> > > - > > Reliability > - > > Installation speed > - > > Disk space used after installation > - > > Ease of use for end users > - > > Suitability for distributions > - > > Suitability for the macOS app (listed separately due to its unique > packaging and distribution requirements) > > Also - to Marc's point - ease of maintenance for developers. Maybe this is encapsulated in "suitability"... Definitely not the highest priority - users should be our focus - but this thread demonstrates it needs to be on the list.
On Sat, Apr 5, 2025 at 6:10 AM 'tobia...@gmx.de' via sage-devel < sage-devel@googlegroups.com> wrote: > What are good criteria for evaluating different ways to install Python? > > - > > Reliability > - > > Installation speed > - > > Disk space used after installation > - > > Ease of use for end users > - > > Suitability for distributions > - > > Suitability for the macOS app (listed separately due to its unique > packaging and distribution requirements) > > Did I miss something? > > For the first two points, using a precompiled Python (like the one > provided by uv) is clearly faster and more reliable than building from > source. The uv installation is heavily optimized, though it's unclear to > me whether it's smaller or larger than a source build. It would be helpful > if Marc could share the size of the Python installation on macOS to compare > with William’s numbers for uv. > > From a user-experience perspective, it's slightly easier to run a single > global make command that installs Python as part of the python-spkg. That > said, the python-spkg doesn't necessarily have to build Python from > source - it could still use a precompiled version (say via uv) under the > hood. > > “Normal” Linux distributions typically include their own Python, so they > don’t depend on Sage’s Python packaging. > > I don’t have the expertise to speak confidently about macOS packaging, but > my impression is that tools like PyOxidizer use similar prebuilt Pythons > and are capable of producing signed and notarized apps. It would be great > if Marc (or others familiar with the macOS side) could explain how other > Python projects embed Python to generate signed applications; and why it's > so important for the sage macos app to build from source. > On Saturday, April 5, 2025 at 4:47:05 AM UTC+8 marc....@gmail.com wrote: > >> Thank you, David. >> >> I am driving from Denver to Chicago at the moment. Once I get home I >> will be able to respond with some details about the issues that arise when >> packaging Sage for macOS, including why it is not possible to just run >> python3 setup.py py2app and end up with a Sage app. >> >> - Marc >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 4, 2025, 10:05 AM David Roe <roed...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 10:12 PM William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 7:06 PM Trevor Karn <trevor...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Maybe we can all take a breath here. Everyone here is passionate >>>> about making Sage as good as it can be. This seems to be getting a bit too >>>> heated right now. >>>> > >>>> >>>> +1 - I just wanted to offer some helpful links and support, and now I >>>> feel like I'm being "flame baited. I'm out. >>>> >>> >>> I agree with Trevor; everyone needs to be respectful, especially if they >>> feel strongly about the topic being discussed. Dima and Marc are both >>> contributing greatly to the Sage project in many ways, but the relevant >>> ones right now are that >>> 1. Dima is the person most likely to respond when users come to either >>> sage-devel or sage-support and ask for help with build problems. This is >>> extremely valuable to the project. >>> 2. Marc maintains our Mac application, which makes Sage easy to install >>> and use on Macs. This is extremely valuable to the project. >>> >>> Dima started this thread because he believes that the Python spkg in >>> Sage is making the support he's providing users harder. Marc believes that >>> this change would make his work more difficult. As a community, we need to >>> make a decision about what to do with this proposal, but rather than >>> thinking about it as picking a side, we should think about what the costs >>> are on each side and how we can help mitigate them and help Dima and Marc. >>> >>> Concretely, Dima, can you expand a bit on how the Python spkg was >>> complicating the build situation here >>> <https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/YSiaVdsLKQg/m/HYnS8hUACAAJ>? >>> Marc, what would be involved in building a signed Mac app if we needed to >>> include Python in another way than an spkg? >>> >>> I appreciate what both of you are doing, as I'm sure that everyone else >>> does as well. >>> David >>> >>> >>>> William >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> > On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 8:55 PM Marc Culler <marc....@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Actually, that does not even come close to solving the problem. >>>> >> >>>> >> You don't have any experience with building the Sage_macOS package, >>>> obviously, so you don't know what the problems are. >>>> >> >>>> >> - Marc >>>> >> >>>> >> On Thursday, April 3, 2025 at 8:45:48 PM UTC-5 dim...@gmail.com >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On 3 April 2025 17:48:00 GMT-05:00, Marc Culler <marc....@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> >This will unnecessarily make it more difficult to build the >>>> Sage_mac OS >>>> >>> >binary package. In order to make that package easy to install in >>>> the way >>>> >>> >that normal macOS users expect, it must be signed and notarized. >>>> In order >>>> >>> >to notarize the package it must be self-contained. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Fine, install Python from python.org (which is easier than building >>>> >>> our Python spkg from source), or any other way, and package it >>>> >>> instead. >>>> >>> Problem solved. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Dima >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in >>>> the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. >>>> >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/sage-devel/-ASHfAXqVYo/unsubscribe. >>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>>> sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >> To view this discussion visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/75629f0f-59fe-4680-9151-ab3d673566fdn%40googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "sage-devel" group. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>> send an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>>> > To view this discussion visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAJ6VCMBsC9Uq_vO7AXQNUKWaptaRu%3D0rRm9EnSQToGhsmnTHtw%40mail.gmail.com >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> William (http://wstein.org) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "sage-devel" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CACLE5GAsvDby%3DQMz6im%2BOJw4rkDn%3DswBUzaQw8x6LN5%3DGH_K%2BA%40mail.gmail.com >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>> Google Groups "sage-devel" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/sage-devel/-ASHfAXqVYo/unsubscribe. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>> sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >>> >> To view this discussion visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAChs6_%3D%3DR%2BinCPF4KwXJ3b2zTDPGatftRO6mCw59Zf9g5zAPRw%40mail.gmail.com >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAChs6_%3D%3DR%2BinCPF4KwXJ3b2zTDPGatftRO6mCw59Zf9g5zAPRw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/sage-devel/-ASHfAXqVYo/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/c56945d8-3008-4163-bd61-af3759188ff5n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/c56945d8-3008-4163-bd61-af3759188ff5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. 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