Sounds like Apple Care comes in different flavors or something. I understand
now that iOS devices can only use Apple Care Plus and I only bought them at
time of purchase so was not aware of a 30 day limit. When I bought Apple Care
for my Mac Mini last year (about 8 months after purchase), I did
Well, that still sucks doesn't it. It seems to work with Gnome and Orca. I
guess our only hope on the mac is Nisus Writer and iWork but I sure hope iWork
gets a major face lift since it hasn't been updated since 2009!
On Jul 26, 2013, at 12:53 PM, Chris Blouch wrote:
> Subject pretty much says
Yeah, I see quicknav most useful in web navigation where you are wanting to
skip around to appropriate links, headings, form controls, etc. I don't see any
use for it in most other apps. However, I would like to be able to use it
inside some messages where they have a stupid link farm at the top
I also like interaction actually. It allows one to skip past extra controls
like buttons in tool bars or radio groups. The only time I find interaction to
be inconvenient is when you have to navigate 3 or more levels down into an
object to manipulate it. Calendar on the Mac is a bit that way as
I went and bought it this morning before I left to go to work. I used
iCloud to sync up with all my subs from the iOS version. Since there
were so many episodes to fetch and all, the app kept going into a
perpetual busy mode and would stop responding. I had to force quit
about 3 times before it all
I find Transmit to be an excellent FTP client and it is fully accessible too.
It's a lot like FileZilla for windows in case you had ever used that excellent
program.
On Aug 3, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Tyler Thompson wrote:
> I’ve seen a couple posts asking for FTP software. I wanted to chip in my 2
I had a lot of problems with that too. I've been in touch with the devs and
given them numerous logs. I've also had the program crash on me several times
when attempting to retry multiple downloads from the download pane.
In fact, you might wanna go into the download pane with Command-4 and see
wrote:
> Hey Steve, will check out my downloads tomorrow or I guess later today. Have
> you been able to get iCloud sync to properly sync your episodes between your
> mac and iPhone? Thanks, Brian
> On Aug 4, 2013, at 12:48 AM, Steve Holmes wrote:
>
>> I had a lot of proble
d feature might only work moving
> forward once the app is installed on IOS and/or Mac. Thanks for letting me
> know how it works with you. I still need to play around with it a lot more as
> I haven't gotten a chance.
> On Aug 4, 2013, at 11:59 AM, Steve Holmes wrote:
>
&
I have also seen this a lot with the NFB newsline reader. I wonder if it has
something to do with large buffers of text for the Braille display to pan
through.
On Aug 4, 2013, at 5:50 PM, Jane wrote:
> I dont know if it's unique to Kindle. In some iBooks, I can get lag when
> panning. I use a
Never had total dimness like that but I also would urge you to get latest
update from the App store. He fixed some really glaring bugs and it seems to be
working a lot better for me now.
On Aug 7, 2013, at 3:27 PM, Brian Fischler wrote:
> Hey all, I finally have the time to start playing aroun
I definitely appreciate your involvement on this project. I find Libreoffice to
be quite accessible in GNOME plus Orca so would love to see it over here on the
Mac too. I think the lack of really good office accessibility is a Mac killer
many blind users.
On Aug 26, 2013, at 12:10 PM, Boris Duš
I'm an experienced programmer in other platforms like mainframe, C, Perl, php,
etc. But this discussion of Xcode and stuff is quite interesting to me but
seems to go way over my head. Where can I find some good tutorials or intro
manuals to get going using this environment? I have a book I bough
Wow, I think the bookmarks view has changed since I was in there last. At least
for me, both tables were still showing. There seems to be the HTML view of
bookmarks too. I don't recall seeing all this in the past. On my setup, the
vertical bar is set to 0% but the horizontal is sitting around 75
The only time Option Enter might not work is when the site uses some goofy
javascript or button to begin playing the file. If this happens to you, go into
Safari's preferences and look for the option to "Always download" for the given
file type. I have mine set that way by default here.
On Sep
Look for id3 Edit. I forget the site name right now but I bought it over a year
ago. You can edit both V1 and V2 tags and note that iTunes only works with ID3
V2 tags.
