Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

illersolar.com/> CA Lic. 773985 *From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] *On Behalf Of *Ray *Sent:* Tuesday, February 1, 2022 10:11 AM *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenc

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

b 1, 2022, at 12:19 PM, William Miller wrote: > >  > Ray: > > Thanks for that input. I was hoping I was wrong. I looked for that > discussion in the archives but could not find it. > > William > > Miller Solar > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > 80

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

Bassett [mailto:bbasse...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, February 1, 2022 2:15 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Cc:* William Miller *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems "A switch, outside of the building, opening the PV circuit to the power electronics, and functioning as the pv s

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

s/o0ukef> *From:* RE-wrenches on behalf of Jeremy Rodriguez *Sent:* Tuesday, February 1, 2022 8:31:16 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems What about the PV circuits tha

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

y 1, 2022 8:31:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems What about the PV circuits that leave the combiner and are ran on or in a building to the CC Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 812

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems What about the PV circuits that leave the combiner and are ran on or in a building to the CC Jeremy Rodriguez Solar Installation / Design Expert All Solar, Inc. 1453 M St Penrose Colorado 81240 Sent by Jeremy's iP

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

t; CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 10:11 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re:

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

-top or ground-mount. Although the 2020 code includes >>> some differing language, I don’t see it as exempting ground mount systems. >>> >>> >>> >>> The moral of the story is this: For ground-mounts: either install RSS or >>> put your equipme

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

38-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *Ray > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 1, 2022 10:11 AM > *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > *Subject:* Re: [RE-

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

ary 1, 2022 10:11 AM > To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems > > Ground mounts do NOT require RSS. We hashed this out years ago on the > Wrenches list, when NEC 2017 came out. > > See Figure 690.1(B) Note (2): "

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries and loads, >>> that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own >>> articles. >>> >>> I have not read through the battery sections of the code to verify this, I >>

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ray *Sent:* Tuesday, February 1, 2022 10:11 AM *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems Ground mounts do NOT require RSS. We hashed this out years ago on the Wrenches list, when NEC 2017 came out

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

llersolar.com/> CA Lic. 773985 *From:*Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, February 1, 2022 6:07 AM *To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems 2017 code has a specific exception/clarification for ground mount solar

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

ttp://www.millersolar.com/> CA Lic. 773985 *From:*Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, February 1, 2022 6:07 AM *To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems 2017 code has a specific exception/clarification for ground mount

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

07 AM *To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems 2017 code has a specific exception/clarification for ground mount solar that it does not need RS. It’s in the first line after 690.12 Jay On Feb 1, 2022, at 12:13 AM, William Miller wrote:

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

Miller Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, February 1, 2022 6:07 AM *To:* will...@millersolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

Monday, January 31, 2022 7:21 PM > To: William Miller; RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems > > William > Are you sure RSD is required on a non habitable building, historically its > not required. Now that being said we use fire raptor w

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 *From:* Kirpal [mailto:solarwo...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, January 31, 2022 5:21 PM *To:* RE-wrenches; William Miller *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems Hi William. We have had good luck with the AP Smart Rapid shutdown system

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Monday, January 31, 2022 7:21 PM *To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems William Are you sure RSD is required on a non habitable building, historically its not required. Now that being said we use fire raptor with the best

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

William Are you sure RSD is required on a non habitable building, historically its not required. Now that being said we use fire raptor with the best results, yes it takes an extra conduite and might require a button and power supply depending on inverter application. Jerry On Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 9

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

I also recently used the Tigo with Sol-Ark to provide the 12V signal with good success. The Tigo transmitter can also (barely) fit inside the Sol-Ark wiring compartment, so you do not need the whole Tigo enclosure for it. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 8:21 PM Kirpal wrote: > Hi William. >

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

Hi William. We have had good luck with the AP Smart Rapid shutdown system. It is similar to the Tigo in that it sends a "heartbeat" signal to the units up behind each solar panel over the power wires. I haven't tried the Tigos yet but would be open to it if the opportunity presented itself. The t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

William, We did one this year, offgrid, Outback Radian with Simpliphi batteries. Used the outback rapid shutdown option which is probably similar to the fire raptor system. Cheers!, Vic Guillot Vic Guillot Sol Sierra, Inc. 209.795.3554 office 209.768.3560 mobile/text On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 9:5

