I live in a small town, so our outreach probably has greater impact. We
have gone to the FD meetings, we tell them about the system types and
definitions, quiz them and follow up. So, I think depending upon
training, which is not a one shot deal, it can have an impact. They seem
relieved.
On 2020-05-07 11:39, Brian Mehalic wrote:
> I agree: utilize the formal process, ideally with a group of folks. If you
> are a SEIA member, get involved in their Codes and Standards process. The
> additional directory language you suggest is not likely to be valuable to
> many first responders without significant training and documentation, and
> even then is still likely to get "lost" amongst other labels and directories.
> RS as required now instead focuses on an initiation device(s), so that the
> device is all responders need to look for - it's up to the installer to
> specify and put in the correct gear to make RS happen, and the AHJ to verify
> this.
>
> Brian Mehalic
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59
> National Electrical Code(R) CMP-4 Member
> (520) 204-6639
>
> Solar Energy International
> http://www.solarenergy.org
>
> SEI Professional Services
> http://www.seisolarpros.com [1]
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 6:43 AM Christopher Warfel
> <cwar...@entech-engineering.com> wrote:
>
> I believe Rapid Shutdown was mostly a solution looking for a problem. The
> only way I see this becoming "reasonable" is to present "grievances" to the
> Code Making Panel WITH a solution for their consideration. Based on
> experience from being part of an outreach program that taught approximately
> 10k firefighters over four years, I have asked that they add to the
> Directory, the language that states what type of solar electric system is on
> site (Microinverter, dc optimizer, string, multimode, grid isolated) so that
> First Responders don't have to guess. I realize this is different than MLPE,
> but it targets the person who Rapid Shutdown came into being for, and that
> was the First Responder. Chris
>
> On 5/6/2020 10:37 PM, Ray wrote:
>
> Spending more time on the roof, while putting more equipment and parts to
> meet MLPE, means more trips up the ladder, which increases, not decreases the
> #1 worker safety danger: Falls. Please correct me if I have somehow
> misunderstood this, but MLPE is not making installers safer based on OSHA
> information provided. Also after installation, which system is more likely
> to require workers to return to work on the roof, pulling up modules, trying
> to find problem equipment? More connections is More safe? Really? I
> haven't had to climb back up on the roof on any of my older, lower voltage
> off grid work in almost a decade.
>
> Once again, MLPE has its place, (larger systems, multiple subarrays, higher
> voltage) but we should have sensible exemptions as have been mentioned
> already. We are endangering ourselves and our employees needlessly, to
> comply with 690.12.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 5/6/20 8:41 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
>
> Interestingly enough, the data on the link [2] provided shows accidents from
> gas explosions, falls, health problems and industrial injuries. None of
> these incidents could have been prevented by module level power electronics.
> This is typical of the data that I've seen so far.
>
> ---
>
> On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote:
>
> There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety?
>
> 1. This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities and
> Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here:
> https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr=
>
>
> 2. In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with
> traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter
> NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to reduce the shock
> hazard - for _emergency responders_ or _firefighters? (NEC 2020)._ However,
> I've observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans and workmanship
> issues.
>
> On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the construction
> industry.
>
> All the best,
>
> Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master
> Trainer (tm) for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037
> Contract Training Provider (CTP)
> Adjunct Professor, Energy
>
> California Solar & Electrical Contractor License #00833782 C46, C10, D56,
> D31, C-7 - Since 2004
> Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation
>
> Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections
> Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer #32-0105338
> CompTIA Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+) #T3NSZCNBBKB4QTQG
>
> * Professional Member, International Association of Electrical Inspectors
> #7035507 - Since 2006
> * Accredited and Registered North American Board of Certified Energy
> Practitioners (NABCEP) Continuing Education (CE) Training Provider
>
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 8:29 AM <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
>
> I would like to see real data on the fire risk of string inverters. Anecdotal
> problems are not data.
>
> The industry is definitely heading toward MLPE due to the rapid shutdown
> requirements. In many cases MLPE makes sense, in other cases it doesn't.
>
> Systems that are more cost effective and reliable can often be built by using
> string inverters.
> ---
>
> On 2020-04-29 22:05, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> "Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires."
>
> Not true. If the effect of RS is to steer the market to MLPE, I believe it
> has a significant impact on reducing fire risk. As one who has watched a DC
> conductor fire smolder out of control, I am sold on an AC module or
> microinverter architecture. While RS on a DC array doesn't necessarily reduce
> fire risk within the array, it still has the potential to reduce severity and
> spread. Nothing is going to prevent all fires. I get that. We're talking
> about risk mitigation when it comes to RS.
>
> As for "dependable string inverters," the one dependable feature is failure
> at least once in the module lifetime, accompanied by a shocking repair bill.
>
> I'm not a shiny object following kind of guy, but the writing is on the wall.
> MLPE is the future. Modular, serviceable, disposable if you will. Like it or
> not, Edison is going to lose this battle to Tesla (Tom vs Nikola). And I live
> less than 5 minutes away from Tommy E's winter home in Fort Myers, FL. And I
> "grew up" in the industry living off-grid in DC power. But AC distribution
> wins for safety at various scales.
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 9:42 PM <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:
>
> Rapid Shutdown does not prevent fires; it was originally drafted to allow
> firefighters to vent a roof without being hindered by energized PV arrays.
