RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Scott,

 

that's pretty much my beef, the issue for me comes down to productivity,
that alone, not price, not other, just productivity.

 

I'm still hopeful, and wish to become a switcher, not for peer pressure, not
for anything other than stability of the screen reader... having said this,
you never know, the folks at FS may one day decide to do the right thing and
completely re-write JAWS from the ground up, making it more stable.

 

Twitter @neilbarnfather

 

Neil Barnfather

Talks List Administrator

 

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit
 www.talknav.com

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ford
Sent: 10 October 2010 21:35
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Hi John,

I was just mentioning on the list the other day, that I
frequently find myself needing to boot into windows on my Mac to complete
work because the application does not exist or thedoes not work as well as
on the PC.  I truly feel that the Mac software is making leaps and great
strides with every new release, however looking at the two platforms
critically I feel the Mac is just not quite there.  I am willing to bet that
within the next year this will not be the case.  The switchers are growing
by the day.  The other little option not found on the pc  is the fact that
one can boot into windows or run vm ware fusion to access windows.  On their
Mac.  I am  an Adaptive Technology specialist, every month I am getting more
and more requests about the Mac.  The truth is that many people dislike the
fact that one must use many more keys than on the pc, however we are seeing
that Apple is addressing this with each subsequent release as well.  For
example the quick nav and the magic track pad gestures for Voice over.  I
guess what I am attempting to say is  that I feel the answer is not a cut
and dried one.  There are positives and negatives on both sides of the
issue.The bottom line is that looking at a pure productivity stand point
the pc would have it hands down right now.  This will continue to change
with Apples continued commitment to voice over and the adaptive technology
that it continues to incorporate in the OS.  I hope that this helps.

Sincerely,

Scott

 

On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:





Carolyn,

 

thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do
not wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.

 

but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger
navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its
Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.

 

Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user
can use their Mac in this way.

 

All I want is that level playing field.

 

Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what
the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.

 

Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that
Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing,
sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this
conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.

 

its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other
accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or
wrongly, and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one
persons needs on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the
Apple approach to work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on
this list.

 

I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you
can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off.
this helps a lot.

 

Twitter @neilbarnfather

 

Neil Barnfather

Talks List Administrator

 

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit
 www.talknav.com

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com]on Behalf Of Carolyn
Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Hi Neil and others:

I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a
year, and only made the switch semi-successfully.  Further, I'm not a
genius, a tech expert, or even a wizzard.  I'm just a computer user who is
fascinated by what I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for
my daily functioning. 

Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS
using one finger.  That to me is a big stretch.  Unless, of course you are a
wizzard:).

Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here.  Two totally different
operating sy

RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Ricardo,

 

yes, in general I refer to the tab key and the arrow keys.

 

much of my work involves using the internet.

 during which times I use internet explorer.

 

running JAWS I can press, H, E, T, and the arrow keys, all as single key
presses to do practically all I need to do within internet explorer.

 

that's what generally I'm looking for.

 

Twitter @neilbarnfather

 

Neil Barnfather

Talks List Administrator

 

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit
 www.talknav.com

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ricardo Walker
Sent: 10 October 2010 22:13
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Hi Neil,

 

Can you give an example of this 1 finger navigation on windows?  You mean
just using tab and the arrow keys?

 

Thanks.

On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:





Carolyn,

 

thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do
not wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.

 

but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger
navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its
Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.

 

Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user
can use their Mac in this way.

 

All I want is that level playing field.

 

Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what
the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.

 

Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that
Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing,
sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this
conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.

 

its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other
accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or
wrongly, and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one
persons needs on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the
Apple approach to work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on
this list.

 

I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you
can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off.
this helps a lot.

 

Twitter @neilbarnfather

 

Neil Barnfather

Talks List Administrator

 

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit
 www.talknav.com

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Carolyn
Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Hi Neil and others:

I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a
year, and only made the switch semi-successfully.  Further, I'm not a
genius, a tech expert, or even a wizzard.  I'm just a computer user who is
fascinated by what I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for
my daily functioning. 

Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS
using one finger.  That to me is a big stretch.  Unless, of course you are a
wizzard:).

Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here.  Two totally different
operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things.  Microsoft
has been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at least the
early 90's  If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great for you.   I
also find myself frustrated by some of the fingering requirements of the OS
with Voiceover.  It's far from perfect.  But, toexpect the same level of
comfort from a system that is a standard, out-of-the-box system is putting
the bar too high for a company that is finally trying to level the
playingfield for us.

Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and
energy to get as far as I have on the MAC.  But, I did so knowing this field
hasn't been thoroughly plowed.  I wanted to have an option other than paying
Freedom Scientific another 900 to get JAWS up-to-date.  Which meant no new
computer for at least a couple more years.  So, I requested a Mac as a
Christmas present, and I'm doing my best to make this an option for me and
others who, like me, don't think we should have to pay more to get less.

Now, if I had the PC down to one-finger use, as you say you have, perhaps
I'd be telling a different story.  For now, I'm pretty happy to learn and
grow into a system as it grows and developes, rather than forking out
another thousand to line the pockets of specialty providers.

End of soapbox.  Thanks for reading.

 

Carolyn

 

 

- Original Message -

From: Neil Barnfather - 

RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Mary,

I suppose this is because I've lived for many years in the sighted PC
Windows environment, so I knew all the keyboard commands firstly, then
installed JAWS when eventually I couldn't see the screen using built in
inversion of colours etc...

so I have never particularly learnt JAWS key commands, more have continued
to use the existing Windows ones I knew. which work just fine with JAWS.

I think the issue here, and having discussed it with Cara yesterday for an
hour or so, appears to be that Voice Over's manual pays little to no
reference to the existing built in commands for OSx...

so therefore I'm learning the more complex VO commands at the get go. now I
understand that these commands are set to give universal control across any
installed application, and this approach makes sense. however, if you're
only ever using Mail, Safari and Pages, then you do not need such diverse
assurances, as Apple's standard commands will not conflict.

The idea of a second tear of commands for Vo is owing to the assurance that
many third party applications native keyboard commands won't conflict with
standard Mac OSx commands, this makes sense, but if you're only using the
core products isn't necessary to know.

so what it seems to need is a so to speak quick guide to be written, which
has listed the native commands alongside the VO ones, and really pays
attention to the quick nav feature etc.

Moving to your point about JAWS and other PC based screen readers doing just
the same, I cannot answer that question, I've never once read the manual for
JAWS, I know I believe 4 key commands for JAWS, and using these and the
arrow keys and the tab key enables me at this time to do everything I do
with my PC.

Thanks.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: 10 October 2010 22:38
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...


Neal, you have a good point about the duplicate voiceover commands. I
haven't used JAWS in a while, so things may have changed, but there was a
time when JAWS did the same, taught special JAWS commands where Windows
keyboard commands already existed. Your reference to sighted people using
keyboard commands with a Mac and Windows and you wanting to be on equal
footing with them is interesting. When somebody gives you a osX keyboard
command, why not just try it? My experience with most sighted people, except
really good keyboardists like those I use to work with or programmers who
have been around for a while is that few know any keyboard commands, and
most are totally dependent on the mouse and are lost without it. The fact
that keyboard alternatives are poorly if at all documented in mainstream
help whether for MS or Apple or 3rd party programs does not help. I have
used Windows for a long time, and I have no idea what you are talking about
when you say you do one finger navigation, unless you mean using the up and
down arrows to navigate in a document. Get a keyboard that has a number pad
and use the numpad commander that has been a part of voiceover for a while.
There is also the keyboard commander and there are those built in keyboard
commands some of which you can find and document by looking in the various
menus. 

I agree that one of the areas where Apple's support for voiceover is lacking
is compared with the documentation that comes with my Windows screen reader.

Not many programs come with thorough manuals, probably because companies
find that not enough people read them. For those of us who do prefer the
written word to hours of podcasts or learning by exploration without an
overview and examples, well, we're more or less out of luck. But I don't see
a difference there between MS and Apple either. Indeed, when it comes to
access-related documentation, Apple has it all over MS these days IMHO.

Mary Otten
motte...@gmail.com


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RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Scott H,

 

I think the key here is not to say that the Mac users are on an individual
bases not productive, no doubt they are, I know many productive people who
use Mac's.

 

however, what could be considered fair perhaps is, that if you have to move
between a track pad, or number pad, or use 3 key strokes or more to perform
tasks, then you are slower by definition then someone who keeps their hands
always in one location on a keyboard, doesn't use a track pad or number pad,
and can get most things done with a single key press.

 

this is just pure logic and physics, it doesn't mean that people using Mac's
aren't productive people, let's not get all out of shape over this point.

 

my view is simply based on one style of user keeping their hands in one
location, in general using just one key navigation, another using track
pads, number pads and 3 key string commands to navigate.

 

Twitter @neilbarnfather

 

Neil Barnfather

Talks List Administrator

 

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit
 www.talknav.com

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Howell
Sent: 11 October 2010 01:02
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Sott I just can't agree with you about the level of productivity. Whenever
someone says this, I find their scope is very narrow. If you were to base
your productivity on one application or on specialized software, perhaps
that would be true. The only software I need at work now is Microsoft
Office. This is primarily because I do not have iWork and some compatibility
issues with WOrd documents still exists. However, for research, e-mail, and
managing my calendar are all done on the Mac. So, I am just having a hard
time understanding how you can consider the "PC" (i.e. WIndows) as being
more productive when so many examples of productive users exists. Can you
further define what you mean?

On Oct 10, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Scott Ford wrote:





Hi John,

I was just mentioning on the list the other day, that I
frequently find myself needing to boot into windows on my Mac to complete
work because the application does not exist or thedoes not work as well as
on the PC.  I truly feel that the Mac software is making leaps and great
strides with every new release, however looking at the two platforms
critically I feel the Mac is just not quite there.  I am willing to bet that
within the next year this will not be the case.  The switchers are growing
by the day.  The other little option not found on the pc  is the fact that
one can boot into windows or run vm ware fusion to access windows.  On their
Mac.  I am  an Adaptive Technology specialist, every month I am getting more
and more requests about the Mac.  The truth is that many people dislike the
fact that one must use many more keys than on the pc, however we are seeing
that Apple is addressing this with each subsequent release as well.  For
example the quick nav and the magic track pad gestures for Voice over.  I
guess what I am attempting to say is  that I feel the answer is not a cut
and dried one.  There are positives and negatives on both sides of the
issue.The bottom line is that looking at a pure productivity stand point
the pc would have it hands down right now.  This will continue to change
with Apples continued commitment to voice over and the adaptive technology
that it continues to incorporate in the OS.  I hope that this helps.

Sincerely,

Scott

 

On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:





Carolyn,

 

thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do
not wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.

 

but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger
navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its
Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.

 

Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user
can use their Mac in this way.

 

All I want is that level playing field.

 

Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what
the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.

 

Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that
Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing,
sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this
conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.

 

its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other
accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or
wrongly, and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one
persons needs on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the
Apple approach to work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on
this list.

 

I have already lea

RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Laura,

good post, appreciated reading it...

can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.

how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
represents the screen?

thanks.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M
Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50
To: MacVisionaries
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent
with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no
problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that
it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in
the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with
one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently.
I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website,
for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading.
I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also
improved things, but those changes are no more extensive than anything
I did with the JAWS keyboard manager.

There are three things that really make it quicker for me: the
trackpad, the item chooser, and--pretty surprisingly, given that I
hated it at the start--the need for interaction.

With the trackpad, if I'm on a page or a program I'm familiar with, I
can instantly get to what I want by just touching it, as opposed to
tabbing or arrowing however many times it takes to get there. It does
mean taking your hand off the keyboard, yes, but the time saver is
more than worth it, imo. There are many, many times in work now, when
I'm using a Windows machine with no option but to tab and tab, that
I'm beyond frustrated not to have it. That's also why the model of
interaction helps. At the beginning, it seemed like a lot more work to
have to interact just to get to a button, but if you've got a program
with a lot of controls, skipping over them by groups, as opposed to
painstakingly going past each control until you find the one you want,
is far more efficient.

The item chooser is extremely useful for similar reasons. It's not
just present on webpages, where it gives you the JAWS functionality of
narrowing down  headers or form controls or whatever; it's in every
program Voiceover works with. The more complicated the program, the
more beneficial it is.

I don't think Voiceover is perfect by any means. There's a level of
customisation possible in JAWS that isn't there yet, but if we're just
talking navigation, I think a lot of the solutions that seem backward
at first really do pay off. And I'd also add that I feel much more
like I'm using the Mac as sighted people do than I ever did with
windows. With Voiceover, I'm not forced to do everything linearly; a
friend can say, "You want the icon at the top right of the screen,"
and that's actually useful information now. There's a context to
things that the Windows screenreaders simply didn't provide me.

I also suspect there are duplicate VO keyboard commands for existing
OS shortcuts because it was probably far more useful and common to
lock the VO keys before quicknav came along. It's maybe not ideal now,
but I can see why it made sense then. I listen out for whatever
keyboard shortcuts the program menus list, and learn them, instead.
There are also good resources on the web that list the most common
keyboard shortcuts, which might help you out.

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

Hi.

I have been using the Mac for a few months now, although before I was a windows 
user. However, those of you will know my reasons for switching and although I 
use windows at work, I am so glad I switched, and find if I do use windows in 
Fusion, its so much better than using a windows lap top. I'll never go back to 
a windows machine as I'm using voice over more and more and only use ie if 
safari doesn't work on various websites.

Kawal.
Kawal Gucukoglu

On 11 Oct 2010, at 08:26 AM, "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav"  
wrote:

> Scott,
> 
>  
> 
> that's pretty much my beef, the issue for me comes down to productivity, that 
> alone, not price, not other, just productivity.
> 
>  
> 
> I'm still hopeful, and wish to become a switcher, not for peer pressure, not 
> for anything other than stability of the screen reader... having said this, 
> you never know, the folks at FS may one day decide to do the right thing and 
> completely re-write JAWS from the ground up, making it more stable.
> 
>  
> 
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
> 
>  
> 
> Neil Barnfather
> 
> Talks List Administrator
> 
>  
> 
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
> phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
> 
>  
> 
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ford
> Sent: 10 October 2010 21:35
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
> 
>  
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> I was just mentioning on the list the other day, that I 
> frequently find myself needing to boot into windows on my Mac to complete 
> work because the application does not exist or thedoes not work as well as on 
> the PC.  I truly feel that the Mac software is making leaps and great strides 
> with every new release, however looking at the two platforms critically I 
> feel the Mac is just not quite there.  I am willing to bet that within the 
> next year this will not be the case.  The switchers are growing by the day.  
> The other little option not found on the pc  is the fact that one can boot 
> into windows or run vm ware fusion to access windows.  On their Mac.  I am  
> an Adaptive Technology specialist, every month I am getting more and more 
> requests about the Mac.  The truth is that many people dislike the fact that 
> one must use many more keys than on the pc, however we are seeing that Apple 
> is addressing this with each subsequent release as well.  For example the 
> quick nav and the magic track pad gestures for Voice over.  I guess what I am 
> attempting to say is  that I feel the answer is not a cut and dried one.  
> There are positives and negatives on both sides of the issue.The bottom 
> line is that looking at a pure productivity stand point the pc would have it 
> hands down right now.  This will continue to change with Apples continued 
> commitment to voice over and the adaptive technology that it continues to 
> incorporate in the OS.  I hope that this helps.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Scott
> 
>  
> 
> On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Carolyn,
> 
>  
> 
> thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do not 
> wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.
> 
>  
> 
> but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger 
> navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its 
> Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.
> 
>  
> 
> Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user 
> can use their Mac in this way.
> 
>  
> 
> All I want is that level playing field.
> 
>  
> 
> Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what 
> the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.
> 
>  
> 
> Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that 
> Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing, 
> sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this 
> conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.
> 
>  
> 
> its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other 
> accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or wrongly, 
> and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one persons needs 
> on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the Apple approach to 
> work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on this list.
> 
>  
> 
> I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you 
> can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off. 
> this helps a lot.
> 
>  
> 
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
> 
>  
> 
> Neil Barnfather
> 
> Talks List Administrator
> 
>  
> 
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
> phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
> 
>  
> 
> From: macvisi

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Krister Ekstrom]

Hi,
For nearly 3 weeks now i've been forced to use my beloved mac with only one 
hand, and that includs but is not limited to typing. I've solved this problem 
by using the numpad commander to perform vo operations. If you have or are 
going to get a desktop mac, then this is the solution i would suggest. There is 
a set of vo commands defined, and if you're not satisfied with them, it's easy 
to redefine the commands.
Hope this helps.
/Krister

10 okt 2010 kl. 19.02 skrev Neil Barnfather - TalkNav:

> Dear All,
> 
> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
> 
> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
> 
> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
> curve, stick with it and you'll get there...
> 
> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...
> 
> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
> hopefully answer once and for all.
> 
> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
> if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
> sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
> way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.
> 
> However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
> sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.
> 
> This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
> before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.
> 
> This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
> both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.
> 
> My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
> on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
> the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
> and of a different design.
> 
> What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
> handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
> leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.
> 
> comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
> both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
> commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.
> 
> Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
> would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
> iPad, all 3 of which I own.
> 
> However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity,
> or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user
> moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again.
> 
> *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's
> still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again.
> 
> So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for
> me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more
> importantly one finger for most commands and navigation.
> 
> I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one
> finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two
> fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself
> passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered.
> 
> So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do
> not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging
> existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's
> biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please
> forgive me if I missed up Control and Command.
> 
> Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this
> is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one
> finger for navigation of the Mac itself?
> 
> Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I
> wish to make the switch, but it has to be because it's as easy or easier,
> the fact that Voice Over is more stable is a factor, but not a huge one.
> 
> I do not buy all the secu

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Krister Ekstrom]

Hi there.
Is there a list somewhere of the built-in shortcut keys of osx? I guess there's 
a shortcut list somewhere, i just don't know where to search.
/Krister
10 okt 2010 kl. 19.55 skrev Anne Robertson:

> Hello Neil,
> 
> I've never used a PC so can't make comparisons. However, I currently have a 
> student who likes to use just one hand to operate his Mac and he does this by 
> using Quick Nav and Keyboard commander.
> 
> Everyone has different needs, so you should put in the Keyboard Commander 
> shortcuts that you need and that are not duplicated by Quick Nav. You can 
> then do most things with your right hand.
> 
> There is also nothing to stop you using the standard Mac shortcuts such as 
> Ctrl-F2 to go to the Apple menu, Ctrl-F3 to go to the Dock and Ctrl-F8 to go 
> to the Status menus.
> 
> There are lots more like this and i tend to use them rather than the VO 
> equivalents. However, with the VO keys locked, I use the VO commands instead.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> 
> On 10 Oct 2010, at 19:02, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
>> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
>> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
>> 
>> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
>> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
>> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
>> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
>> 
>> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
>> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
>> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
>> curve, stick with it and you'll get there...
>> 
>> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
>> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
>> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...
>> 
>> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
>> hopefully answer once and for all.
>> 
>> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
>> if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
>> sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
>> way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.
>> 
>> However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
>> sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.
>> 
>> This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
>> before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.
>> 
>> This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
>> both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.
>> 
>> My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
>> on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
>> the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
>> and of a different design.
>> 
>> What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
>> handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
>> leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.
>> 
>> comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
>> both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
>> commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.
>> 
>> Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
>> would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
>> iPad, all 3 of which I own.
>> 
>> However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity,
>> or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user
>> moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again.
>> 
>> *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's
>> still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again.
>> 
>> So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for
>> me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more
>> importantly one finger for most commands and navigation.
>> 
>> I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one
>> finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two
>> fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself
>> passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered.
>> 
>> So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do
>> not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging
>> existing commands / navigation com

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Krister Ekstrom]

But can you for instance edit in a document using quicknav? The reason why i 
don't use it is because i find i can't edit with the quicknav turned on or am i 
wrong completely?
/Krister

10 okt 2010 kl. 22.14 skrev Scott Howell:

> Ian,
> 
> If you learn quicknav, I think this will help address your desire to use one 
> hand instead of two. CHeck it out, I believe you will find this satisfactory.
> On Oct 10, 2010, at 3:12 PM, Ian McNamara wrote:
> 
>> Hello all i have only been a mac user for just over a month and i have to 
>> say i can see neels point. I have to say it would be good if they could 
>> create a way where like jaws the option key could become like a windows key 
>> and take you in to all the menues that way and give the controle key some of 
>> the commands that you would need voice over keys for. although i have got 
>> use to the voice over keys it is slightly anoying to have to hold them down 
>> just to move around a web sight. forinstance if you are highlighted on a 
>> check box with jaws all you have to do is press space bar how ever if you 
>> are on with voice over you have to hold them two keys down before pressing 
>> space. How ever as i said to a friend of mine on the phone the other week i 
>> do not regret making the switch to the mac and do find it in a lot of ways 
>> better to use than windows. it would just be nice if they could modify voice 
>> over a bit to make it easyer to use. sorry if this has been a bit of a 
>> ramble hope that people understand what i am getting at. 
>> 
>> Ian McNamara
>> 
>> -- 
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> 
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RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Krista,
 you can easily enable / disable quick nav, just press the left / right
arrows together,



Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Krister Ekstrom
Sent: 11 October 2010 10:48
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

But can you for instance edit in a document using quicknav? The reason why i
don't use it is because i find i can't edit with the quicknav turned on or
am i wrong completely?
/Krister

10 okt 2010 kl. 22.14 skrev Scott Howell:

> Ian,
> 
> If you learn quicknav, I think this will help address your desire to use
one hand instead of two. CHeck it out, I believe you will find this
satisfactory.
> On Oct 10, 2010, at 3:12 PM, Ian McNamara wrote:
> 
>> Hello all i have only been a mac user for just over a month and i have to
say i can see neels point. I have to say it would be good if they could
create a way where like jaws the option key could become like a windows key
and take you in to all the menues that way and give the controle key some of
the commands that you would need voice over keys for. although i have got
use to the voice over keys it is slightly anoying to have to hold them down
just to move around a web sight. forinstance if you are highlighted on a
check box with jaws all you have to do is press space bar how ever if you
are on with voice over you have to hold them two keys down before pressing
space. How ever as i said to a friend of mine on the phone the other week i
do not regret making the switch to the mac and do find it in a lot of ways
better to use than windows. it would just be nice if they could modify voice
over a bit to make it easyer to use. sorry if this has been a bit of a
ramble hope that people understand what i am getting at. 
>> 
>> Ian McNamara
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"MacVisionaries" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
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>> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Mary Otten]

Hi Neil,
When you use things like h to move among headers, you're using jaws key 
commands. All those handy one key commands you use with internet explorer are 
jaws, not Windows commands. And the trade off for those is the necessity of 
forms mode in Jaws, browse mode in Window Eyes, etc. So enter a form and 
instead of typing right away, you have to first enter forms mode, which is 
accomplished with a specific screen reader command, because that mode is not 
native to the os. Don't get me wrong. I also really like the single key 
navigation you can accomplish on the web with a windows screen reader. But 
there are productivity tradeoffs involving forms mode and loading of the 
virtual buffer. 
Mary Otten
motte...@gmail.com


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RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Mary,

you've obviously not used JAWS for a while, we've had auto forms mode now
for a good few years, this completely removes that issue, you just arrow /
tab to the edit field and JAWS auto enters it, then auto exits it for you.

very handy.

in terms of the virtual buffer, that too I believe is gone and we now have a
mirror driver, much better.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: 11 October 2010 10:54
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Hi Neil,
When you use things like h to move among headers, you're using jaws key
commands. All those handy one key commands you use with internet explorer
are jaws, not Windows commands. And the trade off for those is the necessity
of forms mode in Jaws, browse mode in Window Eyes, etc. So enter a form and
instead of typing right away, you have to first enter forms mode, which is
accomplished with a specific screen reader command, because that mode is not
native to the os. Don't get me wrong. I also really like the single key
navigation you can accomplish on the web with a windows screen reader. But
there are productivity tradeoffs involving forms mode and loading of the
virtual buffer. 
Mary Otten
motte...@gmail.com


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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Scott Howell]

I actually have a doubletalk lt (external) and I might even have access to 
another. The one I have is in great shape. Send me a note to 
scottn3...@gmail.com with an offer. I have the unit and adapter, but I did not 
receive any manuals etc.

On Oct 10, 2010, at 11:26 PM, Tiffany D wrote:

> Well, I signed into this account and forgot to sign back into my
> normal e-mail address so saw this message and figured I would respond.
> Btw, if I see something in digest mode and want to respond to it, am
> I allowed to make a separate e-mail or can I snip parts of the e-mail
> when responding so as not to create clutter?  I don't mean
> technically.  I mean according to the rules of this list.
> 
> My biggest problem with the Mac is the whole concept of interaction.
> It's bad enough that Windows has graphical menus instead of clean ones
> or a command line,, but Mac has those plus this interacting.  Even
> copying and pasting from a webpage to Text Edit is a chore!  Buddy,
> your information on quick nav certainly helped me.  I sometimes find
> it annoying when I accidentally hit the arrow keys and it turns on and
> I never really knew what it was for until now.  Teresa, you're
> absolutely right on force quitting only the misbehaving programs.
> That's one thing that Windows, and even DOS, does that truly annoys
> me.
> 
> To all those still using JFW etc.: Have you tried NVDA?  It's free and
> is truly a wonderful screenreader, mostly on par with the others.
> Also, has anyone considered simply putting Windows on the Mac with
> Bootcamp or a virtual machine?  I know the hard core Macusers will
> give me dirty looks but it is possible.  Just don't ask me how, as
> I've never done it.
> 
> To Neil: I didn't even know that duplicate commands existed.  I
> thought that the VoiceOver ones were the only ones available and that
> when the screenreader is turned off, the commands don't work.  To me,
> the concept is incredibly stupid.  To Ian: I agree with you on the
> annoyance of having to use three keys just to navigate a webpage.  Now
> that I have my IBM ThinkPad X32, I rarely use the Mac, except for
> making Youtube videos and whenever I just want to play with it for a
> change of pace.  But I remember what it was like using it full time.
> As much as I'm not a Windows fan, I was so happy when that laptop
> came!
> 
> To Dave: I never used the numpad.  Must try it on my desktop.
> Perhaps, it will make me even faster at doing things.  I would say
> that DOS beats all of these point and click systems, but then I
> remembered that VocalEyes and other screenreaders also have review
> modes.  I never thought of it that way with an os that's designed to
> be used with the keyboard, but you're right.  Our access is different.
> 
> To Teresa: I didn't know that there are Windows commands that have
> their counterparts in screenreader ones.  How do I get ahold of that
> manual?  I completely agree with you about not doing something if it
> doesn't feel right.  It seems like everyone is trying to get me to use
> some form of Linux because I like the command line.  But I have
> absolutely no desire to learn it or Unix for that matter.  I'd much
> rather learn Enhanced Dr-DOS or FreeDOS.
> 
> To Scott: Not everyone likes touch screens.  I keep hearing about all
> the benefits of the I products but refuse to get them because they
> don't have real keyboards.  I wish that they would do something about
> this and not by forcing people to buy external ones and still use
> gestures either.
> 
> Talk soon,
> Eleni
> PS. Still looking for a good hardware synth.  If anyone has a KeyNote
> Gold especially, a DecTalk Express or PC, a Double Talk LT or PC or a
> Greek-speaking Apollo, please let me know.  Also still haven't gotten
> the Apple IIGS out to play with Proterm but will update you guys on my
> progress when I do.
> 
> On 10/10/2010, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
>> Hi, if you have a desktop computer, you can use the numpad commander, and
>> this allows you to use the numpad for most commands. Also, you can turn on
>> the quick nav feature and this will allow you to use the regular arrow keys
>> for navigation. I actually enjoy navigating with the track pad, true, I do
>> have to remove my hand from the keyboard to do that, but that's no big deal
>> for me.
>> On Oct 10, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear All,
>>> 
>>> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no
>>> need
>>> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
>>> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
>>> 
>>> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
>>> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential
>>> piece
>>> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
>>> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
>>> 
>>> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Claus Thøgersen]

Hi,

On the other hand a stable Windows xP machine is much more common now than 
with Windows98 or even worse Windows95.  Windows 7 seems to be even more 
stable than xp.


Still the  Macs really have a boot time I have never seem matched on a 
Windows system, and is instant ready after login, very much unlike my XP 
machine that uses about 2 extra minutes to load applications. This is only 
tolerable because hybernation works on that pc.


Claus

- Original Message - 
From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...



Teresa,

as I've pointed out, gone are the days of the blue screen of death on a 
PC.
I never have application crashes which bring down the whole machine, 
haven't

done so for many years now.

this is purely about navigation with a Mac.



Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Teresa Cochran
Sent: 10 October 2010 18:37
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Hi, Neil,

I'm commenting before I read the other replies, so that I can give you my
own response to what you've written.

First, you can use QuickNav in Voiceover, which will give you most
screen-reader commands with two fingers on one hand.

Secondly, in my experience, when one application freezes on the Mac, this
doesn't take down the entire session and cause a blue screen. It's only
necessary to force-quit the misbehaving application ancd stay in the
desktop. I've gone for weeks without restarting the desktop, much less
restarting the computer. I have never done this on Windows. This, to me, 
is

a big plus.

Teresa

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Re: Pondering the switch to a Mac (blind but with residual vision)

[David Goodwin]

Hi all,

Just a brief update on my switch.

After spending the past day and a half tweaking and testing every 
display and accessibility setting that I could find, I had to admit 
defeat this morning and return the Mac Mini to the store.


The problem is that the white on black feature simply doesn't do what 
its name suggests it should. Tweaking of the greyscale and contrast 
settings failed to help. At best it left too many dark on light elements 
on the screen, at worst it caused the text to go quite blurry 
(particularly when trying to use the zoom feature).


I am sure that I will revisit the Mac option when my sight reaches a 
level where a screen reader is the only option, but for now I shall be 
sticking with my PC.


I guess I might also revisit the idea of getting a Mac if Apple realize 
that colour conversion is not the same as white on black.


It's been a rather frustrating and disappointing few days, but thanks to 
all those who have offered support and suggestions.


David

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Claus Thøgersen]

Hi,

For some the forms mode have been a big issue, but count the times you press 
the return key if you do not have auto forms mode enabled.


The probem with VO in it's current state is that it is much too hard to do 
what you often do on a webpage read the text and have a fast way to avoid 
unnecessary controls.  Maybe a trackpad is the way to go, and I will 
probably get one sometime.


Currently I miss the simple way of reading text on webpages, and >I have 
seen people suggesting to paste text into textedit for easier reading from a 
webpage wich suggests that there is a problem here.


Even with the quick keys  I cannot remember the vo name for it, it seems as 
if the keyboard focus does not move to the place where the quick keys leave 
the cursor, at least not if I use the tab key after I have used a quick key.


Also VO cannot save settings specific to a website or domain, wich mean you 
have to remember if it is dom mode or the other mode you need to use. The 
same with tables you have 2 choices if it does not work as expected.


There is a table command but unlike jaws you have to manually move into the 
table VO does not place you in the first cell wich works much better 
especially because VO cannot give a name to a table in the rotor or with 
quick keys each table on a page is only identified as a table.


Maybe I will find faster routines on the Mac but currently on many of my 
favorite websites JFW is much much faster and I only try out the Mac to get 
used to VO, but it is not at all efficient!


Claus

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi Neil,

Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the 
physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives 
you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just like 
on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving your hand 
from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes you slower.  
For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item using JFW I might 
have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of iTunes on a Mac, I 
can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in an environment where 
you have to work side by side with sighted people this can really clear some 
communication hurdles.  I thought just like you when I first made the switch.  
"Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the same task the only took 1 
finger with Jaws?"  And it annoyed me.  But then I realized that the number of 
keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct relationship to speed and or 
productivity.  I also didn't like the concept of interacting with elements.  
This is before I completely understood it's advantages.  Again, I use iTunes as 
an example.  If you have your IOS device hooked up to your windows PC you go to 
the sources list and arrow down to your device.  Same with the Mac.  Then, on 
Windows, you tab and tab and tab.  Then when you've reached the button you want 
like music, you select then tab a whole lot more.  On the Mac,  I could use the 
iTem chooser to find music and it takes me right to it.  Lets say for some 
reason I did want to press VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser.  
Once I've reached music and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the 
scroll areas that contain the information for the button I've selected.  If I 
don't want to view them I don't have to.  You don't have this choice on 
windows.  Your forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know 
what your looking for. 
On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Laura,
> 
> good post, appreciated reading it...
> 
> can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
> screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.
> 
> how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
> meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
> represents the screen?
> 
> thanks.
> 
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
> 
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
> 
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M
> Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50
> To: MacVisionaries
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
> 
> Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent
> with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no
> problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that
> it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in
> the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with
> one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently.
> I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website,
> for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading.
> I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also
> improved things, but those changes are no more extensive than anything
> I did with the JAWS keyboard manager.
> 
> There are three things that really make it quicker for me: the
> trackpad, the item chooser, and--pretty surprisingly, given that I
> hated it at the start--the need for interaction.
> 
> With the trackpad, if I'm on a page or a program I'm familiar with, I
> can instantly get to what I want by just touching it, as opposed to
> tabbing or arrowing however many times it takes to get there. It does
> mean taking your hand off the keyboard, yes, but the time saver is
> more than worth it, imo. There are many, many times in work now, when
> I'm using a Windows machine with no option but to tab and tab, that
> I'm beyond frustrated not to have it. That's also why the model of
> interaction helps. At the beginning, it seemed like a lot more work to
> have to interact just to get to a button, but if you've got a program
> with a lot of controls, skipping over them by groups, as opposed to
> painstakingly going past each control until you find the one you want,
> is far more efficient.
> 
> The item chooser is extremely useful for similar reasons. It's not
> just present on webpages, where it gives you the JAWS functionality of
> narrowing down  headers or form controls or whatever; it's in every
> program Voiceover works with. The more complicated the program, the
> more beneficial it is.
> 
> I don't think Voiceover is per

Re: Pondering the switch to a Mac (blind but with residual vision)

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi David,

May I suggest you right apple at accessibil...@apple.com if you haven't already 
done so?  I think they would find your feedback useful.  They are very 
responsive to suggestions.  This might further your cause and help someone out 
in your position in the future.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 7:45 AM, David Goodwin wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Just a brief update on my switch.
> 
> After spending the past day and a half tweaking and testing every display and 
> accessibility setting that I could find, I had to admit defeat this morning 
> and return the Mac Mini to the store.
> 
> The problem is that the white on black feature simply doesn't do what its 
> name suggests it should. Tweaking of the greyscale and contrast settings 
> failed to help. At best it left too many dark on light elements on the 
> screen, at worst it caused the text to go quite blurry (particularly when 
> trying to use the zoom feature).
> 
> I am sure that I will revisit the Mac option when my sight reaches a level 
> where a screen reader is the only option, but for now I shall be sticking 
> with my PC.
> 
> I guess I might also revisit the idea of getting a Mac if Apple realize that 
> colour conversion is not the same as white on black.
> 
> It's been a rather frustrating and disappointing few days, but thanks to all 
> those who have offered support and suggestions.
> 
> David
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[David Taylor]

Further to this, in OS X you use the tab key to get to important items more 
quickly, while you have the option of the VO keys to pass everything. I use the 
item chooser a lot though. I had been wanting something similar in windows for 
a very long time, something that worked in all programs, but Windows screen 
readers are nowhere near that level of advancement since they have been 
scrabbling to deal with complex new interfaces on a program by program basis! I 
love the universality of OS X

Cheers
Dave

On 11 Oct 2010, at 12:58, Ricardo Walker wrote:

Hi Neil,

Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the 
physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives 
you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just like 
on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving your hand 
from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes you slower.  
For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item using JFW I might 
have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of iTunes on a Mac, I 
can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in an environment where 
you have to work side by side with sighted people this can really clear some 
communication hurdles.  I thought just like you when I first made the switch.  
"Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the same task the only took 1 
finger with Jaws?"  And it annoyed me.  But then I realized that the number of 
keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct relationship to speed and or 
productivity.  I also didn't like the concept of interacting with elements.  
This is before I completely understood it's advantages.  Again, I use iTunes as 
an example.  If you have your IOS device hooked up to your windows PC you go to 
the sources list and arrow down to your device.  Same with the Mac.  Then, on 
Windows, you tab and tab and tab.  Then when you've reached the button you want 
like music, you select then tab a whole lot more.  On the Mac,  I could use the 
iTem chooser to find music and it takes me right to it.  Lets say for some 
reason I did want to press VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser.  
Once I've reached music and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the 
scroll areas that contain the information for the button I've selected.  If I 
don't want to view them I don't have to.  You don't have this choice on 
windows.  Your forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know 
what your looking for. 
On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Laura,
> 
> good post, appreciated reading it...
> 
> can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
> screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.
> 
> how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
> meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
> represents the screen?
> 
> thanks.
> 
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
> 
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
> 
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M
> Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50
> To: MacVisionaries
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
> 
> Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent
> with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no
> problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that
> it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in
> the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with
> one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently.
> I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website,
> for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading.
> I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also
> improved things, but those changes are no more extensive than anything
> I did with the JAWS keyboard manager.
> 
> There are three things that really make it quicker for me: the
> trackpad, the item chooser, and--pretty surprisingly, given that I
> hated it at the start--the need for interaction.
> 
> With the trackpad, if I'm on a page or a program I'm familiar with, I
> can instantly get to what I want by just touching it, as opposed to
> tabbing or arrowing however many times it takes to get there. It does
> mean taking your hand off the keyboard, yes, but the time saver is
> more than worth it, imo. There are many, many times in work now, when
> I'm using a Windows machine with no option but to tab and tab, that
> I'm beyond frustrated not to have it. That's also why the model of
> interaction helps. At the beginning, it seemed like a lot more work to
> have to interact just

RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Scott Ford]

Hi Neil,

I am not sure where I got John from.  I do have to say this
for the Mac.  I use a Mac book pro for my day to day  work.  This includes
working with clients in both Mac osx and Windows.  I have found that the
power and performance in the Mac book pro to be nothing short  of great.  I
also have a very nice dell that is equal to the Mac in just about every way.
Where it really falls short is in the form factor.  My dell is just about
twice as thick and half again as heavy.  I can pop the Mac and it's power
supply in my book bag and it is much thinner than any book that I need to
carry.  This may be a minor thing to most, however I also carry my BN apex
around as well.  These devices really add up to a lot of weight quickly.
Just a bit more food for thought.

Sincerely,

Scott

 

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Neil Barnfather -
TalkNav
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:27 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Scott,

 

that's pretty much my beef, the issue for me comes down to productivity,
that alone, not price, not other, just productivity.

 

I'm still hopeful, and wish to become a switcher, not for peer pressure, not
for anything other than stability of the screen reader... having said this,
you never know, the folks at FS may one day decide to do the right thing and
completely re-write JAWS from the ground up, making it more stable.

 

Twitter @neilbarnfather

 

Neil Barnfather

Talks List Administrator

 

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ford
Sent: 10 October 2010 21:35
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Hi John,

I was just mentioning on the list the other day, that I
frequently find myself needing to boot into windows on my Mac to complete
work because the application does not exist or thedoes not work as well as
on the PC.  I truly feel that the Mac software is making leaps and great
strides with every new release, however looking at the two platforms
critically I feel the Mac is just not quite there.  I am willing to bet that
within the next year this will not be the case.  The switchers are growing
by the day.  The other little option not found on the pc  is the fact that
one can boot into windows or run vm ware fusion to access windows.  On their
Mac.  I am  an Adaptive Technology specialist, every month I am getting more
and more requests about the Mac.  The truth is that many people dislike the
fact that one must use many more keys than on the pc, however we are seeing
that Apple is addressing this with each subsequent release as well.  For
example the quick nav and the magic track pad gestures for Voice over.  I
guess what I am attempting to say is  that I feel the answer is not a cut
and dried one.  There are positives and negatives on both sides of the
issue.The bottom line is that looking at a pure productivity stand point
the pc would have it hands down right now.  This will continue to change
with Apples continued commitment to voice over and the adaptive technology
that it continues to incorporate in the OS.  I hope that this helps.

Sincerely,

Scott

 

On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

 

Carolyn,

 

thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do
not wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.

 

but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger
navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its
Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.

 

Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user
can use their Mac in this way.

 

All I want is that level playing field.

 

Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what
the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.

 

Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that
Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing,
sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this
conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.

 

its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other
accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or
wrongly, and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one
persons needs on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the
Apple approach to work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on
this list.

 

I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you
can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off.
this helps a lot.

 

Twitter @nei

RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Claus,

in terms of JFW, auto forms mode is the default, and I can think of no
reason most users would turn it off.

I do think that you are right that much of my arguement surrounds use of the
net, and although I think you're over killing the point with just how
effeciant you think JAWS is verse VO, I do think that it is a degree more
so.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Claus Thøgersen
Sent: 11 October 2010 12:52
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Hi,

For some the forms mode have been a big issue, but count the times you press

the return key if you do not have auto forms mode enabled.

The probem with VO in it's current state is that it is much too hard to do 
what you often do on a webpage read the text and have a fast way to avoid 
unnecessary controls.  Maybe a trackpad is the way to go, and I will 
probably get one sometime.

Currently I miss the simple way of reading text on webpages, and >I have 
seen people suggesting to paste text into textedit for easier reading from a

webpage wich suggests that there is a problem here.

Even with the quick keys  I cannot remember the vo name for it, it seems as 
if the keyboard focus does not move to the place where the quick keys leave 
the cursor, at least not if I use the tab key after I have used a quick key.

Also VO cannot save settings specific to a website or domain, wich mean you 
have to remember if it is dom mode or the other mode you need to use. The 
same with tables you have 2 choices if it does not work as expected.

There is a table command but unlike jaws you have to manually move into the 
table VO does not place you in the first cell wich works much better 
especially because VO cannot give a name to a table in the rotor or with 
quick keys each table on a page is only identified as a table.