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

Hi William, We have a half dozen plus off grid systems using SolArk inverters and TIGO optimizers. They work well and the TIGO's, from my experience, have been really reliable. The necessary 12 volt signal can come directly from the relay in the SolArk inverter. Best, Daryl DeJoy NABCEP Certifi

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

Hi William, I have had good luck with the Tigo TS4-AF. Although it does require a 12VDC power supply for it's RSD transmitter, Outback, Sol Ark and Schnieder have a straight forward integration not requiring dependency of AC output from inverter. Best, Chris On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 12:57 PM Wil

[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

Friends: It is quite rare for us to install off-grid systems on roof-tops. We have one coming up with about 20kW on a large barn roof. This will be our first off-grid with a module-level rapid shutdown requirement. I see no exemptions from RSS for off-grid systems in the code. I have looked

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage - Update

ons. Have a good Thanksgiving  and Stay Safe. Take Care All *From:* RE-wrenches *On Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel *Sent:* Tuesday, November 23, 2021 9:40 AM *To:* August Goers ; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage

 and Stay Safe. Take Care All *From:* RE-wrenches *On Behalf Of *Christopher Warfel *Sent:* Tuesday, November 23, 2021 9:40 AM *To:* August Goers ; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage

Hi Christopher If it is a newer radian then it has an ac coupling mode. When the batteries start to reach the charge set point, the inverter starts pushing the hz up snd up. Once it gets to 64, all new GT inverters shut off, including enphase. Voltage drops, hz drops, 5 minute delay, rinse

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage

You can use the frequency shift in the radian inverter to shut down the micros. Yes gets to 64hz but probably not going to happen very often? Or you could find a remote controlled relay controlled via the radian aux relay. Jay Peltz power. > On Nov 23, 2021, at 7:39 AM, August Goers wrote:

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage

It was tough for me to figure out how to write my email and not make it confusing. What I am worried about is the microinverter system operating when the utility goes down and the microinverters continuing to operate and charge the batteries as a load.  I need to disconnect the microinverter

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage

ing errors.-- Original message--From: Christopher WarfelDate: Tue, Nov 23, 2021 10:24 AMTo: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage I would appreciate ideas on how to

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage

Hi Chris - If I'm following you right, you have a PV system on a detached garage that ties into a backup subpanel also in the garage? The code only requires the RSID (rapid shutdown initiation device) to be on the exterior of the building. Would it work to put the RSID on the garage exterior? You c

[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Control for a System for a Multimode System Adding an Array to a Subpanel in Garage

I would appreciate ideas on how to shut down a proposed microinverter system on a garage that is 100% serviced by an Outback Radian multimode system in the main building that has the garage on the back up service panel in the main building. Garage has a MLO subpanel that is connected to the mu

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown on Parking Garage

Sounds like everything is a building in the 2020 code.. Here is the 2020 NEC Article 100 Definition: - *Building.* A structure that stands alone or that is separated from adjoining structures by firewalls. The 2020 NEC Handbook has this note after the definition: - A building is ge

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown on Parking Garage

Wrenches I have done several canopies, warehouses all considered non habitable and therefore did not require an RSD. AHJ's all can interpit buildings slightly different including construction materials used so a conversion with the AHJ is a safe solution and prevent permit kickbacks and re-writes.

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown on Parking Garage

Hey Corey, that's a real can of worms that can go either way depending on the AHJ. We've spent quite a few hours trying to develop a better approach for 2023, not that that'll help you anytime soon. I can say that you'll twist yourself into knots with the NEC® definitions of building and structur

[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown on Parking Garage

Code gurus, It seems that a parking garage is properly considered to be a "building" under NEC Article 100 definitions—and that 690.12 rapid shutdown requirements would therefore apply. I am wondering if anyone has successfully argued that 690.12 should *not* apply to systems installed on the top

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Martin, Micro inverters are the safest. Opening a string under load is dangerous. Having qualified personnel servicing the equipment is essential. My point is that an isolated incident is not statistical data. All technologies have their hazards. The number of electricians injured by various

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Drake, I concur with your approach on this item - 1. Either the shock hazard was reduced by NEC 690.12 with MLPE for the workers *too* or folks have been qualified persons in accordance with NEC 690.4(C) to recognize and avoid the shock hazard for string inverters. 2. Specifically, there's this

