Scott,
that's pretty much my beef, the issue for me comes down to productivity,
that alone, not price, not other, just productivity.
I'm still hopeful, and wish to become a switcher, not for peer pressure, not
for anything other than stability of the screen reader... having said this,
you n
Ricardo,
yes, in general I refer to the tab key and the arrow keys.
much of my work involves using the internet.
during which times I use internet explorer.
running JAWS I can press, H, E, T, and the arrow keys, all as single key
presses to do practically all I need to do within inter
Mary,
I suppose this is because I've lived for many years in the sighted PC
Windows environment, so I knew all the keyboard commands firstly, then
installed JAWS when eventually I couldn't see the screen using built in
inversion of colours etc...
so I have never particularly learnt JAWS key comma
Scott H,
I think the key here is not to say that the Mac users are on an individual
bases not productive, no doubt they are, I know many productive people who
use Mac's.
however, what could be considered fair perhaps is, that if you have to move
between a track pad, or number pad, or use 3
Laura,
good post, appreciated reading it...
can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.
how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
meaning you drag the mouse up there, o
Hi.
I have been using the Mac for a few months now, although before I was a windows
user. However, those of you will know my reasons for switching and although I
use windows at work, I am so glad I switched, and find if I do use windows in
Fusion, its so much better than using a windows lap top
Hi,
For nearly 3 weeks now i've been forced to use my beloved mac with only one
hand, and that includs but is not limited to typing. I've solved this problem
by using the numpad commander to perform vo operations. If you have or are
going to get a desktop mac, then this is the solution i would s
Hi there.
Is there a list somewhere of the built-in shortcut keys of osx? I guess there's
a shortcut list somewhere, i just don't know where to search.
/Krister
10 okt 2010 kl. 19.55 skrev Anne Robertson:
> Hello Neil,
>
> I've never used a PC so can't make comparisons. However, I currently have
But can you for instance edit in a document using quicknav? The reason why i
don't use it is because i find i can't edit with the quicknav turned on or am i
wrong completely?
/Krister
10 okt 2010 kl. 22.14 skrev Scott Howell:
> Ian,
>
> If you learn quicknav, I think this will help address you
Krista,
you can easily enable / disable quick nav, just press the left / right
arrows together,
Twitter @neilbarnfather
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav
Hi Neil,
When you use things like h to move among headers, you're using jaws key
commands. All those handy one key commands you use with internet explorer are
jaws, not Windows commands. And the trade off for those is the necessity of
forms mode in Jaws, browse mode in Window Eyes, etc. So enter
Mary,
you've obviously not used JAWS for a while, we've had auto forms mode now
for a good few years, this completely removes that issue, you just arrow /
tab to the edit field and JAWS auto enters it, then auto exits it for you.
very handy.
in terms of the virtual buffer, that too I believe is
I actually have a doubletalk lt (external) and I might even have access to
another. The one I have is in great shape. Send me a note to
scottn3...@gmail.com with an offer. I have the unit and adapter, but I did not
receive any manuals etc.
On Oct 10, 2010, at 11:26 PM, Tiffany D wrote:
> Well,
Hi,
On the other hand a stable Windows xP machine is much more common now than
with Windows98 or even worse Windows95. Windows 7 seems to be even more
stable than xp.
Still the Macs really have a boot time I have never seem matched on a
Windows system, and is instant ready after login, ver
Hi all,
Just a brief update on my switch.
After spending the past day and a half tweaking and testing every
display and accessibility setting that I could find, I had to admit
defeat this morning and return the Mac Mini to the store.
The problem is that the white on black feature simply does
Hi,
For some the forms mode have been a big issue, but count the times you press
the return key if you do not have auto forms mode enabled.
