What are good criteria for evaluating different ways to install Python?
- Reliability - Installation speed - Disk space used after installation - Ease of use for end users - Suitability for distributions - Suitability for the macOS app (listed separately due to its unique packaging and distribution requirements) Did I miss something? For the first two points, using a precompiled Python (like the one provided by uv) is clearly faster and more reliable than building from source. The uv installation is heavily optimized, though it's unclear to me whether it's smaller or larger than a source build. It would be helpful if Marc could share the size of the Python installation on macOS to compare with William’s numbers for uv. >From a user-experience perspective, it's slightly easier to run a single global make command that installs Python as part of the python-spkg. That said, the python-spkg doesn't necessarily have to build Python from source - it could still use a precompiled version (say via uv) under the hood. “Normal” Linux distributions typically include their own Python, so they don’t depend on Sage’s Python packaging. I don’t have the expertise to speak confidently about macOS packaging, but my impression is that tools like PyOxidizer use similar prebuilt Pythons and are capable of producing signed and notarized apps. It would be great if Marc (or others familiar with the macOS side) could explain how other Python projects embed Python to generate signed applications; and why it's so important for the sage macos app to build from source. On Saturday, April 5, 2025 at 4:47:05 AM UTC+8 marc....@gmail.com wrote: > Thank you, David. > > I am driving from Denver to Chicago at the moment. Once I get home I will > be able to respond with some details about the issues that arise when > packaging Sage for macOS, including why it is not possible to just run > python3 setup.py py2app and end up with a Sage app. > > - Marc > > > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 4, 2025, 10:05 AM David Roe <roed...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 10:12 PM William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 7:06 PM Trevor Karn <trevor...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > Maybe we can all take a breath here. Everyone here is passionate about >>> making Sage as good as it can be. This seems to be getting a bit too heated >>> right now. >>> > >>> >>> +1 - I just wanted to offer some helpful links and support, and now I >>> feel like I'm being "flame baited. I'm out. >>> >> >> I agree with Trevor; everyone needs to be respectful, especially if they >> feel strongly about the topic being discussed. Dima and Marc are both >> contributing greatly to the Sage project in many ways, but the relevant >> ones right now are that >> 1. Dima is the person most likely to respond when users come to either >> sage-devel or sage-support and ask for help with build problems. This is >> extremely valuable to the project. >> 2. Marc maintains our Mac application, which makes Sage easy to install >> and use on Macs. This is extremely valuable to the project. >> >> Dima started this thread because he believes that the Python spkg in Sage >> is making the support he's providing users harder. Marc believes that this >> change would make his work more difficult. As a community, we need to make >> a decision about what to do with this proposal, but rather than thinking >> about it as picking a side, we should think about what the costs are on >> each side and how we can help mitigate them and help Dima and Marc. >> >> Concretely, Dima, can you expand a bit on how the Python spkg was >> complicating the build situation here >> <https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/YSiaVdsLKQg/m/HYnS8hUACAAJ>? >> Marc, what would be involved in building a signed Mac app if we needed to >> include Python in another way than an spkg? >> >> I appreciate what both of you are doing, as I'm sure that everyone else >> does as well. >> David >> >> >>> William >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 8:55 PM Marc Culler <marc....@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Actually, that does not even come close to solving the problem. >>> >> >>> >> You don't have any experience with building the Sage_macOS package, >>> obviously, so you don't know what the problems are. >>> >> >>> >> - Marc >>> >> >>> >> On Thursday, April 3, 2025 at 8:45:48 PM UTC-5 dim...@gmail.com >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3 April 2025 17:48:00 GMT-05:00, Marc Culler <marc....@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >This will unnecessarily make it more difficult to build the >>> Sage_mac OS >>> >>> >binary package. In order to make that package easy to install in >>> the way >>> >>> >that normal macOS users expect, it must be signed and notarized. In >>> order >>> >>> >to notarize the package it must be self-contained. >>> >>> >>> >>> Fine, install Python from python.org (which is easier than building >>> >>> our Python spkg from source), or any other way, and package it >>> >>> instead. >>> >>> Problem solved. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dima >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in >>> the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. >>> >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/sage-devel/-ASHfAXqVYo/unsubscribe. >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>> sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>> >> To view this discussion visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/75629f0f-59fe-4680-9151-ab3d673566fdn%40googlegroups.com >>> . >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "sage-devel" group. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>> > To view this discussion visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAJ6VCMBsC9Uq_vO7AXQNUKWaptaRu%3D0rRm9EnSQToGhsmnTHtw%40mail.gmail.com >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> William (http://wstein.org) >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "sage-devel" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CACLE5GAsvDby%3DQMz6im%2BOJw4rkDn%3DswBUzaQw8x6LN5%3DGH_K%2BA%40mail.gmail.com >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups "sage-devel" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/sage-devel/-ASHfAXqVYo/unsubscribe. >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAChs6_%3D%3DR%2BinCPF4KwXJ3b2zTDPGatftRO6mCw59Zf9g5zAPRw%40mail.gmail.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAChs6_%3D%3DR%2BinCPF4KwXJ3b2zTDPGatftRO6mCw59Zf9g5zAPRw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/c56945d8-3008-4163-bd61-af3759188ff5n%40googlegroups.com.