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

I live in a small town, so our outreach probably has greater impact. We have gone to the FD meetings, we tell them about the system types and definitions, quiz them and follow up. So, I think depending upon training, which is not a one shot deal, it can have an impact. They seem relieved. On 202

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

FM100 has onboard AFCI http://www.outbackpower.com/products/charge-controllers/flexmax-100-afci I hope this helps. Take Care All From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2020 11:34 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance Wrenches We

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

I agree: utilize the formal process, ideally with a group of folks. If you are a SEIA member, get involved in their Codes and Standards process. The additional directory language you suggest is not likely to be valuable to many first responders without significant training and documentation, and

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

To change this, we need to recognize we are "fighting City Hall", and I doubt the CMP will be motivated to make changes on their own.  Maybe this has always been more political than technical, but it seems that those who are opposed to the current requirements need to make it known through the

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

If first responders are the point of all the rapid shutdown, there needs to be better exemptions. I personally have a 20kW solar array on a 100 year old unused barn at my farm. The roof is at 50 degrees slope and needs a 60ft boom lift to access. There was significant extra expense and effort for t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

I believe Rapid Shutdown was mostly a solution looking for a problem.   The only way I see this becoming "reasonable" is to present "grievances" to the Code Making Panel WITH a solution for their consideration.  Based on experience from being part of an outreach program that taught approximatel

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Spending more time on the roof, while putting more equipment and parts to meet MLPE, means more trips up the ladder, which increases, not decreases the #1 worker safety danger: Falls. Please correct me if I have somehow misunderstood this, but MLPE is not making installers safer based on OSHA i

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Interestingly enough, the data on the link [9] provided shows accidents from gas explosions, falls, health problems and industrial injuries. None of these incidents could have been prevented by module level power electronics. This is typical of the data that I've seen so far. --- On 2020-05-0

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? 1. This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities and Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance Secure Power

off by the RS system that needs AC to activate it firstDon BarchEnergy Solar Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 08:35:51 -0400 From: Tump <t...@swnl.net> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance Message-ID: <7273560e-f55b-4007-8

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

We are running into the same problem with battery back-up, grid-tie systems. Many Rapid Shutdown solutions turn off the array when utility power is off, which isn't desirable. We have one client with an underground service and the local AHJ wants the RS initiating device near the meter (as our Cana

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

How about a SPDT switch, all one is doing is supplying AC voltage from the utility, (powering the MLPE box's Ac to Dc converter) their utility or SSP from the SB’s utility. > On May 4, 2020, at 8:04 PM, > wrote: > > Many customers ask about keeping power alive when the grid is down. Besides

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Many customers ask about keeping power alive when the grid is down. Besides battery backup, I advocate the Secure Power feature of SunnyBoy inverters. But the problem with MLPE is that it is incompatible with Secure Power. When the grid goes down the MLPE disconnect each solar module's DC feed. So

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

1. I use a MLPE residential ground-mounted solution - rapid shutdown or not. w/Accessible MLPE. 2. There is a maximum physical string length for me to keep in mind, for instance, found here: "In the context of this document, string length refers to the number of optimizers and modules in the str

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

I was told at a training a couple years ago that there were going to be some modules coming out soon that had a microchip in the module junction box which would replace the diodes and effectively work as MLPE. I have not heard anything about that recently though. Does anyone know what I am talking

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Since I only work with off-grid systems, I find the 690.12 exception starting in NEC 2017 for ground-mounted systems with DC equipment in a separate structure intended only for PV components, is very useful for avoiding expensive, unneeded RSS equipment. Many folks don't like the idea of a battery

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string inverters. Anecdotal problems are not data. The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it doesn't. Systems that are more cost effective and relia

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

I agree w/ Ray as most of my work is Off grid. Incorporating addition failure points ( RSD modules. optimizers ect.) for a system that is usually quite a distance from service, be it my service or the fire departments, I find the justification very hard. Ive replaced your micro inverters at 0* d

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

All - Ray has a good point, the discussion here is really about two different types of systems - mainstream ongrid PV, and small scale (and a relatively small market) offgrid PV. It's really tough to design a small offgrid system (especially DC coupled) with rapid shutdown. I think it's just a case