Maybe I will find faster routines on the Mac but currently on many of my 
favorite websites JFW is much much faster and I only try out the Mac to get 
used to VO, but it is not at all efficient!

Claus

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Laura M]

Ricardo, exactly. iTunes is one of the programs I was thinking about
last night, because the efficiency gains are so pronounced. I also
really like it on webpages like the New York Times, where articles
often have a whole lot of extra links and pictures placed in between
the text. Even with JAWS, there was no keystroke that would
automatically jump through all of that, but it's only a drag of my
finger on the trackpad to bypass it now.

Neil, I think you use an iPhone, and the gestures to operate the
trackpad are almost exactly the same. You can flick between items, or
just touch what you want if you know where it is, and if it's an
actionable item you're touching, you just double tap. The rotor also
works in the same way as it does on the iPhone, so you could navigate
a website using one finger with the trackpad, just as easily as you
could with the arrow keys.

I know you've just been asking about navigation, and I'm definitely
not advocating that you switch if you still feel like VO doesn't cut
it for you in that regard, but one of the other things I really like
about being on a Mac right now is that because of the iPhone, there's
a lot of Voiceover development going on and getting tested even before
Mac updates. I really like the way both technologies are merging;
there's stuff on the iPhone I recognise from the Mac, and I don't
doubt that when 10.7 arrives, some of the new stuff I've seen on the
iPhone will have migrated there, just as it did in 10.6. I don't have
any axe to grind against JAWS--it gave me access I wouldn't have had
for many, many years, but at the moment, VO is the platform that seems
to be doing the innovative stuff. There are, of course, disadvantages
in picking the newer technology (as I mentioned last night, there's
some customisation options I'd really like Voiceover to implement) but
the more I use Voiceover, in all its forms, the more I feel that it's
getting far closer to really putting us on a level playing field.

Ricardo Walker wrote:
> Hi Neil,
>
> Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the 
> physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives 
> you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just 
> like on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving 
> your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes you 
> slower.  For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item using JFW 
> I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of iTunes on a 
> Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in an 
> environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people this can 
> really clear some communication hurdles.  I thought just like you when I 
> first made the switch.  "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the same 
> task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?"  And it annoyed me.  But then I 
> realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct 
> relationship to speed and or productivity.  I also didn't like the concept of 
> interacting with elements.  This is before I completely understood it's 
> advantages.  Again, I use iTunes as an example.  If you have your IOS device 
> hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to 
> your device.  Same with the Mac.  Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and tab.  
> Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then tab 
> a whole lot more.  On the Mac,  I could use the iTem chooser to find music 
> and it takes me right to it.  Lets say for some reason I did want to press VO 
> right arrow instead of using the item chooser.  Once I've reached music and 
> selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that contain 
> the information for the button I've selected.  If I don't want to view them I 
> don't have to.  You don't have this choice on windows.  Your forced to pass 
> every element which takes up time when you know what your looking for.
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
>
> > Laura,
> >
> > good post, appreciated reading it...
> >
> > can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
> > screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.
> >
> > how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
> > meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
> > represents the screen?
> >
> > thanks.
> >
> > Twitter @neilbarnfather
> >
> > Neil Barnfather
> > Talks List Administrator
> >
> > TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> > accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
> >

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Claus Thøgersen]

Hi,

It is a good exapmle with Itunes, but >Itunes is a poorly designed  windows 
program, no shortcut keys jaws can find and no menues, other Windows 
programs designed more keyboard friendly will give jaws at least the same 
advantages.


Claus

I cannot see the advantage in



- Original Message - 
From: "Ricardo Walker" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...


Hi Neil,

Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the 
physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives 
you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just 
like on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving 
your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes 
you slower.  For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item 
using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of 
iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in 
an environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people this 
can really clear some communication hurdles.  I thought just like you when I 
first made the switch.  "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the 
same task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?"  And it annoyed me.  But then I 
realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct 
relationship to speed and or productivity.  I also didn't like the concept 
of interacting with elements.  This is before I completely understood it's 
advantages.  Again, I use iTunes as an example.  If you have your IOS device 
hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to 
your device.  Same with the Mac.  Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and tab. 
Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then tab 
a whole lot more.  On the Mac,  I could use the iTem chooser to find music 
and it takes me right to it.  Lets say for some reason I did want to press 
VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser.  Once I've reached music 
and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that 
contain the information for the button I've selected.  If I don't want to 
view them I don't have to.  You don't have this choice on windows.  Your 
forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know what your 
looking for.

On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:


Laura,

good post, appreciated reading it...

can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.

how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
represents the screen?

thanks.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M
Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50
To: MacVisionaries
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent
with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no
problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that
it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in
the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with
one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently.
I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website,
for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading.
I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also
improved things, but those changes are no more extensive than anything
I did with the JAWS keyboard manager.

There are three things that really make it quicker for me: the
trackpad, the item chooser, and--pretty surprisingly, given that I
hated it at the start--the need for interaction.

With the trackpad, if I'm on a page or a program I'm familiar with, I
can instantly get to what I want by just touching it, as opposed to
tabbing or arrowing however many times it takes to get there. It does
mean taking your hand off the keyboard, yes, but the time saver is
more than worth it, imo. There are many, many times in work now, when
I'm using a Windows machine with no option but to tab and tab, that
I'm beyond frustrated not to have it. That's also why the model of
interaction helps. At the beginning, it seemed like a lot more work to
have to interact just to get to a button, but if you've got a program
with a lot of controls, skipping over them by groups, as opposed to
painstakingly going past each control until you find the one you want,
is far more efficient.

The item chooser is e

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

Also don't forget you can interact by using the Track Pad, by flicking two 
fingers to the right.

Kawal Gucukoglu

On 11 Oct 2010, at 02:23 PM, Laura M  wrote:

> Ricardo, exactly. iTunes is one of the programs I was thinking about
> last night, because the efficiency gains are so pronounced. I also
> really like it on webpages like the New York Times, where articles
> often have a whole lot of extra links and pictures placed in between
> the text. Even with JAWS, there was no keystroke that would
> automatically jump through all of that, but it's only a drag of my
> finger on the trackpad to bypass it now.
> 
> Neil, I think you use an iPhone, and the gestures to operate the
> trackpad are almost exactly the same. You can flick between items, or
> just touch what you want if you know where it is, and if it's an
> actionable item you're touching, you just double tap. The rotor also
> works in the same way as it does on the iPhone, so you could navigate
> a website using one finger with the trackpad, just as easily as you
> could with the arrow keys.
> 
> I know you've just been asking about navigation, and I'm definitely
> not advocating that you switch if you still feel like VO doesn't cut
> it for you in that regard, but one of the other things I really like
> about being on a Mac right now is that because of the iPhone, there's
> a lot of Voiceover development going on and getting tested even before
> Mac updates. I really like the way both technologies are merging;
> there's stuff on the iPhone I recognise from the Mac, and I don't
> doubt that when 10.7 arrives, some of the new stuff I've seen on the
> iPhone will have migrated there, just as it did in 10.6. I don't have
> any axe to grind against JAWS--it gave me access I wouldn't have had
> for many, many years, but at the moment, VO is the platform that seems
> to be doing the innovative stuff. There are, of course, disadvantages
> in picking the newer technology (as I mentioned last night, there's
> some customisation options I'd really like Voiceover to implement) but
> the more I use Voiceover, in all its forms, the more I feel that it's
> getting far closer to really putting us on a level playing field.
> 
> Ricardo Walker wrote:
>> Hi Neil,
>> 
>> Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the 
>> physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives 
>> you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just 
>> like on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving 
>> your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes 
>> you slower.  For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item 
>> using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of 
>> iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in 
>> an environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people this 
>> can really clear some communication hurdles.  I thought just like you when I 
>> first made the switch.  "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the 
>> same task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?"  And it annoyed me.  But then I 
>> realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct 
>> relationship to speed and or productivity.  I also didn't like the concept 
>> of interacting with elements.  This is before I completely understood it's 
>> advantages.  Again, I use iTunes as an example.  If you have your IOS device 
>> hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to 
>> your device.  Same with the Mac.  Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and tab. 
>>  Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then 
>> tab a whole lot more.  On the Mac,  I could use the iTem chooser to find 
>> music and it takes me right to it.  Lets say for some reason I did want to 
>> press VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser.  Once I've reached 
>> music and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas 
>> that contain the information for the button I've selected.  If I don't want 
>> to view them I don't have to.  You don't have this choice on windows.  Your 
>> forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know what your 
>> looking for.
>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
>> 
>>> Laura,
>>> 
>>> good post, appreciated reading it...
>>> 
>>> can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
>>> screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.
>>> 
>>> how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
>>> meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
>>> represents the screen?
>>> 
>>> thanks.
>>> 
>>> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>>> 
>>> Neil Barnfather
>>> Talks List Administrator
>>> 
>>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
>>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enq

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Ian McNamara]

Yep i have to say i have found this very interesting. It's also interesting to 
get diffrent peoples take on both opperating systems as i feel they are both 
useful in there own ways. 

In the next few weeks going to look in to some more apps for the mac such as 
dragon dictate as i like to dictate to my computer when i am doing things like 
creative righting.

Ian McNamara

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RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Scott,

 

I have two PC laptop's, the first is a Toshiba R600, the lightest laptop in
the World at just 735g, sorry none metric folk, it's not a net book, and has
full processor and 3Gb of RAM etc.

 

it has a 12in screen and is extraordinarily light, you pick it up and think
either it's a toy or that they forgot to put the components in it. that's
why though it holds the records as the lightest laptop in the World.

 

My Sony VAIO big brother is solid, well built and as light in weight as the
comparative Mac product.

 

but please, again, I do not wish to make this a this is better argument,
really the point was to educate myself if there was a better way of using
just the keyboard.

 

thus far I have found out two key things, firstly how to use Safari better
with the tab key, in effect making it auto enter certain types of forms...

 

also I have found that I can use standard OSx keyboard commands which are
shorter than the VO comparative.

 

these two things alone make my thinking more level, which was the purpose of
asking the question.

 

I'm not yet of the opinion that its more efficient, but I'm working on it.

 

Twitter @neilbarnfather

 

Neil Barnfather

Talks List Administrator

 

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit
 www.talknav.com

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ford
Sent: 11 October 2010 14:12
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Hi Neil,

I am not sure where I got John from.  I do have to say this
for the Mac.  I use a Mac book pro for my day to day  work.  This includes
working with clients in both Mac osx and Windows.  I have found that the
power and performance in the Mac book pro to be nothing short  of great.  I
also have a very nice dell that is equal to the Mac in just about every way.
Where it really falls short is in the form factor.  My dell is just about
twice as thick and half again as heavy.  I can pop the Mac and it's power
supply in my book bag and it is much thinner than any book that I need to
carry.  This may be a minor thing to most, however I also carry my BN apex
around as well.  These devices really add up to a lot of weight quickly.
Just a bit more food for thought.

Sincerely,

Scott

 

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Neil Barnfather -
TalkNav
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:27 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Scott,

 

that's pretty much my beef, the issue for me comes down to productivity,
that alone, not price, not other, just productivity.

 

I'm still hopeful, and wish to become a switcher, not for peer pressure, not
for anything other than stability of the screen reader... having said this,
you never know, the folks at FS may one day decide to do the right thing and
completely re-write JAWS from the ground up, making it more stable.

 

Twitter @neilbarnfather

 

Neil Barnfather

Talks List Administrator

 

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ford
Sent: 10 October 2010 21:35
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Hi John,

I was just mentioning on the list the other day, that I
frequently find myself needing to boot into windows on my Mac to complete
work because the application does not exist or thedoes not work as well as
on the PC.  I truly feel that the Mac software is making leaps and great
strides with every new release, however looking at the two platforms
critically I feel the Mac is just not quite there.  I am willing to bet that
within the next year this will not be the case.  The switchers are growing
by the day.  The other little option not found on the pc  is the fact that
one can boot into windows or run vm ware fusion to access windows.  On their
Mac.  I am  an Adaptive Technology specialist, every month I am getting more
and more requests about the Mac.  The truth is that many people dislike the
fact that one must use many more keys than on the pc, however we are seeing
that Apple is addressing this with each subsequent release as well.  For
example the quick nav and the magic track pad gestures for Voice over.  I
guess what I am attempting to say is  that I feel the answer is not a cut
and dried one.  There are positives and negatives on both sides of the
issue.The bottom line is that looking at a pure productivity stand point
the pc would have it hands down right now.  This will continue to change
with Apples continued commitment to voice over and the adaptive technology
that it continues to

please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[heather kd5cbl]

I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive technology 
while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals struggle to keep 
their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter about the mac for 
blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc.  I wanted to make the case 
that the states should not be so geared to window based machines for there 
blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR solutions for the Mac like 
we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.  Also I am not sure about the braille 
translation programs for the macs as we have mega dots or Duxbury for the 
windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, eclipse reders and for our 
textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I wanted to know about it.  I am 
trying to convince our rehab department that they need to show both options to 
their consumers.  I plan on submitting my letter at the end of the week to are 
rehab department.  Thank you, Heather 

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Re: Pondering the switch to a Mac (blind but with residual vision)

[Kaare Dehard]

Hi David, would you mind sending your observations, regarding your experience 
to accessibil...@apple.com... To excuse a bad pun, this appears to be a blind 
spot for them, and your commentary won't help your good self, but may be useful 
for future revisions and different approaches to low-vision use.

Cheers, 

Kaare.
On 2010-10-11, at 7:45 AM, David Goodwin wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Just a brief update on my switch.
> 
> After spending the past day and a half tweaking and testing every display and 
> accessibility setting that I could find, I had to admit defeat this morning 
> and return the Mac Mini to the store.
> 
> The problem is that the white on black feature simply doesn't do what its 
> name suggests it should. Tweaking of the greyscale and contrast settings 
> failed to help. At best it left too many dark on light elements on the 
> screen, at worst it caused the text to go quite blurry (particularly when 
> trying to use the zoom feature).
> 
> I am sure that I will revisit the Mac option when my sight reaches a level 
> where a screen reader is the only option, but for now I shall be sticking 
> with my PC.
> 
> I guess I might also revisit the idea of getting a Mac if Apple realize that 
> colour conversion is not the same as white on black.
> 
> It's been a rather frustrating and disappointing few days, but thanks to all 
> those who have offered support and suggestions.
> 
> David
> 
> -- 
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RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Scott Ford]

Hi Scott,

In part you pointed out one of my issues, that is the
lagging need to use MS-Office.  I was also clear that I felt that this will
hopefully be resolved soon.  Furthermore I have the need to use Openbook for
scanning and reading documents.  Another area that I find that I must resort
to windows is while browsing the web.  Safari is just not up to the task in
all cases.  We had a thread the other day talking about this.  Just about
weekly we have someone telling about a web site that they cannot access with
safari.  I must access a site for bids with the government and safari will
not display properly with vo.  I love the mail app, however you may notice
that I am in windows right now.  That is because my professor is about to
send me a quiz that I must use MS-Office to access for now.  I have tried
like hell to make a total switch, however at this time it is just not
possible for me.  

Sincerely,

Scott

 

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Howell
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:02 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Sott I just can't agree with you about the level of productivity. Whenever
someone says this, I find their scope is very narrow. If you were to base
your productivity on one application or on specialized software, perhaps
that would be true. The only software I need at work now is Microsoft
Office. This is primarily because I do not have iWork and some compatibility
issues with WOrd documents still exists. However, for research, e-mail, and
managing my calendar are all done on the Mac. So, I am just having a hard
time understanding how you can consider the "PC" (i.e. WIndows) as being
more productive when so many examples of productive users exists. Can you
further define what you mean?

On Oct 10, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Scott Ford wrote:





Hi John,

I was just mentioning on the list the other day, that I
frequently find myself needing to boot into windows on my Mac to complete
work because the application does not exist or thedoes not work as well as
on the PC.  I truly feel that the Mac software is making leaps and great
strides with every new release, however looking at the two platforms
critically I feel the Mac is just not quite there.  I am willing to bet that
within the next year this will not be the case.  The switchers are growing
by the day.  The other little option not found on the pc  is the fact that
one can boot into windows or run vm ware fusion to access windows.  On their
Mac.  I am  an Adaptive Technology specialist, every month I am getting more
and more requests about the Mac.  The truth is that many people dislike the
fact that one must use many more keys than on the pc, however we are seeing
that Apple is addressing this with each subsequent release as well.  For
example the quick nav and the magic track pad gestures for Voice over.  I
guess what I am attempting to say is  that I feel the answer is not a cut
and dried one.  There are positives and negatives on both sides of the
issue.The bottom line is that looking at a pure productivity stand point
the pc would have it hands down right now.  This will continue to change
with Apples continued commitment to voice over and the adaptive technology
that it continues to incorporate in the OS.  I hope that this helps.

Sincerely,

Scott

 

On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:





Carolyn,

 

thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do
not wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.

 

but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger
navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its
Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.

 

Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user
can use their Mac in this way.

 

All I want is that level playing field.

 

Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what
the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.

 

Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that
Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing,
sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this
conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.

 

its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other
accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or
wrongly, and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one
persons needs on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the
Apple approach to work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on
this list.

 

I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you
can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off.
this helps a lot.

 

Twitter @neilbarnfather

RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Claus,

again, my Toshiba R600 running Windows 7 and with an SSD, is ready to use,
from a cold start, in 17 seconds. this is fully ready, no apps still
loading, JAWS is ready and willing etc.

granted this is with an SSD and a good machine, but it's a point that should
be made. the days when stability of the OS were an issue are really passed
now.

as long as you buy a good manufacturer and don't install all manner of
rubbish software then you shouldn't suffer anymore.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Claus Thøgersen
Sent: 11 October 2010 12:31
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Hi,

On the other hand a stable Windows xP machine is much more common now than 
with Windows98 or even worse Windows95.  Windows 7 seems to be even more 
stable than xp.

Still the  Macs really have a boot time I have never seem matched on a 
Windows system, and is instant ready after login, very much unlike my XP 
machine that uses about 2 extra minutes to load applications. This is only 
tolerable because hybernation works on that pc.

Claus

- Original Message - 
From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...


