> > Dima started this thread because he believes that the Python spkg in Sage > is making the support he's providing users harder. Marc believes that this > change would make his work more difficult. As a community, we need to make > a decision about what to do with this proposal, but rather than thinking > about it as picking a side, we should think about what the costs are on > each side and how we can help mitigate them and help Dima and Marc. >
Concretely, Dima, can you expand a bit on how the Python spkg was > complicating the build situation here > <https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/YSiaVdsLKQg/m/HYnS8hUACAAJ>? > Marc, what would be involved in building a signed Mac app if we needed to > include Python in another way than an spkg? > I appreciate what both of you are doing, as I'm sure that everyone else > does as well. +1 On Fri, Apr 4, 2025 at 11:07 AM William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 4, 2025 at 8:50 AM Dima Pasechnik <dimp...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 3, 2025 at 5:48 PM Marc Culler <marc.cul...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > This will unnecessarily make it more difficult to build the Sage_mac > OS binary package. In order to make that package easy to install in the > way that normal macOS users expect, it must be signed and notarized. In > order to notarize the package it must be self-contained. > > > > > > Not signing and notarizing the package would break it. So would > requiring users to install a particular version of python. > > > > > > I do not believe Dima for a second when he says: > > > > This is pure and undiluted slander. Please stop at once. > > +1 > > > > > Dima > > > > > "We constantly see support cases where users start installing Sage, > and end up running into errors installing Sage's python3" > > > > > > Yes, people have problems sometimes. But those problems are not caused > by Sage's python3 spkg, which always has built with no issues when building > the Sage_macOS binary package since version 9.2. > > > > > > The following statement is just an attempt at obfuscation: > > > "In particular, this happens when they try installing a stable > version of Sage, which is too old for the rapid changes happening in macOS > (just today 2025-03-30, we had such a case)." > > > (There was no such problem reported on sage-support that day and no > details to back up this claim.) > > > > > > There were about 35,000 downloads of the Sage_macOS 10.5 package prior > to the release of 10.6 on Tuesday. Needless to say there were 0 issues > related to the Python3 spkg, and less than 5 issues of any sort. > > > > > > There is nothing broken about the Python3 spkg. Don't "fix it" > > > > > > - Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, April 2, 2025 at 12:03:12 PM UTC-5 wst...@gmail.com > wrote: > > >> > > >> On Wed, Apr 2, 2025 at 8:38 AM 'tobia...@gmx.de' via sage-devel > > >> <sage-...@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Sounds like a good idea. Installing a specific version of Python > nowadays is easy enough and there a few tools that make this experience as > smooth as possible. For example, uv uses prebuild pythons for many OS to > speed up the installation and to reduce the risk of build errors (see > https://github.com/astral-sh/python-build-standalone). I very much doubt > that sage will ever reach this level of smooth user experience and > sophistication - nor should it be an aim of a computer algebra system to > worry about this. > > >> > > > >> > > >> +1 to exactly this. I was going to post exactly the same comment about > > >> uv. That project has put a lot of work into specifically creating > > >> easily redistributable Python installs... so other projects (like > > >> Sage) don't have to. It makes a lot of sense these days to put > > >> documentation effort into pointing people at good tools for installing > > >> python, rather than maintaining our own build of python. A really > > >> similar thing is how "make configure" in sage now suggests system > > >> packages to install -- I just built sage 10.6 from source on some of > > >> my favorite Linux boxes, and the experience was great. > > >> > > >> > So +1 if it is replaced by proper documentation using a modern and > standard tool (uv?) plus a few alternatives that usual work (system > installation, pyenv). > > >> > > > >> > On Tuesday, April 1, 2025 at 8:07:07 PM UTC+2 dim...@gmail.com > wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> On Tue, Apr 1, 2025 at 10:57 AM David Lowry-Duda < > da...@lowryduda.com> wrote: > > >> >> > > > >> >> > On 10:50 Tue 01 Apr 2025, Trevor Karn wrote: > > >> >> > >This is my concern. But if there is a way to use only system > python > > >> >> > >installed following > https://www.python.org/about/gettingstarted/ without > > >> >> > >regard to version issues, and get rid of SPKG python, then that > makes sense > > >> >> > >to me. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > I think sage currently checks for python >= 3.11. I don't know > what features that uses, but this is newer than what comes with several > major distributions. For example, Ubuntu 20.04 LTS uses python 3.8 as its > system python, and Ubuntu 22.04 LTS uses python 3.10 as its system python. > > >> >> > > >> >> You are not limited to only one python3 on these systems, you can > > >> >> install another, newer, python3 (it would get a suffix, like > > >> >> python3.11) and use it just as well. > > >> >> (for Ubuntu 20.04 LTS one can only official python3.10, and newer > via > > >> >> a ppa, but it's an outlier, and 20.04 LTS is a very old OS, not > really > > >> >> well-supported anymore, OS. In May 2025 one either has to pay extra > > >> >> for its support, or upgrade). > > >> >> > > >> >> Our policies on minimal python3 versions are more or less in line > with > > >> >> what the main scientific Python packages, such as scipy, are > following > > >> >> - and they are doing just fine without bundling a python3 as a > > >> >> sub-package. Our current 3.11 is a bit ahead of the curve ATM, but > we > > >> >> could be a bit slower, and sticky to a particularly widely adapted > > >> >> system, like scipy does. > > >> >> > > >> >> Dima > > >> >> > > > >> >> > - DLD > > >> >> > > > >> >> > -- > > >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google Groups "sage-devel" group. > > >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from > it, send an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. > > >> >> > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/Z-wMylxcLRvyborl%40icerm-dld. > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "sage-devel" group. > > >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, > send an email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. > > >> > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/7ab049d4-24b7-47d2-8076-570343e06278n%40googlegroups.com > . > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> William (http://wstein.org) > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "sage-devel" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/146a1582-bffb-4474-94b0-c12818f802afn%40googlegroups.com > . > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "sage-devel" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CAAWYfq195%3DUiGkY5%2BsfZzVs_2Wi%3Du2d42cN0pB4Ma-YW-DkaYg%40mail.gmail.com > . > > > > -- > William (http://wstein.org) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/sage-devel/-ASHfAXqVYo/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/CACLE5GDk43NLmKaZ4v1t-ZY3%2Beoybs3a7%3DahFRh%2Bj8TPkuwqjg%40mail.gmail.com > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. 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