Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Hi Isuru, That sounds very promising. I will report back ... - Marc On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 10:59 AM Isuru Fernando wrote: > Hi Marc, > > > * Every mach binary should have a minimum deployment target of macOS > 10.13 for Intel and macOS 11 for Arm. > > Yes, we have this condition implicitly,

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Hi Marc, > * Every mach binary should have a minimum deployment target of macOS 10.13 for Intel and macOS 11 for Arm. Yes, we have this condition implicitly, but I made it explicit in the PR now. > * Every load path for every mach binary in the sage tree must either be a standard system library

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Mon, Apr 28, 2025 at 5:00 PM Marc Culler wrote: > What do you mean by "trying it out"? I am confident that it builds sage. > But there are other requirements. > > I don't have any simple way of running that build right now. I don't want > to install a bunch of software on my build system whi

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

What do you mean by "trying it out"? I am confident that it builds sage. But there are other requirements. I don't have any simple way of running that build right now. I don't want to install a bunch of software on my build system which has the potential for breaking my current build system for

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Marc, do you mind trying out https://github.com/3-manifolds/Sage_macOS/pull/82 ? Isuru On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 12:44 PM Dima Pasechnik wrote: > > > On Tuesday, April 22, 2025 at 11:42:21 AM UTC-5 Michael Orlitzky wrote: > > On 2025-04-22 10:19:54, Dima Pasechnik wrote: > > > > That's the first

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Tuesday, April 22, 2025 at 11:42:21 AM UTC-5 Michael Orlitzky wrote: On 2025-04-22 10:19:54, Dima Pasechnik wrote: > > That's the first time I see a complaint that the Apple's libraries used for > Python or its modules are not accepted. > This is something we can fix, to an extent. And s

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Wednesday, April 23, 2025 at 2:35:48 PM UTC-5 Dima wrote: I haven't built any Python dependencies (unless testing stuff) for years, and I suppose this applies to the vast majority of people doing Sage development or installation from source. Why do you need to build them? Can you start with a

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 11:07 AM Marc Culler wrote: > The venv directory gets named with the version of python used by the > python3 spkg, even if the provided "system python" has a different > version. Using --with-sage-venv=no seemed to avoid that quirk, but somehow > caused the sage build sy

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Wed, Apr 23, 2025 at 11:07 AM Marc Culler wrote: > > > On Monday, April 21, 2025 at 9:12:01 AM UTC-5 Michael Orlitzky wrote: > > IIRC you are building everything (except python, now) from SPKGs. If > so and if you are sure that your newly-built python was linked against > the sage copies of bz

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Monday, April 21, 2025 at 9:12:01 AM UTC-5 Michael Orlitzky wrote: IIRC you are building everything (except python, now) from SPKGs. If so and if you are sure that your newly-built python was linked against the sage copies of bzip2, zlib, etc., you can just ignore the DEPCHECK (edit it out

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Tue, Apr 22, 2025 at 11:42 AM Marc Culler wrote: > However, FYI, it looks like scipy is also using the Accelerate framework. > > scipy/linalg/_fblas.cpython-313-darwin.so loads > /System/Library/Frameworks/Accelerate.framework/Versions/A/Accelerate > > and the dylibs included with the scipy bi

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On 2025-04-22 10:19:54, Dima Pasechnik wrote: > > That's the first time I see a complaint that the Apple's libraries used for > Python or its modules are not accepted. > This is something we can fix, to an extent. And surely we can adjust the > check for xz. > > Regarding macOS native bzip2, it j

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Tue, Apr 22, 2025 at 8:53 AM Marc Culler wrote: > Here is one thing that I find strange. The only external libraries that > are needed to compile python on macOS are openssl and (if you want the real > gnu thing) readline. I know, because I have compiled python on macOS. The > dependencies

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On 2025-04-21 19:41:35, Marc Culler wrote: > > Except that it is impossible for the newly-built python to be linked > against the > sage copies of those libs, because the hewly-built python needs to be built > *before* sage is built, and therefore before those libs have been built. The sage build