> Teresa,
>
> as I've pointed out, gone are the days of the blue screen of death on a 
> PC.
> I never have application crashes which bring down the whole machine, 
> haven't
> done so for many years now.
>
> this is purely about navigation with a Mac.
>
>
>
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Teresa Cochran
> Sent: 10 October 2010 18:37
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>
> Hi, Neil,
>
> I'm commenting before I read the other replies, so that I can give you my
> own response to what you've written.
>
> First, you can use QuickNav in Voiceover, which will give you most
> screen-reader commands with two fingers on one hand.
>
> Secondly, in my experience, when one application freezes on the Mac, this
> doesn't take down the entire session and cause a blue screen. It's only
> necessary to force-quit the misbehaving application ancd stay in the
> desktop. I've gone for weeks without restarting the desktop, much less
> restarting the computer. I have never done this on Windows. This, to me, 
> is
> a big plus.
>
> Teresa
>
> -- 
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RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Ricardo,

F6, that be the resolution, instead of tabbing all the time with Windows and
JAWS< let's take your iTunes example.

using iTunes on my PC, as I do, I do the following.

if I'm in the left tree of items, I start typing the name of say
applications, after A P is typed I'm on that section, so now F6, this takes
me instantly to the top of the area defining the view, then one more F6 and
I'm in the list of applications. so that's two keys to get there not endless
tab, tab, tab,

again, all this goes to prove is that I need to learn more about Voice Over
and who knows, with just a little more education I may change my view.

but to say that with windows its endless tabbing, not so, F6, magic.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ricardo Walker
Sent: 11 October 2010 12:59
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Hi Neil,

Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the
physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives
you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just
like on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving
your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes
you slower.  For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item
using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of
iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in
an environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people this
can really clear some communication hurdles.  I thought just like you when I
first made the switch.  "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the
same task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?"  And it annoyed me.  But then I
realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct
relationship to speed and or productivity.  I also didn't like the concept
of interacting with elements.  This is before I completely understood it's
advantages.  Again, I use iTunes as an example.  If you have your IOS device
hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to
your device.  Same with the Mac.  Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and tab.
Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then tab
a whole lot more.  On the Mac,  I could use the iTem chooser to find music
and it takes me right to it.  Lets say for some reason I did want to press
VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser.  Once I've reached music
and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that
contain the information for the button I've selected.  If I don't want to
view them I don't have to.  You don't have this choice on windows.  Your
forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know what your
looking for. 
On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Laura,
> 
> good post, appreciated reading it...
> 
> can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
> screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.
> 
> how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
> meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
> represents the screen?
> 
> thanks.
> 
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
> 
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
> 
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M
> Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50
> To: MacVisionaries
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
> 
> Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent
> with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no
> problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that
> it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in
> the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with
> one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently.
> I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website,
> for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading.
> I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also
> improved things, but those changes are no more extensive than anything
> I did with the JAWS keyboard manager.
> 
> There are three things that really make it quicker for me: the
> trackpad, the item chooser, and--pretty surprisingly, given that I
> hated it at the start--the need for interaction.
> 
> With the tr

RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

David,

without a doubt, the item chooser is amazing, I do love it a lot.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David Taylor
Sent: 11 October 2010 13:09
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Further to this, in OS X you use the tab key to get to important items more
quickly, while you have the option of the VO keys to pass everything. I use
the item chooser a lot though. I had been wanting something similar in
windows for a very long time, something that worked in all programs, but
Windows screen readers are nowhere near that level of advancement since they
have been scrabbling to deal with complex new interfaces on a program by
program basis! I love the universality of OS X

Cheers
Dave

On 11 Oct 2010, at 12:58, Ricardo Walker wrote:

Hi Neil,

Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the
physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives
you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just
like on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving
your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes
you slower.  For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item
using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of
iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in
an environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people this
can really clear some communication hurdles.  I thought just like you when I
first made the switch.  "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the
same task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?"  And it annoyed me.  But then I
realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct
relationship to speed and or productivity.  I also didn't like the concept
of interacting with elements.  This is before I completely understood it's
advantages.  Again, I use iTunes as an example.  If you have your IOS device
hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to
your device.  Same with the Mac.  Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and tab.
Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then tab
a whole lot more.  On the Mac,  I could use the iTem chooser to find music
and it takes me right to it.  Lets say for some reason I did want to press
VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser.  Once I've reached music
and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that
contain the information for the button I've selected.  If I don't want to
view them I don't have to.  You don't have this choice on windows.  Your
forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know what your
looking for. 
On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Laura,
> 
> good post, appreciated reading it...
> 
> can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
> screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.
> 
> how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
> meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
> represents the screen?
> 
> thanks.
> 
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
> 
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
> 
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M
> Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50
> To: MacVisionaries
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
> 
> Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent
> with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no
> problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that
> it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in
> the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with
> one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently.
> I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website,
> for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading.
> I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also
> improved things, but those changes are no more extensive than anything
> I did with the JAWS keyboard manager.
> 
> There are three things that really make it quicker for me: the
> trackpad, the item chooser, and--pretty surprisingly, given that I
> hated it at the start--the need for interaction.
> 
> With the trackpad, if I'm on a page or a program I'm familiar with, I
> can instantly get

RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Laura,

indeed, much of what you say makes a lot of sense to me, and frankly, is why
I'm so eager to make the switch.

in terms of iTunes, I think that this is a misconception from years gone by,
in the old days, with JAWS 8 and earlier, it was terrible with iTunes,
leading to developments such as jTunes,etc

however, with JAWS 11 there's no such issue, JAWS quickly and very
efficiently handles iTunes.

using the F6 key I can very quickly jump around it and its stable and
reliable.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M
Sent: 11 October 2010 14:24
To: MacVisionaries
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Ricardo, exactly. iTunes is one of the programs I was thinking about
last night, because the efficiency gains are so pronounced. I also
really like it on webpages like the New York Times, where articles
often have a whole lot of extra links and pictures placed in between
the text. Even with JAWS, there was no keystroke that would
automatically jump through all of that, but it's only a drag of my
finger on the trackpad to bypass it now.

Neil, I think you use an iPhone, and the gestures to operate the
trackpad are almost exactly the same. You can flick between items, or
just touch what you want if you know where it is, and if it's an
actionable item you're touching, you just double tap. The rotor also
works in the same way as it does on the iPhone, so you could navigate
a website using one finger with the trackpad, just as easily as you
could with the arrow keys.

I know you've just been asking about navigation, and I'm definitely
not advocating that you switch if you still feel like VO doesn't cut
it for you in that regard, but one of the other things I really like
about being on a Mac right now is that because of the iPhone, there's
a lot of Voiceover development going on and getting tested even before
Mac updates. I really like the way both technologies are merging;
there's stuff on the iPhone I recognise from the Mac, and I don't
doubt that when 10.7 arrives, some of the new stuff I've seen on the
iPhone will have migrated there, just as it did in 10.6. I don't have
any axe to grind against JAWS--it gave me access I wouldn't have had
for many, many years, but at the moment, VO is the platform that seems
to be doing the innovative stuff. There are, of course, disadvantages
in picking the newer technology (as I mentioned last night, there's
some customisation options I'd really like Voiceover to implement) but
the more I use Voiceover, in all its forms, the more I feel that it's
getting far closer to really putting us on a level playing field.

Ricardo Walker wrote:
> Hi Neil,
>
> Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the
physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives
you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just
like on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving
your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes
you slower.  For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item
using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of
iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in
an environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people this
can really clear some communication hurdles.  I thought just like you when I
first made the switch.  "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the
same task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?"  And it annoyed me.  But then I
realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct
relationship to speed and or productivity.  I also didn't like the concept
of interacting with elements.  This is before I completely understood it's
advantages.  Again, I use iTunes as an example.  If you have your IOS device
hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to
your device.  Same with the Mac.  Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and tab.
Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then tab
a whole lot more.  On the Mac,  I could use the iTem chooser to find music
and it takes me right to it.  Lets say for some reason I did want to press
VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser.  Once I've reached music
and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that
contain the information for the button I've selected.  If I don't want to
view them I don't have to.  You don't have this choice on windows.  Your
forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know what your
looking for.
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
>
> > Laura,
> >
> > good post, apprec

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Eleni Vamvakari]

This morning, I discovered that, in the digest mode, I could just go
to a particular thread, have it displayed on the page and reply
individually to posts.  That makes things much easier.

At any rate, I think that writing up this quick guide is an excellent
idea.  Perhaps, we can work on it as a group effort and have it
published somewhere so that all VoiceOver users could have it as a
resource.  I'm one of those who only uses the core programs and I
could certainly do with making my time on the Mac more productive and
less complicated.

Thanks,
Eleni


Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> Mary,
>
> I suppose this is because I've lived for many years in the sighted PC
> Windows environment, so I knew all the keyboard commands firstly, then
> installed JAWS when eventually I couldn't see the screen using built in
> inversion of colours etc...
>
> so I have never particularly learnt JAWS key commands, more have continued
> to use the existing Windows ones I knew. which work just fine with JAWS.
>
> I think the issue here, and having discussed it with Cara yesterday for an
> hour or so, appears to be that Voice Over's manual pays little to no
> reference to the existing built in commands for OSx...
>
> so therefore I'm learning the more complex VO commands at the get go. now I
> understand that these commands are set to give universal control across any
> installed application, and this approach makes sense. however, if you're
> only ever using Mail, Safari and Pages, then you do not need such diverse
> assurances, as Apple's standard commands will not conflict.
>
> The idea of a second tear of commands for Vo is owing to the assurance that
> many third party applications native keyboard commands won't conflict with
> standard Mac OSx commands, this makes sense, but if you're only using the
> core products isn't necessary to know.
>
> so what it seems to need is a so to speak quick guide to be written, which
> has listed the native commands alongside the VO ones, and really pays
> attention to the quick nav feature etc.
>
> Moving to your point about JAWS and other PC based screen readers doing just
> the same, I cannot answer that question, I've never once read the manual for
> JAWS, I know I believe 4 key commands for JAWS, and using these and the
> arrow keys and the tab key enables me at this time to do everything I do
> with my PC.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
> Sent: 10 October 2010 22:38
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>
>
> Neal, you have a good point about the duplicate voiceover commands. I
> haven't used JAWS in a while, so things may have changed, but there was a
> time when JAWS did the same, taught special JAWS commands where Windows
> keyboard commands already existed. Your reference to sighted people using
> keyboard commands with a Mac and Windows and you wanting to be on equal
> footing with them is interesting. When somebody gives you a osX keyboard
> command, why not just try it? My experience with most sighted people, except
> really good keyboardists like those I use to work with or programmers who
> have been around for a while is that few know any keyboard commands, and
> most are totally dependent on the mouse and are lost without it. The fact
> that keyboard alternatives are poorly if at all documented in mainstream
> help whether for MS or Apple or 3rd party programs does not help. I have
> used Windows for a long time, and I have no idea what you are talking about
> when you say you do one finger navigation, unless you mean using the up and
> down arrows to navigate in a document. Get a keyboard that has a number pad
> and use the numpad commander that has been a part of voiceover for a while.
> There is also the keyboard commander and there are those built in keyboard
> commands some of which you can find and document by looking in the various
> menus.
>
> I agree that one of the areas where Apple's support for voiceover is lacking
> is compared with the documentation that comes with my Windows screen reader.
>
> Not many programs come with thorough manuals, probably because companies
> find that not enough people read them. For those of us who do prefer the
> written word to hours of podcasts or learning by exploration without an
> overview and examples, well, we're more or less out of luck. But I don't see
> a difference there between MS and Apple either. Indeed, when it comes to
> access-related documentation, Apple has it all over MS these days IMHO.
>
> Mary Otten
> motte...@gmail.com
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionar

Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Scott Howell]

Heather,

I use ABBYY Find Reader Express for the Mac. ALthough this is not like the 
Kurzweil product, I believe it offers something that is of equal value unless 
you really need the features of such a program. 
On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:

> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
> have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive technology 
> while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals struggle to keep 
> their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter about the mac for 
> blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc.  I wanted to make the case 
> that the states should not be so geared to window based machines for there 
> blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR solutions for the Mac like 
> we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.  Also I am not sure about the braille 
> translation programs for the macs as we have mega dots or Duxbury for the 
> windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, eclipse reders and for our 
> textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I wanted to know about it.  I am 
> trying to convince our rehab department that they need to show both options 
> to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my letter at the end of the week to 
> are rehab department.  Thank you, Heather
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.

RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Definitely, I think that what is called for, and Cara seemed to agree, is a
quick start guide written by the user for the user, gosh I sound like a
politician.

a few pages long, nothing heavy, just something which gets over the basics.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eleni Vamvakari
Sent: 11 October 2010 15:06
To: MacVisionaries
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

This morning, I discovered that, in the digest mode, I could just go
to a particular thread, have it displayed on the page and reply
individually to posts.  That makes things much easier.

At any rate, I think that writing up this quick guide is an excellent
idea.  Perhaps, we can work on it as a group effort and have it
published somewhere so that all VoiceOver users could have it as a
resource.  I'm one of those who only uses the core programs and I
could certainly do with making my time on the Mac more productive and
less complicated.

Thanks,
Eleni


Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> Mary,
>
> I suppose this is because I've lived for many years in the sighted PC
> Windows environment, so I knew all the keyboard commands firstly, then
> installed JAWS when eventually I couldn't see the screen using built in
> inversion of colours etc...
>
> so I have never particularly learnt JAWS key commands, more have continued
> to use the existing Windows ones I knew. which work just fine with JAWS.
>
> I think the issue here, and having discussed it with Cara yesterday for an
> hour or so, appears to be that Voice Over's manual pays little to no
> reference to the existing built in commands for OSx...
>
> so therefore I'm learning the more complex VO commands at the get go. now
I
> understand that these commands are set to give universal control across
any
> installed application, and this approach makes sense. however, if you're
> only ever using Mail, Safari and Pages, then you do not need such diverse
> assurances, as Apple's standard commands will not conflict.
>
> The idea of a second tear of commands for Vo is owing to the assurance
that
> many third party applications native keyboard commands won't conflict with
> standard Mac OSx commands, this makes sense, but if you're only using the
> core products isn't necessary to know.
>
> so what it seems to need is a so to speak quick guide to be written, which
> has listed the native commands alongside the VO ones, and really pays
> attention to the quick nav feature etc.
>
> Moving to your point about JAWS and other PC based screen readers doing
just
> the same, I cannot answer that question, I've never once read the manual
for
> JAWS, I know I believe 4 key commands for JAWS, and using these and the
> arrow keys and the tab key enables me at this time to do everything I do
> with my PC.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
> Sent: 10 October 2010 22:38
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>
>
> Neal, you have a good point about the duplicate voiceover commands. I
> haven't used JAWS in a while, so things may have changed, but there was a
> time when JAWS did the same, taught special JAWS commands where Windows
> keyboard commands already existed. Your reference to sighted people using
> keyboard commands with a Mac and Windows and you wanting to be on equal
> footing with them is interesting. When somebody gives you a osX keyboard
> command, why not just try it? My experience with most sighted people,
except
> really good keyboardists like those I use to work with or programmers who
> have been around for a while is that few know any keyboard commands, and
> most are totally dependent on the mouse and are lost without it. The fact
> that keyboard alternatives are poorly if at all documented in mainstream
> help whether for MS or Apple or 3rd party programs does not help. I have
> used Windows for a long time, and I have no idea what you are talking
about
> when you say you do one finger navigation, unless you mean using the up
and
> down arrows to navigate in a document. Get a keyboard that has a number
pad
> and use the numpad commander that has been a part of voiceover for a
while.
> There is also the keyboard commander and there are those built in keyboard
> commands some of which you can find and document by looking in the various
> menus.
>
> I agree that one of the areas where Apple's support for voiceover

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[David Taylor]

Yes, I think there must always be a place for this kind of dialogue. I'm only 
two weeks in with my plain old MacBook, not even a pro, but find it far better 
than I expected prior to purchase. I do have Windows 7 on a VM on here as well 
and use it for Kurzweil 1000 and some chat sites that don't have Mac apps yet. 
I'm trying the beta of IE9 so I really can compair the latest with the latest, 
and will no doubt put Firefox on Windows for those times when Webvisum is 
needed. This kind of debate will hopefully teach me new things about both 
systems. They are different and have different pros and cons, but I personally 
much prefer the Mac environment. It just feels friendlier and more intuitive, 
and it is miles faster, though I'm sure Windows would be faster if not on a VM!

Cheers
Dave

On 11 Oct 2010, at 15:03, Scott Ford wrote:

Hi Neal,
That was not what I was attempting to point out.  I am too 
trying to figure things out.  I am constantly reevaluating my technology.  For 
me though, I can operate in both worlds with my Mac book pro on a nice form 
factor.  I would love the opportunity to try out the technology that you 
mentioned.  I am considering a net book in fact.  I am really enjoying this 
dialog, great work Neal.
Sincerely,
Scott
 
 
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Neil Barnfather - TalkNav
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:42 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
 
Scott,
 
I have two PC laptop's, the first is a Toshiba R600, the lightest laptop in the 
World at just 735g, sorry none metric folk, it's not a net book, and has full 
processor and 3Gb of RAM etc.
 
it has a 12in screen and is extraordinarily light, you pick it up and think 
either it's a toy or that they forgot to put the components in it. that's why 
though it holds the records as the lightest laptop in the World.
 
My Sony VAIO big brother is solid, well built and as light in weight as the 
comparative Mac product.
 
but please, again, I do not wish to make this a this is better argument, really 
the point was to educate myself if there was a better way of using just the 
keyboard.
 
thus far I have found out two key things, firstly how to use Safari better with 
the tab key, in effect making it auto enter certain types of forms...
 
also I have found that I can use standard OSx keyboard commands which are 
shorter than the VO comparative.
 
these two things alone make my thinking more level, which was the purpose of 
asking the question.
 
I'm not yet of the opinion that its more efficient, but I'm working on it.
 
Twitter @neilbarnfather
 
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
 
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
 
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Ford
Sent: 11 October 2010 14:12
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
 
Hi Neil,
I am not sure where I got John from.  I do have to say this for 
the Mac.  I use a Mac book pro for my day to day  work.  This includes working 
with clients in both Mac osx and Windows.  I have found that the power and 
performance in the Mac book pro to be nothing short  of great.  I also have a 
very nice dell that is equal to the Mac in just about every way.  Where it 
really falls short is in the form factor.  My dell is just about twice as thick 
and half again as heavy.  I can pop the Mac and it’s power supply in my book 
bag and it is much thinner than any book that I need to carry.  This may be a 
minor thing to most, however I also carry my BN apex around as well.  These 
devices really add up to a lot of weight quickly.  Just a bit more food for 
thought.
Sincerely,
Scott
 
 
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Neil Barnfather - TalkNav
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:27 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
 
Scott,
 
that's pretty much my beef, the issue for me comes down to productivity, that 
alone, not price, not other, just productivity.
 
I'm still hopeful, and wish to become a switcher, not for peer pressure, not 
for anything other than stability of the screen reader... having said this, you 
never know, the folks at FS may one day decide to do the right thing and 
completely re-write JAWS from the ground up, making it more stable.
 
Twitter @neilbarnfather
 
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
 
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
 
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Ford
Sent: 10 October 2010 21:35
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Sub

Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Isaac Obie]

Hello Heather,
It's just like years ago I asked the state for Window Eyes. I was told, "We 
only have Jaws". So it was Jaws or nothing!
So I got in the habit of buying my own equipment. But some states are giving 
Macs nowadays. I know one list member who received a Macbook pro and is 
extremely happy with it. So I guess sometimes it's where you're at the time. 
this person is seeking a job. So the Mac was to help in that endeavor.
I have a mac mini which I bought. Now I am trying to help a friend find a Mac. 
The states will do as they please. I've come to accept that.
Isaac
  - Original Message - 
  From: heather kd5cbl 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:41 AM
  Subject: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information


  I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive technology 
while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals struggle to keep 
their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter about the mac for 
blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc.  I wanted to make the case 
that the states should not be so geared to window based machines for there 
blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR solutions for the Mac like 
we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.  Also I am not sure about the braille 
translation programs for the macs as we have mega dots or Duxbury for the 
windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, eclipse reders and for our 
textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I wanted to know about it.  I am 
trying to convince our rehab department that they need to show both options to 
their consumers.  I plan on submitting my letter at the end of the week to are 
rehab department.  Thank you, Heather 

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Ricardo Walker]

Correct,

That is why I specifically used the example of navigating the settings on ones 
IOS device.  I didn't use the other options found in the source view because 
the navigations is comparable on windows and Macs when navigating them.  
Windows users press F6 twice and mac users press VO command T once.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:49 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Ricardo,
> 
> F6, that be the resolution, instead of tabbing all the time with Windows and
> JAWS< let's take your iTunes example.
> 
> using iTunes on my PC, as I do, I do the following.
> 
> if I'm in the left tree of items, I start typing the name of say
> applications, after A P is typed I'm on that section, so now F6, this takes
> me instantly to the top of the area defining the view, then one more F6 and
> I'm in the list of applications. so that's two keys to get there not endless
> tab, tab, tab,
> 
> again, all this goes to prove is that I need to learn more about Voice Over
> and who knows, with just a little more education I may change my view.
> 
> but to say that with windows its endless tabbing, not so, F6, magic.
> 
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
> 
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
> 
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ricardo Walker
> Sent: 11 October 2010 12:59
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
> 
> Hi Neil,
> 
> Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the
> physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives
> you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just
> like on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving
> your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes
> you slower.  For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item
> using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of
> iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in
> an environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people this
> can really clear some communication hurdles.  I thought just like you when I
> first made the switch.  "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the
> same task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?"  And it annoyed me.  But then I
> realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct
> relationship to speed and or productivity.  I also didn't like the concept
> of interacting with elements.  This is before I completely understood it's
> advantages.  Again, I use iTunes as an example.  If you have your IOS device
> hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to
> your device.  Same with the Mac.  Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and tab.
> Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then tab
> a whole lot more.  On the Mac,  I could use the iTem chooser to find music
> and it takes me right to it.  Lets say for some reason I did want to press
> VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser.  Once I've reached music
> and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that
> contain the information for the button I've selected.  If I don't want to
> view them I don't have to.  You don't have this choice on windows.  Your
> forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know what your
> looking for. 
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> 
>> Laura,
>> 
>> good post, appreciated reading it...
>> 
>> can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
>> screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.
>> 
>> how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
>> meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
>> represents the screen?
>> 
>> thanks.
>> 
>> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>> 
>> Neil Barnfather
>> Talks List Administrator
>> 
>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M
>> Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50
>> To: MacVisionaries
>> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>> 
>> Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent
>> with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no
>> problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that
>> it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in
>> the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with
>> one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more con

Quick mod note - responding to digest posts -was- Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Cara Quinn]

  Hi Tiffany and list! :)

Tiffany, thanks for asking about replying to digest posts.

On replying to posts; you're really welcome to respond to a post any way you'd 
like as long as it keeps it's context. I.E. if you can include enough of the 
original message you're responding to so that your comments make sense, then by 
all means, have at it. :)

We would ask that people just be considerate of really large messages if you 
can, and attempt to keep your notes smaller with just the bits of the original 
note that you'd like to respond to (as I've done below this note) but other 
than that, it's all you. :)

Just remember that there are some on the list who pay for bandwidth they use, 
so smaller notes actually do matter. :)

Anyway, tiffany, thanks for such a thoughtful response and have an awesome day!…

Smiles,

Cara :)
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Oct 10, 2010, at 8:26 PM, Tiffany D wrote:

Well, I signed into this account and forgot to sign back into my
normal e-mail address so saw this message and figured I would respond.
Btw, if I see something in digest mode and want to respond to it, am
I allowed to make a separate e-mail or can I snip parts of the e-mail
when responding so as not to create clutter?  I don't mean
technically.  I mean according to the rules of this list.

