneself emotionally) is done by relatively few people that our culture labels "responsible adults". I think a lot of kids and non-"normal" people do a better job at emotional well-being than do people who spend lots of time trying to fit the mold. > Ever seen someone jump from a bridge? Anyone you know ever swing > themselves from the ceiling? Ever consider doing it yourself? Ever > have a conversation with somebody clinically depressed? Every wonder > after the fact why you didn't spot the obvious pain? I can tick all > those boxes and I'm telling you that there's more to it than "maturity". > I translate your statement as "I don't want to deal with peoples > emotional cr*p.". That may be how you feel about what i said based on your experience. That wasn't my sentiment. > I don't blame you, neither do I. On the other hand I consider dealing > with it a valuable contribution to the world. There are people who cope > badly with life socially, emotionally or financially, but who do a good > job & contribute to society in other ways. There are also people who > are "nurturers" who get satisfaction and fullfilment from propping up > those people. And I've seen people of various genders get royally fucked up from feeling like it was their personal mission to prop up their clinically-depressed partner. I think nurturing is all well and good, so long as one doesn't do it at the expense of hir own well-being. I've seen lots of nurturers who wouldn't have gotten depressed themselves if they'd encouraged their partners to go to therapy. > > IMO, any geek--- male, female, or otherwise--- who aspires to this almost deserves >to be single. > > Somewhat judgemental don't you think? I doubt anyone actually "aspires" > to this. I know some (apparently) happy, successful people who see each > other for only an hour or so each day. I also know some unhappy people > in this same situation. i see my SO for about that long a day. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. *shrug* I didn't mean to be offensive or judgmental with what i wrote--- i was intentionally overstating. I do think, however, that our society encourages people to find a relationship instead of learning to be whole people on their own. That's all i was saying. srl [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] the curious one enters wearing a trench coat...
((Curious send some interesting stuff I took out) Steve Kudlak promises: To proofread before sending, and not use personal slang as much. Like guess stations (as in I guess it's open the lights are on) for gas stations and repair shops. ANd to be a little less sloppy:). Have Fun, Sends Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Responsible Aults RANT=.2
Yeah "responsible adults" is kind of an irritating phrase. It is often followed by a whole set of truisms that kind of irk. I am a messy house keeper and I don't mind it. If it means living alone I will. If I had the wherewithal and needed it to have a clean house, I'd probably hire someone at good wages to do it. Clean houses always reminded me of funeral parlours, it's dead, nothing or nothing human really lives there. This may come from having had lots of fun in scuzzy situations. As far as depressed people, well I have mixed feeling about it. Sometimes one can lead people out of things. Since I tend to be a bit reactive, talking it over with friends helps. And no matter how well it is put, all the co-dependency stuff and jargon kinds of sets off my creep-o-meter. To a certain extent it seems a therapeutic fad to get bothersome problems off one's backs. As far as life to the lifelorn I still ask why do guys always seem to ask other guys, and not female friends. Note, not to set of our Australian Readers but australians of both sexes, would give me real constructive advice on how to get the person I was interested in. And it was a mix of thingsSometimes it worked. :) I don't see how this all relates to linux, other than the atmosphere places like slashdot creates. I mean it would be more fun if someone would produced a good comment to it on slashdot. to counter the "where can I find one" thing there. And the article above it is GOOD as I muttered, I mean not only do I feel we don't want linux being like a "boy's club" but I don't want it being the "spy on people" network. Or the "let's write profiling software, sort of things..." Since we know what it has been to be a weirdo and outsider, we should be gentle to our fellow outsiders and not let them be oppressed. So I think and feel these things are evil and typical high school administrator behavior. Sigh... Well enough muttered Have Fun, Sends Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Responsible Adolts. WARNNG: RANT
