The link to review the first draft of the 2020 code is not working. Do
you have just the changes for 690? I'd really like to submit some comments.
Thanks,
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 8/28/18 7:59 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote:
Hi all,
What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about rapid
shutdown requirements- is to make public comments on the first draft
of the 2020 NEC. *_Comments are due AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! _*
Here is the link to a press release
<https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review> with
links to read the draft and input your comments:
https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review
The process for changing the NEC is standardized by the NFPA and while
it may not be perfect, it's what we've got!
Best,
Rebekah Hren
On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:50 AM cwarfel
<cwar...@entech-engineering.com
<mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com>> wrote:
I like your solutions to this. Just sticking to rapid shutdown and
not the fire code, I think a lot of the problems with 690.12 could
be reduced if the maximum string voltage was 150 or even 250. It
reduces the ampacity on a roof for a given power and I feel that
is more of a danger than array voltage that the Firefighters are
highly likely to avoid.
I still cannot get Outback Power to provide a corrected
installation manual or a start up procedure on the RSI/ICS
equipment. Two plus months and all I get are repeated vague or
incorrect information. One expert at OB said that they really
didn't deal much with Rapid Shutdown............
I cannot install any more Outback on roofs at this time.
I'll see if it is ok to provide a link to an online petition to
change 690.12.
Chris
On 8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote:
HI Chris;
As with all things bureaucratic, good intentions can go awry
when actually implemented. Years ago, I was one of the wrenches
pushing for some form of disconnect closer to the power source,
or the PV array. I had no idea it would come back to bite us
small off grid folks so hard, though. I'm not quite for
scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs some serious
work. /In or on the building/ needs to be defined more clearly as
'on the roof'. Ground mounts need a clearer exemption. The PV
disconnect needs to be clearly defined and also clearly stated
that the Rapid disconnect system stops there. The time limit
needs to be bumped up to 90 seconds: no one is going to throw the
switch and be hacking on the roof that fast. The array voltage
should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage off grid systems could
be exempt, and I really think 690.12 should only apply to larger
arrays (over 10kW) that have long exposed runs of conduit (over
10 yards) or that cover more than a certain percentage of the
total roof area. If an array covers one face of the garage it
should be exempt, and if it covers half the total roof, then it
should have Rapid disconnect, for instance. We need to be
sensible, do the fire fighters have a good spot to cut and vent
the roof without electrical hazards or not?
Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost
entirely oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid
is barely even considered. Just look at the lack of thought when
they wrote the definitions for /DC to DC Converters/. The solar
industry has been ready and willing to be thrown under the bus at
every turn. I think its about time we started advocating for our
own self interests like all the other parties involved. This
also means that us off grid folks need to be properly
represented, and off grid considered with all code changes. I
think DC coupled PV should have its own section and be separated
from AC coupled PV. The systems are so different that it doesn't
make sense to throw them into the same section. The emergence of
article 706 is a step in the right direction.
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, cwar...@entech-engineering.com
<mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com> wrote:
I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and
personally. It was ill conceived and ill written. Anyone
willing to join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact
me off list.
To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and
you are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or
on building" which i cannot seem to find what that actually
means. Exempted are buildings that are isolated only for the PV
system This is a big win for installers as almost everyone
installs systems like this....... Right. They used to have a
dimension to this, but I guess that gave installers too much
information. This is a stupid Code addition for roof mounted pv
systems, disguised as protecting Firefighters, but not doing so
in reality. The NEC looks politically compromised by consultants
and manufacturers who too advantage of this fear mongering. No
other country with a pv industry has historically done this. Why
are installers not up in arms about this?
This is the NEC reference.
690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system
circuits installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid
shutdown function to reduce shock hazard for emergency
responders in accordance with 690.12(A) through (D).
If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the
"altruistic" intent of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put a
initiation device disconnect switch at the array. Any
supporters of RS should chime in with the support of 690.12 and
add clarity and guidance to those of us who actually install
systems and have to deal with this baloney. 690.12 has caused
more problems for multimode systems than any tariffs, which are
bad enough. I don' think the industry needs any more "safe
design and installation" assistance from the CMPs involved with
this issue.
Chris Warfel
On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote:
Greetings fellow wrenches;
I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not
been able to resolve the contradictory information in 690 in
regards to implementing 690.12. As Rebekah Hren pointed out
before, the diagrams shown in Figure 690.1(b) show that the /PV
System DC Circuit/ stops at the /PV Disconnect/. Note 2 says
specifically the '/PV Disconnect separates the PV system from
all other systems/'. But then in the definitions in 690.2 on
the next page, the new definition of a /P//V System DC Circuit/
says that it includes DC to DC converter output circuits.
(which are Solar Edge module level controls, but could be
interpreted as a MPPT battery charge Controller?)
Then 690.12 which only applies to '/PV System circuits in or on
buildings/', says we have to control conductors more than 3 ft
after penetrating the building.
So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing an
external lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes into
the building. This will officially be the PV Disconnect. In
my interpretation, I should not need to do any Rapid Shutdown,
because I've essentially prevented the /PV system/ from ever
entering the building at all ( based on the 5th diagram and
Note 2) However, I could see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS all
the way to the output side of the charge controller.
If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the
PV disconnect to the output of the charge controller, or am I
back to module level shutdown for my ground mounted array, or
could I build a tiny building that just housed the PV
Disconnect and take the exemption for '/buildings with the sole
purpose of housing PV system equipment/'?
Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at
odds with the Figure and Notes of 690.1. They really didn't
fix this in the 2017 code for us lowly off gridders. Charge
controllers are covered by article 706.23___/Charge Control/_,
and NOT by 690.12 at all. IMHO, the charge controller needs to
be clearly defined and differentiated from DC to DC converters
like Solar Edge's module level DC equipment.
I just want to go back to doing solar designs and
installations, and quit acting like an attorney parsing every
word of this confusing code language.
--
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
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ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
(401)466-8978
EEI logo <http://entech-engineering.com>
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