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Re: mac verses pc

[Scott Granados]

Just run fusion and call it done, run windows and OSX on the same device.

That's what I'm doing and love it.

On Oct 10, 2010, at 6:31 PM, heather kd5cbl wrote:

> I have taken to using both computers right now.  I have a mac laptop and a 
> windows desktop.  Grant it I use my windows desktop more but as I learn 
> voiceover, I hope to move between both systems equally.  It is not about 
> which is better for it is a matter of perspective of the individual.  I like 
> jaws for what it does, making my windows pc blind friendly.  But, I cant 
> access jaws in say a public library, the computer lab at school or my sighted 
> cousin's house but I can access a mac in all those locations using voiceover. 
> Provided there computer is not ten years old!  But I like my windows pc for 
> the use of Kurzweil1000, Duxbury which I use with my braille printer and the 
> victor stream to read books.  I hope that in the future, kurzweil1000 will 
> have a mac equivalent like kurzweil 3000.  Now that I am familiar with the 
> mac, I can walk in a library, school or any other public places in get on a 
> mac to do what I need to do without sighted help.  I know someone might put 
> forth system access to go for windows users?  Just one problem, if that 
> computer is not connected to the internet, how can you access system access?  
> If you are at a log in screen, how would you know with out speech to tell 
> you?  I am not defending one over the other, it is a matter of what one's 
> needs are at the time.  I believe one should be familiar with both, not that 
> they need to have both!  Heather
> 
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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[John Sanfilippo]

Hi Neil and list,

someone wished for a brief tutorial from a user's perspective on how best to 
use  Snow Leopard and Voiceover. Well, I have been struggling to do that since 
getting my mac back in November of 2008 . I called it something like 
novice log. Unfortunately it is anything but brief.

Great discussion. I need help navigating the web as I have not quite habituated 
or assimilated that yet.

Ciao for now,
js

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Re: VMWare Fusion and JFW

[Scott Ford]

The ILM will work great as long as you do not make any memory or what the ILM 
construes as a hardware change, memory, hard drive, or vidio.  This is why I 
use my dongle.  
Later,
Scott 

On Oct 9, 2010, at 2:27 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:

> No problems of that here, I can install any Fusion I like and jaws does 
> nothing.  I also have a dongle too but I prefer the ILM so as my ports are 
> not taken up.
> 
> On 9 Oct 2010, at 18:29, Pierre Heim wrote:
> 
>> Hi, 
>> 
>> I'm also using a dongle version of Jaws (V10/Win XP), at home with Fusion 
>> and at work the VMWare player on Linux. With the ILM version I had the 
>> problem that every time I have changed the settings of the VM or installed a 
>> new version of VMWare fusion or the player Jaws wanted a new registration. 
>> This was a great pain... No problems now with the dongle...
>> 
>> Have a nice WE,
>> Pierre
>> 
>> Am 09.10.2010 um 01:51 schrieb Scott Ford:
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> I have a dongle and that works just fine.
>>> Scott
>>> 
>>> On Oct 8, 2010, at 2:04 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>>> 
 I can't see why you can't put your jaws dongle in a USB port when in 
 windows if you have fusion installed along with your operating system and 
 jaws?
 On 8 Oct 2010, at 18:30, Michael Busboom wrote:
 
> I would like to thank those who answered my question about JFW and 
> Fusion.  I will pass along your answers.  I suppose that my friend will 
> know how to create a JFW key?
> 
> I don't know if he uses a dongle.
> 
> All of you, thank you!
> 
> Mike
> On 7,Oct,2010, at 10:45 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
> 
>> I'm a fusion and jfw user and it works very well.  Didn't have to do 
>> anything special other than register the normal way over the internet.  
>> I am an ILM user though not a dongle user so that may be different.
>> 
>> Hope that helps.
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 7, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Michael Busboom wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi.
>>> 
>>> I have VMWare Fusion but use Window-Eyes when running Windows.  I am 
>>> attempting to assist a friend who recently purchased a Mac, along with 
>>> VMWare Fusion.  Is it possible to install JFW in a VMWare Fusion 
>>> environment, or does the copy protection mechanism get in the way?
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
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> 
 
 
 
 
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 (E-mail/MSN):
 kawal_gucuko...@sent.com
 
 (Skype ID):
 
 kawalgucukoglu
 
 (Mobile/text):
 
 +447905618396
 
 +447576240421
 
 
 
 
 
 
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>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> VfB ein Leben lang!
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question

[erik burggraaf]

Hi John,  There really is nothing like simply burns for cd's on the mac.  It's 
really excellent.  The only minor problem I have with it is that it hasn't been 
updated in a while.

Best,

Erik Burggraaf
User support consultant,
One on one access technology support and training over the phone or in person,
1-888-255-5194
http://www.erik-burggraaf.com

On 2010-10-10, at 2:38 AM, John D. Lipsey wrote:

> Hi all:
> 
> I want to burn several audio CD's.  What is the best way to go about actually 
> accomplishing this task?  Someone suggested ITunes, but even if this is an 
> option I don't really want to do that.  I don't want to have to import the 
> songs into my ITunes library, burn them, and then have to remove them again 
> later.  I want to just keep everything on my external.
> 
> Also, has anyone successfully performed batch processing with Amadeus?  AS I 
> recall, it wants you to drag and drop files to add to the batch.  Another 
> work around, or step by step instructions on how to accomplish this task 
> would be appreciated.  Though if I can avoid dragging stuff around I'd prefer 
> that.
> 
> Thanks again all for the help.  Soon I plan on asking less and helping more.  
> :)
> 
> -John
> 
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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Kaare Dehard]

When I bought my Macbook pro, I did get some help from ontario's adp program. I 
didn't however get the "maximum contribution" as things like the screen reader 
weren't necessary. I don't do a lot of ocr, but I did like k1000 for windows. I 
think you could make a case for the macs based on ease of upgrade in certain 
environments. I do a bit of networking a tiny bit of sound work, and a lot of 
correspondence, as well as basic word processing. If you are to make a case for 
the inclusion, I think that tayloring it to people who are willing to learn new 
and different things, and who are working with multi-media and the net. 

Yep, you will have to stress that this is different and that the mac products 
do address similar issues in a different way, and no, windows is still great 
for some people but choice is also great.

Personally I don't think we will see an end to adaptive products, as there are 
a valued group of buyers who would not be ready to have the capacity to or be 
willing to learn new stuff. However, they still require service.


On 2010-10-11, at 10:19 AM, Isaac Obie wrote:

> Hello Heather,
> It's just like years ago I asked the state for Window Eyes. I was told, "We 
> only have Jaws". So it was Jaws or nothing!
> So I got in the habit of buying my own equipment. But some states are giving 
> Macs nowadays. I know one list member who received a Macbook pro and is 
> extremely happy with it. So I guess sometimes it's where you're at the time. 
> this person is seeking a job. So the Mac was to help in that endeavor.
> I have a mac mini which I bought. Now I am trying to help a friend find a 
> Mac. The states will do as they please. I've come to accept that.
> Isaac
> - Original Message -
> From: heather kd5cbl
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:41 AM
> Subject: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information
> 
> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
> have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive technology 
> while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals struggle to keep 
> their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter about the mac for 
> blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc.  I wanted to make the case 
> that the states should not be so geared to window based machines for there 
> blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR solutions for the Mac like 
> we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.  Also I am not sure about the braille 
> translation programs for the macs as we have mega dots or Duxbury for the 
> windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, eclipse reders and for our 
> textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I wanted to know about it.  I am 
> trying to convince our rehab department that they need to show both options 
> to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my letter at the end of the week to 
> are rehab department.  Thank you, Heather
> 
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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[David McLean]

The problem is while I'd agree the Mac is a great platform the business world 
still prefers Windows.  So to get a job after school you're really going to 
have to know and understand Windows to function.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:

> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
> have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive technology 
> while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals struggle to keep 
> their equipment up to date. I am trying to write a letter about the mac for 
> blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc.  I wanted to make the case 
> that the states should not be so geared to window based machines for there 
> blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR solutions for the Mac like 
> we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.  Also I am not sure about the braille 
> translation programs for the macs as we have mega dots or Duxbury for the 
> windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, eclipse reders and for our 
> textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I wanted to know about it.  I am 
> trying to convince our rehab department that they need to show both options 
> to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my letter at the end of the week to 
> are rehab department.  Thank you, Heather
> 
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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Eleni Vamvakari]

I personally don't like ITunes on anything.  I prefer the copy and
paste method, which ITunes simply doesn't employ.  I have many folders
with songs named things like Track 01, Track02 etc.  Some were ripped
from cds, some were downloaded from Youtube and some I recorded from
online radio.  So I really can't set up a library with ITunes and it
would only ruin my folders.  Also, many of the Youtube titles are in
Greek, and unless I get a Greek synthesizer for the Mac, they're
unreadable.  This is slightly unrelated, but I find that when I plug a
device like an external hard disk or my Muvo tT100 into the Mac and
then plug it into my XP machine, I get all of these duplicate files.
So instead of having File1 and File2, I now have those plus .file1
and .file2 and the duplicates are all empty.  I then have to spend a
considerable amount of time deleting all of these files.  Is there a
way around this?  Also, is there a Mac-compatible wordprocessor that
can save in standard rtf format?  I find that Text Edit will let me
save and read things in Greek, but when I review those same files with
Windows, they're all scrambled and when I put them back in the Mac,
they're no longer readable.  Sorry for getting offtopic but figured
that someone could answer.

Thanks,
Eleni



Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> Laura,
>
> indeed, much of what you say makes a lot of sense to me, and frankly, is why
> I'm so eager to make the switch.
>
> in terms of iTunes, I think that this is a misconception from years gone by,
> in the old days, with JAWS 8 and earlier, it was terrible with iTunes,
> leading to developments such as jTunes,etc
>
> however, with JAWS 11 there's no such issue, JAWS quickly and very
> efficiently handles iTunes.
>
> using the F6 key I can very quickly jump around it and its stable and
> reliable.
>
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M
> Sent: 11 October 2010 14:24
> To: MacVisionaries
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>
> Ricardo, exactly. iTunes is one of the programs I was thinking about
> last night, because the efficiency gains are so pronounced. I also
> really like it on webpages like the New York Times, where articles
> often have a whole lot of extra links and pictures placed in between
> the text. Even with JAWS, there was no keystroke that would
> automatically jump through all of that, but it's only a drag of my
> finger on the trackpad to bypass it now.
>
> Neil, I think you use an iPhone, and the gestures to operate the
> trackpad are almost exactly the same. You can flick between items, or
> just touch what you want if you know where it is, and if it's an
> actionable item you're touching, you just double tap. The rotor also
> works in the same way as it does on the iPhone, so you could navigate
> a website using one finger with the trackpad, just as easily as you
> could with the arrow keys.
>
> I know you've just been asking about navigation, and I'm definitely
> not advocating that you switch if you still feel like VO doesn't cut
> it for you in that regard, but one of the other things I really like
> about being on a Mac right now is that because of the iPhone, there's
> a lot of Voiceover development going on and getting tested even before
> Mac updates. I really like the way both technologies are merging;
> there's stuff on the iPhone I recognise from the Mac, and I don't
> doubt that when 10.7 arrives, some of the new stuff I've seen on the
> iPhone will have migrated there, just as it did in 10.6. I don't have
> any axe to grind against JAWS--it gave me access I wouldn't have had
> for many, many years, but at the moment, VO is the platform that seems
> to be doing the innovative stuff. There are, of course, disadvantages
> in picking the newer technology (as I mentioned last night, there's
> some customisation options I'd really like Voiceover to implement) but
> the more I use Voiceover, in all its forms, the more I feel that it's
> getting far closer to really putting us on a level playing field.
>
> Ricardo Walker wrote:
> > Hi Neil,
> >
> > Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the
> physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives
> you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just
> like on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving
> your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes
> you slower.  For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item
> using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of
> iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in
> an e

Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question

[ISAAC OBIE]

Erik,
Where might I find Simply Burn? Thanks.
Isaac
- Original Message - 
From: "erik burggraaf" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question


Hi John,  There really is nothing like simply burns for cd's on the mac. 
It's really excellent.  The only minor problem I have with it is that it 
hasn't been updated in a while.


Best,

Erik Burggraaf
User support consultant,
One on one access technology support and training over the phone or in 
person,

1-888-255-5194
http://www.erik-burggraaf.com

On 2010-10-10, at 2:38 AM, John D. Lipsey wrote:


Hi all:

I want to burn several audio CD's.  What is the best way to go about 
actually accomplishing this task?  Someone suggested ITunes, but even if 
this is an option I don't really want to do that.  I don't want to have 
to import the songs into my ITunes library, burn them, and then have to 
remove them again later.  I want to just keep everything on my external.


Also, has anyone successfully performed batch processing with Amadeus? 
AS I recall, it wants you to drag and drop files to add to the batch. 
Another work around, or step by step instructions on how to accomplish 
this task would be appreciated.  Though if I can avoid dragging stuff 
around I'd prefer that.


Thanks again all for the help.  Soon I plan on asking less and helping 
more.  :)


-John

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Re: Quick mod note - responding to digest posts -was- Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Eleni Vamvakari]

Thanks for clearing that up.  As I said in my other post, I found that
I can actually go to the topics individually in the digest mode and
that makes things much easier.  It also enables me to use the e-mail
with the name that I wish to make legal, that being Eleni.  I've never
heard of a user paying for band width and thought this was only for
people running websites.  Interesting.

Thanks,
Eleni

Cara Quinn wrote:
> Hi Tiffany and list! :)
>
> Tiffany, thanks for asking about replying to digest posts.
>
> On replying to posts; you're really welcome to respond to a post any way 
> you'd like as long as it keeps it's context. I.E. if you can include enough 
> of the original message you're responding to so that your comments make 
> sense, then by all means, have at it. :)
>
> We would ask that people just be considerate of really large messages if you 
> can, and attempt to keep your notes smaller with just the bits of the 
> original note that you'd like to respond to (as I've done below this note) 
> but other than that, it's all you. :)
>
> Just remember that there are some on the list who pay for bandwidth they use, 
> so smaller notes actually do matter. :)
>
> Anyway, tiffany, thanks for such a thoughtful response and have an awesome 
> day!…
>
> Smiles,
>
> Cara :)
> ---
> View my Online Portfolio at:
>
> http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn
>
> Follow me on Twitter!
>
> https://twitter.com/ModelCara
>

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kurzweil1000

[heather kd5cbl]

Hello, just wondering if anyone happens to know why k3000 has a mac partner but 
k1000 does not?  It does not make sense, they are made by the same company!  
Heather 

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Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question

[Colin M]

Hi there!

http://simplyburns.berlios.de/
On 11 Oct 2010, at 19:16, ISAAC OBIE wrote:

> Erik,
> Where might I find Simply Burn? Thanks.
> Isaac
> - Original Message - From: "erik burggraaf" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 12:41 PM
> Subject: Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question
> 
> 
>> Hi John,  There really is nothing like simply burns for cd's on the mac. 
>> It's really excellent.  The only minor problem I have with it is that it 
>> hasn't been updated in a while.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Erik Burggraaf
>> User support consultant,
>> One on one access technology support and training over the phone or in 
>> person,
>> 1-888-255-5194
>> http://www.erik-burggraaf.com
>> 
>> On 2010-10-10, at 2:38 AM, John D. Lipsey wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all:
>>> 
>>> I want to burn several audio CD's.  What is the best way to go about 
>>> actually accomplishing this task?  Someone suggested ITunes, but even if 
>>> this is an option I don't really want to do that.  I don't want to have to 
>>> import the songs into my ITunes library, burn them, and then have to remove 
>>> them again later.  I want to just keep everything on my external.
>>> 
>>> Also, has anyone successfully performed batch processing with Amadeus? AS I 
>>> recall, it wants you to drag and drop files to add to the batch. Another 
>>> work around, or step by step instructions on how to accomplish this task 
>>> would be appreciated.  Though if I can avoid dragging stuff around I'd 
>>> prefer that.
>>> 
>>> Thanks again all for the help.  Soon I plan on asking less and helping 
>>> more.  :)
>>> 
>>> -John
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
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>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> 
>> 
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Re: mac verses pc

[Sarah Alawami]

Hello. You do need to make sure that the flash driveis excepted to run, that is 
choose the action. if youuse narator on the school comp you can dothat but if 
not you will need to borrow someeyes.

On Oct 10, 2010, at 20:32, Tiffany D  wrote:

> Hi Heather,
> 
> You can't access JFW in those places, but you can put NVDA (a free and
> powerful screenreader) on a compact flash card or thumb drive etc. and
> simply run it off of there without even having to install it on the
> library's, your school's or your cousin's computer, and you can do
> this whether or not said computer is connected to the net.  I'm not
> sure if there is a Mac equivalent for Kurzweil 1000, but there is a
> free and decent braille translation program called Louis, which works
> with a large variety of braille embossers.  It's worth checking out if
> you can.
> 
> All the best,
> Eleni
> 
> On 10/10/2010, heather kd5cbl  wrote:
>> I have taken to using both computers right now.  I have a mac laptop and a
>> windows desktop.  Grant it I use my windows desktop more but as I learn
>> voiceover, I hope to move between both systems equally.  It is not about
>> which is better for it is a matter of perspective of the individual.  I like
>> jaws for what it does, making my windows pc blind friendly.  But, I cant
>> access jaws in say a public library, the computer lab at school or my
>> sighted cousin's house but I can access a mac in all those locations using
>> voiceover. Provided there computer is not ten years old!  But I like my
>> windows pc for the use of Kurzweil1000, Duxbury which I use with my braille
>> printer and the victor stream to read books.  I hope that in the future,
>> kurzweil1000 will have a mac equivalent like kurzweil 3000.  Now that I am
>> familiar with the mac, I can walk in a library, school or any other public
>> places in get on a mac to do what I need to do without sighted help.  I know
>> someone might put forth system access to go for windows users?  Just one
>> problem, if that computer is not connected to the internet, how can you
>> access system access?  If you are at a log in screen, how would you know
>> with out speech to tell you?  I am not defending one over the other, it is a
>> matter of what one's needs are at the time.  I believe one should be
>> familiar with both, not that they need to have both!  Heather
>> 
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>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question

[Sarah Alawami]

I coxuld not get a cd to rip though. . it only ripped   a image file and i 
really can't do much with that. l...@!

S
On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:41 AM, erik burggraaf wrote:

> Hi John,  There really is nothing like simply burns for cd's on the mac.  
> It's really excellent.  The only minor problem I have with it is that it 
> hasn't been updated in a while.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Erik Burggraaf
> User support consultant,
> One on one access technology support and training over the phone or in person,
> 1-888-255-5194
> http://www.erik-burggraaf.com
> 
> On 2010-10-10, at 2:38 AM, John D. Lipsey wrote:
> 
>> Hi all:
>> 
>> I want to burn several audio CD's.  What is the best way to go about 
>> actually accomplishing this task?  Someone suggested ITunes, but even if 
>> this is an option I don't really want to do that.  I don't want to have to 
>> import the songs into my ITunes library, burn them, and then have to remove 
>> them again later.  I want to just keep everything on my external.
>> 
>> Also, has anyone successfully performed batch processing with Amadeus?  AS I 
>> recall, it wants you to drag and drop files to add to the batch.  Another 
>> work around, or step by step instructions on how to accomplish this task 
>> would be appreciated.  Though if I can avoid dragging stuff around I'd 
>> prefer that.
>> 
>> Thanks again all for the help.  Soon I plan on asking less and helping more. 
>>  :)
>> 
>> -John
>> 
>> -- 
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>> 
> 
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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Sarai Bucciarelli]

Hi:
Good for you! I'm a Mac user as well, and I too feel rehab agencies need to 
present both options, and let the consumer make up their own mind. The only 
program I'd ever need to use on the Windows side of things is Kurzweil.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:

> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
> have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive technology 
> while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals struggle to keep 
> their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter about the mac for 
> blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc.  I wanted to make the case 
> that the states should not be so geared to window based machines for there 
> blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR solutions for the Mac like 
> we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.  Also I am not sure about the braille 
> translation programs for the macs as we have mega dots or Duxbury for the 
> windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, eclipse reders and for our 
> textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I wanted to know about it.  I am 
> trying to convince our rehab department that they need to show both options 
> to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my letter at the end of the week to 
> are rehab department.  Thank you, Heather
> 
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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Sarai Bucciarelli]

When you buy a Mac, you can purchase training at your local apple store for 
$100 for a year's worth of training. This has been very helpful..
On Oct 11, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Kaare Dehard wrote:

> When I bought my Macbook pro, I did get some help from ontario's adp program. 
> I didn't however get the "maximum contribution" as things like the screen 
> reader weren't necessary. I don't do a lot of ocr, but I did like k1000 for 
> windows. I think you could make a case for the macs based on ease of upgrade 
> in certain environments. I do a bit of networking a tiny bit of sound work, 
> and a lot of correspondence, as well as basic word processing. If you are to 
> make a case for the inclusion, I think that tayloring it to people who are 
> willing to learn new and different things, and who are working with 
> multi-media and the net. 
> 
> Yep, you will have to stress that this is different and that the mac products 
> do address similar issues in a different way, and no, windows is still great 
> for some people but choice is also great.
> 
> Personally I don't think we will see an end to adaptive products, as there 
> are a valued group of buyers who would not be ready to have the capacity to 
> or be willing to learn new stuff. However, they still require service.
> 
> 
> On 2010-10-11, at 10:19 AM, Isaac Obie wrote:
> 
>> Hello Heather,
>> It's just like years ago I asked the state for Window Eyes. I was told, "We 
>> only have Jaws". So it was Jaws or nothing!
>> So I got in the habit of buying my own equipment. But some states are giving 
>> Macs nowadays. I know one list member who received a Macbook pro and is 
>> extremely happy with it. So I guess sometimes it's where you're at the time. 
>> this person is seeking a job. So the Mac was to help in that endeavor.
>> I have a mac mini which I bought. Now I am trying to help a friend find a 
>> Mac. The states will do as they please. I've come to accept that.
>> Isaac
>> - Original Message -
>> From: heather kd5cbl
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:41 AM
>> Subject: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information
>> 
>> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
>> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
>> have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive 
>> technology while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals 
>> struggle to keep their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter 
>> about the mac for blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc.  I wanted 
>> to make the case that the states should not be so geared to window based 
>> machines for there blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR 
>> solutions for the Mac like we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.  Also I am not 
>> sure about the braille translation programs for the macs as we have mega 
>> dots or Duxbury for the windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, 
>> eclipse reders and for our textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I 
>> wanted to know about it.  I am trying to convince our rehab department that 
>> they need to show both options to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my 
>> letter at the end of the week to are rehab department.  Thank you, Heather
>> 
>> -- 
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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[EWOUD]

it should better be a debate.
there is No reason why windows would be favoured above apple.
Apple has the possibilaty to  run windows on its machine, therefor its a 
great alternative.
windows cannot do that, and the price windows pc with screanreader is also 
no good, so Apple has to be mentioned when it comes to choices!

