Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?

Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:14:48 -0800 (PST) terry mcintyre wrote: >Heading back to the central idea, of tuning the predicted winning rates and evaluations: it might be useful to examine lost games, look for divergence between expectations and reality, repair the predictor, and test the new predictor aga

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

Because I am just starting with Lisp, I find this an easy place to start: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/index.html In the intro is the line: For example, one vacation, having a week or so to hack Lisp, I decided to try writing a version of a program--a system for breeding genetic alg

Re: [computer-go] RE: Microsoft Research Lectures: Akihiro Kishimoto

5 ... 4 WW. 3 BBB..W. 2 ...B.W. 1 ..B..W. ABCDEFG Ha, I give blacks more room to play, and shape database did not find it, or maybe I used it wrong :). But this search find B2 now in 1258437 nodes :| which is quite much and takes couple seconds. Don't know but really hope it goes bett

Re: [computer-go] RE: Microsoft Research Lectures: Akihiro Kishimoto

I am sure that it is good, can't compare node counts for anything which uses any static knowledge. 2282 is current count and you can increase or decrease those proofCounter/disProofCounter limits and it still works but don't know exactly when it is doing it right. t. hArri - Original Messag

[computer-go] RE: Microsoft Research Lectures: Akihiro Kishimoto

My tsumego applet determines without a search that black can kill, and white might live if he moves first. http://www.andromeda.com/people/ddyer/go/shape/ShapeApplet.html A table lookup is a little better than searching 162438 nodes :) >> > For example current version(not released) goes trought

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

> Or you use Erlang as Vlad suggested. I've started something like this > and I'm using libEGO for the move generation. ... Here is the erlang vs. C++ language benchmark comparison: http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=hipe&lang2=gpp And here is LISP SBCL: http://shoo

Re: [computer-go] Microsoft Research Lectures: Akihiro Kishimoto

Now it is only 2282 nodes, and it still has maybe bugs. It returns immediately which is good, I have hopes for that it comes better even it has no bugs because it lacs move ordering logic, If I only find couple bugs its start to be what I expected. Then need to make desision is it good enough to

RE: [computer-go] Non-global UCT

Many Faces' life and death search is best first and probability based, but I don't use UCT to select moves. I select the move that has the highest probability of changing the value of the root (from success to fail or vice versa). I don't use MC to evaluate the endpoints. I look forward down one

RE: [computer-go] Microsoft Research Lectures: Akihiro Kishimoto

This is awful for such a simple problem. Many Faces' static evaluation function sees that the white group is unsettled, and the life/death search finds the B2 killing move in one node (since after B2 the group is dead with no further search, and the move generator returns B2 as the first candidate

Re: [computer-go] Microsoft Research Lectures: Akihiro Kishimoto

Actually adding lines for second player that if it has zero stones it is win for first player. Thats true at least normal life-dead problems :|, not maybe some seki kind of things but for this it changed node count for 2282 nodes. with 7 empty places, should'nt it be less than 7**3 = 2187 ? Ye

Re: [computer-go] Microsoft Research Lectures: Akihiro Kishimoto

How much nodes does it uses for this ? B B B B B B B B B B B . B B B B B B B . B w w w . B B B . . . w B B B . . w . B B B A B C D E F G Its same, I define area for movegenerator allowed points are same in both cases. It lets white play after whole first group is killed at least that increases

Re: [computer-go] low-hanging fruit - yose

On Dec 12, 2007 7:44 PM, Álvaro Begué <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Maybe I did something wrong, but dimwit aces this one: > > 10k 100k1M > > dimwit-0.48r 1.000 1.000 1.000 > > This is the output at the end of those searches: > > score=1 thr=5

Re: [computer-go] low-hanging fruit - yose

Maybe I did something wrong, but dimwit aces this one: 10k 100k1M dimwit-0.48r 1.000 1.000 1.000 This is the output at the end of those searches: score=1 thr=5 moves=20393 PV=(10001) B8(9407) D6(369) H9(361) J9(9) D4(4) D3 score=0.8 thr=