On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, srl wrote: > Okay, first, I didn't mean to start a flame-fest. Can we bring it back > down to a reasonable level? I don't think anyone here is flaming. Why don't you think it's a reasonable level and what would be? > and it's fine if they want that, but i feel like too often > white-picket-fence is the normative ideal, and anyone who doesn't want it > (particularly females) takes a lot of shit. agreed, too. We aren't arguing mutually-exclusive points here > I didn't mean it that way. I actually think that what I suggested (taking > care of oneself emotionally) is done by relatively few people that our > culture labels "responsible adults". I think a lot of kids and > non-"normal" people do a better job at emotional well-being than do people > who spend lots of time trying to fit the mold. True enough. I didn't read Simon's response as attacking *you*, btw, but the general 'mature, responsible adult' attitude, which you (possibly completely unintentionally, apparently not fully intentionally :) ) invoked. Again, we aren't actually arguing mutually exclusive points :) > That may be how you feel about what i said based on your experience. That > wasn't my sentiment. It really wasn't clear in your post which one you meant. I considered responding with something similar (I probably wouldn't have put as much emotion in it, which is, in part, what I think you're reacting to, though I'm hardly omniscient :) , but it *wasn't* clear, and that attititude is hurting people -- not *your* attitude, but *that* attitude...) > And I've seen people of various genders get royally fucked up from > feeling like it was their personal mission to prop up their > clinically-depressed partner. I think nurturing is all well and good, so > long as one doesn't do it at the expense of hir own well-being. I've > seen lots of nurturers who wouldn't have gotten depressed themselves if > they'd encouraged their partners to go to therapy. I'll agree with the fact that nurturers need to watch their own well-being as well (It's bitten me a few times). I'm not sure I agree with the therapy statement, but my problems with the psych establishment are long and varied. I expect there's just no easy answer to the question of 'what do you do with an SO that's determined to off themselves?' or even 'what do you do with yourself/an SO when it's just gotten to be too much?' > I didn't mean to be offensive or judgmental with what i wrote--- i was > intentionally overstating. I do think, however, that our society > encourages people to find a relationship instead of learning to be whole > people on their own. That's all i was saying. Agreed. You just managed to say it in a way that was a little insulting to a few of us (at least two of us). Neither of us (well, I didn't, and I didn't read Simon's reply as, though if he says he did, you may certainly laugh at me and tell me to shut my big mouth) was attacking you, merely what you said, which largely doesn't appear to be what you meant it to say :) Vinnie (yeah, communicating in email has it's challenges) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] the curious one enters wearing a trench coat...
curious wrote: > An idea for either enhancement on this mailinglist or a possible > future list would be to have the use of the list licensed.. ie. to use the > list you must agree to atempt to fully understand where the other person > is comming from... and not to lable anyone in the list Hm. No, I think that's a bad idea. "Free and open exchange of ideas" and all that. Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm going to have as few restrictions like that on my lists as possible. Things that are discouraged are: 1) flames (which are different than heated debates) 2) being off topic (if you want to go off topic, take it to "grrltalk") - deb -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
[issues] Flame war - after action report & apologies
Well, not so much a flame war as a brief exchange of fire :) My comments labelled RANT had far too much emotion in them and for that I apologise. I started trying to explain my position and ended up angry. After writing it I still felt the information content needed to be there, but couldn't see a way to cut the emotion, so I just labelled it "hazardous content" and left it. I have a few brief replies to various peoples replies to said RANT: +++ Dakota wrote: > True :) But there is a faction of folks (in the U.S.) who would like to > force the picket fences on all of us, and that is worth worry about I agree, but I never argue with anyone when I'd be just as happy to hide their body :) (no, I haven't ever done that). You can't reason with the unreasonable. > ... Roblimo's artical ... 'bad' reasoning I don't think Robs article is bad reasoning per'se. I think probably more based on poor assumptions. In some cases, maybe even the assumptions aren't that poor. People live in relationships I wouldn't dream of. Whos to say nobodys happy in an "engineered" one. As for the rest of your comments, you made my day. Good to meet another survivor. Here are a couple of things that helped me: 1) Do difficult things you value rather than easy things you enjoy. Trying to make myself happy never worked. It wasn't until I started doing things I admired that life got better. 2) Talk to ambulance people about failed suicides. The percentage of suicide attempts that make a mistake and end up maiming themselves instead is suprising. I don't fear death. Disability is another matter. +++ Srl wrote: > Okay, first, I didn't mean to start a flame-fest. Can we bring it back > down to a reasonable level? certainly. > and it's fine if they want that, but i feel like too often > white-picket-fence is the normative ideal, and anyone who doesn't want it > (particularly females) takes a lot of shit. imho, the person who gives you the most sh*t is yourself. Cultural norms are insidious like that. Nobody gives me any crap about not wanting to settle down and raise a family except me. I still think it's "cultural conditioning" that's responsible, but I'm still the one dishing out the angst. > I didn't mean it that way. Ok. The phrase hit a nerve. Sorry about the rant. > I actually think that ... taking care of oneself emotionally ... is done by relatively few ... "responsible