Ewoud

- Original Message - 
From: "Sarai Bucciarelli" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information


Hi:
Good for you! I'm a Mac user as well, and I too feel rehab agencies need to 
present both options, and let the consumer make up their own mind. The only 
program I'd ever need to use on the Windows side of things is Kurzweil.

On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:

I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our 
states have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive 
technology while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals 
struggle to keep their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a 
letter about the mac for blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc. 
I wanted to make the case that the states should not be so geared to 
window based machines for there blind consumers.  I just don't no enough 
about OCR solutions for the Mac like we have Kurzweil1000 for windows. 
Also I am not sure about the braille translation programs for the macs as 
we have mega dots or Duxbury for the windows computers.  Also, we use 
victor streams, eclipse reders and for our textbooks so if there is a Mac 
equivalent, I wanted to know about it.  I am trying to convince our rehab 
department that they need to show both options to their consumers.  I plan 
on submitting my letter at the end of the week to are rehab department. 
Thank you, Heather


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Re: kurzweil1000

[Mary Otten]

>From the marketing point of view, the absence of a k1000 makes sense. They 
>need to make money on it. the parent company doesn't think the math pencils 
>out. You might also note that the k3000 for the Mac has not been updated in 
>some time. It is not on par with the Windows version. Again, it has to do with 
>what the parent company thinks will make them money. As long time K1000 user, 
>I would love it if they'd do a Mac version. It wouldn't have to be self 
>voicing. It could just be vo-compatible and thereby have instant braille 
>support, something the Windows app still does not have unless you use a screen 
>reader's braille support. But k1000 is a small fish in the pond of the company 
>that bought KESI some while back. and so it goes.



Mary

Mary Otten
motte...@gmail.com


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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Eleni Vamvakari]

Actually, yes.  Windows can do that.  It just takes tweeking and
technical knowhow.  However, I hear the results aren't always as good
as using a native Mac.

EWOUD wrote:
> it should better be a debate.
> there is No reason why windows would be favoured above apple.
> Apple has the possibilaty to  run windows on its machine, therefor its a
> great alternative.
> windows cannot do that, and the price windows pc with screanreader is also
> no good, so Apple has to be mentioned when it comes to choices!
> Ewoud
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Sarai Bucciarelli" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 PM
> Subject: Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information
>
>
> Hi:
> Good for you! I'm a Mac user as well, and I too feel rehab agencies need to
> present both options, and let the consumer make up their own mind. The only
> program I'd ever need to use on the Windows side of things is Kurzweil.
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
>
> > I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are
> > favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our
> > states have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive
> > technology while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals
> > struggle to keep their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a
> > letter about the mac for blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc.
> > I wanted to make the case that the states should not be so geared to
> > window based machines for there blind consumers.  I just don't no enough
> > about OCR solutions for the Mac like we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.
> > Also I am not sure about the braille translation programs for the macs as
> > we have mega dots or Duxbury for the windows computers.  Also, we use
> > victor streams, eclipse reders and for our textbooks so if there is a Mac
> > equivalent, I wanted to know about it.  I am trying to convince our rehab
> > department that they need to show both options to their consumers.  I plan
> > on submitting my letter at the end of the week to are rehab department.
> > Thank you, Heather
> >
> > --
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debate

[EWOUD]

add that windows goes as the wind on a mac and everyone can have fusion, my 
choise would be made.
For once and all, microsoft does Not provide a tool as voice-over, could or 
should have done that years before! Apple does, so people who wanne live and 
work independend, should also be adviced to take a look at Apple.
and instituuts, should tag apple like the vctor stream, jaws and other 
things that come to heavy priced on the market.


Ewoud

- Original Message - 
From: "Eleni Vamvakari" 

To: "MacVisionaries" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:21 AM
Subject: Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information



Actually, yes.  Windows can do that.  It just takes tweeking and
technical knowhow.  However, I hear the results aren't always as good
as using a native Mac.

EWOUD wrote:

it should better be a debate.
there is No reason why windows would be favoured above apple.
Apple has the possibilaty to  run windows on its machine, therefor its a
great alternative.
windows cannot do that, and the price windows pc with screanreader is 
also

no good, so Apple has to be mentioned when it comes to choices!
Ewoud

- Original Message -
From: "Sarai Bucciarelli" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information


Hi:
Good for you! I'm a Mac user as well, and I too feel rehab agencies need 
to
present both options, and let the consumer make up their own mind. The 
only

program I'd ever need to use on the Windows side of things is Kurzweil.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:

> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are
> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our
> states have all the money to give there blind consumers all this 
> adaptive

> technology while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals
> struggle to keep their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a
> letter about the mac for blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows 
> pc.

> I wanted to make the case that the states should not be so geared to
> window based machines for there blind consumers.  I just don't no 
> enough

> about OCR solutions for the Mac like we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.
> Also I am not sure about the braille translation programs for the macs 
> as

> we have mega dots or Duxbury for the windows computers.  Also, we use
> victor streams, eclipse reders and for our textbooks so if there is a 
> Mac
> equivalent, I wanted to know about it.  I am trying to convince our 
> rehab
> department that they need to show both options to their consumers.  I 
> plan

> on submitting my letter at the end of the week to are rehab department.
> Thank you, Heather
>
> --
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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Kevin Mattingly]

I'm a Technology manager and the bottom line is that while Apple has a great 
toolset and can be adapted for most business uses, the windows suite of 
programs is more widely in business today. I know we had a pilot using the Mac 
laptop but we used the Microsoft Office tools for presentation, E-mail, Word 
Processing, Spreadsheets and project planning. You can buy these programs that 
run on a Mac but they're not accessible yet. I expect the gap to shrink more 
and more over the next few years but blind folks need to be able to use the 
tools that are being used by their fellow workers. 

I think you should learn to work with both windows and Mac machines to give you 
the best chance to grow. It wouldn't hurt to know more about linux as well. The 
more experience we have the better our opportunities to contribute.

Kev
On Oct 11, 2010, at 5:44 PM, EWOUD wrote:

> it should better be a debate.
> there is No reason why windows would be favoured above apple.
> Apple has the possibilaty to  run windows on its machine, therefor its a 
> great alternative.
> windows cannot do that, and the price windows pc with screanreader is also no 
> good, so Apple has to be mentioned when it comes to choices!
> Ewoud
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Sarai Bucciarelli" 
> 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 PM
> Subject: Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information
> 
> 
> Hi:
> Good for you! I'm a Mac user as well, and I too feel rehab agencies need to 
> present both options, and let the consumer make up their own mind. The only 
> program I'd ever need to use on the Windows side of things is Kurzweil.
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
> 
>> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
>> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
>> have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive 
>> technology while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals 
>> struggle to keep their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter 
>> about the mac for blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc. I wanted 
>> to make the case that the states should not be so geared to window based 
>> machines for there blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR 
>> solutions for the Mac like we have Kurzweil1000 for windows. Also I am not 
>> sure about the braille translation programs for the macs as we have mega 
>> dots or Duxbury for the windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, 
>> eclipse reders and for our textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I 
>> wanted to know about it.  I am trying to convince our rehab department that 
>> they need to show both options to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my 
>> letter at the end of the week to are rehab department. Thank you, Heather
>> 
>> -- 
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voiceover guide

[heather kd5cbl]

Hello, I received a response from apple accessibility about the voiceover guide 
in BRF format.  For those who were having problems with the file, they have 
fixed it now so the file works!  I tried it today and it worked just fine.  
Heather 

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quick guide

[Carolyn Haas]

Hi Everyone:
I really like this idea of collaborating on a quickguide based on Mac OSX, that 
puts together the most proficient way of accomplishing tasks by combining the 
Mac keyboard commands and the best of VO.  I'm not the greatest organizer of 
tasks, but I love to write, and I'd be thrilled to be a part of something like 
that.  

I'm also exploring a set-up or mapping of commands based on the multi-touch 
trackpad gestures that appears to be e
xtremely well put together and workable.  
The vast amount of resources   among us  is pretty exciting.  
Carolyn

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Re: Deleting MobileMe Account

[Linda Adams]

Dave,

Try the following.
To  get rid of it go to the finder  
Press command comma  or VO M and go to Finder preferences
Arrow left to the Tool Bar and interact
Right arrow to the side bar, select it and stop interacting
Arrow right to Idisk and uncheck it
Arrow left to close button

HTH
Linda
On Oct 8, 2010, at 12:42 PM, David Taylor wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Can anybody tell me what I need to do to finally delete this please? I've got 
> as far as selecting a reason for cancellation but can't get the Cancel 
> Account button to activate despite trying vo-space, enter, space and routing 
> the mouse to the button and trying shift-vo-space! I've tried it in Webkit 
> with no better results. Interestingly, I tried in Windows as I thought it 
> might be lack of familiarity with Safari causing me problems, and got less 
> far than on the Mac by a long way! I couldn't even view my account over there!
> 
> Cheers
> Dave
> 
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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Carolyn Haas]

Hi:
I just wanted to add to Sarai's comment that, at least in my case, my Apple 
store people have been incredibly cool about the one to one training.  They've 
set no limit on how many times I come in, and, in fact, they tend to take any 
issues we discover seriously and if they can't address them, they explore them 
or kick them upward.  So, it's become a pretty neat interchange.  I feel very 
lucky to have this help available.  
I also think the idea of putting together a sort of "best-of" quick guide could 
be useful to the one to one training process for voice-over users.

Carolyn
On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Sarai Bucciarelli wrote:

> When you buy a Mac, you can purchase training at your local apple store for 
> $100 for a year's worth of training. This has been very helpful..
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Kaare Dehard wrote:
> 
>> When I bought my Macbook pro, I did get some help from ontario's adp 
>> program. I didn't however get the "maximum contribution" as things like the 
>> screen reader weren't necessary. I don't do a lot of ocr, but I did like 
>> k1000 for windows. I think you could make a case for the macs based on ease 
>> of upgrade in certain environments. I do a bit of networking a tiny bit of 
>> sound work, and a lot of correspondence, as well as basic word processing. 
>> If you are to make a case for the inclusion, I think that tayloring it to 
>> people who are willing to learn new and different things, and who are 
>> working with multi-media and the net. 
>> 
>> Yep, you will have to stress that this is different and that the mac 
>> products do address similar issues in a different way, and no, windows is 
>> still great for some people but choice is also great.
>> 
>> Personally I don't think we will see an end to adaptive products, as there 
>> are a valued group of buyers who would not be ready to have the capacity to 
>> or be willing to learn new stuff. However, they still require service.
>> 
>> 
>> On 2010-10-11, at 10:19 AM, Isaac Obie wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Heather,
>>> It's just like years ago I asked the state for Window Eyes. I was told, "We 
>>> only have Jaws". So it was Jaws or nothing!
>>> So I got in the habit of buying my own equipment. But some states are 
>>> giving Macs nowadays. I know one list member who received a Macbook pro and 
>>> is extremely happy with it. So I guess sometimes it's where you're at the 
>>> time. this person is seeking a job. So the Mac was to help in that endeavor.
>>> I have a mac mini which I bought. Now I am trying to help a friend find a 
>>> Mac. The states will do as they please. I've come to accept that.
>>> Isaac
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: heather kd5cbl
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:41 AM
>>> Subject: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information
>>> 
>>> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
>>> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
>>> have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive 
>>> technology while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals 
>>> struggle to keep their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter 
>>> about the mac for blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc.  I 
>>> wanted to make the case that the states should not be so geared to window 
>>> based machines for there blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR 
>>> solutions for the Mac like we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.  Also I am not 
>>> sure about the braille translation programs for the macs as we have mega 
>>> dots or Duxbury for the windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, 
>>> eclipse reders and for our textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I 
>>> wanted to know about it.  I am trying to convince our rehab department that 
>>> they need to show both options to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my 
>>> letter at the end of the week to are rehab department.  Thank you, Heather
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
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>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at 
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Cara Quinn]

Well Neil you'd better become a Mac / VO convert right quick! -or else! *flicks 
riding crop* lol!

Seriously though; no worries on any of this. :) Perhaps we could take this one 
issue at a time.

if you'd like, as there are a lot of great minds here, perhaps we can go point 
by point on solutions for things you'd like to do.

-Yes, you and I chatted a bit about some possibilities, and perhaps others 
would be willing to chime in with specifics on actual tasks you'd like to 
accomplish and how you might go about it on the Mac.

this would actually be quite beneficial for all of us, as I don't think any one 
of us individually, (except of course Esther) :) has the absolute and complete 
grasp of every single shortcut available to us as Mac users in our respective 
heads. :)

So a little re-hash of all of the cool ways we can go about specific tasks 
could go a long way to giving all of us a bit of a refresher.

-Just my thoughts…

Have a terrific day / evening All!…

Smiles,

Cara :)
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On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:49 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

Ricardo,

F6, that be the resolution, instead of tabbing all the time with Windows and
JAWS< let's take your iTunes example.

using iTunes on my PC, as I do, I do the following.

if I'm in the left tree of items, I start typing the name of say
applications, after A P is typed I'm on that section, so now F6, this takes
me instantly to the top of the area defining the view, then one more F6 and
I'm in the list of applications. so that's two keys to get there not endless
tab, tab, tab,

again, all this goes to prove is that I need to learn more about Voice Over
and who knows, with just a little more education I may change my view.

but to say that with windows its endless tabbing, not so, F6, magic.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ricardo Walker
Sent: 11 October 2010 12:59
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Hi Neil,

Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the
physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives
you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just
like on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving
your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes
you slower.  For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item
using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of
iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in
an environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people this
can really clear some communication hurdles.  I thought just like you when I
first made the switch.  "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the
same task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?"  And it annoyed me.  But then I
realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct
relationship to speed and or productivity.  I also didn't like the concept
of interacting with elements.  This is before I completely understood it's
advantages.  Again, I use iTunes as an example.  If you have your IOS device
hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to
your device.  Same with the Mac.  Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and tab.
Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then tab
a whole lot more.  On the Mac,  I could use the iTem chooser to find music
and it takes me right to it.  Lets say for some reason I did want to press
VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser.  Once I've reached music
and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that
contain the information for the button I've selected.  If I don't want to
view them I don't have to.  You don't have this choice on windows.  Your
forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know what your
looking for. 
On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Laura,
> 
> good post, appreciated reading it...
> 
> can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
> screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.
> 
> how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
> meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
> represents the screen?
> 
> thanks.
> 
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
> 
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
> 
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
> 
> 
>

Fwd: quick guide

[Carolyn Haas]

i:
I received the following request to forward to this group.  We may in fact be 
closer to making something very cool happen.  
Carolyn  

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Alex Jurgensen 
> Date: October 11, 2010 5:48:37 PM MDT
> To: Carolyn Haas 
> Subject: Re: quick guide
> 
> Hi Carolin,
> 
> Can you forward this to the Mac Visionaries list?
> 
> I have a wiki that would be more than thrilled to host this project. It wen 
> down for some time due to server migration, but I would be willing to put it 
> up and host it.
> 
> Regards,
> Alex,
> 
> 
> On 2010-10-11, at 4:34 PM, Carolyn Haas wrote:
> 
>> Hi Everyone:
>> I really like this idea of collaborating on a quickguide based on Mac OSX, 
>> that puts together the most proficient way of accomplishing tasks by 
>> combining the Mac keyboard commands and the best of VO.  I'm not the 
>> greatest organizer of tasks, but I love to write, and I'd be thrilled to be 
>> a part of something like that.  
>> 
>> I'm also exploring a set-up or mapping of commands based on the multi-touch 
>> trackpad gestures that appears to be e
>> xtremely well put together and workable.  
>> The vast amount of resources   among us  is pretty exciting.  
>> Carolyn
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
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> 
> Alex Jurgensen,
> VoiceOver Trainer,
> asquare...@visionmail.uni.cc  
> 
> Visit us on the web at: www.vipbc.org
> 

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Mike Arrigo]

I guess when it comes to productivity, I think they both involve the same 
amount of keystrokes. As screen reader users, whether it's using the mac or 
windows, there's going to be a lot of keystrokes involved, there's simply no 
way around it. However, what I like about voice over is, if I navigate a 
window, and come to a control such as a text box, my system focus is also in 
the same place, I don't have to do any commands to move one cursor to another. 
If you use the numpad commander or quick nav, you can definitely navigate with 
one hand, I think quick nav uses about the same amount of key strokes as 
switching between the jaws and pc cursors.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 2:26 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Scott,
>  
> that's pretty much my beef, the issue for me comes down to productivity, that 
> alone, not price, not other, just productivity.
>  
> I'm still hopeful, and wish to become a switcher, not for peer pressure, not 
> for anything other than stability of the screen reader... having said this, 
> you never know, the folks at FS may one day decide to do the right thing and 
> completely re-write JAWS from the ground up, making it more stable.
>  
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>  
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>  
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
> phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ford
> Sent: 10 October 2010 21:35
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>  
> Hi John,
> I was just mentioning on the list the other day, that I 
> frequently find myself needing to boot into windows on my Mac to complete 
> work because the application does not exist or thedoes not work as well as on 
> the PC.  I truly feel that the Mac software is making leaps and great strides 
> with every new release, however looking at the two platforms critically I 
> feel the Mac is just not quite there.  I am willing to bet that within the 
> next year this will not be the case.  The switchers are growing by the day.  
> The other little option not found on the pc  is the fact that one can boot 
> into windows or run vm ware fusion to access windows.  On their Mac.  I am  
> an Adaptive Technology specialist, every month I am getting more and more 
> requests about the Mac.  The truth is that many people dislike the fact that 
> one must use many more keys than on the pc, however we are seeing that Apple 
> is addressing this with each subsequent release as well.  For example the 
> quick nav and the magic track pad gestures for Voice over.  I guess what I am 
> attempting to say is  that I feel the answer is not a cut and dried one.  
> There are positives and negatives on both sides of the issue.The bottom 
> line is that looking at a pure productivity stand point the pc would have it 
> hands down right now.  This will continue to change with Apples continued 
> commitment to voice over and the adaptive technology that it continues to 
> incorporate in the OS.  I hope that this helps.
> Sincerely,
> Scott
>  
> On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> 
> 
> Carolyn,
>  
> thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do not 
> wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.
>  
> but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger 
> navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its 
> Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.
>  
> Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user 
> can use their Mac in this way.
>  
> All I want is that level playing field.
>  
> Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what 
> the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.
>  
> Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that 
> Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing, 
> sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this 
> conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.
>  
> its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other 
> accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or wrongly, 
> and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one persons needs 
> on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the Apple approach to 
> work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on this list.
>  
> I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you 
> can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off. 
> this helps a lot.
>  
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>  
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>  
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
> phone, PDA and GPS related enq

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Mike Arrigo]

This is one area where I like the way voice over handles things. You never have 
to worry about accidentally typing characters in to a form field, because 
pressing just the letters always types them, and there are different commands 
for navigating elements. And no forms mode to deal with, move to the control 
and start typing. Also, voice over is great at handling pages that change 
dynamicly, I have yet to see a windows screen reader handle this as well as 
voice over does, though system access comes close.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:53 AM, Mary Otten wrote:

> Hi Neil,
> When you use things like h to move among headers, you're using jaws key 
> commands. All those handy one key commands you use with internet explorer are 
> jaws, not Windows commands. And the trade off for those is the necessity of 
> forms mode in Jaws, browse mode in Window Eyes, etc. So enter a form and 
> instead of typing right away, you have to first enter forms mode, which is 
> accomplished with a specific screen reader command, because that mode is not 
> native to the os. Don't get me wrong. I also really like the single key 
> navigation you can accomplish on the web with a windows screen reader. But 
> there are productivity tradeoffs involving forms mode and loading of the 
> virtual buffer. 
> Mary Otten
> motte...@gmail.com
> 
> 
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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Mike Arrigo]

There is also a setting in the keyboard preferences that sets whether tab and 
shift tab move to every control, or just lists and text boxes I think. 
Obviously, most of us will probably want to set this so that the tab key moves 
to all controls.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 7:08 AM, David Taylor wrote:

> Further to this, in OS X you use the tab key to get to important items more 
> quickly, while you have the option of the VO keys to pass everything. I use 
> the item chooser a lot though. I had been wanting something similar in 
> windows for a very long time, something that worked in all programs, but 
> Windows screen readers are nowhere near that level of advancement since they 
> have been scrabbling to deal with complex new interfaces on a program by 
> program basis! I love the universality of OS X
> 
> Cheers
> Dave
> 
> On 11 Oct 2010, at 12:58, Ricardo Walker wrote:
> 
> Hi Neil,
> 
> Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the 
> physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives 
> you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just 
> like on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving 
> your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes you 
> slower.  For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item using JFW 
> I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of iTunes on a 
> Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in an 
> environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people this can 
> really clear some communication hurdles.  I thought just like you when I 
> first made the switch.  "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the same 
> task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?"  And it annoyed me.  But then I 
> realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct 
> relationship to speed and or productivity.  I also didn't like the concept of 
> interacting with elements.  This is before I completely understood it's 
> advantages.  Again, I use iTunes as an example.  If you have your IOS device 
> hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to 
> your device.  Same with the Mac.  Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and tab.  
> Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then tab 
> a whole lot more.  On the Mac,  I could use the iTem chooser to find music 
> and it takes me right to it.  Lets say for some reason I did want to press VO 
> right arrow instead of using the item chooser.  Once I've reached music and 
> selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that contain 
> the information for the button I've selected.  If I don't want to view them I 
> don't have to.  You don't have this choice on windows.  Your forced to pass 
> every element which takes up time when you know what your looking for. 
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> 
>> Laura,
>> 
>> good post, appreciated reading it...
>> 
>> can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
>> screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.
>> 
>> how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
>> meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
>> represents the screen?
>> 
>> thanks.
>> 
>> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>> 
>> Neil Barnfather
>> Talks List Administrator
>> 
>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M
>> Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50
>> To: MacVisionaries
>> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>> 
>> Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent
>> with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no
>> problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that
>> it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in
>> the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with
>> one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently.
>> I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website,
>> for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading.
>> I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also
>> improved things, but those changes are no more extensive than anything
>> I did with the JAWS keyboard manager.
>> 
>> There are three things that really make it quicker for me: the
>> trackpad, the item chooser, and--pretty surprisingly, given that I
>> hated it at the start--the need for interaction.
>> 
>> With the trackpad, if I'm on a page or a program I'm familiar with, I
>> can instantly get to what I want by just touching it, as opposed to
>> tabbing or arr

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Mike Arrigo]

Yes, that's a great feature, it's great for getting around a web page also, I 
often use that instead of the voice over find command.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> David,
> 
> without a doubt, the item chooser is amazing, I do love it a lot.
> 
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
> 
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
> 
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David Taylor
> Sent: 11 October 2010 13:09
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
> 
> Further to this, in OS X you use the tab key to get to important items more
> quickly, while you have the option of the VO keys to pass everything. I use
> the item chooser a lot though. I had been wanting something similar in
> windows for a very long time, something that worked in all programs, but
> Windows screen readers are nowhere near that level of advancement since they
> have been scrabbling to deal with complex new interfaces on a program by
> program basis! I love the universality of OS X
> 
> Cheers
> Dave
> 
> On 11 Oct 2010, at 12:58, Ricardo Walker wrote:
> 
> Hi Neil,
> 
> Correct.  If your in an application or web page and someone gives you the
> physical placement of an item,  you can find it on the track pad which gives
> you the layout similar to what a sighted person sees on the screen.  Just
> like on the iPhone.  This leads me into my comment.  I don't think moving
> your hand from a keyboard to a trackpad to a number pad necessarily makes
> you slower.  For example,  If I'm in iTunes and I want to reach an item
> using JFW I might have to tab 4, 5, maybe 6 times.  If I know the layout of
> iTunes on a Mac, I can just touch that location on my track pad.  If your in
> an environment where you have to work side by side with sighted people this
> can really clear some communication hurdles.  I thought just like you when I
> first made the switch.  "Why do I have to press 4 keys to accomplish the
> same task the only took 1 finger with Jaws?"  And it annoyed me.  But then I
> realized that the number of keys 1 must press doesn't have a direct
> relationship to speed and or productivity.  I also didn't like the concept
> of interacting with elements.  This is before I completely understood it's
> advantages.  Again, I use iTunes as an example.  If you have your IOS device
> hooked up to your windows PC you go to the sources list and arrow down to
> your device.  Same with the Mac.  Then, on Windows, you tab and tab and tab.
> Then when you've reached the button you want like music, you select then tab
> a whole lot more.  On the Mac,  I could use the iTem chooser to find music
> and it takes me right to it.  Lets say for some reason I did want to press
> VO right arrow instead of using the item chooser.  Once I've reached music
> and selected it, I can keep going until I reached the scroll areas that
> contain the information for the button I've selected.  If I don't want to
> view them I don't have to.  You don't have this choice on windows.  Your
> forced to pass every element which takes up time when you know what your
> looking for. 
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:47 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> 
>> Laura,
>> 
>> good post, appreciated reading it...
>> 
>> can I ask, you and others have mentioned simply targeting an area of the
>> screen, such as in your example where you say top right of a page etc.
>> 
>> how is this achieved? using the touch pad presumably but how? are you
>> meaning you drag the mouse up there, or that the touch pad in some way
>> represents the screen?
>> 
>> thanks.
>> 
>> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>> 
>> Neil Barnfather
>> Talks List Administrator
>> 
>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Laura M
>> Sent: 11 October 2010 02:50
>> To: MacVisionaries
>> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>> 
>> Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent
>> with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no
>> problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that
>> it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in
>> the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with
>> one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently.
>> I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website,
>> for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading.
>> I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also
>> improved things, but those ch

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Mike Arrigo]

I can't remember a site that doesn't work well with safari, the one case where 
this happens is with flash, because Adobe refuses to make it accessible on the 
mac. Other than that, the real key is to know how voice over works, once you 
have learned that, getting around on the web with the mac is a breeze.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Scott F,
>  
> no worries at all, I'm enjoying this as it hopefully is going to lead to my 
> successful switch.
>  
> already gearing up to make a call to Mac sales...
>  
> most of the folk who have issues with Voice Over seem to have so with third 
> party apps, none of which I use, and also they take note with Safari in part.
>  
> I only ever really use about 7 or so web-sites, all of which I am responsible 
> for, so heck, if it doesn't work, I'll have it fixed.
>  
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>  
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>  
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
> phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ford
> Sent: 11 October 2010 15:04
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>  
> Hi Neal,
> That was not what I was attempting to point out.  I am too 
> trying to figure things out.  I am constantly reevaluating my technology.  
> For me though, I can operate in both worlds with my Mac book pro on a nice 
> form factor.  I would love the opportunity to try out the technology that you 
> mentioned.  I am considering a net book in fact.  I am really enjoying this 
> dialog, great work Neal.
> Sincerely,
> Scott
>  
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Neil Barnfather - 
> TalkNav
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:42 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>  
> Scott,
>  
> I have two PC laptop's, the first is a Toshiba R600, the lightest laptop in 
> the World at just 735g, sorry none metric folk, it's not a net book, and has 
> full processor and 3Gb of RAM etc.
>  
> it has a 12in screen and is extraordinarily light, you pick it up and think 
> either it's a toy or that they forgot to put the components in it. that's why 
> though it holds the records as the lightest laptop in the World.
>  
> My Sony VAIO big brother is solid, well built and as light in weight as the 
> comparative Mac product.
>  
> but please, again, I do not wish to make this a this is better argument, 
> really the point was to educate myself if there was a better way of using 
> just the keyboard.
>  
> thus far I have found out two key things, firstly how to use Safari better 
> with the tab key, in effect making it auto enter certain types of forms...
>  
> also I have found that I can use standard OSx keyboard commands which are 
> shorter than the VO comparative.
>  
> these two things alone make my thinking more level, which was the purpose of 
> asking the question.
>  
> I'm not yet of the opinion that its more efficient, but I'm working on it.
>  
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>  
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>  
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
> phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ford
> Sent: 11 October 2010 14:12
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>  
> Hi Neil,
> I am not sure where I got John from.  I do have to say this 
> for the Mac.  I use a Mac book pro for my day to day  work.  This includes 
> working with clients in both Mac osx and Windows.  I have found that the 
> power and performance in the Mac book pro to be nothing short  of great.  I 
> also have a very nice dell that is equal to the Mac in just about every way.  
> Where it really falls short is in the form factor.  My dell is just about 
> twice as thick and half again as heavy.  I can pop the Mac and it’s power 
> supply in my book bag and it is much thinner than any book that I need to 
> carry.  This may be a minor thing to most, however I also carry my BN apex 
> around as well.  These devices really add up to a lot of weight quickly.  
> Just a bit more food for thought.
> Sincerely,
> Scott
>  
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Neil Barnfather - 
> TalkNav
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:27 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>  
> Scott,
>  
> that's pretty much my beef, the issue for me comes down to productivity, that 
> alone, not price, not other, just productivity.
>  
> I'm still hopeful, and wish to become a

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Mike Arrigo]

You might check out my pod casts on blind cool tech, I cover this, I'm a fan of 
using operating system commands when possible.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:11 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Scott H,
>  
> smile, I have enjoyed it to, and in part it has made me think that it might 
> be possible to do this, I just need to feel 100% in this.
>  
> and I know that no-one is forcing it on me, or suggesting it will be better.
>  
> what I don't understand is why no-one to date has written their own mini, 
> quick start, guide to VO... one that comments on all the built in OSx 
> commands rather than the VO ones, one that points out how to get the best 
> from VO, quickly and without the growing pains.
>  
> perhaps one day we could chat...? 
>  
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>  
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>  
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
> phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Howell
> Sent: 11 October 2010 15:04
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>  
> Neil,
>  
> I think we do agree all be it from perhaps slightly different perspectives. 
> There is no question that efficiency can be measured and no question that 
> level of comfort and familiarity will impact the level of efficiency. I would 
> agree if you were to base this purely on math, JAWS or perhaps other screen 
> readers may be declared more efficient based only on the number of keys used 
> in initiating a command. However, I am one to always find a way to toss a 
> wrench into the works (because its fun) and if you were to consider that one 
> hand is resting on the keyboard and subsequently on the keys, it would not 
> really require any real movement or extra steps. Now if you can do something 
> productive with the other hand such as answering the phone etc. or exercising 
> your favorite hand gesture (just kidding), then that introduces another 
> thought to be considered. Well hey, this has been a really fascinating topic 
> and what it does provide is an opportunity to examine the various aspects of 
> the user interface and interacting with such.
> THanks for putting the topic out there and I think most everyone contributed 
> in a constructive way and this just further supports the idea that 
> constructive debate is healthy.
>  
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:19 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> 
> 
> Scott,
>  
> fare enough, I have no such empirical data, and as such, you're right, I 
> cannot assert my point.
>  
> my assertion was based on an assumption that having to move your hands 
> between a keyboard and a track pad, verse keeping them exclusively on a 
> keyboard, one might, possibly, conclude that the latter is more efficient.
>  
> Furthermore, I do not see how this could be argued if one solution requires 
> in many instances three key presses, or more, to do what on another solution 
> takes one. isn't this a matter of math? surely this does count as empirical?
>  
> of course, I have since learnt, that aspects of a Mac can be controlled using 
> standard OSx key commands, however, owing to the Voice Over manual not 
> eluding to this fact, I presented my argument on a false bases.
>  
> Now granted, what this also doesn't take into consideration is, how often 
> JAWS may crash, whether or not there are other areas, other than web 
> browsing, e-mail and word processing, where Voice Over uses less key strokes 
> than JAWS, but in general this point has been the guiding principal behind my 
> views and argument.
>  
> perhaps though the question comes down to effectiveness verse efficiency. I'm 
> not for a second suggesting that Mac users aren't affective, I know many such 
> people, all of whom are affective. it's this  issue surrounding efficiency. 
> being honest it's a point that no-one user can answer unless they are fully 
> competent in both technologies, Windows and OSx, fully up to date on the 
> latest software versions, and skilled in the use of both setups.
>  
> Only such a person really could be quizzed on efficiency, and even then, 
> that's one persons level and not the majority.
>  
> You're certainly right though, this is an interesting debate.
>  
> On one point, I'm certainly not suggesting that JAWS is better, no way, not 
> at all, in fact I doubt in most of the ways that count, that it is...
>  
> Regards.
>  
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>  
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>  
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
> phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Howell
> Sent: 11 October 2010 11:17
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigati

Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[heather kd5cbl]

I like my training however, our store is so loud that I cant here the 
voiceover or sometimes the individual at the store!  I wish they had a 
separate area besides in the middle of a noisy store to do one on one! 
Heather 


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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Sarai Bucciarelli]

I love my training at the Apple store. The staff is so awesome. I've learned 
the Mac much faster than if I had to go it alone.
 
Also, tech support is wonderful! Once they hear I'm blind, and use voiceover, 
they are like, okay, well do this this, and this. The call doesn't break down. 
On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:49 PM, Carolyn Haas wrote:

> Hi:
> I just wanted to add to Sarai's comment that, at least in my case, my Apple 
> store people have been incredibly cool about the one to one training.  
> They've set no limit on how many times I come in, and, in fact, they tend to 
> take any issues we discover seriously and if they can't address them, they 
> explore them or kick them upward.  So, it's become a pretty neat interchange. 
>  I feel very lucky to have this help available.  
> I also think the idea of putting together a sort of "best-of" quick guide 
> could be useful to the one to one training process for voice-over users.
> 
> Carolyn
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Sarai Bucciarelli wrote:
> 
>> When you buy a Mac, you can purchase training at your local apple store for 
>> $100 for a year's worth of training. This has been very helpful..
>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Kaare Dehard wrote:
>> 
>>> When I bought my Macbook pro, I did get some help from ontario's adp 
>>> program. I didn't however get the "maximum contribution" as things like the 
>>> screen reader weren't necessary. I don't do a lot of ocr, but I did like 
>>> k1000 for windows. I think you could make a case for the macs based on ease 
>>> of upgrade in certain environments. I do a bit of networking a tiny bit of 
>>> sound work, and a lot of correspondence, as well as basic word processing. 
>>> If you are to make a case for the inclusion, I think that tayloring it to 
>>> people who are willing to learn new and different things, and who are 
>>> working with multi-media and the net. 
>>> 
>>> Yep, you will have to stress that this is different and that the mac 
>>> products do address similar issues in a different way, and no, windows is 
>>> still great for some people but choice is also great.
>>> 
>>> Personally I don't think we will see an end to adaptive products, as there 
>>> are a valued group of buyers who would not be ready to have the capacity to 
>>> or be willing to learn new stuff. However, they still require service.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 2010-10-11, at 10:19 AM, Isaac Obie wrote:
>>> 
 Hello Heather,
 It's just like years ago I asked the state for Window Eyes. I was told, 
 "We only have Jaws". So it was Jaws or nothing!
 So I got in the habit of buying my own equipment. But some states are 
 giving Macs nowadays. I know one list member who received a Macbook pro 
 and is extremely happy with it. So I guess sometimes it's where you're at 
 the time. this person is seeking a job. So the Mac was to help in that 
 endeavor.
 I have a mac mini which I bought. Now I am trying to help a friend find a 
 Mac. The states will do as they please. I've come to accept that.
 Isaac
 - Original Message -
 From: heather kd5cbl
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:41 AM
 Subject: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information
 
 I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
 favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our 
 states have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive 
 technology while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals 
 struggle to keep their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a 
 letter about the mac for blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc.  
 I wanted to make the case that the states should not be so geared to 
 window based machines for there blind consumers.  I just don't no enough 
 about OCR solutions for the Mac like we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.  
 Also I am not sure about the braille translation programs for the macs as 
 we have mega dots or Duxbury for the windows computers.  Also, we use 
 victor streams, eclipse reders and for our textbooks so if there is a Mac 
 equivalent, I wanted to know about it.  I am trying to convince our rehab 
 department that they need to show both options to their consumers.  I plan 
 on submitting my letter at the end of the week to are rehab department.  
 Thank you, Heather
 
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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[heather kd5cbl]

Maybe someone should start a regular podcast on these issues.  I know some 
folks have done this in the past but not a regular show!  It would be cool 
if it was a live show that folks can call in to ask or text and ask 
questions!  I would pay for that podcast if it was good and addressed 
different issues!  Heather 


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RE: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Andy Baracco]

When you refer to the states, I would imagine that you are referring to the
state rehab agencies.  State rehab agencies are focused on employment, and
if they are purchasing computer equipment for a client, it is most likely
for employment related uses, and like it or not, most employers are using
Windows based computers.
 
Andy
 
 
"I'm pretty good at drinkin beer."
 

  _  

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of heather kd5cbl
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 6:42 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information


I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are
favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states
have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive
technology while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals
struggle to keep their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter
about the mac for blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc.  I wanted
to make the case that the states should not be so geared to window based
machines for there blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR
solutions for the Mac like we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.  Also I am not
sure about the braille translation programs for the macs as we have mega
dots or Duxbury for the windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams,
eclipse reders and for our textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I
wanted to know about it.  I am trying to convince our rehab department that
they need to show both options to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my
letter at the end of the week to are rehab department.  Thank you, Heather 

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[heather kd5cbl]

That should be illegal woe!  


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Re: track pads

[carlene knight]

Double tapping does nothing so I can't do much.  I do all kinds of things with 
the IPhone.  I got so frustrated that I gave my Magic Trackpad to my husband.  
When you can't select anything, it's silly to keep the device.


On Oct 5, 2010, at 3:25 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> have you tried practicing gestures?  Most of the gestures, if not all, are 
> the same as on the iPhone/iPod touch.  Starting keyboard help and practicing 
> gestures might help.  
> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:44 PM, carlene knight wrote:
> 
>> How do you click and double tap with a track pad?  I have the Magic Track 
>> Pad, and sometimes when links are highlighted, they tend to activate whether 
>> I want them to or not.  I can't seem to double tap on anything, nothing 
>> happens.  I am so frustrated with the thing that it is just sitting here on 
>> my desk getting more dust than use.  It works perfectly well for my sighted 
>> husband with the track pad commander turned off.
>> 
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> 
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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[heather kd5cbl]

Hay Mike, what is the name of your podcast?  Heather 


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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Carolyn Haas]

Hi Heather:
I'm having the same issue as someone with pretty poor hearing.  Fortunately for 
me, we have the rest area in the mall not far from the store, and often go 
there to escape the noise and save poor Melissa a lot of frustration .  Maybe 
at some point, ias the blind Mac user population grows, we can approach Apple.  
I know even trying to work with Bose headphones in the loud store was kind of a 
disaster for me.:)

Don't be afraid to ask for any other possible solution.  For example, today I 
went in for an 8:00 appointment, and the store was pretty quiet and doable.:)

Best
Carolyn
On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:37 PM, heather kd5cbl wrote:

> I like my training however, our store is so loud that I cant here the 
> voiceover or sometimes the individual at the store!  I wish they had a 
> separate area besides in the middle of a noisy store to do one on one! 
> Heather 
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Re: track pads

[carlene knight]

Sorry, I failed to thank you for your advice.  It was much appreciated.  I just 
finally gavve up.  I got the thing because I thought it would be like that, but 
for some reason it wasn't.  Maybe it was my computer, I don't know.
On Oct 5, 2010, at 3:25 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> have you tried practicing gestures?  Most of the gestures, if not all, are 
> the same as on the iPhone/iPod touch.  Starting keyboard help and practicing 
> gestures might help.  
> On Oct 4, 2010, at 9:44 PM, carlene knight wrote:
> 
>> How do you click and double tap with a track pad?  I have the Magic Track 
>> Pad, and sometimes when links are highlighted, they tend to activate whether 
>> I want them to or not.  I can't seem to double tap on anything, nothing 
>> happens.  I am so frustrated with the thing that it is just sitting here on 
>> my desk getting more dust than use.  It works perfectly well for my sighted 
>> husband with the track pad commander turned off.
>> 
>> -- 
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>> 
> 
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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[EWOUD]

BRING A HEADPHONE OR IERS WITH YOU, THAT WAY A CROWDY STORE IS NO PROBLEM!