On Sep 6, 2013, at 6:15 AM, Alex Hall wrote:
> I see where you are coming from now. I tagged all my un-tagged tracks
> manual
I plan to give a demo / teach session over a VOIP or Skype call where I want to
allow the participants in the call to hear the output from VoiceOver on my Mac.
Is there any way to do this with Mountain Lion? I have Audio Hijack Pro here
but am lead to believe that VO can't be shared with Skype o
Hell, the geek in me says to go into the Terminal app and cd into the Download
folder and do whatever with the book files by saying *.epub. Like you could
copy all apubs some place by saying
cp *.epub books
where books is the folder you want to copy them to. If you want to "move" them
instead of
s allowed me to
> mix the levels on the fly a bit between the mic and voiceover. Actually went
> a step farther and ran Jaws in a VM on the Mac so I could demo stuff on both
> platforms. Worked well and I liked having the external controls to tweak
> things.
>
> CB
>
>
This was interesting reading indeed. I also found a link in one of the reader
comments where OS X FUSE is an open source solution and is being actively
developed even up to and including Mavericks. It replaces the old Mac FUSE
package which hasn't been worked since 2009 apparently.
On Sep 12, 2
Hey thanks for pointing this out. I used to follow people with the f in front
of the user name in a new tweet. I wonder what else the Twitter folks wanna
ruin. I guess they are still hell bent on wrecking the experience for 3rd party
twitter app developers and users.
On Sep 21, 2013, at 7:39 AM
No, I think you still need to enable deleting by turning off archiving.
Otherwise if you just choose Archive, the Inbox flag will be turned off and
that message will sit in All Mail forever. You have to move the message to the
Trash folder and I'm pretty certain that without Archiving, it will g
Another FTP client I really like for the Mac is Transmit. Everything I've seen
in that app is accessible. It costs a bit from the Mac App Store but is well
worth it.
On Sep 22, 2013, at 11:34 AM, Edward Green wrote:
> Hi Daniel,
>
> No I haven't yet. So far I've just been using hotkeys to ac
Jessica,
I don't think iTunes can talk to the BARD app. That's strange about not being
authorized to play them as you had to properly sign into the BARD repository
with the app in order to download in the first place. I have over 20 books on
my app and have had no trouble playing any of them. T
I have an idea but it is rather geeky and will require some shell scripting and
the use of a 3rd party ID3 editor that accepts command line functions. I'm
speaking in general terms right now byt what is basically needed is that all
your files are consistently named with track numbers in the same
I haven't tried the hover cam on the Mac but back when I was trying to use it
on my Windows laptop with Docuscan plus, I got horrible results. I went out and
bought a flat bed scanner; much better results with that. The scanner with
Docuscan works great on the Mac too. I just don't have any fait
The 404 error means the URL is pointing to something that doesn't exist. The
current site for Blind Cool Tech is full of broken links. It should be taken
down. If it is dead, then the owners should do us all a big favor and shoot it
once and for all and get rid of it totally. It is of no value i
Downcast on iOS is great and I've been using it for over a year and a half. the
Mac version works well as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. There have
been some significant issues with the iCloud syncing with earliest versions of
Downcast on the Mac but Version 1.3 has just been submitt
Make sure the iOS version of Downcast has all iCloud syncing enabled and also
check same options in the Mac version. Once done, things should start syncing
automatically. At least that happened for me.
On Sep 29, 2013, at 6:57 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I just bought Downcast for
One big thing I always do if I have any doubt as to which folder I'm actually
in is to review the current window title with VO-F2. This will always identify
the current folder; this works with Column and list views.
On Oct 1, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Maria and Joe Chapman
wrote:
> Hi.
>
> yep I do
To add a couple mor important notes here, When pressing VO-Command-Space on the
first item selection, it will actually unselect it so press same keys a second
time and then you will hear VO tell you that it was added to the selection.
Then when moving up or down the list to find something else,
With all the problems noted over the past year concerning older versions of
java and backdoor security holes and all, this idea of using an older version
of Java is down right scary and should probably be avoided at all cost. Why
doesn't Talking Communities update their software to use current
That is by design. All your mail goes in that folder and if you want to see
given messages in other logical folders, labels are assigned and the other
"folders" are really just messages with that label.