adults". I'm not entirely sure how one goes about taking care of oneself emotionally. I introspect a lot, but it doesn't necessarily make me happy. > I think a lot of kids and non-"normal" people do a better job at emotional well-being than do people who spend lots of time trying to fit the mold. Trying to fit the mold is trying to live a lie. > And I've seen people of various genders get royally fucked up from > feeling like it was their personal mission to prop up their > clinically-depressed partner. I didn't say it was an easy or danger free passtime, just that the results are often a good thing. > I think nurturing is all well and good, so > long as one doesn't do it at the expense of hir own well-being. Absolutely. You can't help anyone if you're in the crap yourself. As the emergency services say: Safety first. Dead hero(ine)s are no use to anyone. > I've seen lots of nurturers who wouldn't have gotten depressed themselves > if they'd encouraged their partners to go to therapy. Therapy is over-rated. The nurturers in these cases get depressed because they think they're failing. > I didn't mean to be offensive or judgmental with what i wrote Ok, I accept that. > i was intentionally overstating. Dennis Leary ( a politically incorrect commedian ) does that. He offends people too. I quite enjoy his humour though. :) > I do think, however, that our society > encourages people to find a relationship instead of learning to be whole > people on their own. Society encourages a lot of things we dislike. Just remember that we're all part of the society, even the outsiders. What I'm trying to say here is: I have seen the enemy and it is us. Doh! I've got things to deal with IRL now, so I gotta go. More to follow later. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Slashdot on meeting women
On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Neil ''Fred'' Picciotto wrote: > now, the one part which i found mildly offensive was his claim that geeks > can't be supportive in a relationship. i was offended not because he was > saying this about "girl geeks", but because he was also saying it about all > geeks. and it's just plain false. my fiancee and i have been together for > over six years, and although she's not as much of a geek as me, we are both > extraordinarily supportive of each other. > > so if anything, i was offended as a geek, not as a feminist. Agreed. My SO laughed over that part. He's a geek, but a very affectionate one. -- _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net "Mars has been a tough target" -- Peter G. Neumann, Risks Digest Moderator "That's because the Martians keep shooting things down." -- Harlan Rosenthal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, retorting in Risks Digest 20.60 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Flame war - after action report & apologies
On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Simon Britnell wrote: > be there, but couldn't see a way to cut the emotion, so I just labelled > it "hazardous content" and left it. For what it's worth, I thought it was a fair way of handling the situation. My definition of flaming includes the attack being redirected at people rather than ideas, so I didn't really think we went there. I imagine we could debate the definition of flame, but I don't consdier it that important :P > I agree, but I never argue with anyone when I'd be just as happy to hide > their body :) (no, I haven't ever done that). You can't reason with the > unreasonable. friends help you move real friends help you move...bodies > I don't think Robs article is bad reasoning per'se. I think probably > more based on poor assumptions. In some cases, maybe even the > assumptions aren't that poor. People live in relationships I wouldn't > dream of. Whos to say nobodys happy in an "engineered" one. True enough. Heck, I'm told women even date men sometimes (yes, that really was a joke) > 1) Do difficult things you value rather than easy things you enjoy. > Trying to make myself happy never worked. It wasn't until I started > doing things I admired that life got better. absolutely :) There is definetly a difference between living and *living*, and for me, if I"m not doing the latter, the former is truly pointless...(unfortunetly it makes for a life story no one will believe :P ) One of my favorite poems is 'Curiousity' by Alister Reid (I may have mispelled any of those words except 'by' :) ) -- good stuff to live by. > 2) Talk to ambulance people about failed suicides. The percentage of > suicide attempts that make a mistake and end up maiming themselves > instead is suprising. I don't fear death. Disability is another > matter. That, and the fact that a botched suicide attempt may very well mean being locked up and drugged again. Life is definetly not worth living without freedom. Mostly I won't allow myself to kill myself because of the consequences should I not succeed (being locked up and drugged, plus any after effects) and because I am not making anyone tell nathan (my bson) that is idiot bmother killed herself. This would be bad. > imho, the person who gives you the most sh*t is yourself. Cultural > norms are insidious like that. Nobody gives me any crap about not > wanting to settle down and raise a family except me. I still think it's > "cultural conditioning" that's responsible, but I'm still the one > dishing out the angst. Sort of -- a lot of cultural conditioning does lead to that. As I said above though, there are those who are rather vocal about making *everyone* toe