On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>>> On 12/2/08, Andrew Nixon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>>>> On 12/1/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Send ubuntu-uk mailing list submissions to >>>>>>>>> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk >>>>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of ubuntu-uk digest..." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Today's Topics: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1. Re: OT CPU Advice (Seb Ward) >>>>>>>>> 2. Re: OT CPU Advice (Rob Beard) >>>>>>>>> 3. Re: OT CPU Advice (gav) >>>>>>>>> 4. Re: OT CPU Advice (Chris Coulson) >>>>>>>>> 5. Re: OT CPU Advice (Rob Beard) >>>>>>>>> 6. Re: OT CPU Advice (Rob Beard) >>>>>>>>> 7. Re: OT CPU Advice (gav) >>>>>>>>> 8. Re: OT CPU Advice (Darren Mansell) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Message: 1 >>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 14:05:04 +0100 >>>>>>>>> From: Seb Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice >>>>>>>>> To: ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com >>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>>>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>>>>>> URL: >>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/attachments/20081201/573bffc7/attachment-0001.htm >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Message: 2 >>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:52:42 +0000 >>>>>>>>> From: Rob Beard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice >>>>>>>>> To: British Ubuntu Talk <ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com> >>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; >>>>>>>>> delsp=yes >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 1 Dec 2008, at 10:24, Darren Mansell wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I sold my EEE PC about 10 months ago and for (almost) the same >>>>>>>>>> money >>>>>>>>>> built >>>>>>>>>> a very respectable rig with bits from ebuyer. My spec was: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Decent Abit mainboard >>>>>>>>>> AMD Athlon X2 4200+ >>>>>>>>>> 2GB Corsair standard stuff >>>>>>>>>> 2 x 250GB Samsung SATA HDD's (in Linux software MD RAID 0, it >>>>>>>>>> rocks) >>>>>>>>>> dual layer DVD-+RW >>>>>>>>>> 19" wide HannsG monitor >>>>>>>>>> Good quality case from eBay with decent PSU >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It was a grand total of about ?300 but I had to make sure I got >>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>> components. Most important is the PSU as Rob says. I've always >>>>>>>>>> liked >>>>>>>>>> Abit >>>>>>>>>> motherboards. Foxconn are actually pretty good from my experience. >>>>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>>>> used to make Intel's own brand boards, not sure if they still do. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The disk speed makes this computer feel very fast. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I heard bad things about Foxconn boards and Linux a while ago, >>>>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>>> remember if it was posted here. I'm just a bit dubious now. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm currently running an Athlon X2 3800+ and that seems pretty >>>>>>>>> quick >>>>>>>>> (I did have a Phenom X4 9600 but it died over the weekend and the >>>>>>>>> Athlon X2 was the only thing I had which could chuck in the board). >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> could also recommend the Pentium Dual Core chips as they're also >>>>>>>>> pretty quick (I had one before upgrading to the Phenom, it's now >>>>>>>>> sitting in my wife's PC). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:11:46 +0000 >>>>>>>>> From: "gav" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice >>>>>>>>> To: British Ubuntu Talk <ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com> >>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 01:52:42PM +0000, Rob Beard wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I'm currently running an Athlon X2 3800+ and that seems pretty >>>>>>>>>> quick >>>>>>>>>> (I did have a Phenom X4 9600 but it died over the weekend and the >>>>>>>>>> Athlon X2 was the only thing I had which could chuck in the >>>>>>>>>> board). >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> could also recommend the Pentium Dual Core chips as they're also >>>>>>>>>> pretty quick (I had one before upgrading to the Phenom, it's now >>>>>>>>>> sitting in my wife's PC). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've not really found a massive multi-core chip to be needed on a >>>>>>>>> modern >>>>>>>>> Linux desktop, recently I've moved over to an Atom processor on my >>>>>>>>> desktop, >>>>>>>>> this board: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.ebuyer.com/product/147222 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Works beautifully under Ubuntu and Debian for me and the whole >>>>>>>>> system >>>>>>>>> runs >>>>>>>>> with an 80W power supply, rather than the hundreds of Watts these >>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>> rig >>>>>>>>> machines use. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Gav Ford >>>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>>>> http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk >>>>>>>>> I think we need to: Reverse the polarity of the communications >>>>>>>>> circuit >>>>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>>>>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >>>>>>>>> Name: not available >>>>>>>>> Type: application/pgp-signature >>>>>>>>> Size: 197 bytes >>>>>>>>> Desc: Digital signature >>>>>>>>> Url : >>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/attachments/20081201/5e3cc570/attachment-0001.pgp >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Message: 4 >>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:21:15 +0000 >>>>>>>>> From: "Chris Coulson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice >>>>>>>>> To: "British Ubuntu Talk" <ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com> >>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2008/12/1 Rob Beard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 1 Dec 2008, at 10:24, Darren Mansell wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > I sold my EEE PC about 10 months ago and for (almost) the same >>>>>>>>>> > money >>>>>>>>>> > built >>>>>>>>>> > a very respectable rig with bits from ebuyer. My spec was: >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > Decent Abit mainboard >>>>>>>>>> > AMD Athlon X2 4200+ >>>>>>>>>> > 2GB Corsair standard stuff >>>>>>>>>> > 2 x 250GB Samsung SATA HDD's (in Linux software MD RAID 0, it >>>>>>>>>> > rocks) >>>>>>>>>> > dual layer DVD-+RW >>>>>>>>>> > 19" wide HannsG monitor >>>>>>>>>> > Good quality case from eBay with decent PSU >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > It was a grand total of about ?300 but I had to make sure I got >>>>>>>>>> > good >>>>>>>>>> > components. Most important is the PSU as Rob says. I've always >>>>>>>>>> > liked >>>>>>>>>> > Abit >>>>>>>>>> > motherboards. Foxconn are actually pretty good from my >>>>>>>>>> > experience. >>>>>>>>>> > They >>>>>>>>>> > used to make Intel's own brand boards, not sure if they still >>>>>>>>>> > do. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > The disk speed makes this computer feel very fast. >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I heard bad things about Foxconn boards and Linux a while ago, >>>>>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>>>> remember if it was posted here. I'm just a bit dubious now. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk >>>>>>>>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Rob, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You're probably referring to this: >>>>>>>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=869249 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>>>>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>>>>>>> URL: >>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/attachments/20081201/edf17f68/attachment-0001.htm >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Message: 5 >>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 16:43:17 +0000 >>>>>>>>> From: Rob Beard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice >>>>>>>>> To: British Ubuntu Talk <ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com> >>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Chris Coulson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You're probably referring to this: >>>>>>>>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=869249 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yeah that was it. TBH, there's not much difference in price >>>>>>>>> between >>>>>>>>> some of the Foxconn boards and other boards from MSI/Gigabite/ASUS >>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Message: 6 >>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 16:46:54 +0000 >>>>>>>>> From: Rob Beard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice >>>>>>>>> To: British Ubuntu Talk <ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com> >>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> gav wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I've not really found a massive multi-core chip to be needed on a >>>>>>>>>> modern >>>>>>>>>> Linux desktop, recently I've moved over to an Atom processor on my >>>>>>>>>> desktop, >>>>>>>>>> this board: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.ebuyer.com/product/147222 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Works beautifully under Ubuntu and Debian for me and the whole >>>>>>>>>> system >>>>>>>>>> runs >>>>>>>>>> with an 80W power supply, rather than the hundreds of Watts these >>>>>>>>>> big >>>>>>>>>> rig >>>>>>>>>> machines use. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I guess it depends on what you use your machine for. I *could* >>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>> use >>>>>>>>> of all 4 cores on the Phenom but not very often, juging by the >>>>>>>>> system >>>>>>>>> monitor the majority of the time most of the cores were sat idle at >>>>>>>>> about 1.2GHz and it was only specific things I did that actually >>>>>>>>> used >>>>>>>>> more than two cores. I do however sometimes tax the system so I >>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>> think an Atom would meet my needs. If I didn't play HD video on my >>>>>>>>> other half's PC then an Atom would probably do her. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm considering an Atom Dual Core for my server (it's currently >>>>>>>>> running >>>>>>>>> an Athlon 1400) although I'm not sure what to do after reading >>>>>>>>> this.... >>>>>>>>> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-atom-efficiency,2069.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Message: 7 >>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:10:54 +0000 >>>>>>>>> From: "gav" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice >>>>>>>>> To: British Ubuntu Talk <ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com> >>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 04:46:54PM +0000, Rob Beard wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I'm considering an Atom Dual Core for my server (it's currently >>>>>>>>>> running >>>>>>>>>> an Athlon 1400) although I'm not sure what to do after reading >>>>>>>>>> this.... >>>>>>>>>> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-atom-efficiency,2069.