Re: [computer-go] low-hanging fruit - yose

Hi Gunnar, Gunnar Farnebäck: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >Heikki Levanto wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 10, 2007 at 04:08:48PM -0500, Don Dailey wrote: > >> Would you rather be 95% confident of a win or 90% confident?There is > >> only 1 correct answer to that question. > > > > Yes, if you can offer me relia

Re: [computer-go] Non-global UCT

Sure, I use MC UCT to test for absolute or conditional life and death of a?string. I think it works well. -Original Message- From: Chris Fant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: computer-go Sent: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 6:03 pm Subject: [computer-go] Non-global UCT Is anyone using UCT (or similar) for

[computer-go] Non-global UCT

Is anyone using UCT (or similar) for non-global searches such as connectivity/tactics? ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/

Re: [computer-go] low-hanging fruit - yose

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007, Heikki Levanto wrote: Compare these two positions: playout_benchmark 1 = Initial board: komi 7.5 A B C D E F G H J 9 . . . . . O O O O 9 8 O O O O O O O O O 8 7 O O O O O O O O O 7 6 O O O O O O O O O 6 5 # # # # # # # # # 5 4 O O O # # # # # # 4 3 O O O O . # # # # 3

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

There are a bucket load of lisp and Scheme implementations for the JVM at: http://www.robert-tolksdorf.de/vmlanguages.html I work in Java, so anything that works with that good by me... I'm personally a little disappointed that the effort to implement emacs in Java hasn't really gathered steam.

Re: [computer-go] Microsoft Research Lectures: Akihiro Kishimoto

Le mercredi 12 décembre 2007, Harri Salakoski a écrit : > Such comment just take my word back little it is maybe awesome but I can't > say is it or not, as have still bugs left. > > E E E > E E E > BEE > WWWEBEE > E E EWBEE > E E WEBEE > ABCDEFG > For example current version(not releas

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

From: Stefan Nobis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> terry mcintyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Any of those with recent Lisp experience have any opinions about > multicore capabilities? Multithreading is not available in ANSI CL, but most implementations support multithreading in some ways. AFAIK SBCL, Co

Re: [computer-go] ELO Ratings of move pattern

On Dec 12, 2007 4:27 PM, Álvaro Begué <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Clearly I'm missing something, because I still don't understand. Let's > > take a simple example of a move is on the 3rd line and has a gamma value of > > 1.75. What is the equation or sequence of discrete values that I can > > t

Re: [computer-go] ELO Ratings of move pattern

Jason House wrote: On Dec 12, 2007 3:09 PM, Álvaro Begué <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: On Dec 12, 2007 3:05 PM, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: On Dec 12, 2007 2:59 PM, Rémi Coulom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [computer-go] ELO Ratings of move pattern

On Dec 12, 2007 3:31 PM, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Dec 12, 2007 3:09 PM, Álvaro Begué <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Dec 12, 2007 3:05 PM, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 12, 2007 2:59 PM, Rémi Coulom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >

Re: [computer-go] low-hanging fruit - yose

Heikki Levanto wrote: > On Mon, Dec 10, 2007 at 04:08:48PM -0500, Don Dailey wrote: >> Would you rather be 95% confident of a win or 90% confident?There is >> only 1 correct answer to that question. > > Yes, if you can offer me reliable confidence numbers. We all (should) know > that MC eval

Re: [computer-go] Where and How to Test the Strong Programs?

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007, Don Dailey wrote: Christoph, Let me know when you are finished, what name you are playing under and I will do the bayeselo thing to get a better figure. I am playing using the 'tast-3k' account. Right, now I have 71 games and a rating of 1979 ELO. Also, I can throw

Re: [computer-go] ELO Ratings of move pattern

On Dec 12, 2007 3:09 PM, Álvaro Begué <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Dec 12, 2007 3:05 PM, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Dec 12, 2007 2:59 PM, Rémi Coulom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Do you mean a plot of the prediction rate with only the > > > > gamma of

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

I saw this on the Gambit-C web page: "With appropriate declarations in the source code the executable programs generated by the compiler run roughly as fast as equivalent C programs." This is another way of saying it run pretty fast but not as fast as C. - Don Urban Hafner wrote: > > On Dec 1