thier line, and there are a number of people who will give you shit (of course, since I cut my hair last night, I"m getting more shit than usual...something about having a fade apparently screams 'dyke' to right wing idiots in a way that having merely short hair does not..on one hand, I've only gotten two comments today..OTOH, I really don't want to hear any! :) ) > I'm not entirely sure how one goes about taking care of oneself > emotionally. I introspect a lot, but it doesn't necessarily make me > happy. Yeah. If you ever figure it out, be sure to give me the clue, too :P I spend way too much time introspecting, and occasionaly wonder if it's part of my problem. Lately I've just been trying to take care of myself physically and things have looked a little better, but it's too soon for me to trust that it's going to stay better (I can be such a pessemist at times :) ) > Therapy is over-rated. The nurturers in these cases get depressed > because they think they're failing. Not to mention bad therapy can be worse than no therapy at all. And sometimes it's really hard to tell a bad therapist if one is already having problems (and if one wasn't, then one probably wouldn't be looking for a therapist) > Society encourages a lot of things we dislike. Just remember that we're > all part of the society, even the outsiders. What I'm trying to say > here is: I have seen the enemy and it is us. Yeah, mobs are different from individuals, and that gets confusing, darn it! :) Vinnie -- Reality is a formality, an agreed upon set of lies -- J.D. Catron Obligatory pathetic website at http://george.he.net/~drachen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Flame war - after action report & apologies
Simon Britnell wrote: > As for the rest of your comments, you made my day. Good to meet another > survivor. Here are a couple of things that helped me: > 2) Talk to ambulance people about failed suicides. The percentage of > suicide attempts that make a mistake and end up maiming themselves > instead is suprising. I don't fear death. Disability is another > matter. One of the things that keeps me alive is the fear of disabling myself and making my situation worse. It can really work. I also keep the 'Razors pain you' poem in my head. And yes, I know the author and the name but both escape me right now. > Srl wrote: > > and it's fine if they want that, but i feel like too often > > white-picket-fence is the normative ideal, and anyone who doesn't want > it > > (particularly females) takes a lot of shit. > > imho, the person who gives you the most sh*t is yourself. Cultural > norms are insidious like that. Nobody gives me any crap about not > wanting to settle down and raise a family except me. I still think it's > "cultural conditioning" that's responsible, but I'm still the one > dishing out the angst. Completely agreed. I taught myself to stop seeing my family's adoration of my niece as an indictment on my not providing one, and I enjoy Ashleigh a lot more now. But I /still/ have trouble with people saying 'you're married? When are you having kids?' Sgh. > I'm not entirely sure how one goes about taking care of oneself > emotionally. I introspect a lot, but it doesn't necessarily make me > happy. I'm trying counselling. I don't like it so far - it tends to leave me worse than I was. I suspect that if I hadn't healed myself a lot before I tried it, I'd be a danger to myself. (So far I've never been a danger to others. Something I'm proud of. Car keys stay firmly in the handbag, not in the hand, when I'm depressed.) Jenn V. -- Humans are the only species to feed and house entirely separate species for no reason other than the pleasure of their company. Why? [EMAIL PROTECTED]Jenn Vespermanhttp://www.simegen.com/~jenn/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Women and the Open Source Community (was screenshots)
On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Kelly Lynn Martin wrote: > Every cultural group should be free to make its own choices amongst > morally neutral practices (the classic example of this being whether > one cremates or buries one's dead); but no cultural group has any > right to maintain a morally reprehensible cultural practice, with no > regard given to whether the practice itself is consider morally > justified within that culture. A practice that is morally neutral under most circumstances is not necessarily morally neutral in ALL circumstances. Fro example, the above example is a very real issue of sanitation in those communities and cultures where a good portion of the land is beneath the water table. As a guess, the Dutch probably tend to cremate rather than bury. Which brings up the example of what happens to observant jews who die in the Netherlands? (random morbid curiosity) Or Muslims, since they follow the same law. -- _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net "Mars has been a tough target" -- Peter G. Neumann, Risks Digest Moderator "That's because the Martians keep shooting things down." -- Harlan Rosenthal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, retorting in Risks Digest 20.60 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Responsible Aults RANT=.2