The probem with VO in it's current state is that it is much too hard to do
what you often do on a webpage read the text and have a fast way to avoid
unn
Hi Neil,
Correct. If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the
physical placement of an item, you can find it on the track pad which gives
you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen. Just like
on the iPhone. This leads me into my comment. I don't
Hi David,
May I suggest you right apple at accessibil...@apple.com if you haven't already
done so? I think they would find your feedback useful. They are very
responsive to suggestions. This might further your cause and help someone out
in your position in the future.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 7:4
Further to this, in OS X you use the tab key to get to important items more
quickly, while you have the option of the VO keys to pass everything. I use the
item chooser a lot though. I had been wanting something similar in windows for
a very long time, something that worked in all programs, but
Hi Neil,
I am not sure where I got John from. I do have to say this
for the Mac. I use a Mac book pro for my day to day work. This includes
working with clients in both Mac osx and Windows. I have found that the
power and performance in the Mac book pro to be nothing short of
Claus,
in terms of JFW, auto forms mode is the default, and I can think of no
reason most users would turn it off.
I do think that you are right that much of my arguement surrounds use of the
net, and although I think you're over killing the point with just how
effeciant you think JAWS is verse V
Ricardo, exactly. iTunes is one of the programs I was thinking about
last night, because the efficiency gains are so pronounced. I also
really like it on webpages like the New York Times, where articles
often have a whole lot of extra links and pictures placed in between
the text. Even with JAWS, t
Hi,
It is a good exapmle with Itunes, but >Itunes is a poorly designed windows
program, no shortcut keys jaws can find and no menues, other Windows
programs designed more keyboard friendly will give jaws at least the same
advantages.
Claus
I cannot see the advantage in
- Original Me
Also don't forget you can interact by using the Track Pad, by flicking two
fingers to the right.
Kawal Gucukoglu
On 11 Oct 2010, at 02:23 PM, Laura M wrote:
> Ricardo, exactly. iTunes is one of the programs I was thinking about
> last night, because the efficiency gains are so pronounced. I al
Yep i have to say i have found this very interesting. It's also interesting to
get diffrent peoples take on both opperating systems as i feel they are both
useful in there own ways.
In the next few weeks going to look in to some more apps for the mac such as
dragon dictate as i like to dictate
Scott,
I have two PC laptop's, the first is a Toshiba R600, the lightest laptop in
the World at just 735g, sorry none metric folk, it's not a net book, and has
full processor and 3Gb of RAM etc.
it has a 12in screen and is extraordinarily light, you pick it up and think
either it's a toy or
I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are
favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines. Yes, our states
have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive technology
while in school. However, after school, blind individuals struggle to
Hi David, would you mind sending your observations, regarding your experience
to accessibil...@apple.com... To excuse a bad pun, this appears to be a blind
spot for them, and your commentary won't help your good self, but may be useful
for future revisions and different approaches to low-vision
Hi Scott,
In part you pointed out one of my issues, that is the
lagging need to use MS-Office. I was also clear that I felt that this will
hopefully be resolved soon. Furthermore I have the need to use Openbook for
scanning and reading documents. Another area that I find that I
Claus,
again, my Toshiba R600 running Windows 7 and with an SSD, is ready to use,
from a cold start, in 17 seconds. this is fully ready, no apps still
loading, JAWS is ready and willing etc.
granted this is with an SSD and a good machine, but it's a point that should
be made. the days when stabil
Ricardo,
F6, that be the resolution, instead of tabbing all the time with Windows and
JAWS< let's take your iTunes example.
using iTunes on my PC, as I do, I do the following.
if I'm in the left tree of items, I start typing the name of say
applications, after A P is typed I'm on that section, s
David,
without a doubt, the item chooser is amazing, I do love it a lot.
Twitter @neilbarnfather
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
-Original Mess
Laura,
indeed, much of what you say makes a lot of sense to me, and frankly, is why
I'm so eager to make the switch.
in terms of iTunes, I think that this is a misconception from years gone by,
in the old days, with JAWS 8 and earlier, it was terrible with iTunes,
leading to developments such as
This morning, I discovered that, in the digest mode, I could just go
to a particular thread, have it displayed on the page and reply
individually to posts. That makes things much easier.