Re: [computer-go] Re: Lisp time

I thinks it's very difficult to outperform C since C really is just about at the level of assembly language. To beat C I think you would have to write a better compiler.It wouldn't be about the language but about the compiler.I'm sure a really good language compiler can already beat a cr

Re: [computer-go] ELO Ratings of move pattern

On Dec 12, 2007 3:05 PM, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Dec 12, 2007 2:59 PM, Rémi Coulom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Do you mean a plot of the prediction rate with only the > > > gamma of interest varying? > > > > No the prediction rate, but the probability of the training

Re: [computer-go] ELO Ratings of move pattern

On Dec 12, 2007 2:59 PM, Rémi Coulom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Do you mean a plot of the prediction rate with only the > > gamma of interest varying? > > No the prediction rate, but the probability of the training data. More > precisely, the logarithm of that probability. I still don't know

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

On Dec 12, 2007, at 20:28 , terry mcintyre wrote: Any of those with recent Lisp experience have any opinions about multicore capabilities? What I've googled so far looks a bit rudimentary - mostly based on unix fork semantics. I'm looking for something much lighter-weight, Erlang-style,

Re: [computer-go] ELO Ratings of move pattern

Jason House wrote: On Dec 6, 2007 11:38 AM, Rémi Coulom <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: Jason House wrote: > > This may serve as a good test of if there is enough data to assign > values to the patterns. I did not mention this in my paper, but you c

Re: [computer-go] Re: Lisp time

On Dec 12, 2007 2:32 PM, Stefan Nobis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [...] and sometime it's even possible to outperform C code. I just don't believe this. I propose a simple experiment to see who is right. You pick a simple algorithm which you claim Lisp can run faster, you propose the fastest Li

Re: [computer-go] ELO Ratings of move pattern

On Dec 6, 2007 11:38 AM, Rémi Coulom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Jason House wrote: > > > > This may serve as a good test of if there is enough data to assign > > values to the patterns. > > I did not mention this in my paper, but you can rather easily estimate > uncertainty margins around Elo va

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

terry mcintyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Any of those with recent Lisp experience have any opinions about > multicore capabilities? Multithreading is not available in ANSI CL, but most implementations support multithreading in some ways. AFAIK SBCL, Corman Lisp, OpenMCL and some more have tru

Re: [computer-go] Re: Lisp time

Dave Dyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The biggest underlying reason is the multiple constraints on > memory management; But these constraints are not absolute truths. At least not in Common Lisp: The language spec is not as constrained as described here and the compilers add some additional fr

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

On Dec 12, 2007 7:28 PM, terry mcintyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What I've googled so far looks a bit rudimentary - mostly based on unix fork > semantics. I'm looking for something much lighter-weight, Erlang-style, > which could support thousands of cheap concurrent threads. In Erlang, the > c

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

Any of those with recent Lisp experience have any opinions about multicore capabilities? What I've googled so far looks a bit rudimentary - mostly based on unix fork semantics. I'm looking for something much lighter-weight, Erlang-style, which could support thousands of cheap concurrent threads

[computer-go] Re: Lisp time

These are true, but not the underlying problem. The biggest underlying reason is the multiple constraints on memory management; a) since the data is typed rather than the pointers, every chunk of memory has to be self identifying, not just for the garbage collector, but also so (plus a b

Re: [computer-go] Re: Lisp time

Dave Dyer wrote: > At 05:24 AM 12/12/2007, Don Dailey wrote: > >> I've looked into this a bit. My preference would be scheme and it's >> my understanding that it may be a bit more efficient. >> > > If you're worried about efficient use of the machine, stay away from lisp > and scheme.

[computer-go] Re: Lisp time

At 05:24 AM 12/12/2007, Don Dailey wrote: >I've looked into this a bit. My preference would be scheme and it's >my understanding that it may be a bit more efficient. If you're worried about efficient use of the machine, stay away from lisp and scheme. Despite the claims of "it can be as fast

[computer-go] Re: Lisp time

At 05:24 AM 12/12/2007, Don Dailey wrote: >I've looked into this a bit. My preference would be scheme and it's >my understanding that it may be a bit more efficient. If you're worried about efficient use of the machine, stay away from lisp and scheme. Despite the claims of "it can be as fast

Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?