On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Steve Kudlak wrote: > Clean houses always reminded me of funeral parlours, it's dead, nothing > or nothing human really lives there. LOL -- my apartment definitely looks "lived in." > I don't see how this all relates to linux, other than the atmosphere > places like slashdot creates. I mean it would be more fun if someone > would produced a good comment to it on slashdot. to counter the "where > can I find one" thing there. I think one of the reasons housework came up is that women are still expected, by and large, to do the most of it. -- _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net "Mars has been a tough target" -- Peter G. Neumann, Risks Digest Moderator "That's because the Martians keep shooting things down." -- Harlan Rosenthal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, retorting in Risks Digest 20.60 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Female Objectification of men (was: Screenshots)
J B wrote: > But does it seem overblown when somebody is freaked out about something and > articulates it clearly and why, and wonders: "Well do we want this kind of > atmosphere for this thing?" Is that a valid question, yeah it is. Should we > talk about without shouting...Well at least I think so. Am I bemused how > this is supposed to destroy civilization? To quote a famous robot: "Does Not > Compute! Does Not Compute!" > > > What I mean when I say it will destroy the American society is that most of > the children of today are being raised to expect the they have the right to > always feel good about everything that they do. As we all know, this is not > reality...I mean, in the RealWorld (tm), if you lose a $30Million contract, > is your boss going to come into your offcie and say..."That is okayas > loang as you feel good about it." HELL NOthe boss is going to comein > and say"YOUR FIRED..." A prime example is the new spelling and the new > math...as long as the students feel gud about thimselfz thin it iz ok to > spel "immproperly," and 1+1=3 > > What we are raising here is a group of spineless, snivelers who feel that > the world needs to be handed to them on a plate...not the great > old-fashioned American work ethic of "work hard and you can accomplish > anything." > > Nuff Sed... > > __ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org Well I think it is kind of silly to make this argument. But discussing it takes us far afield from linux. I mean I have been in "working class town", from whence I went to West Coast Techiedom, and back for an extended visit to "working class town with dying industries". I went to a Catholic High School and it was tracked. The bottom two tracks for a long time never took the SAT etc. They were sent to shop, any many of them can't really do anything beyond the simplest math. My had to go to work at 14 aunts, still ask me about anything hairy or complicated, and I have taught them how to use some techno-gadgets, with relative ease. But there is a lot of things they just don't know. Anyway this is not linux, other than I can say that almost all programmers and system types I know do quote "work hard" in fact are considered "obsessive" by many... Lazy they aren't, their ideas about work are kind of broad, and not the "old world" compartmentalized factory, where one person does one task and that is it. In fact all geeks I know seem to work hard, be generally bright and creative. So it seems to me things HAVE IMPROVED since high school. I can't see any of this "sniveling..." stuff. I mean there have been layabouts for a long time and sometimes even slackers come up with great ideas, and even had them implemented. And though the inventor of perl claims to be he isn't But anyway that's my thoughts, and I don't feel like inflicting anyone with much more on this. I don't want to see discussions quashed over what I see are the usual "the world is going to hell in a hand basket..." or someone's feeling that they have the golden rules given by nature, when it is cobbled to together and rather questionably biology and genetics. So I will shut up on this topic. It is if anyone is really energetic to discuss it, well then email me. Unless a bunch people say "we want to talk about imaginative biology" and "the Dumbing of America..." Have Fun, Sends Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Flame war - after action report & apologies
On Tue, 26 Oct 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Simon Britnell wrote: > > 2) Talk to ambulance people about failed suicides. The percentage of > > suicide attempts that make a mistake and end up maiming themselves > > instead is suprising. I don't fear death. Disability is another > > matter. > > One of the things that keeps me alive is the fear of disabling myself > and making my situation worse. It can really work. Actually, as someone who believes in reincarnation, the thought of being immobile in diapers works for me. :) > Completely agreed. I taught myself to stop seeing my family's adoration > of my niece as an indictment on my not providing one, and I enjoy > Ashleigh a lot more now. But I /still/ have trouble with people saying > 'you're married? When are you having kids?' Even if you're NOT married it happens. I went to Crate and Barrel to buy patio furniture and it happened. > I'm trying counselling. I don't like it so far - it tends to leave me > worse than I was. I suspect that if I hadn't healed myself a lot > before I tried it, I'd be a danger to myself. (So far I've never been > a danger to others. Something I'm proud of. Car keys stay firmly in the > handbag, not in the hand, when I'm depressed.) I have this sort of dual problem: I never understood depressed people until my husband died. And then I understood completely. But it's hard for me to relate to that place now. But for a while I really did understand. I took anti-depressants, which helped enormously. It was like a cloud lifted. -- _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net "Mars has been a tough target" -- Peter G. Neumann, Risks Digest Moderator "That's because the Martians keep shooting things down." -- Harlan Rosenthal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, retorting in Risks Digest 20.60 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Responsible Aults RANT=.2