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Here is one thing that I find strange. The only external libraries that are needed to compile python on macOS are openssl and (if you want the real gnu thing) readline. I know, because I have compiled python on macOS. The dependencies like libbz2, liblzma, libffi, libz and even libsqlite3 are

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Mon, Apr 21, 2025 at 9:41 PM Marc Culler wrote: > Thank you Michael, > > My first guess is that > SAGE_SPKG_DEPCHECK([bzip2 liblzma libffi zlib], ... > > > I think that your guess is correct. > > IIRC you are building everything (except python, now) from SPKGs. If > so and if you are sure that

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Thank you Michael, My first guess is that SAGE_SPKG_DEPCHECK([bzip2 liblzma libffi zlib], ... I think that your guess is correct. IIRC you are building everything (except python, now) from SPKGs. If so and if you are sure that your newly-built python was linked against the sage copies of b

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Sun, Apr 20, 2025 at 4:26 PM Marc Culler wrote: > I got the impression from comments in this thread that it would be > possible to build python with the prefix directory of my choice and use > that python as the "system python" for a build of Sage. So I built a > relocatable python 3.13 and i

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On 2025-04-20 14:26:12, Marc Culler wrote: > However, I am not able to find any way to convince Sage's configure script > to use my python. No matter what I try, it declares that there is no > suitable system python. What does config.log say is the reason for rejection? My first guess is that

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Saturday, April 19, 2025 at 7:12:16 AM UTC+8 Nils Bruin wrote: So a middle ground would be to offer a security blanket during the transition: change the default behaviour of the python package for now to NOT build, but as a transition measure offer a configuration flag that restores the abil

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

I got the impression from comments in this thread that it would be possible to build python with the prefix directory of my choice and use that python as the "system python" for a build of Sage. So I built a relocatable python 3.13 and installed it in a prefix directory. Since the python inst

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 6:32 PM William Stein wrote: > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 4:12 PM Nils Bruin wrote: > > > > On Friday, 18 April 2025 at 10:07:12 UTC-7 dim...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > Nobody is going to "break" anything. You'll just need a proper Python to > install Sage, like one of many pr

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 4:12 PM Nils Bruin wrote: > > On Friday, 18 April 2025 at 10:07:12 UTC-7 dim...@gmail.com wrote: > > Nobody is going to "break" anything. You'll just need a proper Python to > install Sage, like one of many pre-reqs already needed. > It's just fear-mongering. Building Sage

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Friday, 18 April 2025 at 10:07:12 UTC-7 dim...@gmail.com wrote: Nobody is going to "break" anything. You'll just need a proper Python to install Sage, like one of many pre-reqs already needed. It's just fear-mongering. Building Sage will be less broken this way, not more broken. It looks to

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Nobody is going to "break" anything. You'll just need a proper Python to install Sage, like one of many pre-reqs already needed. It's just fear-mongering. Building Sage will be less broken this way, not more broken. Dima On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 2:14 AM Sébastien Labbé wrote: > I have been readi

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

I have been reading this thread silently like many other similar ping-pong exchanges on sage-devel in the past years. For one time, let me grab the ball, and share my opinion: On Saturday, April 12, 2025 at 9:33:27 PM UTC+2 marc@gmail.com wrote: Please don't break our working build system

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Marc, Your response seems to suggest that Dima is claiming that your distribution of Sage is wrong or shouldn't exist. Nothing could be further from the truth. Really? What does the following mean to you? "I don't want to go into merits of the macOS app, but it's a highly non-standard by m

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Saturday, April 12, 2025 at 11:37:06 PM UTC-5 William wrote: Marc, Your response seems to suggest that Dima is claiming that your distribution of Sage is wrong or shouldn't exist. Nothing could be further from the truth. Really? What does the following mean to you? "I don't want to go int