At any rate, I think that writing up this quick guide is an excellent
idea. Perhaps, we can work on it as a g
Heather,
I use ABBYY Find Reader Express for the Mac. ALthough this is not like the
Kurzweil product, I believe it offers something that is of equal value unless
you really need the features of such a program.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
> I am a very knew Mac user and f
Definitely, I think that what is called for, and Cara seemed to agree, is a
quick start guide written by the user for the user, gosh I sound like a
politician.
a few pages long, nothing heavy, just something which gets over the basics.
Twitter @neilbarnfather
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administr
Yes, I think there must always be a place for this kind of dialogue. I'm only
two weeks in with my plain old MacBook, not even a pro, but find it far better
than I expected prior to purchase. I do have Windows 7 on a VM on here as well
and use it for Kurzweil 1000 and some chat sites that don't
Hello Heather,
It's just like years ago I asked the state for Window Eyes. I was told, "We
only have Jaws". So it was Jaws or nothing!
So I got in the habit of buying my own equipment. But some states are giving
Macs nowadays. I know one list member who received a Macbook pro and is
extremely ha
Correct,
That is why I specifically used the example of navigating the settings on ones
IOS device. I didn't use the other options found in the source view because
the navigations is comparable on windows and Macs when navigating them.
Windows users press F6 twice and mac users press VO comma
Hi Tiffany and list! :)
Tiffany, thanks for asking about replying to digest posts.
On replying to posts; you're really welcome to respond to a post any way you'd
like as long as it keeps it's context. I.E. if you can include enough of the
original message you're responding to so that
Just run fusion and call it done, run windows and OSX on the same device.
That's what I'm doing and love it.
On Oct 10, 2010, at 6:31 PM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
> I have taken to using both computers right now. I have a mac laptop and a
> windows desktop. Grant it I use my windows desktop more
Hi Neil and list,
someone wished for a brief tutorial from a user's perspective on how best to
use Snow Leopard and Voiceover. Well, I have been struggling to do that since
getting my mac back in November of 2008 . I called it something like
novice log. Unfortunately it is anything but brief.
The ILM will work great as long as you do not make any memory or what the ILM
construes as a hardware change, memory, hard drive, or vidio. This is why I
use my dongle.
Later,
Scott
On Oct 9, 2010, at 2:27 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
> No problems of that here, I can install any Fusion I lik
Hi John, There really is nothing like simply burns for cd's on the mac. It's
really excellent. The only minor problem I have with it is that it hasn't been
updated in a while.
Best,
Erik Burggraaf
User support consultant,
One on one access technology support and training over the phone or in
When I bought my Macbook pro, I did get some help from ontario's adp program. I
didn't however get the "maximum contribution" as things like the screen reader
weren't necessary. I don't do a lot of ocr, but I did like k1000 for windows. I
think you could make a case for the macs based on ease of
The problem is while I'd agree the Mac is a great platform the business world
still prefers Windows. So to get a job after school you're really going to
have to know and understand Windows to function.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that
I personally don't like ITunes on anything. I prefer the copy and
paste method, which ITunes simply doesn't employ. I have many folders
with songs named things like Track 01, Track02 etc. Some were ripped
from cds, some were downloaded from Youtube and some I recorded from
online radio. So I re
Erik,
Where might I find Simply Burn? Thanks.
Isaac
- Original Message -
From: "erik burggraaf"
To:
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question
Hi John, There really is nothing like simply burns for cd's on the mac.
Thanks for clearing that up. As I said in my other post, I found that
I can actually go to the topics individually in the digest mode and
that makes things much easier. It also enables me to use the e-mail
with the name that I wish to make legal, that being Eleni. I've never
heard of a user payi
Hello, just wondering if anyone happens to know why k3000 has a mac partner but
k1000 does not? It does not make sense, they are made by the same company!
Heather
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Hi there!
http://simplyburns.berlios.de/
On 11 Oct 2010, at 19:16, ISAAC OBIE wrote:
> Erik,
> Where might I find Simply Burn? Thanks.