I think one of the reasons housework came up is that women are still expected, by and large, to do the most of it. -- Not in my house My SO and I share housework equallyor I do it while she is off running with the kids. And my exwife never did ANY housework...if we wanted clean clothesI did them. If we wanted clean dishes, I washed 'em. __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Flame war - after action report & apologies
On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Simon Britnell wrote: > My comments labelled RANT had far too much emotion in them and for that > I apologise. Why? :) It's OK, I don't think you were out of line. > > ... Roblimo's artical ... 'bad' reasoning > > I don't think Robs article is bad reasoning per'se. I think probably > more based on poor assumptions. In some cases, maybe even the > assumptions aren't that poor. People live in relationships I wouldn't > dream of. Whos to say nobodys happy in an "engineered" one. His assumptions were extremely poor. My guess is that Rob is very insecure about his technical skills. Which brings up the next point... I can't imagine living life as buck-toothed trailer trash with a "helpmeet" in a purportedly high-tech job (one that usually pays well enough to live in a *real* house...). But hey. :) -- _Deirdre * http://www.linuxcabal.net * http://www.deirdre.net "Mars has been a tough target" -- Peter G. Neumann, Risks Digest Moderator "That's because the Martians keep shooting things down." -- Harlan Rosenthal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, retorting in Risks Digest 20.60 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Responsible Aults RANT=.2
On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, J B wrote: > Not in my house heh. in my house the female *always* does the housework okay, so I live alone.. (well, with a female cat, but she *never* helps :) ) > My SO and I share housework equallyor I do it while she is off running > with the kids. > > And my exwife never did ANY housework...if we wanted clean clothesI did > them. If we wanted clean dishes, I washed 'em. The point is that that is the exception -- becoming less so, but the 'rule' (in this case, more common situation) is that housework is 'women's work' -- and again, if a particular set of individuals don't mind that, then that's fine -- it just shouldn't be considered the one right way.. Vinnie -- Reality is a formality, an agreed upon set of lies -- J.D. Catron Obligatory pathetic website at http://george.he.net/~drachen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Responsible Aults RANT=.2
> > I think one of the reasons housework came up is that women are still > expected, by and large, to do the most of it. > My housemate is male are we are both in similar fields (I do web dev, he does techdesk), but I've always been a bit more successful than him. Despite the fact that we do the same work, he seems to expect me to "do the vaccuming and that" because he "hates that kind of thing", but the few times he has attempted to clean the house never really gets clean. I don't think his mother ever taught him how to dust, etc. Now I do do most of the cleaning, mainly because I can only deal with a certain level of messiness, and I figure since I'm not going to be living there forever, no biggie. We haven't really scuffled about that. What I did get snippy about was when he came home one night and was telling me about his buddy's wife, who makes dinner, cleans the house, minds all the bills, etc, while his buddy goes out (always w/o her) and spends the dough. Roommie followed it up with "I want a wife just like that". I just looked at him and said (rather tersely), "You are speaking to the _wrong_ person about that". You know, I'm a very busy woman, I work more hours than he does, plus I volunteer on the weekends, and dedicate a minimum two evenings a week to my band, but I still find time to clean, pay my bills, play with my pets, run errands and go out. I guess when its all said and done, its not that my roommate is being too "macho" or anything like that...he's just plain lazy and wants to be taken care of. "my $.02" Jacque [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Responsible Aults RANT=.2
I was always taught that a woman's place was wherever she wanted to beof course my mother was one of the first feministshe had the picture of the woman peeing in the urinal on her bathroom wall in the mid 70's - The point is that that is the exception -- becoming less so, but the 'rule' (in this case, more common situation) is that housework is 'women's work' -- and again, if a particular set of individuals don't mind that, then that's fine -- it just shouldn't be considered the one right way.. Vinnie -- Reality is a formality, an agreed upon set of lies -- J.D. Catron Obligatory pathetic website at http://george.he.net/~drachen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Responsible Aults RANT=.2