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Deadline for 2023 NEC® public input is in September. Brian > On Apr 30, 2020, at 7:12 AM, Ray wrote: > >  > Hi Jerry; > > This isn't about us not being willing to learn the tech. All of us are > constantly learning about new code changes, new inverters, and solar modules > that change spe

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Hi Jerry; This isn't about us not being willing to learn the tech.  All of us are constantly learning about new code changes, new inverters, and solar modules that change specs every few months.  We are voluntarily adopting new technology (like Lithium Ion batteries) when that technology is co

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Wrenches We are taking two very different issues and mixing them together. RSD and Arc-fault are different, arc fault will and does prevent fires, RSD was brought out of the need to vent a roof that even with the meter pulled have 500 volts and resulted shocks to fire fighters by cutting into roofs

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays. This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources. As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence that s

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

"Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires." Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or microinverter architecture. While RS o

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both commercial and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk of fires or in various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of these systems have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just went wrong.

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

my two cents worth, 690.11 says turn off from all arcs, that means serial and parallel that means module lwevel shutdown ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: h

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

I agree, 690.12 should have exemptions for lower voltage, lower power systems, and shorter runs; especially off grid.  10 years ago, I was promoting some type of remote controlled disconnect at the array, but that was for voltages over 400v, with unprotected conduit runs over a 100 ft long, on

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

My 2 cents are related to the very few times I have had to do RS for offgrid. My advice is to install whatever the inspector wants, assuming he can't be convinced of the mindless requirement. Complete the installation. Do the right thing after by abandoning it. Have the client remove the RS signi

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Hi Drake I will disagree, there have been many roof top fires. But regardless we have to do these new regulations and I for one welcome the safety. The main issue is accessing the faulty/suspect component under the module possibly requiring removing multiple modules, a slow and expensive pr

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems. According to a f

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Hi Corey - As we've grown, and as our fleet of installed systems has grown, I've become increasingly interested in choosing an inverter solution that shows per-module production data. I realize that you specifically asked not to consider optimizers or microinverters, but I wonder if that will be a

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It’s added a lot of cost for no measurable benefit. Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when commissioning systems. Also we’ve been trying ou

[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

Now that 690.12 of the *NEC* 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters

Hi, I am the wife of Bruce and I have to tell you that my beloved husband had a fatal accident. Sylvia On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 at 13:27, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar < offgridso...@sti.net> wrote: > Unfortunately Ray I have had 2 cases where the Local building inspector > thought that it was a wildfir

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters

Unfortunately Ray I have had 2 cases where the Local building inspector thought that it was a wildfire risk to not have RS, and yes on a ground mount. Too long to go into here but in the rurals where my clients are, it can be easier to comply. After about 4 phone calls it was easier to just do

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters

Here's a page I put in my plan sets to make its clear for the AHJ.  I have not had this challenged, and we have never implemented Rapid Shutdown on a ground mounted array. Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 2/13/20 2:57 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: This points out the problem of inco

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters

This points out the problem of inconsistent interpretation due in part to conflicting or unclear language. I always like to ask how many basements have protection around the NM conductors running through and along the rafters. I know several people on CMPs are on this listserv.  I am hoping tha

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters

It all comes down to where you install the PV disconnect.  We put it on the wall before the conductors enter the building or at the array, therefore 690 doesn't apply.  Proper signage is required indicating multiple power sources and listing the locations of their disconnects. Also, this isn't

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters

Ray, I spent a bit of time today with a person who inspects for several state renewable energy programs and to summarize, this person said the opposite of what you said, and finish saying "seems pretty clear cut".  We did review three sections of 690, and one from 705.  I pointed out that these

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters

This has been discussed to death in previous Wrench strings. Just to cut to the chase: please review NEC 2017, Figure 690.1(b) Note:(2). /The PV system disconnect in these diagrams separates the PV system from all other systems.// / The inverter, charge controller, batteries etc are no longe

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters

Hi Chris, A few times and my back-up with a schneider system is their rapid shutdown. In the end the inspector comes around and realizes there is little gain for an offgrid ground mounted array for fireman. You do have to educate them and if they are insistent on being a bonehead, install the RS f

[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters

I got involved in a long discussion on Rapid Shutdown compliance for battery multimode, grid interconnect inverters that have a ground mounted array.  At one point, ground mounted array was not supposed to be subject to Rapid Shutdown unless there were dc conductors on the building.  NEC 2017 s