> Isaac
> - Original Message - From: "erik burggraaf"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 12:41 PM
> Subject: Re: CD burning options on the Mac and a
Hello. You do need to make sure that the flash driveis excepted to run, that is
choose the action. if youuse narator on the school comp you can dothat but if
not you will need to borrow someeyes.
On Oct 10, 2010, at 20:32, Tiffany D wrote:
> Hi Heather,
>
> You can't access JFW in those place
I coxuld not get a cd to rip though. . it only ripped a image file and i
really can't do much with that. l...@!
S
On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:41 AM, erik burggraaf wrote:
> Hi John, There really is nothing like simply burns for cd's on the mac.
> It's really excellent. The only minor problem I h
Hi:
Good for you! I'm a Mac user as well, and I too feel rehab agencies need to
present both options, and let the consumer make up their own mind. The only
program I'd ever need to use on the Windows side of things is Kurzweil.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
> I am a very kne
When you buy a Mac, you can purchase training at your local apple store for
$100 for a year's worth of training. This has been very helpful..
On Oct 11, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Kaare Dehard wrote:
> When I bought my Macbook pro, I did get some help from ontario's adp program.
> I didn't however get t
it should better be a debate.
there is No reason why windows would be favoured above apple.
Apple has the possibilaty to run windows on its machine, therefor its a
great alternative.
windows cannot do that, and the price windows pc with screanreader is also
no good, so Apple has to be mentioned
>From the marketing point of view, the absence of a k1000 makes sense. They
>need to make money on it. the parent company doesn't think the math pencils
>out. You might also note that the k3000 for the Mac has not been updated in
>some time. It is not on par with the Windows version. Again, it h
Actually, yes. Windows can do that. It just takes tweeking and
technical knowhow. However, I hear the results aren't always as good
as using a native Mac.
EWOUD wrote:
> it should better be a debate.
> there is No reason why windows would be favoured above apple.
> Apple has the possibilaty to
add that windows goes as the wind on a mac and everyone can have fusion, my
choise would be made.
For once and all, microsoft does Not provide a tool as voice-over, could or
should have done that years before! Apple does, so people who wanne live and
work independend, should also be adviced to t
I'm a Technology manager and the bottom line is that while Apple has a great
toolset and can be adapted for most business uses, the windows suite of
programs is more widely in business today. I know we had a pilot using the Mac
laptop but we used the Microsoft Office tools for presentation, E-ma
Hello, I received a response from apple accessibility about the voiceover guide
in BRF format. For those who were having problems with the file, they have
fixed it now so the file works! I tried it today and it worked just fine.
Heather
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Hi Everyone:
I really like this idea of collaborating on a quickguide based on Mac OSX, that
puts together the most proficient way of accomplishing tasks by combining the
Mac keyboard commands and the best of VO. I'm not the greatest organizer of
tasks, but I love to write, and I'd be thrilled
Dave,
Try the following.
To get rid of it go to the finder
Press command comma or VO M and go to Finder preferences
Arrow left to the Tool Bar and interact
Right arrow to the side bar, select it and stop interacting
Arrow right to Idisk and uncheck it
Arrow left to close button
HTH
Linda
On O
Hi:
I just wanted to add to Sarai's comment that, at least in my case, my Apple
store people have been incredibly cool about the one to one training. They've
set no limit on how many times I come in, and, in fact, they tend to take any
issues we discover seriously and if they can't address them
Well Neil you'd better become a Mac / VO convert right quick! -or else! *flicks
riding crop* lol!
Seriously though; no worries on any of this. :) Perhaps we could take this one
issue at a time.
if you'd like, as there are a lot of great minds here, perhaps we can go point
by point on solutions
i:
I received the following request to forward to this group. We may in fact be
closer to making something very cool happen.