EWOUD
- Original Message - 
From: "Carolyn Haas" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 2:46 AM
Subject: Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information


Hi Heather:
I'm having the same issue as someone with pretty poor hearing.  Fortunately 
for me, we have the rest area in the mall not far from the store, and often 
go there to escape the noise and save poor Melissa a lot of frustration . 
Maybe at some point, ias the blind Mac user population grows, we can 
approach Apple.  I know even trying to work with Bose headphones in the loud 
store was kind of a disaster for me.:)


Don't be afraid to ask for any other possible solution.  For example, today 
I went in for an 8:00 appointment, and the store was pretty quiet and 
doable.:)


Best
Carolyn
On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:37 PM, heather kd5cbl wrote:

I like my training however, our store is so loud that I cant here the 
voiceover or sometimes the individual at the store!  I wish they had a 
separate area besides in the middle of a noisy store to do one on one! 
Heather

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ogg files

[Robert Hooper]

As the subject line hints, I would like to be able to play ogg files on the 
Mac-and perhaps place them on to my iPhone as well. Is there any way within the 
limitless bounds of Apple's world-seducing energetic power that this can be 
done successfully?

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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[David McLean]

Have you tried Mike Arrigo's podcasts on blindcooltech.  After listening to 
them I found the conversion to the Mac a breeze.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:37 PM, heather kd5cbl wrote:

> I like my training however, our store is so loud that I cant here the 
> voiceover or sometimes the individual at the store!  I wish they had a 
> separate area besides in the middle of a noisy store to do one on one! 
> Heather 
> -- 
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> 

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Itunes iPhone and iPod copy/paste

[Wes]

Hi all,
I just discovered something in i Tunes.
When you have your i Phone/i Pod plugged in,go to it, and then the 
summary tab and interact.  Then, go to "manually manage music", and 
check it.  Then, you go to the sources table. then go to your i Pod/i 
Phone where it says (your name) i Pod/i Phone closed, or whatever it 
says in VO (I don't have a Mac yet), you can expand it.  Then, arrow 
down once until you hit "music."  Then, go to the "song" table.  Then go 
to the desktop or where ever you keep your music.  Copy the files or 
folders you want.  Then, paste them into the songs table.  It will sync  
only the files you selected.  I prefer doing it this way, I have better 
control.  This is the result of me being completely wide awake last 
night at 2 in the morning.  Lol.  Hope this helps you all.  Smiles,

Wes.

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JUST A THOUGHT

[EWOUD]

IT WOULD BE A MUCH MORE QUIET PLACE HERE, IF ANYONE FIRST LISNED TO THE 
PODCASTS,

DONE BY FOR EXAMPLE MIKE ORIGO, AVAILABLE ON
WWW.BLINDCOOLTECH.COM
AND THEN AFTERWORDS CAME BACK WITH APPLE / Iphone, IPOD TOUCH, V/O, 
TRACKPAD,  OR WHATEVER RELATED QUESTIONS.

OR AM I SAYING WEARD THINGS NOW? ANYWAY, IT JUST CAME UP TO ME, BIG SMILE.
   EWOUD 


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Noise in the Apple store

[Charlie Doremus]

Heather,
First off I agree with you about the noise levels at the stores this is an 
issue that Apple needs to address. When taking her one to one class my partner 
uses a set of mini speakers when using voice over. And at one location, in the 
mall, they set up a small table and they work right outside the front of the 
store. Maybe you could speak with a manager and see if they would be willing to 
help you out. What Apple store do you go to for your one to one?
Regardless of the noise problem Apple still does a great job

Aloha, 

Charlie

Check out our website www.giantdolphin.com 



On Oct 11, 2010, at 2:37 PM, "heather kd5cbl"  wrote:

> I like my training however, our store is so loud that I cant here the 
> voiceover or sometimes the individual at the store!  I wish they had a 
> separate area besides in the middle of a noisy store to do one on one! 
> Heather 
> -- 
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> 

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good apple commercial

[heather kd5cbl]

I live in Austin Texas.  We have an Apple corporate office here.  The 
university uses macs and some of the school districts too.  I remember when I 
had to use a mac, know one told me about voiceover.  They simply said "macs are 
not accessible so you cant take that class," and now the answer is, "good luck 
we don't have technology specialist to help you but, if you figure it out, can 
you help us?"  I don't like the rehab agencies because, they sign contracts 
with one thing and you have to fight to use the other.  Like in Texas, jaws is 
the only screenreader the state will buy unless you have some reason to get 
window eyes.  So instead of giving blind consumers a lot of options, there is 
just one or two.  For example, the federal government signed a contract with 
apple, not sure when, people will have to know how to use a mac.  The federal 
government is one of the largest hiring bodies of the blind.  But because, the 
windows are pushed on us and the macs are not shown to us, some of us will not 
take the jobs as we have been told the macs are not accessible for the blind.  
I think it would be really cool to have an apple commercial featuring a blind 
mac user using voiceover.  It could go like this:Scene 
Two blind people are shopping for a knew computer at the store.  One has to buy 
all these products while the other decides on a mac.  "windows quality pc 900 
dollars.;  windows office products, 300 dollars; The latest windows, 200 
dollars; Windows Monitor with  keyboard 150 dollars; windows screenreader 2000 
dollars.  Blind person buying a mac with I works and taking it home to use it 
without sighted assistance, priceless!"  Heather

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apple store

[heather kd5cbl]

Yes I signed up for appointments when the store opens now.  It is good, I am 
a morning person as long as I have my coffee!  Heather 


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Re: Noise in the Apple store

[heather kd5cbl]

The domain and there is not a table next to the store because, it is not in 
a mall or rather it is in an outdoor mall.  I think my next sessions will be 
quieter as the store will have just opened.  I hope!  Heather 


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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Pete Nalda]

I wonder if Apple has ever thought about this?  How many computers could they 
sell to the State Agencies?  Seems they need a Liaison between themselves and 
the various State Rehab agencies.

On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:44 PM, EWOUD wrote:

> it should better be a debate.
> there is No reason why windows would be favoured above apple.
> Apple has the possibilaty to  run windows on its machine, therefor its a 
> great alternative.
> windows cannot do that, and the price windows pc with screanreader is also no 
> good, so Apple has to be mentioned when it comes to choices!
> Ewoud
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Sarai Bucciarelli" 
> 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 PM
> Subject: Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information
> 
> 
> Hi:
> Good for you! I'm a Mac user as well, and I too feel rehab agencies need to 
> present both options, and let the consumer make up their own mind. The only 
> program I'd ever need to use on the Windows side of things is Kurzweil.
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
> 
>> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
>> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
>> have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive 
>> technology while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals 
>> struggle to keep their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter 
>> about the mac for blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc. I wanted 
>> to make the case that the states should not be so geared to window based 
>> machines for there blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR 
>> solutions for the Mac like we have Kurzweil1000 for windows. Also I am not 
>> sure about the braille translation programs for the macs as we have mega 
>> dots or Duxbury for the windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, 
>> eclipse reders and for our textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I 
>> wanted to know about it.  I am trying to convince our rehab department that 
>> they need to show both options to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my 
>> letter at the end of the week to are rehab department. Thank you, Heather
>> 
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Egun On, Lagunak! (Basque for G'day, Mates)
Pete Nalda
http://www.myspace.com/musikonalda
http://www.facebook.com/lpnalda
http://www.linkedin.com/in/lpnalda





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Re: good apple commercial

[Ray Foret Jr]

Hey, you know what, you ought to write Steve Jobs about that.  He'd go for it!!!


Sincerely, 
The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!

Now A Very Proud and very happy Mac user!!!

Skype Name:
barefootedray

On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:44 PM, heather kd5cbl wrote:

> I live in Austin Texas.  We have an Apple corporate office here.  The 
> university uses macs and some of the school districts too.  I remember when I 
> had to use a mac, know one told me about voiceover.  They simply said "macs 
> are not accessible so you cant take that class," and now the answer is, "good 
> luck we don't have technology specialist to help you but, if you figure it 
> out, can you help us?"  I don't like the rehab agencies because, they sign 
> contracts with one thing and you have to fight to use the other.  Like in 
> Texas, jaws is the only screenreader the state will buy unless you have some 
> reason to get window eyes.  So instead of giving blind consumers a lot of 
> options, there is just one or two.  For example, the federal government 
> signed a contract with apple, not sure when, people will have to know how to 
> use a mac.  The federal government is one of the largest hiring bodies of the 
> blind.  But because, the windows are pushed on us and the macs are not shown 
> to us, some of us will not take the jobs as we have been told the macs are 
> not accessible for the blind.  I think it would be really cool to have an 
> apple commercial featuring a blind mac user using voiceover.  It could go 
> like this:Scene
> Two blind people are shopping for a knew computer at the store.  One has to 
> buy all these products while the other decides on a mac.  "windows quality pc 
> 900 dollars.;  windows office products, 300 dollars; The latest windows, 200 
> dollars; Windows Monitor with  keyboard 150 dollars; windows screenreader 
> 2000 dollars.  Blind person buying a mac with I works and taking it home to 
> use it without sighted assistance, priceless!"  Heather
> 
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RE: Noise in the Apple store

[Paul Hunt]

Hello Heather. You must be from Austin. I also take training at the domain.
I use Laurice. She's an excellent trainer. We've been working on Pages. I'm
afraid the noise is just a fact of life and you'll have to live with it. If
you like coffee, there's a starbucks very close to the apple store. The
people are helpful and friendly but the store works by appointments
primarily. Good luck.



-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of heather kd5cbl
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 8:52 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Noise in the Apple store

The domain and there is not a table next to the store because, it is not in 
a mall or rather it is in an outdoor mall.  I think my next sessions will be

quieter as the store will have just opened.  I hope!  Heather 

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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Sarai Bucciarelli]

Hi:
They need to show it all, Mac Windows, etc. I don't like that most states' 
rehab agencies dictate what the consumer will get. They should show it all, and 
then taylor the technology to the consumers' specific situation, not one size 
fits all. I also am aware that it is very political. If specific people in 
rehab agencies do not like a technology company for what ever reason, they 
won't show their products. 

On Oct 11, 2010, at 7:41 PM, Andy Baracco wrote:

> When you refer to the states, I would imagine that you are referring to the 
> state rehab agencies.  State rehab agencies are focused on employment, and if 
> they are purchasing computer equipment for a client, it is most likely for 
> employment related uses, and like it or not, most employers are using Windows 
> based computers.
>  
> Andy
>  
>  
> "I'm pretty good at drinkin beer."
>  
> 
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of heather kd5cbl
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 6:42 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information
> 
> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
> have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive technology 
> while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals struggle to keep 
> their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter about the mac for 
> blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc.  I wanted to make the case 
> that the states should not be so geared to window based machines for there 
> blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR solutions for the Mac like 
> we have Kurzweil1000 for windows.  Also I am not sure about the braille 
> translation programs for the macs as we have mega dots or Duxbury for the 
> windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, eclipse reders and for our 
> textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I wanted to know about it.  I am 
> trying to convince our rehab department that they need to show both options 
> to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my letter at the end of the week to 
> are rehab department.  Thank you, Heather
> 
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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Sarai Bucciarelli]

Apple has a lot of contracts in the K-12 education market. They also offer 
student, and teacher discounts on computers, printers, iPods, etc.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:53 PM, Pete Nalda wrote:

> I wonder if Apple has ever thought about this?  How many computers could they 
> sell to the State Agencies?  Seems they need a Liaison between themselves and 
> the various State Rehab agencies.
> 
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:44 PM, EWOUD wrote:
> 
>> it should better be a debate.
>> there is No reason why windows would be favoured above apple.
>> Apple has the possibilaty to  run windows on its machine, therefor its a 
>> great alternative.
>> windows cannot do that, and the price windows pc with screanreader is also 
>> no good, so Apple has to be mentioned when it comes to choices!
>> Ewoud
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: "Sarai Bucciarelli" 
>> 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information
>> 
>> 
>> Hi:
>> Good for you! I'm a Mac user as well, and I too feel rehab agencies need to 
>> present both options, and let the consumer make up their own mind. The only 
>> program I'd ever need to use on the Windows side of things is Kurzweil.
>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
>> 
>>> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
>>> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
>>> have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive 
>>> technology while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals 
>>> struggle to keep their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter 
>>> about the mac for blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc. I wanted 
>>> to make the case that the states should not be so geared to window based 
>>> machines for there blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR 
>>> solutions for the Mac like we have Kurzweil1000 for windows. Also I am not 
>>> sure about the braille translation programs for the macs as we have mega 
>>> dots or Duxbury for the windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, 
>>> eclipse reders and for our textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I 
>>> wanted to know about it.  I am trying to convince our rehab department that 
>>> they need to show both options to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my 
>>> letter at the end of the week to are rehab department. Thank you, Heather
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
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>> 
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>> 
> 
> Egun On, Lagunak! (Basque for G'day, Mates)
> Pete Nalda
> http://www.myspace.com/musikonalda
> http://www.facebook.com/lpnalda
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/lpnalda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Sarai Bucciarelli]

I think they start training sessions at 7 A.M. It's usually quiet early in the 
morning.
On Oct 11, 2010, at 7:46 PM, Carolyn Haas wrote:

> Hi Heather:
> I'm having the same issue as someone with pretty poor hearing.  Fortunately 
> for me, we have the rest area in the mall not far from the store, and often 
> go there to escape the noise and save poor Melissa a lot of frustration .  
> Maybe at some point, ias the blind Mac user population grows, we can approach 
> Apple.  I know even trying to work with Bose headphones in the loud store was 
> kind of a disaster for me.:)
> 
> Don't be afraid to ask for any other possible solution.  For example, today I 
> went in for an 8:00 appointment, and the store was pretty quiet and doable.:)
> 
> Best
> Carolyn
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:37 PM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
> 
>> I like my training however, our store is so loud that I cant here the 
>> voiceover or sometimes the individual at the store!  I wish they had a 
>> separate area besides in the middle of a noisy store to do one on one! 
>> Heather 
>> -- 
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> 
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RE: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Robert Hooper]

As a way of further adding to the juicy pot of simmering contemplation already 
well on its way to ingestible delight on this list, the reason I am now in 
possession of a Macbook Pro is because of my state rehabilitation agency. I had 
to undergo an "adaptive technology assessment", which is essentially me sitting 
down with an assistive technology instructor and talking about my needs. Rather 
than treat the state agency's budget as if it were coming directly from his own 
pocket book, he was very open to me suggesting that I would like a Mac. I even 
took the potentially stupid step of telling him that I had never used a Mac 
before--and he followed this up by suggesting that I get a Macbook Pro rather 
than the standard line of Macbook. After reading the quote he subsequently sent 
to me, I came to realize that the state agency in question does not (and maybe 
never has) sold Macs to any of their consumers. Maybe I was just lucky enough 
to get somebody who was able to provide an unbiased recommendation on my behalf 
while realizing that PCs aren't always the easiest and most accessible 
solution. I know that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data" and that my 
viewpoint is purely subjective and lacking in external validity, yet as I 
stated previously, this is just another strand to add to this particular thread.
Sincerely:)
Robert Hooper
hooper...@buckeyemail.osu.edu

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Pete Nalda
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:54 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

I wonder if Apple has ever thought about this?  How many computers could they 
sell to the State Agencies?  Seems they need a Liaison between themselves and 
the various State Rehab agencies.

On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:44 PM, EWOUD wrote:

> it should better be a debate.
> there is No reason why windows would be favoured above apple.
> Apple has the possibilaty to  run windows on its machine, therefor its a 
> great alternative.
> windows cannot do that, and the price windows pc with screanreader is also no 
> good, so Apple has to be mentioned when it comes to choices!
> Ewoud
> 
> - Original Message - From: "Sarai Bucciarelli" 
> 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 PM
> Subject: Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information
> 
> 
> Hi:
> Good for you! I'm a Mac user as well, and I too feel rehab agencies need to 
> present both options, and let the consumer make up their own mind. The only 
> program I'd ever need to use on the Windows side of things is Kurzweil.
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
> 
>> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
>> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
>> have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive 
>> technology while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals 
>> struggle to keep their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter 
>> about the mac for blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc. I wanted 
>> to make the case that the states should not be so geared to window based 
>> machines for there blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR 
>> solutions for the Mac like we have Kurzweil1000 for windows. Also I am not 
>> sure about the braille translation programs for the macs as we have mega 
>> dots or Duxbury for the windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, 
>> eclipse reders and for our textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I 
>> wanted to know about it.  I am trying to convince our rehab department that 
>> they need to show both options to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my 
>> letter at the end of the week to are rehab department. Thank you, Heather
>> 
>> -- 
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> 
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RE: Noise in the Apple store

[Jude DaShiell]

Not at all correct.  A proper application of technology can eliminate the 
background noise and add value to the training sessions.  The trainer will 
need a mask microphone.  The trainee will need two sets of headphones one 
smaller than the other.  One of those the trainer speaks on.  The other 
the mac speaks on.  This is dirt cheap technology and any first semester 
electronics student could set it all up in about five minutes.On Mon, 11 
Oct 2010, Paul Hunt wrote:



Hello Heather. You must be from Austin. I also take training at the domain.
I use Laurice. She's an excellent trainer. We've been working on Pages. I'm
afraid the noise is just a fact of life and you'll have to live with it. If
you like coffee, there's a starbucks very close to the apple store. The
people are helpful and friendly but the store works by appointments
primarily. Good luck.



-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of heather kd5cbl
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 8:52 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Noise in the Apple store

The domain and there is not a table next to the store because, it is not in
a mall or rather it is in an outdoor mall.  I think my next sessions will be

quieter as the store will have just opened.  I hope!  Heather

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Re: ogg files

[Sarah Alawami]

You can use vlc media player to play ogg files but the player will stop and 
start almost like a buffer if you use it. I don't think you can put ogg files 
on yoru IDevice.

S
On Oct 11, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Robert Hooper wrote:

> As the subject line hints, I would like to be able to play ogg files on the 
> Mac—and perhaps place them on to my iPhone as well. Is there any way within 
> the limitless bounds of Apple’s world-seducing energetic power that this can 
> be done successfully?
> 
> 
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Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information

[Carolyn Haas]

MyHi:
My guess is thy haven't probably worried much about the ramifications and 
possible marketing opportunities with clients with disabilities.  I know 
they've always been big on education, and, for a while, a lot of the shools I 
went to had Apple based systems.  
I'd like to believe we're at the beginning of a wave wherein Rehab agencies 
will see the value of what Apple is doing, and we'll be paving the way for a 
lot of future mac users.  I'm planning to meet with the tech specialist at our 
state rehab center to put on a sales pitch for the mac and the iPad with 
voiceover as a more cost efficient and viable option for some people.  
Carolyn
On Oct 11, 2010, at 7:53 PM, Pete Nalda wrote:

> I wonder if Apple has ever thought about this?  How many computers could they 
> sell to the State Agencies?  Seems they need a Liaison between themselves and 
> the various State Rehab agencies.
> 
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:44 PM, EWOUD wrote:
> 
>> it should better be a debate.
>> there is No reason why windows would be favoured above apple.
>> Apple has the possibilaty to  run windows on its machine, therefor its a 
>> great alternative.
>> windows cannot do that, and the price windows pc with screanreader is also 
>> no good, so Apple has to be mentioned when it comes to choices!
>> Ewoud
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: "Sarai Bucciarelli" 
>> 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: please don't turn this in to a debate, just need information
>> 
>> 
>> Hi:
>> Good for you! I'm a Mac user as well, and I too feel rehab agencies need to 
>> present both options, and let the consumer make up their own mind. The only 
>> program I'd ever need to use on the Windows side of things is Kurzweil.
>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:41 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:
>> 
>>> I am a very knew Mac user and feel that our state rehab departments are 
>>> favoring the windows based machines over the mac machines.  Yes, our states 
>>> have all the money to give there blind consumers all this adaptive 
>>> technology while in school.  However, after school, blind individuals 
>>> struggle to keep their equipment up to date.  I am trying to write a letter 
>>> about the mac for blind consumers instead of jaws on a windows pc. I wanted 
>>> to make the case that the states should not be so geared to window based 
>>> machines for there blind consumers.  I just don't no enough about OCR 
>>> solutions for the Mac like we have Kurzweil1000 for windows. Also I am not 
>>> sure about the braille translation programs for the macs as we have mega 
>>> dots or Duxbury for the windows computers.  Also, we use victor streams, 
>>> eclipse reders and for our textbooks so if there is a Mac equivalent, I 
>>> wanted to know about it.  I am trying to convince our rehab department that 
>>> they need to show both options to their consumers.  I plan on submitting my 
>>> letter at the end of the week to are rehab department. Thank you, Heather
>>> 
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>> 
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> 
> Egun On, Lagunak! (Basque for G'day, Mates)
> Pete Nalda
> http://www.myspace.com/musikonalda
> http://www.facebook.com/lpnalda
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/lpnalda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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