On 10 April 2025 07:45:09 GMT-05:00, Nathan Dunfield <nat...@dunfield.info>
wrote:
>On Thursday, April 10, 2025 at 12:07:03 AM UTC-5 Dima wrote:
>
>> Probably not on the build system. But the app needs to work on *any*
>system.
>>
>>> Are you worried that sage would have trouble recognizing the python
>build as valid for its purposes?
>>
>No. Because sagelib (with meson build) is already a proper Python
>package, which should just shut up and get installed as a Python
>package of a Python. :-)
>(And the rest is just a semi-optional environment coming on top of
>sagelib, pretty much orthogonal to what's in the macOS app)
>
>
>To me, a "proper Python package" is something I can install with
>"random-python -m pip install blah" that pulls a binary wheel off PyPI that
>just works. If we're getting close to being able to do that, which would
>absolutely amazing, then why not wait until that's done so we can ditch
>sage-the-distribution completely?
Sorry, let's not try to shift the goalposts now.
Binary wheels (with self-contained binary extension modules) are a different
story, and I am under the impression they are not of any use to the macOS app
building.
As far as I can see, we are at the point where macOS app can switch to
using the meson build, with any Python you want. E.g. you can use the same
Python as you use to package Jupyter (my understanding is that how macOS app
does it).
With all non-python pre-reqs in place,
just run./bootstrap and pip to build sagelib, that's all.
No need to worry about a dodgy custom venv,
unhappy ./configure, etc.
We were told here that you want to build everything from source, and with this
build you can do this just fine.
And your feedback on/fixes of will be very useful to improve it. We already get
such feedback from Linux SageMath maintainers.
>
>While I understand the dislike for sage-the-distribution, removing Python
>(and perhaps some other collection of spkgs) creates
>sage-the-kinda-distribution which is less useful and, I suspect, even more
>fragile.
Less useful to whom? Yes, less useful as a hardcore, entertaining, and very
time-consuming (for us, too) game, for a naïve user, who tries to build Sage on
a brand-new macOS laptop with only XCode installed, or on a brand new, minimal,
WSL install on a Windows box. Something that is most probably doomed to fail in
a variety of entertaining ways.
The removal of stuff which doesn't go into binary wheels has to proceed
incrementally,
and Python and its toolchain is a part to be removed.
And no, I don't see a reason for Sage getting more fragile with removal of
python3 spkg.
To the contrary, it will be more robust. As I explained a number of times here
already, our python3 and its toolchain are lagging behind. It's less fragile to
use extensively tested on, and timely updated for, up to date OSes etc external
packages, than try to repeat the upstream efforts, with delays and lack of
testing.
Dima
>Best,
>
>Nathan
>
>
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