Carolyn
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Alex Jurgensen
> Date: October 11, 2010 5:48:37 PM MDT
> To: Carolyn Haas
> Subject: Re: quick guide
>
> Hi Carolin,
>
>
I guess when it comes to productivity, I think they both involve the same
amount of keystrokes. As screen reader users, whether it's using the mac or
windows, there's going to be a lot of keystrokes involved, there's simply no
way around it. However, what I like about voice over is, if I navigat
This is one area where I like the way voice over handles things. You never have
to worry about accidentally typing characters in to a form field, because
pressing just the letters always types them, and there are different commands
for navigating elements. And no forms mode to deal with, move to
There is also a setting in the keyboard preferences that sets whether tab and
shift tab move to every control, or just lists and text boxes I think.
Obviously, most of us will probably want to set this so that the tab key moves
to all controls.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 7:08 AM, David Taylor wrote:
>
Yes, that's a great feature, it's great for getting around a web page also, I
often use that instead of the voice over find command.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> David,
>
> without a doubt, the item chooser is amazing, I do love it a lot.
>
> Twitter @neilbarn
I can't remember a site that doesn't work well with safari, the one case where
this happens is with flash, because Adobe refuses to make it accessible on the
mac. Other than that, the real key is to know how voice over works, once you
have learned that, getting around on the web with the mac is
You might check out my pod casts on blind cool tech, I cover this, I'm a fan of
using operating system commands when possible.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:11 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> Scott H,
>
> smile, I have enjoyed it to, and in part it has made me think that it might
> be possible
I like my training however, our store is so loud that I cant here the
voiceover or sometimes the individual at the store! I wish they had a
separate area besides in the middle of a noisy store to do one on one!
Heather
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I love my training at the Apple store. The staff is so awesome. I've learned
the Mac much faster than if I had to go it alone.
Also, tech support is wonderful! Once they hear I'm blind, and use voiceover,
they are like, okay, well do this this, and this. The call doesn't break down.
On Oct 11,
Maybe someone should start a regular podcast on these issues. I know some
folks have done this in the past but not a regular show! It would be cool
if it was a live show that folks can call in to ask or text and ask
questions! I would pay for that podcast if it was good and addressed
differe
When you refer to the states, I would imagine that you are referring to the
state rehab agencies. State rehab agencies are focused on employment, and
if they are purchasing computer equipment for a client, it is most likely
for employment related uses, and like it or not, most employers are using
That should be illegal woe!
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For
Double tapping does nothing so I can't do much. I do all kinds of things with
the IPhone. I got so frustrated that I gave my Magic Trackpad to my husband.
When you can't select anything, it's silly to keep the device.
On Oct 5, 2010, at 3:25 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:
> Hi,
>
> have you tri
Hay Mike, what is the name of your podcast? Heather
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Hi Heather:
I'm having the same issue as someone with pretty poor hearing. Fortunately for
me, we have the rest area in the mall not far from the store, and often go
there to escape the noise and save poor Melissa a lot of frustration . Maybe
at some point, ias the blind Mac user population gr
Sorry, I failed to thank you for your advice. It was much appreciated. I just
finally gavve up. I got the thing because I thought it would be like that, but
for some reason it wasn't. Maybe it was my computer, I don't know.
On Oct 5, 2010, at 3:25 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:
> Hi,
>
> have yo
BRING A HEADPHONE OR IERS WITH YOU, THAT WAY A CROWDY STORE IS NO PROBLEM!
EWOUD
- Original Message -
From: "Carolyn Haas"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information
Hi Heather:
I'm having the same issue as s
As the subject line hints, I would like to be able to play ogg files on the
Mac-and perhaps place them on to my iPhone as well. Is there any way within the
limitless bounds of Apple's world-seducing energetic power that this can be
done successfully?
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You received this message because you ar
Have you tried Mike Arrigo's podcasts on blindcooltech. After listening to
them I found the conversion to the Mac a breeze.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:37 PM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
> I like my training however, our store is so loud that I cant here the
> voiceover or sometimes the individual at the s
Hi all,
I just discovered something in i Tunes.