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Sun, Apr 13, 2025 at 12:32 AM 'tobia...@gmx.de' via sage-devel < sage-devel@googlegroups.com> wrote: > Marc, what is your opinion about replacing "building from source" in the > Python spkg by "installing the prebuild pythons from > astral/python-build-standalone"? > Hi Tobias, I don't know a

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Marc, what is your opinion about replacing "building from source" in the Python spkg by "installing the prebuild pythons from astral/python-build-standalone"? Would this work for the MacOS app; and if not why? Other popular projects, like anki and influxdb, seem to use these builds for their e

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Sat, Apr 12, 2025 at 8:48 PM Marc Culler wrote: > > On Saturday, April 12, 2025 at 9:57:50 PM UTC-5 Dima wrote: > > this is what many users need - to be able to install Sage into an existing > Python environment; thus support is provided for a range of pythons. > > > That is what I said in my

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Saturday, April 12, 2025 at 9:57:50 PM UTC-5 Dima wrote: this is what many users need - to be able to install Sage into an existing Python environment; thus support is provided for a range of pythons. That is what I said in my last message. There is no need to repeat it back to me. Cat

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On 12 April 2025 14:33:03 GMT-05:00, Marc Culler wrote: >On Sat, Apr 12, 2025 at 1:01 PM Nils Bruin wrote: > >I get the impression that the concern is about maintenance load: when the >> project takes on the commitment to build python then it must update the >> python build package whenever th

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Sat, Apr 12, 2025 at 1:01 PM Nils Bruin wrote: I get the impression that the concern is about maintenance load: when the > project takes on the commitment to build python then it must update the > python build package whenever this is required for supporting current > operating systems. Appare

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Friday, 11 April 2025 at 15:55:39 UTC-7 marc@gmail.com wrote: The obvious questions which this raises and which have still not been answered here are: What is so wrong with this process? Why do we have to break it? Why can't we at least leave the Sage spkg in place until there is an

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Fri, Apr 11, 2025 at 5:55 PM Marc Culler wrote: > > If we can get back to the original topic of this thread, I would like to > report on the experiment I just finished. That experiment was to update the > python3 spkg to Python-3.13.3 (the latest python release) and then build Sage > 10.7.b

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Hey all, Here's a possible solution to this problem: https://github.com/3-manifolds/Sage_macOS/pull/82 It needs these 4 PRs in sage applied to build sage: https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pulls/isuruf I have checked that sage builds fine, but I haven't checked that the framework builds (and there

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

If we can get back to the original topic of this thread, I would like to report on the experiment I just finished. That experiment was to update the python3 spkg to Python-3.13.3 (the latest python release) and then build Sage 10.7.b0 using the updated spkg and the usual build script that I al

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On 11 April 2025 11:28:17 GMT-05:00, Marc Culler wrote: > > >On Thursday, April 10, 2025 at 9:53:04 PM UTC-5 Tobias wrote: > > >With all non-python pre-reqs in place, >just run./bootstrap and pip to build sagelib, that's all. >No need to worry about a dodgy custom venv, >unhappy ./configure,

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Thursday, April 10, 2025 at 9:53:04 PM UTC-5 Tobias wrote: With all non-python pre-reqs in place, just run./bootstrap and pip to build sagelib, that's all. No need to worry about a dodgy custom venv, unhappy ./configure, etc. > Interesting, where can I find a list of the non-python pre-

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Thu, Apr 10, 2025 at 5:41 PM Michael Orlitzky wrote: > > On 2025-04-10 12:10:07, Nathan Dunfield wrote: > > > > Interesting, where can I find a list of the non-python pre-reqs? > > "meson setup" should tell you. Some of the dependency checks it does > are not as precise as the corresponding che

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Thursday, April 10, 2025 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-5 Nathan Dunfield wrote: On Thursday, April 10, 2025 at 9:37:09 AM UTC-5 Dima wrote: On 10 April 2025 07:45:09 GMT-05:00, I wrote: >To me, a "proper Python package" is something I can install with >"random-python -m pip install blah" that pulls a