To actually get messages out of "All mail", you have to explicitly move them to
the Trash f
The one view I always liked in prior versions of iTunes was the table view
showing all the tracks of an album and the detail columns that go with them. I
discovered that if I choose the Songs view instead of Album or Artist, I not
only get the table list view back but I can also get the column
I also use last pass and so far that has all been on the Mac with Safari. Just
remember to interact with the frame that contains the last pass form and it
will work great for you. I like saswords and other optional information. You
might need to bump around in there for a while till you get
Webvism is a firefox plug-in so it will work with any platform that firefox
runs on. I have used it on both Windows and Linux personally and I have read
here where Mac users have done it with the Mac version of firefox. Wonder how
hard it would be to write a safari plugin for webvism.
Oh, whi
Dec 2, 2012, at 7:13 AM, Jessica Moss wrote:
> Is there any way to keep them from constantly resurfacing every time I delete
> them then relaunch mail?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 1, 2012, at 10:25 PM, Steve Holmes wrote:
>
>> That is by design. All your mail
Does anyone know how to get into the list of bookmarks to manage them? Like I
want to remove some old ones I no longer need. I can get into the regular
bookmarks menu and see all the stuff I have previously added and launch them
and all. But when I choose the option to show all bookmarks, the
an just use delete to remove one or
> space to activate one.
> good luck,
> Ronald
> Op 2 dec. 2012, om 18:17 heeft Steve Holmes het
> volgende geschreven:
>
>> Does anyone know how to get into the list of bookmarks to manage them? Like
>> I want to remove some old
I hope the macvisionaries list isn't sending duplicates again. I saw this
message earlier today, replied to it and deleted the same. Wonder why it is
back.
On Nov 30, 2012, at 7:35 PM, Jessica Moss
wrote:
> Ok, I'm not really sure what the perpose of this folder is, but for some
> reason a
Hi I would just like to tell anyone interested that you can use the reader on
> this article Command+shift+R
> hth Colin
>
> On 2 Dec 2012, at 16:17, Steve Holmes wrote:
>
>> Boy, this is hard to explain off the top of my head but you need to set Mail
>> to move
I am not experiencing these busy busy busy problems. Once in a while, a
particular program will hang and go busy but in most of those cases, it is
stuck doing something like trying to get new mail or like yesterday when I
accidentally told the bookmarks menu to open all 47 bookmarks in separate
I would also think it better to delete from within iTunes because iTunes does
maintain an internal catalog of your content and that would get out of sync if
you pull out files from under it by other means. I'm not sure if iTunes has a
way to clean itself up or not.
On Dec 3, 2012, at 4:06 AM,
These two different apps provide different types of backups and these backups
have different purposes.
Superduper does a full image backup as has been mentioned on this thread so
far. From that, you can completely restore your system to the point in time
that image was created. time Machine d
One question here; does Transmit support secured file transfers like sftp,
https, ftps, etc.?
On Dec 7, 2012, at 9:36 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland
wrote:
> Really glad you enjoy it. Yeah, I use it like crazy over here.
>
> Thank you kindly,
>
> Christopher-Mark Gilland.
> Founder of CLG Pr
ere's an option when you're filling in all
> the site information to choose if you need such things.
>
> Thank you kindly,
>
> Christopher-Mark Gilland.
> Founder of CLG Productions
> - Original Message -
> From: "Steve Holmes"
> To:
>
Let me take this in a couple parts. First of all, The iOS mail client
handles gmail stuff pretty well; just make sure the option for
archiving is turned off; this will give you a delete button instead.
It sounds like you are doing that part already. Now, there's nothing
wrong with trash going int
I also had used the Windows stand-alone version for several years. Last year
(tax year 2011), I used the online web site from a Linux box using Firefox.
Accessibility was fine.
