Yes, that's a great feature, it's great for getting around a web page also, I often use that instead of the voice over find command. On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> David, > > without a doubt, the item chooser is amazing, I do love it a lot. > > Twitter @neilbarnfather > > Neil Barnfather > Talks List Administrator > > TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your > accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David Taylor > Sent: 11 October 2010 13:09 > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... > > Further to this, in OS X you use the tab key to get to important items more > quickly, while you have the option of the VO keys to pass everything. I use > the item chooser a lot though. I had been wanting something similar in > windows for a very long time, something that worked in all programs, but > Windows screen readers are nowhere near that level of advancement since they > have been scrabbling to deal with complex new interfaces on a program by > program basis! I love the universality of OS X > > Cheers > Dave > > On 11 Oct 2010, at 12:58, Ricardo Walker wrote: > > Hi Neil, > > Correct. If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the > physical placement of an item, you can find it on the track pad which gives > you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen. Just > like on the iPhone. This leads me into my comment. I don't think moving > your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes > you slower. For example, If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item > using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times. If I know the layout of > iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad. If your in > an environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people this > can really clear some communication hurdles. I thought just like you when I > first made the switch. "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the > same task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?" And it annoyed me. But then I > realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct > relationship to speed and or productivity. I also didn't like the concept > of interacting with elements. This is before I completely understood it's > advantages. Again, I use iTunes as an example. If you have your IOS device > hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to > your device. Same with the Mac. Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and tab. > Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then tab > a whole lot more. On the Mac, I could use the iTem chooser to find music > and it takes me right to it. Lets say for some reason I did want to press > VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser. Once I've reached music > and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that > contain the information for the button I've selected. If I don't want to > view them I don't have to. You don't have this choice on windows. Your > forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know what your > looking for. > On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: > >> Laura, >> >> good post, appreciated reading it... >> >> can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the >> screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc. >> >> how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you >> meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way >> represents the screen? >> >> thanks. >> >> Twitter @neilbarnfather >> >> Neil Barnfather >> Talks List Administrator >> >> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your >> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M >> Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50 >> To: MacVisionaries >> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... >> >> Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent >> with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no >> problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that >> it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in >> the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with >> one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently. >> I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website, >> for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading. >> I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also >> improved things, but those changes are no more extensive than anything >> I did with the JAWS keyboard manager. >> >> There are three things that really make it quicker for me: the >> trackpad, the item chooser, and--pretty surprisingly, given that I >> hated it at the start--the need for interaction. >> >> With the trackpad, if I'm on a page or a program I'm familiar with, I >> can instantly get to what I want by just touching it, as opposed to >> tabbing or arrowing however many times it takes to get there. It does >> mean taking your hand off the keyboard, yes, but the time saver is >> more than worth it, imo. There are many, many times in work now, when >> I'm using a Windows machine with no option but to tab and tab, that >> I'm beyond frustrated not to have it. That's also why the model of >> interaction helps. At the beginning, it seemed like a lot more work to >> have to interact just to get to a button, but if you've got a program >> with a lot of controls, skipping over them by groups, as opposed to >> painstakingly going past each control until you find the one you want, >> is far more efficient. >> >> The item chooser is extremely useful for similar reasons. It's not >> just present on webpages, where it gives you the JAWS functionality of >> narrowing down headers or form controls or whatever; it's in every >> program Voiceover works with. The more complicated the program, the >> more beneficial it is. >> >> I don't think Voiceover is perfect by any means. There's a level of >> customisation possible in JAWS that isn't there yet, but if we're just >> talking navigation, I think a lot of the solutions that seem backward >> at first really do pay off. And I'd also add that I feel much more >> like I'm using the Mac as sighted people do than I ever did with >> windows. With Voiceover, I'm not forced to do everything linearly; a >> friend can say, "You want the icon at the top right of the screen," >> and that's actually useful information now. There's a context to >> things that the Windows screenreaders simply didn't provide me. >> >> I also suspect there are duplicate VO keyboard commands for existing >> OS shortcuts because it was probably far more useful and common to >> lock the VO keys before quicknav came along. It's maybe not ideal now, >> but I can see why it made sense then. I listen out for whatever >> keyboard shortcuts the program menus list, and learn them, instead. >> There are also good resources on the web that list the most common >> keyboard shortcuts, which might help you out. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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