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

With all non-python pre-reqs in place, just run./bootstrap and pip to build sagelib, that's all. No need to worry about a dodgy custom venv, unhappy ./configure, etc. > Interesting, where can I find a list of the non-python pre-reqs? https://github.com/sagemath/sage/blob/871ba9daed15374

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On 2025-04-10 12:10:07, Nathan Dunfield wrote: > > Interesting, where can I find a list of the non-python pre-reqs? "meson setup" should tell you. Some of the dependency checks it does are not as precise as the corresponding check from spkg-configure.m4 (it doesn't run "maxima" and parse the ve

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Wednesday, 9 April 2025 at 16:44:31 UTC-7 dim...@gmail.com wrote: As I already explained, it's quite a stretch by Sage's standards to call python3 package standard. Because it is not tested enough; because few months into release, the supposedly stable Sage release is often not installable,

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Mon, Apr 7, 2025 at 3:25 PM Dima Pasechnik wrote: > > It's not standard - no-one nowadays builds Sage's Python, not even CI is > doing this. > > This is the point I already made. > You are the sole users of this semi-broken feature. > Well, it is a feature that is available by just setting one

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Monday, April 7, 2025 at 10:59:40 AM UTC-5 marc@gmail.com wrote: As this discussion tries to wander off into a new discussion about the uv project, I will attempt to bring it back on topic. The point is this: Currently, to build the macOS binary, we first build sage in a completely st

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Thursday, April 10, 2025 at 9:37:09 AM UTC-5 Dima wrote: On 10 April 2025 07:45:09 GMT-05:00, I wrote: >To me, a "proper Python package" is something I can install with >"random-python -m pip install blah" that pulls a binary wheel off PyPI that >just works. If we're getting close to being

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On 10 April 2025 07:45:09 GMT-05:00, Nathan Dunfield wrote: >On Thursday, April 10, 2025 at 12:07:03 AM UTC-5 Dima wrote: > >> Probably not on the build system. But the app needs to work on *any* >system. >> >>> Are you worried that sage would have trouble recognizing the python >build as

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Hello; Has anyone considered making sage as container? This will eliminate all these issues being discussed here, I would think. Google AI says this: "Container-based software delivery packages applications and their dependencies into lightweight, isolated environments called containers, enab

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Wednesday, April 9, 2025 at 2:58:51 PM UTC-5 Trevor Karn wrote: At the same time, the concession that python3.spkg *can* still provide python if really wanted helps Marc see that the MacOS app build is taken seriously. I would expect it's a major delivery platform of sagemath functionality t

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Thursday, April 10, 2025 at 12:07:03 AM UTC-5 Dima wrote: > Probably not on the build system. But the app needs to work on *any* system. > >> Are you worried that sage would have trouble recognizing the python build as valid for its purposes? > No. Because sagelib (with meson build) is al

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Wed, Apr 9, 2025 at 10:21 PM Marc Culler wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 9, 2025 at 8:07 PM Nils Bruin wrote: >> >> On Monday, 7 April 2025 at 08:59:40 UTC-7 marc@gmail.com wrote: >> >> If the Python spkg were removed we would no longer be able to start from a >> standard build of Sage. >> >> Can

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

I regularly build proper multiarch (so x86 and arm) Sage Docker containers, e.g., https://hub.docker.com/repository/docker/sagemathinc/sagemath/general https://hub.docker.com/orgs/sagemathinc/repositories -- William On Wed, Apr 9, 2025 at 10:00 PM 'Nasser M. Abbasi' via sage-devel wrote: > >

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On 9 April 2025 18:54:13 GMT-05:00, Nils Bruin wrote: >On Wednesday, 9 April 2025 at 16:44:31 UTC-7 dim...@gmail.com wrote: > >As I already explained, it's quite a stretch by Sage's standards to call >python3 package standard. Because it is not tested enough; >because few months into release,