However, I ran into a CAPTCHA at the time of filing! Thankfully, I was on
Firefox and could use Webvisum to comple
By default, the recently added smart playlist only covers a two week period. So
if your other stuff came in before that point, you wouldn't see it. You can go
into configure that playlist and expand the time period. That might help your
situation. If your Amazon stuff was acquired more recently
In general, I have had good results with Quick Nav. I have only used it with
HTML areas. It doesn't make much sense to use it elsewhere particularly when
arrow keys are pressed in a list or table like the message list in Mail or a
twitter timeline, etc. I have also discovered Quick Nav turning
Hi Nancy,
I saw your reply privately the other day when I reported that I could not get
it to pick up anything on my iPad Mini. I thought I read some place in your
scanning tips possibly that iPads don't do flash on the camera. Is this the
case? Do I have to bring up the stage lights to get thi
With every successful search I did last night, I found albums just fine. In
fact, this worked so well that I completely wiped out a $100 gift balance
within a couple hours . Sometimes songs may come first and I can nav
down to the next header to find albums. I don't remember if there are any
se
Nah, I have run into this problem too. In my case, I was interacting
with the message list table and when I would press either left or
right arrow keys without any other modifiers, I would hear a ding.
The one way I'm able to get out of this bind is to turn off VO with
the usual Command-F5 key, th
What Christine wants to do is use the command bound to VO-J; I don't remember
the exact name for it but it allows for jumping between different parts of the
screen and remain interacted with the same. I use it a lot in iTunes and Mail.
For Mail it jumps immediately between the list of mail fold
The only other thing I can think of is the Sleep option from the Apple menu
after pressing VO-m from any application. Another thing that may be affecting
behavior on different machines is whether or not you have a password assigned
to wake the machine from a sleep state; I don't in my case. Sc
eys to start expanding the threads again. It is a very simple
> but reliable fix for me.
>
> Robert Carter
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2013, at 2:55 PM, Steve Holmes wrote:
>
>> Nah, I have run into this problem too. In my case, I was interacting
>> with the message lis
I don't know if you can upgrade your machine to Mountain Lion or not
but with Mountain Lion, I just use the built-in system notification
stuff and don't even have Growl installed. I have never used that
app.
As for Chrome vox, it may be the cdulprate here; it sounds like VO and
the native Apple s
Yet even another way is to use Dropbox. With that setup, you can just
copy the PDF or Epub formatted file, for that matter to the desired
folder within the Dropbox folder on the computer and then fire up the
Dropbox app on your iPhone and access the file. It will give you the
choice to put it int
I just put up iText Express and it shows promise as a rich text editor. Alas,
I can't seem to navigate to bookmarks. An example is the instruction manual
that comes with the editor. It has a bunch of bookmarks already defined for the
various chapters and I navigated into the drawer of bookmark
7;s the fee for using drop box?
> Regards
> Gigi
> On Jan 7, 2013, at 1:49 PM, Steve Holmes wrote:
>
>> Yet even another way is to use Dropbox. With that setup, you can just
>> copy the PDF or Epub formatted file, for that matter to the desired
>> folder within th
Another thing I've noticed is I have best results when I do not interact with
the table of tweets (the time line).
On Jan 8, 2013, at 3:30 PM, "Christopher-Mark Gilland"
wrote:
> You're not doing anything wrong, no, but it definitely shouldn't be acting
> that way.
>
> Thank you kindly,
>
>
familiar with, but managed to follow the steps it provided, only to still
> have it not work. Can someone please help out with this?
> On Jan 8, 2013, at 8:48 AM, Steve Holmes wrote:
>
>> The first 2 gigs of space is absolutely free and there are ways people can
>> in
I just put up iText Express and it shows promise as a rich text editor. Alas,
I can't seem to navigate to bookmarks. An example is the instruction manual
that comes with the editor. It has a bunch of bookmarks already defined for the
various chapters and I navigated into the drawer of bookmark
One thing I've been wondering with this method is if there is any way
to alter the name of the file to download before it is downloaded. In
other words, like in other browsers, you get a "Save as" dialog
presented. I have never seen any way to do this on the Mac. I have to
rename the file after i
you get with vo-shift-m would have. One of those items is "save linked file
> as ...".
> This brings up the "save" dialog you are wanting.
> Cheryl
>
> May the words of my mouth
> and the meditation of my heart
> be acceptable to You, Lord,
> my rock a
This news about TaxAct is very disconcerting. I used it last tax year with
Firefox on my Linux box and it worked pretty well. If a11y has gotten this
bad, I may have to move my records elsewhere.
On Jan 10, 2013, at 3:37 PM, Eugenia Firth wrote:
> Hi again guys.