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The Atom seems to work fine for DVD playback, if that helps you >>>>>>>>> judge >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> the video side of things, I use an external USB DVD on the machine. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've no interest in BluRay yet so I can't tell you how it handles >>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From that review, it looks like the chipset it holding the Atom >>>>>>>>> back, >>>>>>>>> 4W >>>>>>>>> for the processor but 22W for the chipset seems backwards. However >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> chipset is well supported under Linux, especially the hassle free, >>>>>>>>> open >>>>>>>>> driver 3D support. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Gav Ford >>>>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>>>>> http://revford.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk >>>>>>>>> I think we need to: Repair the kettle flow >>>>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>>>>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >>>>>>>>> Name: not available >>>>>>>>> Type: application/pgp-signature >>>>>>>>> Size: 197 bytes >>>>>>>>> Desc: Digital signature >>>>>>>>> Url : >>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-uk/attachments/20081201/182e8b0c/attachment-0001.pgp >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Message: 8 >>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:50:11 +0000 >>>>>>>>> From: Darren Mansell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] OT CPU Advice >>>>>>>>> To: British Ubuntu Talk <ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com> >>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:21:15 +0000, "Chris Coulson" >>>>>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> 2008/12/1 Rob Beard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Dec 2008, at 10:24, Darren Mansell wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > I sold my EEE PC about 10 months ago and for (almost) the same >>>>>>>>>>> > money >>>>>>>>>>> > built >>>>>>>>>>> > a very respectable rig with bits from ebuyer. My spec was: >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > Decent Abit mainboard >>>>>>>>>>> > AMD Athlon X2 4200+ >>>>>>>>>>> > 2GB Corsair standard stuff >>>>>>>>>>> > 2 x 250GB Samsung SATA HDD's (in Linux software MD RAID 0, it >>>>>>>>>>> > rocks) >>>>>>>>>>> > dual layer DVD-+RW >>>>>>>>>>> > 19" wide HannsG monitor >>>>>>>>>>> > Good quality case from eBay with decent PSU >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > It was a grand total of about ?300 but I had to make sure I got >>>>>>>>>>> > good >>>>>>>>>>> > components. Most important is the PSU as Rob says. I've always >>>>>>>>>>> > liked >>>>>>>>>>> > Abit >>>>>>>>>>> > motherboards. Foxconn are actually pretty good from my >>>>>>>>>>> > experience. >>>>>>>>>>> > They >>>>>>>>>>> > used to make Intel's own brand boards, not sure if they still >>>>>>>>>>> > do. >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > The disk speed makes this computer feel very fast. >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I heard bad things about Foxconn boards and Linux a while ago, >>>>>>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>>>>> remember if it was posted here. I'm just a bit dubious now. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk >>>>>>>>>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Rob, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You're probably referring to this: >>>>>>>>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=869249 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Very interesting. Back in my R+D days for a used-to-be well known >>>>>>>>> british >>>>>>>>> PC manufacturer I had to do a lot with Windows WHQL testing. WHQL >>>>>>>>> (Windows >>>>>>>>> Hardware Quality Labs) is basically Microsoft paying hardware >>>>>>>>> manufacturers >>>>>>>>> to break support for Linux or any other OS. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There are test suites called the HCT tests. The mainboard BIOS, VGA >>>>>>>>> card >>>>>>>>> BIOS, optical firmwares etc all had to be bodged to work with these >>>>>>>>> tests. >>>>>>>>> Microsoft would give you kickbacks via the MDP (market development >>>>>>>>> program) >>>>>>>>> if your stuff was all WHQL certified. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course every system integrator is then under pressure to get >>>>>>>>> every >>>>>>>>> piece >>>>>>>>> of hardware in their PC's WHQL certified and in turn put pressure >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> hardware manufacturers to alter the BIOS/firmware to make it work >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> Windows HCT. As money talks they have no time left to look at Linux >>>>>>>>> support. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It's all just another way Microsoft have to make Linux look like >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> cheap >>>>>>>>> joke. Open standards are their enemy. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> ubuntu-uk mailing list >>>>>>>>> ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com >>>>>>>>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> End of ubuntu-uk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 2 >>>>>>>>> **************************************** >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com >>> >> >> -- >> Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com >> > > -- > Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com >
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