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Wed, Apr 9, 2025 at 8:07 PM Nils Bruin wrote: > On Monday, 7 April 2025 at 08:59:40 UTC-7 marc@gmail.com wrote: > > If the Python spkg were removed we would no longer be able to start from a > standard build of Sage. > > Can you explain what the non-standard part would be > William says "

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Wed, Apr 09, 2025 at 12:36:59PM -0700, Nils Bruin wrote: > On Wednesday, 9 April 2025 at 12:15:07 UTC-7 dim...@gmail.com wrote: > > >No, this won't fly. This is going to break the already fragile logic > >behind package types. > >Standard packages cannot be optionally installed, so it can't s

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Monday, 7 April 2025 at 08:59:40 UTC-7 marc@gmail.com wrote: If the Python spkg were removed we would no longer be able to start from a standard build of Sage. Can you explain what the non-standard part would be and why you are concerned it would be more fragile on the side of Sage? To m

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Monday, April 7, 2025 at 11:48:15 PM UTC-5 Dima wrote: Besides, Nils' proposal would mean to introduce an entirely new kind of Sage package, No, it wouldn't. It would make a small change to how one existing configure option is handled by the configure script. - Marc -- You received

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

> On Wed, Apr 9, 2025 at 2:37 PM Nils Bruin wrote: >> Quite frankly, things like conda and uv are great initiatives and it would >> be great for sage to work nice with them. Conda is getting quite mature and >> has a wide user base, so transitioning to depending on conda may be a >> reasonable

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

> > At the same time, the concession that python3.spkg *can* still provide > python if really wanted helps Marc see that the MacOS app build is taken > seriously. I would expect it's a major delivery platform of sagemath > functionality to users, so it should be taken seriously. Anecdotally in my

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Wednesday, 9 April 2025 at 12:15:07 UTC-7 dim...@gmail.com wrote: No, this won't fly. This is going to break the already fragile logic behind package types. Standard packages cannot be optionally installed, so it can't stay standard. Optional packages probably cannot appear in toolchain. P

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Wed, Apr 9, 2025 at 9:05 AM Marc Culler wrote: > > > > On Monday, April 7, 2025 at 11:48:15 PM UTC-5 Dima wrote: > > Besides, Nils' proposal would mean to introduce an entirely new kind of Sage > package, > > > No, it wouldn't. It would make a small change to how one existing configure > op

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Monday, 7 April 2025 at 09:17:18 UTC-7 David Lowry-Duda wrote: Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but we already have --with-system-python3 that defaults to "yes", right? Is this different than the proposed --install_own_python option? I would expect that the flag *prefers* a system python that me

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Mon, Apr 7, 2025 at 5:12 PM Marc Culler wrote: > > > > On Mon, Apr 7, 2025 at 3:25 PM Dima Pasechnik wrote: >> >> >> It's not standard - no-one nowadays builds Sage's Python, not even CI is >> doing this. >> >> This is the point I already made. >> You are the sole users of this semi-broken fea

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

It is likely the case, but this is exactly my point - we don't want to spend our and other people time on solving a problem no other python package out there is doing - building Python from source. I am all ears as far as needs of building macOS app is concerned, I am willing to spend my time o

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On 15:11 Sun 06 Apr 2025, Marc Culler wrote: We could just have a configure flag "--install_own_python" to allow the prerequisite requirement to be fulfilled by building the python spkg; an option that would by default be off. would be ideal for the Sage_macOS project. I would be very happy wi

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

As this discussion tries to wander off into a new discussion about the uv project, I will attempt to bring it back on topic. The point is this: Currently, to build the macOS binary, we first build sage in a completely standard way. The only customization we need to do is to set up the configure

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Mon, Apr 7, 2025 at 10:03 AM Dima Pasechnik wrote: > We do see similar problems on Linux being run in WSL. It's probably due to > WSL defaulting to an old Ubuntu version, on which you need to jump extra > hoops to install modern Python. > The most recent such issue