Terry, Yes, I agree with everything here I think.Nobody ever suggested that we should not improve the accuracy of the probability estimator. In fact almost all the progress so far has been based on doing exactly that. The programs are getting slower but smarter. - Don terry mcintyre w

Re: [computer-go] Some Games against MoGo

On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 17:24 +0100, Robert Jasiek wrote: > I have played 10 9x9, 6.5 komi, 5 min. games against MoGo release 3 > using GoGui's command line "\GoGui\MoGo\mogo.exe" under Vista > Ultimate 32b on a Core2Duo E6600. The typical mogo.exe's usage of both > processors is ca. 48.5% - 50.5%

[computer-go] Re: Lisp time

My program was written in lisp, so naturally I concur. I'm not actively using lisp any more, but I will offer various dialects of common lisp as the consensus choice of dialect. My favorite implementation is lispworks. The "personal edition" is free and ought to be adequate for research. The b

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

I am presently engaged in the same search, although I run on Macs and am willing to accept either a GUI or a command-line environment. GUI debuggers can be handy. Cheers, David On 12, Dec 2007, at 7:09 PM, Nick Apperson wrote: I've been (and still am) a die hard supporter of C++, but sinc

Re: [computer-go] Python bindings for libego?

Heikki Levanto wrote: > I was thinking that it could be quicker to do prototyping in something > like python, while having fast low-level functions in C. Since we > already have Lukasz Lew's ego library, I wonder if anyone has written > a wrapper around it to call it from python (or ruby, perl, or

Re: [computer-go] Some Games against MoGo

> Subjectively, on 9x9 MoGo's human rank might indeed be about 3d for the > first few games against a particular human opponent. However, its style > and weaknesses can be read and so it should be weaker after more games. > It does occasionally play high dan moves though and is creative enough > to

[computer-go] Some Games against MoGo

I have played 10 9x9, 6.5 komi, 5 min. games against MoGo release 3 using GoGui's command line "\GoGui\MoGo\mogo.exe" under Vista Ultimate 32b on a Core2Duo E6600. The typical mogo.exe's usage of both processors is ca. 48.5% - 50.5%, i.e., one core is used fully while Windows' system services,

Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Álvaro Begué <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Why does anybody care about how human-like our go programs' playing style is? When we design airplanes we don't care about how bird-like their flying style is; we care about objective measures like speed, acceleration, energ

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

I've not used scheme recently, but I certainly recall it fondly. When I we were taught it, the language definition was famously shorter than the index to the definition of the Common LISP. cheers stuart On 12/12/2007, Peter Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Chez Scheme is a good choice. For a

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

Chez Scheme is a good choice. For a book, you want Dybvig's "The Scheme Programming Language"; it's available in dead-tree form or (free) on-line: http://www.scheme.com/tspl3/ Peter Drake http://www.lclark.edu/~drake/ On Dec 12, 2007, at 1:09 AM, Nick Apperson wrote: I've been (and still

Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?

Hear, hear! The question is not one of abandonment of the recognition of uncertainty. Like Don Dailey, I think it's brilliant that UCT programs explicitly manage uncertainty and winning probabilities. My concern is that existing implementations have some serious but possibly fixable flaws in tho

Re: [computer-go] Microsoft Research Lectures: Akihiro Kishimoto

Such comment just take my word back little it is maybe awesome but I can't say is it or not, as have still bugs left. E E E E E E BEE WWWEBEE E E EWBEE E E WEBEE ABCDEFG For example current version(not released) goes trought 162438 nodes before it proofs black B2 kills(without any ord

Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?

Álvaro Begué wrote: > Why does anybody care about how human-like our go programs' playing > style is? When we design airplanes we don't care about how bird-like > their flying style is; we care about objective measures like speed, > acceleration, energy efficiency... The merits of go programs sho

Re: [computer-go] A thought about Bot-server communications

Take this with a grain of salt, since I am a novice, but my understanding of the distinction is this: violating the ko rule flows from an incorrect decision made by the player; playing a stone of the wrong color from external mishap - the stone should not have been in the player's bowl. Usually on

Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?

