On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 6:32 PM William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 4:12 PM Nils Bruin <nbr...@sfu.ca> wrote: > > > > On Friday, 18 April 2025 at 10:07:12 UTC-7 dim...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > Nobody is going to "break" anything. You'll just need a proper Python to > install Sage, like one of many pre-reqs already needed. > > It's just fear-mongering. Building Sage will be less broken this way, > not more broken. > > > > It looks to me that a consensus to move forward on this is in reach: > > > > * Dima's preference is to (eventually) end up in a state where python is > a prerequisite for sage and his main argument for that is: other projects > have as purpose to provide python and they likely do a better job than we'd > do. > > > > * Marc and Sébastien have voiced some concerns about how smooth the > transition to "python purely a prerequisite" would be. Given that we HAVE > been offering the option to build python since the start, one would expect > that some people's workflows are relying on that behaviour, so there are > going to be wrinkles for those people. We in fact know that one example of > that is the building process of the MacOS app. > > > > It seems to me that the concerns of the two parties above aren't even > conflicting: one is aiming for something they find technologically superior > and ultimately more stable and reliable (and easier to maintain) whereas > the other party is concerned that the transition will be too painful for > them, or that they're forced to transition to something that may need > fixing due to unforeseen shortcomings that come to light once they go > through this forced transition. I haven't seen them object to the principle > of the final goal. > > > > So a middle ground would be to offer a security blanket during the > transition: change the default behaviour of the python package for now to > NOT build, but as a transition measure offer a configuration flag that > restores the ability to build python from source. The clear goal of that > must be that within the near future, no-one is actually activating that > configuration flag, after which it can be removed with minimal impact. Once > the python package has become just a stub to test if there is a python > available that works properly, it will be easy to remove the package and > instead make the test for python a normal prerequisite check. > > > > If the proposal to require an external Python is accepted, there could > still be our standard1-year deprecation period, during what you say > above is done. > I'm fine with delaying this change until the 10.8 release cycle, but an even longer delay is too much, IMHO. I propose to release 10.7 with the option proposed by Nils, and with python3 spkg removed in 10.8. Dima > > > The perceived conflict here doesn't look like it's technological at all. > It seems much more an issue with trust. I realize it may be sobering to > find that people basically say: "I don't trust your assessment", but just > shouting "Just trust me" at an increased volume is very unlikely to > persuade them. Instead, if there's a way forward that allows you to say > "Fine, you don't have to trust me unconditionally; let's just do it in > smaller steps and then you can check for yourself it's OK", you'll likely > to do much better on gaining trust in the future. Plus, you'll arrive at > the destination you were aiming for eventually anyway. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "sage-devel" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/a444cbd4-ff0b-4397-97ce-ad6da16f2679n%40googlegroups.com > . > > > > -- > William (http://wstein.org) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CACLE5GB1CtC16J__rqQXxDk%2B5DKwtuyH-VXj3fwKb8q%3D468vZA%40mail.gmail.com > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAAWYfq2KxSGXHXpaNYsSq3ojJK%3DtmRp2giOyAr2VpFN__m%2BCVw%40mail.gmail.com.