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On 7 April 2025 07:48:37 GMT-05:00, Nathan Dunfield wrote: > > >1) Having sagemath detect python version requirements and build its own if >not acceptable version is found leads to increased support requests. > >[...] > >It seems to me that for 1) it isn't so important if python occurs as an

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

> I believe that Homebrew wouldn't work because of the issue with rpaths that > Marc hints at earlier in his message -- in particular the paths are baked in > as /opt/homebrew/* and will not survive relocation. The "uv" installer can > install in varying locations, but I'm not sure the result i

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Monday, April 7, 2025 at 1:19:45 AM UTC-5 Dima wrote: Homebrew, uv, etc provide single-arch Python3 just fine. I believe that Homebrew wouldn't work because of the issue with rpaths that Marc hints at earlier in his message -- in particular the paths are baked in as /opt/homebrew/* and will

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

1) Having sagemath detect python version requirements and build its own if not acceptable version is found leads to increased support requests. [...] It seems to me that for 1) it isn't so important if python occurs as an spkg or not -- the main issue there would be resolved if the build pro

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 6:07 PM Marc Culler wrote: > > This is surely not the place for a long technical discussion of the problems > that have to be solved to produce the macOS app. Let me just mention one > item at the tip of the iceberg, ignoring, for example, how we go about > making sage

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

This is surely not the place for a long technical discussion of the problems that have to be solved to produce the macOS app. Let me just mention one item at the tip of the iceberg, ignoring, for example, how we go about making sage relocatable and self-contained, with no symlinks or rpaths

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Nils, I think that your assessment of the situation is accurate, and that your proposed solution: > We could just have a configure flag "--install_own_python" to allow the prerequisite requirement to be fulfilled by > building the python spkg; an option that would by default be off. would be i

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Sun, Apr 6, 2025 at 11:40 AM Dima Pasechnik wrote: > On 6 April 2025 11:41:21 GMT-05:00, Nils Bruin wrote: > >It looks to me that there are two points of view here. > > > >1) Having sagemath detect python version requirements and build its own if > >not acceptable version is found leads to inc

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On 6 April 2025 11:41:21 GMT-05:00, Nils Bruin wrote: >It looks to me that there are two points of view here. > >1) Having sagemath detect python version requirements and build its own if >not acceptable version is found leads to increased support requests. I repeat - it is not only increased

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

It looks to me that there are two points of view here. 1) Having sagemath detect python version requirements and build its own if not acceptable version is found leads to increased support requests. 2) The macos app should package its own python and that is conveniently done by letting sagemath

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Dima, I looked through the logs, do you agree the following is a rough summary of the issue in this case? The user building Sage from source uses a package manager that installs software in /opt/homebrew/. They had some components of Sage installed in /opt/homebrew but fewer than we recommend

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

> > >- > >Reliability >- > >Installation speed >- > >Disk space used after installation >- > >Ease of use for end users >- > >Suitability for distributions >- > >Suitability for the macOS app (listed separately due to its unique >packaging and dis

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

What are good criteria for evaluating different ways to install Python? - Reliability - Installation speed - Disk space used after installation - Ease of use for end users - Suitability for distributions - Suitability for the macO

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Thank you, David. I am driving from Denver to Chicago at the moment. Once I get home I will be able to respond with some details about the issues that arise when packaging Sage for macOS, including why it is not possible to just run python3 setup.py py2app and end up with a Sage app. - Marc

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Tue, Apr 1, 2025 at 10:26 AM chris wuthrich wrote: > > > Would that mean that users (like me) will have to downgrade python provided > by their distribution at times - or to learn how to use multiple version of > python? Using multiple versions of python is not a dark art. You install it wit

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

What was the original intent behind having the dual requirements of (i) a system python and (ii) a SPKG python both in Sage? What (once upon a time) did having a SKPG do that couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't be done by the system python? On Mon, Mar 31, 2025 at 7:27 PM Michael Orlitzky wrote: > On 20