> I made the change to naviga
Yes, I've been playing with bookle some more over this weekend and I figured
out something to make the book/chapter list moch more navigable. BTW, I'm the
guy who posted the thing on Applevis. I will update that post with my findings
later today.
For now, let me explain what I do to make this
Yes, I use it with iTunes all the time. It allows me to jump quickly back and
forth between the music browser and the table of current tracks. I also find
this key very useful in bookle. I use it to jump between the message list and
list of IMAP folders in Mail but for reading actual messages,
I may have said something like this a while ago but the folks at Talking
Communities had better get off their butts and upgrade to be compatible with
latest versions of java! Java security vulnerabilities are all over the place
and range from Version 4 through current version 7. this is serious
Oh and it only took two months? Man, That should take no more than a week if
manual approvals are in effect. Most lists are just wide open. I realize the
intent is to keep spam bots from signing up but still… Two months… That seems
to be the norm lately .
On Jan 13, 2013, at 9:30 AM, John Pa
That's an interesting option. I came across something similar a while back
where tables could be navigated by selecting row in the rotor and then you
could flick up and down inside a column of a table. You had to be inside a
table in order for this option to appear in the rotor. I may have to
What I would like to know is how one can get the full URL of the
currently selected link without actually opening it. An example of
this might be a download link to a file; I would be interested in
copying this direct link in case to pass along in a tweet or email or
something. So I don't want to
I wouldn't want to turn off pitch changes because then you wouldn't be
able to identify capital letters. No way in hell do I want to hear
"Capital" before every uppercase letter! I've run into that with some
other systems and I hate it! I'd much rather have a pitch change.
On 1/15/13, Matt Dierck
That might be valid in some places but I thought I read some while
back that inorder to get the download window to open in Safari that
you had to have tool bar remain visible. I could be wrong here but...
On 1/15/13, Mike Arrigo wrote:
> One thing you can also do to avoid this is diable the tool
ve set it as my
>>>> default PDF viewer), all I seem to be able to read when I interact with
>>>> the viewer pain is the document name; does this mean that the document
>>>> is simply a scanned image that was converted in to a PDF, or is there
>>>> some
How would that even be possible? With my Refreshabraille display, the bluetooth
connection terminates when the screen locks. I thought that was standard
behavior.
On Jan 15, 2013, at 8:18 PM, Chris Bruinenberg wrote:
> THanks i will try this.
>
> On Jan 15, 2013, at 8:17 PM, Alex Hall wrote
She can't use Notes in the iCloud because she is still way back on Snow Leopard.
On Jan 16, 2013, at 11:50 AM, Michael Babcock
wrote:
> Maybe, utilizing notes and iCloud might be inappropriate solution to this.
> Just a suggestion.
>
> http://empoweringtheblind.com
> Empowering the blind, one
For deleted or lost messages from this list, look in the archives.
In the meantime, try a program called ID3 Edit. I can't remember if I
got it through the Mac App Store or if I got it from a 3rd party
developer. I'm at work on a puky windows machine so can't verify this
any further right now.
O
I'm glad people are able to use tax act.com to do their taxes from the Mac.
Last year, I did it using Firefox on a linux machine and it generally went well
until I ran into their CAPTCHA that I encountered every time I wanted to efile
my return. Thank God for webvisum at the time. I sure hope th
I asked a couple times a few weeks ago on this list and didn't get a single
peep for an answer! How do you do bookmarks with this editor? I tried it and
could never get the main text area to move up to the bookmark I tried to
select. For starters, you can use the introduction manual and try nav
At least here on this list people "Top post" or "Bottom quote" which is easier
to deal with when you use something like Apple Mail and VoiceOver and let
VoiceOver auto read the message to you. But I think it a good idea to clear
out the more past parts of message quotes and just keep the most r
My following observation here applies to a broader thing than just
accessibility. I do find that smaller companies or possibly very small or
single-person developers are much more responsive to issues brought before them
than big companies. My financial institution and Southwest Airlines are t
Last thing I want to do is join more email lists.
But I like the topic of Apple Script so perhaps just include a tag like Script
or something in the subject line and those who aren't interested in it could
filter out or skip by. That's the beauty of threading messages.
On Feb 3, 2013, at 12:14
To add to this thread, you can also open the current link to a new tab by
pressing Command-Return. I like doing this particularly from a list of search
results and then I can close the tab with Command-W and be placed back to the
link I was originally on.