> This rule was expanded to include other DC wiring from PV sources.
>
> As for PV safety, I'd like to see some significant, statistical evidence that
> shows there is a major fire danger from PV relative to other sources. A fire
> from a solar array gets a lot more press than one from a gas leak, bad wiring
> or an ash tray emptied into a wastepaper basket.
>
> Large public buildings should have all the protection that is available. Does
> one size fit all?
>
> Would it be reasonable to allow residential installations under 12 kW, with
> 1/4 of the roof adjacent to the array available for venting, to be excepted
> from 690.12? What about sparsely occupied commercial buildings with ample
> roof area open for ventilation?
>
> Many of us have chosen to work with renewable energy technology to lessen the
> harms caused by fossil fuel extraction and combustion. The need for
> non-carbon based energy sources has become extremely clear.
>
> The old string inverters still chug along year after year, with little or no
> maintenance. Someone must pay for the ongoing maintenance of module level
> electronics. Dependable string inverter systems should be allowed unless
> statically significant danger can be demonstrated.
>
> Drake
>
> ---
>
> On 2020-04-29 16:01, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> I have been to several PV fires for string inverter systems, both commercial
> and residential, and have seen many DC systems at serious risk of fires or in
> various stages of melted insulation and connectors. Most of these systems
> have exhibited good to excellent workmanship. Things just went wrong. Some
> were traceable to animal damage, wind, or other unmitigated factors, and some
> were unexplained. I disagree that there isn't justification for rapid
> shutdown.
>
> In my opinion, what we need is some additional innovation and competition in
> the MLPE space. Reliability is clearly a key factor, but there is no denying
> that MLPE has added safety benefits among other benefits. And if you do
> enough volume and set up your business for efficiency (standardization of
> product offerings), MLPE isn't much more expensive. It becomes a negligible
> cost relative to the benefit. The value proposition is easy to convey. There
> are limits to this, but for the majority of residential and small commercial
> installations, MLPE has become the de facto standard around here. String
> inverters are dinos, and replacing 8-12 year old transformer based inverters
> is many times more annoying than some MLPE swaps. I will admit that the roofs
> around here are pretty easy to walk, so that is a factor that might not apply
> to you.
>
> If you go under due to manufacturer product failures, you are not writing
> your contracts right or not charging enough for service issues beyond your
> control. I believe that's a red herring. You might suffer some reputation
> damage, but for someone that has been installing MLPE for over a decade, that
> is totally manageable. Consumers find a service call to replace MLPE a LOT
> more palatable than a surprise inverter replacement that could cost thousands
> of dollars. People just don't plan for that.
>
> Regarding rapid shutdown devices, I have also come across a few that
> "someone" has bypassed around here. I don't know if they were never installed
> properly or disabled/bypassed due to failure. It seemed suspicious to me at
> the time. I remember that it made me wonder what good is a rapid shutdown
> device if it is easily defeated? That's another argument for MLPE. It has
> pretty failsafe MLPE functionality.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>
> wrote:
>
> Clearly, rapid shutdown increases cost and reduces reliability. Given the
> excellent safety record of PV, prior to rapid shutdown being required, it is
> unnecessary. The few anecdotal incidents of PV fires were not enough to
> justify the requirement, especially on smaller systems.
>
> According to a friend who worked for a local installation company that went
> under, a big part of the reason for their failure was the chronic replacement
> of microinverters and optimizers.
>
> What steps can be taken to create some balance in the rapid shutdown
> requirements that are in the NEC?
>
> ---
>
> On 2020-04-29 07:27, Sky Sims wrote:
>
> So far rapid shutdown has been a nightmare. It's added a lot of cost for no
> measurable benefit.
> Using always off devices like midnight solar and Tigo makes it impossible to
> test open circuit voltages. Which opens the door to tons of problems when
> commissioning systems.
> Also we've been trying out midnight Solar's product and have had an absurd
> failure rate. Which means lots of truck rolls and troubleshooting and system
> downtime. They send replacement product but they aren't paying for the lost
> weeks of productivity.
> We have Tigo product in hand and are deciding which project to try it on. But
> our big concern about using it is not only the inability to confirm open
> circuit voltage of the strings but also the way panels bypass if the device
> doesn't allow the panel to connect properly. Both of these features are a
> recipe for problems and potential troubleshooting nightmares. The warranty
> from Tigo doesn't cover our expense if the product fails. And that's really
> what our reservations about the product boil down to right now. If we're on a
> job with 50 units and one fails, the contractor or the homeowner will be the
> ones eating the expense of finding it and replacing it. There has to be a
> better option.
>
> Sky Sims
> Https://EcologicalSystems.biz
>
> On Apr 28, 2020, at 7:46 PM, Corey Shalanski <coreso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Now that 690.12 of the _NEC_ 2017 has been in effect for several years, I am
> curious how designers and installers are meeting the associated requirements
> with string inverter-based systems (*not* considering microinverters or DC
> optimizers). I am generally a fan of the KISS principle, and as best I can
> determine the _Tigo_ TS4-F device is one of the simplest options currently
> available on the market. What are others finding?
>
> I'd love to hear about favored options for complying with rapid shutdown. Any
> success stories? or better yet, any early failures?
>
> --
> Corey Shalanski
> Jah Light Solar
> Portland, Jamaica _______________________________________________
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