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

> > Dima started this thread because he believes that the Python spkg in Sage > is making the support he's providing users harder. Marc believes that this > change would make his work more difficult. As a community, we need to make > a decision about what to do with this proposal, but rather than

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 5:48 PM Marc Culler wrote: > > This will unnecessarily make it more difficult to build the Sage_mac OS > binary package. In order to make that package easy to install in the way > that normal macOS users expect, it must be signed and notarized. In order to > notarize t

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Fri, Apr 4, 2025 at 8:50 AM Dima Pasechnik wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 5:48 PM Marc Culler wrote: > > > > This will unnecessarily make it more difficult to build the Sage_mac OS > > binary package. In order to make that package easy to install in the way > > that normal macOS users e

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 10:12 PM William Stein wrote: > On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 7:06 PM Trevor Karn > wrote: > > > > Maybe we can all take a breath here. Everyone here is passionate about > making Sage as good as it can be. This seems to be getting a bit too heated > right now. > > > > +1 - I jus

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

This will unnecessarily make it more difficult to build the Sage_mac OS binary package. In order to make that package easy to install in the way that normal macOS users expect, it must be signed and notarized. In order to notarize the package it must be self-contained. Not signing and notari

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 7:06 PM Trevor Karn wrote: > > Maybe we can all take a breath here. Everyone here is passionate about making > Sage as good as it can be. This seems to be getting a bit too heated right > now. > +1 - I just wanted to offer some helpful links and support, and now I feel l

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Maybe we can all take a breath here. Everyone here is passionate about making Sage as good as it can be. This seems to be getting a bit too heated right now. On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 8:55 PM Marc Culler wrote: > Actually, that does not even come close to solving the problem. > > You don't have a

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Actually, that does not even come close to solving the problem. You don't have any experience with building the Sage_macOS package, obviously, so you don't know what the problems are. - Marc On Thursday, April 3, 2025 at 8:45:48 PM UTC-5 dim...@gmail.com wrote: > On 3 April 2025 17:48:00 GMT-0

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On 3 April 2025 17:48:00 GMT-05:00, Marc Culler wrote: >This will unnecessarily make it more difficult to build the Sage_mac OS >binary package. In order to make that package easy to install in the way >that normal macOS users expect, it must be signed and notarized. In order >to notarize the p

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 6:35 PM William Stein wrote: > On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 3:48 PM Marc Culler wrote: > > > > This will unnecessarily make it more difficult to build the Sage_mac OS > binary package. In order to make that package easy to install in the way > that normal macOS users expect, i

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 3:48 PM Marc Culler wrote: > > This will unnecessarily make it more difficult to build the Sage_mac OS > binary package. In order to make that package easy to install in the way > that normal macOS users expect, it must be signed and notarized. In order to > notarize t

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Wed, Apr 2, 2025 at 8:38 AM 'tobia...@gmx.de' via sage-devel wrote: > > Sounds like a good idea. Installing a specific version of Python nowadays is > easy enough and there a few tools that make this experience as smooth as > possible. For example, uv uses prebuild pythons for many OS to spee

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

Sounds like a good idea. Installing a specific version of Python nowadays is easy enough and there a few tools that make this experience as smooth as possible. For example, uv uses prebuild pythons for many OS to speed up the installation and to reduce the risk of build errors (see https://gith

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

On Tue, Apr 1, 2025 at 10:57 AM David Lowry-Duda wrote: > > On 10:50 Tue 01 Apr 2025, Trevor Karn wrote: > >This is my concern. But if there is a way to use only system python > >installed following https://www.python.org/about/gettingstarted/ without > >regard to version issues, and get rid of SP

Re: [sage-devel] PROPOSAL: remove python3 spkg from Sage

I do recall a system python upgrade on Fedora a while ago where python was replaced/updated in a way that was binary incompatible. As a result, my source-built sage was rendered non-functional. Recompiling worked but of course "make" wouldn't find which prerequisites were changed and hence whic

  1   2   >