Why does anybody care about how human-like our go programs' playing style is? When we design airplanes we don't care about how bird-like their flying style is; we care about objective measures like speed, acceleration, energy efficiency... The merits of go programs should be based basically on thei

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

I've looked into this a bit. My preference would be scheme and it's my understanding that it may be a bit more efficient. - Don Urban Hafner wrote: > > On Dec 12, 2007, at 10:09 , Nick Apperson wrote: > >> I've been (and still am) a die hard supporter of C++, but since I >> program in C++ fo

Re: [computer-go] low-hanging fruit - yose

Vlad Dumitrescu wrote: > Hi, > > Thank you all who answered my question. I think I understand better > what each of you talks about. I still have the feeling that at some > level different people think about different things when referring to > some notion, but it's probably just me. > > On Dec 1

Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?

Russ Williams wrote: > On Dec 11, 2007 8:53 PM, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> The play-out portion is a crude approximation for imagination. We >> basically look at a board and imagine the final position.The MC >> play-outs kill the dead groups in a reasonably accurate (but

Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?

David Fotland wrote: > I don't think traditional go programs "tally features and weights". They > estimate the final score. > When I say "tally features and weights" I really mean that they estimate the final score. They basically tally the number of intersections expected to be won, althou

Re: [computer-go] A thought about Bot-server communications

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Matthew Woodcraft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Don Dailey wrote: Ok, let's get into semantics. Is superko an illegal move? Is it simply forbidden or is it part of the rules that you lose immediately if you play it? In card games that is called an irregulari

Re: [computer-go] Microsoft Research Lectures: Akihiro Kishimoto

Thank you, Harri. It sounds promising. I will have a look at that. Jacques. I coded algorithm based for that representation, it really looks another awesome thing worth of investigating. Planning to use that for at least small board search investigations as it has quite much power. That is

Re: [computer-go] Lisp time

On Dec 12, 2007, at 10:09 , Nick Apperson wrote: I've been (and still am) a die hard supporter of C++, but since I program in C++ for work (we develop gamelike software) I get tired of C++ day in and out. I'd also like to push myself to learn some new things. Lisp seems to me like a lan

Re: [computer-go] low-hanging fruit - yose

On Dec 11, 2007 3:34 AM, terry mcintyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But what about doing a top-level analysis of the board just before starting > playouts, offering some hints > to the more interesting moves? During the middle game, and especially during > the endgame, top-level > analysis can pro

Re: [computer-go] low-hanging fruit - yose

Hi, Thank you all who answered my question. I think I understand better what each of you talks about. I still have the feeling that at some level different people think about different things when referring to some notion, but it's probably just me. On Dec 10, 2007 11:26 PM, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PR

Re: [computer-go] Where and How to Test the Strong Programs?

Le mercredi 12 décembre 2007, Ben Lambrechts a écrit : > > > How do AGA ratings compare to KGS? > Sensei's Library is your friend ;o) > http://senseis.xmp.net/?RankWorldwideComparison > I believe this page has not been updated since last year change on kgs ranking scale. Kgs have the big advant

Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?

Raymond Wold wrote: >I can code an algorithm that evaluates simple ladders correctly. >I'll repeat that. I can code a program that reads ladders better than a >pure MC program without knowledge of ladders. I can beat it. Human >knowledge programmed into a computer that does that one thing, that >

[computer-go] Lisp time

I've been (and still am) a die hard supporter of C++, but since I program in C++ for work (we develop gamelike software) I get tired of C++ day in and out. I'd also like to push myself to learn some new things. Lisp seems to me like a language I could really come to respect. I run linux (no wind

Re: [computer-go] How does MC do with ladders?

On Tue, 2007-12-11 at 21:17 -0500, Don Dailey wrote: > But what does this have to do with anything? What we are "arguing" > about is whether it's good to try to estimate probabilities. That's > what you have been critical of. Adding ladder code will improve any > evaluation function if done c