Re: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter

utilizing power-line communication (PLC).   Please tell me what system you have that is wireless?   Thanks, Glenn   From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 12:16 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter  

Re: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter

renches On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 12:16 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter Try Tigo, they have a MLPE shutdown wireless and does not use PLC (Power Line Communication). With an unknown inverter, the i

Re: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter

The IMO FireRaptor units are as far as I know immune to any interference from charge controls or inverters. It does not rely on wireless or power line communications. It is simply a hard wired module level disconnect that runs on 24VDC. It has two-wire daisy chain cables between them, with a nice c

Re: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter

I may have spoken too soon on this. It turns out that the LSOB system just does not work with PV charge controllers. The Princeton Power Systems DRI-10 inverter has charge controllers built in, which is why the system was not working. Cheers, Dave *Dave Tedeyan, PE* Senior Engineer | Taitem Engin

Re: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter

Just a note about midnite's SOB rapid shutdown system. It does not seem to work with all inverters. I was recently helping someone with a Princeton Power Systems inverter add in rapid shutdown. There was some kind of line noise coming from the inverter that was causing the rapid shutdown system to

Re: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter

Try Tigo, they have a MLPE shutdown wireless and does not use PLC (Power Line Communication). With an unknown inverter, the inverter switching noise may trigger the Tigo's PLC to keep on or shut off. Shutting off the inverter stoping module array current, and the AC supply to the "Gateways" los

Re: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter

Thanks Rick. I like the acronym. Jerry Caldwell On Wed May 29 2019 16:07:19 GMT-0700 (PDT), Rick Brown wrote: Jerry, Check out Midnight Solar’s Rapid Shutdown Shut Off Box (SOB).  http://www.midnightsolar.com/ rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracti

Re: [RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter

Jerry, Check out Midnight Solar’s Rapid Shutdown Shut Off Box (SOB). http://www.midnightsolar.com/ rick brown SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC Electrical & Solar Contracting Services www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com Check, Virginia 24072 540.808.9502 VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660 VA

[RE-wrenches] rapid shutdown units for obscure inverter

Dear Wrenches, We are installing a system for a project we did not design. The plans specify 5 Ginlong Solis inverters. Ginlong does not make their own rapid shutdown device, so units by Innovative Solar Products have been specified. The Innovative Solar rapid shutdowns are made to order and wi

[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown, was Re: [RE-outback skybox)

For Rapid Shutdown, I started using Midnite's BOS system, it can be set up on a string level or module level (2019) with enough receivers.  While it doesn't work with most charge controllers right now, it does work with the Magnum PT100 oddly enough.  We haven't had any glitches, the RS worked

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

Excellent, thanks Rebekah! ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

Hey Evan, if you click on first draft report instead of submit comments you will find it. On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:03 AM Evan M wrote: > Curious if there's any way to view the 2020 draft with the gray > highlighted proposed changes formatting typical of published final versions > of the Code.

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

Curious if there's any way to view the 2020 draft with the gray highlighted proposed changes formatting typical of published final versions of the Code. I didn't see it but it would make for much easier comparison of what's being considered and how that change really differs from the status quo wit

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

In submitting my comments, I only could access 2017, and that's where I made my comments.  Does anyone have more information, or is it too late? On 8/29/2018 10:05 PM, Ray wrote: The link to review the first draft of the 2020 code is not working.  Do you have just the changes for 690?  I'd r

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

The link to review the first draft of the 2020 code is not working.  Do you have just the changes for 690?  I'd really like to submit some comments. Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar 303 505-8760 On 8/28/18 7:59 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: Hi all, What you need to do now - to get your voices heard

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

Thanks Rebecca, This will help. Chris On 8/28/2018 9:59 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote: Hi all, What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about rapid shutdown requirements-  is to make public comments on the first draft of the 2020 NEC. *_Comments are due AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! _* Here i

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

Hi all, What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about rapid shutdown requirements- is to make public comments on the first draft of the 2020 NEC. *Comments are due AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! * Here is the link to a press release

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

I like your solutions to this. Just sticking to rapid shutdown and not the fire code, I think a lot of the problems with 690.12 could be reduced if the maximum string voltage was 150 or even 250.  It reduces the ampacity on a roof for a given power and I feel that is more of a danger than array

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