On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, J B wrote: > I was always taught that a woman's place was wherever she wanted to beof > course my mother was one of the first feministshe had the picture of the > woman peeing in the urinal on her bathroom wall in the mid 70's exactly Vinnie (who can pee in a urinal too..the things one learns on roadtrips :P ) -- Reality is a formality, an agreed upon set of lies -- J.D. Catron Obligatory pathetic website at http://george.he.net/~drachen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Flame war - after action report & apologies
On Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:48:41 -0700 (PDT), Deirdre Saoirse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >But for a while I really did understand. I took anti-depressants, >which helped enormously. It was like a cloud lifted. For me, it's more like it keeps the storms away. Still lots of clouds, but they're not nearly as threatening. (I probably need a higher dose.) Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Flame war - after action report & apologies
On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Simon Britnell wrote: > > and it's fine if they want that, but i feel like too often > > white-picket-fence is the normative ideal, and anyone who doesn't want > it > > (particularly females) takes a lot of shit. > > imho, the person who gives you the most sh*t is yourself. Cultural > norms are insidious like that. Nobody gives me any crap about not > wanting to settle down and raise a family except me. I still think it's > "cultural conditioning" that's responsible, but I'm still the one > dishing out the angst. good point. i think this might depend on age and subculture, though--- females i know who are over 30 seem to get increasing numbers of comments from family members about getting married. > > I actually think that ... taking care of oneself emotionally ... is > done by relatively few ... "responsible adults". > > I'm not entirely sure how one goes about taking care of oneself > emotionally. I introspect a lot, but it doesn't necessarily make me > happy. I think it varies from person to person, but for me it includes: -spending time with my own emotions/thoughts before talking about them -writing rather than venting onto partners/friends, when i can -figuring out what makes me happy and doing it -when I'm unhappy about something, taking steps to change the circumstance or my own perception of it does that make sense? > > I've seen lots of nurturers who wouldn't have gotten depressed > themselves > > if they'd encouraged their partners to go to therapy. > > Therapy is over-rated. The nurturers in these cases get depressed > because they think they're failing. I wasn't suggesting therapy as a cure-all. I was saying that in some cases, paying someone to listen and make constructive suggestions is better than running a nurturer ragged. srl [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
Re: [issues] Re: Responsible Aults RANT=.2
Vinnie Surmonde wrote: > > > And my exwife never did ANY housework...if we wanted clean clothesI did > > them. If we wanted clean dishes, I washed 'em. > > The point is that that is the exception -- becoming less so, but the > 'rule' (in this case, more common situation) is that housework is 'women's > work' -- and again, if a particular set of individuals don't mind that, > then that's fine -- it just shouldn't be considered the one right way.. > > Vinnie > My husband and I look at it this way: I'm currently staying at home to raise our son (who's almost three). I'm doing it because I want to, and love it (in other words, I'm not doing it because it's 'my place' to do so *chuckle*). From the time Mark leaves for work until the time he gets home, I tend to everything that needs looking after in the home. Primarily, my son. By the time hubby gets home, I've done as much as I could do in that (about 10 hour) period. When he walks in the door, the responsibilities are shared equally. If he's more tired than I am, I make dinner, or vice versa. We both do laundry and house cleaning, and he does most of the evening child rearing, as him and Aerik haven't seen each other all day. I can't picture it any other way - I really enjoy what I do, but I would go nuts if I had to do it 24/7 (hats off to single parents!). Mark loves what he does, but he rarely works late (or if he has to, he usually comes home for dinner first, making his family top priority) and has based his career around the three of us. In other words, he does little travel, and won't take jobs which would mean long hours away from us. What I find really funny is when people I meet assume I do all the work around here; it is so far from the truth! I think most of our 'harmonic' co-habitation has to do with good communication. When either of us needs a break from house/parenting duties, we let the other know. We try not to play the "I've had a harder day than you have" game, but we're not always successful *laugh*. But anyway, it's a decent system and we're both happy with it :) When Aerik (and any future children) are older, I'll go back to work. That'll be a whole new ball of wax for us, and we'll have to re-adjust again. I can't imagine coming home from a tiring day at the office and arguing over who has to make dinner. Again, congrats to those who can do it! :) Anyway, this message is only remotely on-topic, I think. It's woman's issues, but definately not linux related...Um...except my husband works in the linux community, I used to, and I'm a woman! *sigh of relief* ;) Take care, all :) Amanda [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.linuxchix.org