On Feb 4, 2013, at 5:51 AM, Chris Gilla
e only real problem I had.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Cheryl
>>>>>>
>>>>>> May the words of my mouth
>>>>>> and the meditation of my heart
>>>>>> be acceptable to
Hi Sarah and welcome to the list. This will be neet to be able to give feedback
directly to a Microsoft employee without talking around them or behind their
backs:).
I just got through reading 63 messages on this thread. I am pleased to hear
that latest version of Office for Mac is now in Coco
Your link is broken!
When I read your message about Part 1 of your Finder podcast, I hit VO-space on
the link to your episode and that takes me to Safari but the page never fills.
I just get an empty HTML page and interaction is impossible.
Any way you might use an rss feed with audio enclosure
What browser are you guys using to pull down these links? This is another
message where the link just puts me into an empty HTML page. Safari Works on
other pages so sendspace is a no-go over here.
> On Nov 23, 2014, at 7:52 AM, David Griffith wrote:
>
> Below is a link for a reference text do
This one doesn’t work either. What is wrong with these links that Safari just
comes up with an empty HTML areas? I am using latest versions of everything on
my Yosemite machine.
> On Nov 22, 2014, at 9:23 AM, David Griffith wrote:
>
> Finder Podcast 2 below.
> This one moves on from using the
Never mind. I saw the blank pages in Safari but I later found the files in my
downloads folder in Finder so I didn’t realize that a download actually took
place.
> On Nov 22, 2014, at 9:23 AM, David Griffith wrote:
>
> Finder
This one moves on from using the name: command to start looking at
I like this last message best. To add to the hope, we now have some greedy
investors demanding a guaranteed 4% return on their investment for sitting
around and doing nothing! Greedy Wall Street investors demand quick fix
solutions and responses and short term deliverables which may be contribu
This is not necessarily a molehill. what if the German courts had sided with
Samsung? this could have had repercussions worldwide. Also, it was a stay -
delay till a patent ruling is completed. In other words, it isn't over yet. We
need to keep looking back over our shoulders in case similar ru
Nope, never had this problem. Only thing I can think of is maybe looking around
in ~/library for any psettings files for yorufukurou; not sure if deleting the
app always rids you of these settings.
On Feb 18, 2013, at 5:43 AM, Jane wrote:
> Every time I try to re-open Yorufukurou, I get a noti
I recently by accident, pressed Command-M instead of Command-N to start a new
message. So instead, the inbox window got maximized and I can't find a way to
zoom it back down to normal size. As a consequence, I can no longer use the
VO-J key to toggle back and forth between the list of mail box
Has anyone found an accessible way to do this on the Mac? So far, I
come up empty. I can never find the button to start the actual update
process and the stupid website causes VO to jump all over the place.
On Thu, Apr 04, 2013 at 01:20:18PM -0400, Les Kriegler wrote:
> I understand What you were
r window
> in Mail, go to the Dock, navigate right past all the applications to the
> folders, and when you find Mail, just press Return.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Anne
>
>
> On 4 Apr 2013, at 14:57, Steve Holmes wrote:
>
> > I recently by accident, pressed Command-
I've been noticing for the past couple months or so, my machine saying "Apple
submenu" every time I move the cursor around or type individual characters in
simple edit boxes. Example: highlight a file in Finder and then hit the return
key to rename it. then start typing the new name or cursor ar
I wasn't aware of a Mac version of CuteFTP. I never liked the one for windows.
I use Transmit on the Mac and love it. Dunno about Cute on the Mac.
On Apr 9, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Jeffry Miller wrote:
> Yes, I was just wondering, which is better to use, transmit, or cute FTP? I
> am trying both of
gue wrote:
> Could it simply be caused by inadvertently moving the mouse pointer on the
> trackpad?
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Harry
>
> On Apr 21, 2013, at 12:49 PM, Kerri wrote:
>
>> Hello. I run across this when I'm reading a long document line by line.
&g
I especially like the idea of getting refunds for inaccessible apps. How many
times has someone gone out and bought an app only to find it impossible to use
with VO? That's why I like going to AppleVis to see if there is any mention of
a proposed app before buying. There won't always be somethin
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