When you have your i Phone/i Pod plugged in,go to it, and then the
summary tab and interact. Then, go to "manually manage music", and
check it. Then, you go to the sources table. then go to your i Pod/i
Phone where it says (your name) i Pod/i Ph
IT WOULD BE A MUCH MORE QUIET PLACE HERE, IF ANYONE FIRST LISNED TO THE
PODCASTS,
DONE BY FOR EXAMPLE MIKE ORIGO, AVAILABLE ON
WWW.BLINDCOOLTECH.COM
AND THEN AFTERWORDS CAME BACK WITH APPLE / Iphone, IPOD TOUCH, V/O,
TRACKPAD, OR WHATEVER RELATED QUESTIONS.
OR AM I SAYING WEARD THINGS NOW? ANY
Heather,
First off I agree with you about the noise levels at the stores this is an
issue that Apple needs to address. When taking her one to one class my partner
uses a set of mini speakers when using voice over. And at one location, in the
mall, they set up a small table and they work right ou
I live in Austin Texas. We have an Apple corporate office here. The
university uses macs and some of the school districts too. I remember when I
had to use a mac, know one told me about voiceover. They simply said "macs are
not accessible so you cant take that class," and now the answer is,
Yes I signed up for appointments when the store opens now. It is good, I am
a morning person as long as I have my coffee! Heather
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The domain and there is not a table next to the store because, it is not in
a mall or rather it is in an outdoor mall. I think my next sessions will be
quieter as the store will have just opened. I hope! Heather
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I wonder if Apple has ever thought about this? How many computers could they
sell to the State Agencies? Seems they need a Liaison between themselves and
the various State Rehab agencies.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:44 PM, EWOUD wrote:
> it should better be a debate.
> there is No reason why window
Hey, you know what, you ought to write Steve Jobs about that. He'd go for it!!!
Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!
Skype Name:
barefootedray
On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:44 PM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
> I live in Austin Texas. We have an Apple co
Hello Heather. You must be from Austin. I also take training at the domain.
I use Laurice. She's an excellent trainer. We've been working on Pages. I'm
afraid the noise is just a fact of life and you'll have to live with it. If
you like coffee, there's a starbucks very close to the apple store. The
Hi:
They need to show it all, Mac Windows, etc. I don't like that most states'
rehab agencies dictate what the consumer will get. They should show it all, and
then taylor the technology to the consumers' specific situation, not one size
fits all. I also am aware that it is very political. If spe
Apple has a lot of contracts in the K-12 education market. They also offer
student, and teacher discounts on computers, printers, iPods, etc.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:53 PM, Pete Nalda wrote:
> I wonder if Apple has ever thought about this? How many computers could they
> sell to the State Agencie
I think they start training sessions at 7 A.M. It's usually quiet early in the
morning.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 7:46 PM, Carolyn Haas wrote:
> Hi Heather:
> I'm having the same issue as someone with pretty poor hearing. Fortunately
> for me, we have the rest area in the mall not far from the store,
As a way of further adding to the juicy pot of simmering contemplation already
well on its way to ingestible delight on this list, the reason I am now in
possession of a Macbook Pro is because of my state rehabilitation agency. I had
to undergo an "adaptive technology assessment", which is essen
Not at all correct. A proper application of technology can eliminate the
background noise and add value to the training sessions. The trainer will
need a mask microphone. The trainee will need two sets of headphones one
smaller than the other. One of those the trainer speaks on. The other
You can use vlc media player to play ogg files but the player will stop and
start almost like a buffer if you use it. I don't think you can put ogg files
on yoru IDevice.
S
On Oct 11, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Robert Hooper wrote:
> As the subject line hints, I would like to be able to play ogg files o
MyHi:
My guess is thy haven't probably worried much about the ramifications and
possible marketing opportunities with clients with disabilities. I know
they've always been big on education, and, for a while, a lot of the shools I
went to had Apple based systems.
I'd like to believe we're at t
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