Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/29/22 9:59 PM, John Levine via mailop wrote: but nobody's ever had much use for notifications that "yes I delivered the mail" even though there's been a spec for that for a long time. I find that I use "RCPT TO:<...> NOTIFY=SUCCESS" about once a year for various reasons. Usually when I'm

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

It appears that Ellenor Agnes Bjornsdottir via mailop said: >No place for 252 ("I've accepted your message and I will do my best, but >you'll have to wait on word from the recipient before considering it >delivered")? If you look at RFC 5321, you'll see that 252 only applies to the nearly forgot

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

No place for 252 ("I've accepted your message and I will do my best, but you'll have to wait on word from the recipient before considering it delivered")? On 9/14/22 15:20, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: Dnia 14.09.2022 o godz. 16:49:58 Thomas Walter via mailop pisze: If I send someone an emai

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Hello, > why bother to self host an email? using gmail/gsuite save a lot of time. Until you have your country blocked by Google or some "law" stuff. Or... got banned by Google because of any stupid algorithm ... Regards, Xavier ___ mailop mailing list

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Am 14.09.22 um 03:32 schrieb Jarland Donnell via mailop: I can't block Gmail IPs, at all. It's on average 48% of who my clients communicate with. While they may be sympathetic to the fact that an IP of theirs sent spam, they will not hold anyone accountable for their missed email but me. So it

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

on Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 04:54:30PM -0700, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: > These numbers are also worse than when I worked on Gmail years ago, but > it's always possible things got worse. I know I am a tiny speck, but as just another data point, I'm looking at a folder full of spam with 731 messag

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

> Am 16.09.2022 um 03:36 schrieb Kai 'wusel' Siering via mailop > : > > on 15.09.22 15:37, Gellner, Oliver via mailop wrote: >> >> To get back to the original topic: In my opinion many of the claims made in >> this blog post are factually wrong. Instead of countering each of them I >> rather po

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Dnia 16.09.2022 o godz. 03:57:36 Kai 'wusel' Siering via mailop pisze: > > While myself I still do "evangelize" on various forums - wherever I can - > > that "Friends don't let friends use Gmail", quite a lot of my actual friends > > *do* use Gmail and I have no way to make them not to... > > Of

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Am 14.09.22 um 12:29 schrieb Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop: While myself I still do "evangelize" on various forums - wherever I can - that "Friends don't let friends use Gmail", quite a lot of my actual friends *do* use Gmail and I have no way to make them not to... Of course you do, actually, we

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Moin, on 15.09.22 15:37, Gellner, Oliver via mailop wrote: […] The full blogpost can be read here: https://cfenollosa.com/blog/after-self-hosting-my-email-for-twenty-three-years-i-have-thrown-in-the-towel-the-oligopoly-has-won.html To get back to the original topic: In my opinion many of the c

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

> On Sep 15, 2022, at 7:37 AM, Gellner, Oliver via mailop > wrote: > >> https://cfenollosa.com/blog/after-self-hosting-my-email-for-twenty-three-years-i-have-thrown-in-the-towel-the-oligopoly-has-won.html > > To get back to the original topic: In my opinion many of the claims made in > this

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

> I am not a lawyer and it's difficult to discuss laws in a different language, > but according to the definitions of the Telecommunications Act, anyone who > provides e-mail services to others is obliged to maintain the secrecy of > telecommunications. For this reason, they may not evaluate or

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

> Am 12.09.2022 um 12:28 schrieb Evert Mouw via mailop : > > A guy named Carlos Fenolossa wrote on his blog: > > After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the > towel. The oligopoly has won. > > He also states: it's a risk for the industry > > The full blogpost can be

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Dnia 15.09.2022 o godz. 09:52:30 Slavko via mailop pisze: > > I have idea (not implemented yet) to do server side personal SPAM > (bayes) filter, which will be trained automatically (based on move > to/from Junk folder) and will eg. negate delivery to Junk folder from > central filter. I did some

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Dnia 15.09.2022 o godz. 09:07:23 Thomas Walter via mailop pisze: > > I'd love to use Ham/Spam filters, but in a very diverse environment > (university campus) with users of all languages that's a difficult task to > get right. In that case these filters clearly should be per-user. -- Regards,

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Hi, Dňa 15. septembra 2022 7:07:23 UTC používateľ Thomas Walter via mailop napísal: >I'd love to use Ham/Spam filters, but in a very diverse environment >(university campus) with users of all languages that's a difficult task to get >right. Sure, in case of big amount of different users, the

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 15.09.22 03:04, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: FWIW in Germany it's against the law to not deliver an email after you have accepted it. (Not sure if it made it to EU law yet…) Even spamfolders are a grey area unless you make sure your user is not only using POP3 to access th

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 14.09.22 18:12, William Kern via mailop wrote: On 9/14/2022 7:49 AM, Thomas Walter via mailop wrote: Your users opinion may also change if they can't get that automated 'forgot my password' reset link from a service they want to use. No, they'll contact support and tell them they don't g

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Moin, On 14.09.22 17:52, Slavko via mailop wrote: In my case, the false-positives are really rarely. Mostly when user meets new eshop (or so) with broken email system (and need to be WL -- but that seems to be improved in last year). The biggest problem, which i meet with false positives was wit

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

> On 14 Sep 2022, at 22:29, Matthias Leisi wrote: > > >> What I’ve said elsewhere is that what consumers, enterprises, and SMBs all >> need is a healthy selection of services from which to choose. The problem >> with the entry costs is that you have to be able to leverage a cloud >> infras

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

In germany, you need to keep business related communication for 10 years. You are not allowed to delete these email as an end user. A company needs to keep all emails that are business related. As a mail provider you do not know if an email is business related. So if you silently drop the email and

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 3:39 AM Thomas Walter via mailop wrote: > > > On 14.09.22 11:24, Renaud Allard via mailop wrote: > > On 9/14/22 10:57, Alessandro Vesely via mailop wrote: > >> * Stop blackholing. > > > > That one is the absolute worst of the worst of the worst. Blackholing is > > som

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/14/22 3:11 PM, William Kern via mailop wrote: You are Correct. Context matters here. :-) A SpamTag thus is only useful on an email client that has been setup to automatically sort 'SPAM' tags into the Junk folder. Thus that email is still delivered to and on the recipient mailserver ava

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/14/2022 1:48 PM, Grant Taylor via mailop wrote: I would urge you to be mindful of what "quarantine" means in different email specific contexts. Multiple MTAs have the concept of quarantining messages (I know that Sendmail and Postfix do and I believe that others do too) wherein the mess

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/14/22 10:12 AM, William Kern via mailop wrote: A middle ground is a tag quarantine policy. I would urge you to be mindful of what "quarantine" means in different email specific contexts. Multiple MTAs have the concept of quarantining messages (I know that Sendmail and Postfix do and I

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/14/22 6:16 AM, Dan Malm via mailop wrote: I disagree hard on that one. We used to reject mails flagged as spam by our filters and it was wildly unpopular. Implementing delivery to a spam folder was very much welcomed by most users (though ofc you can't please everyone... We got some compla

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

> What I’ve said elsewhere is that what consumers, enterprises, and SMBs all > need is a healthy selection of services from which to choose. The problem > with the entry costs is that you have to be able to leverage a cloud > infrastructure to play these days. That’s not cheap. The main issu

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Dnia 14.09.2022 o godz. 11:10:32 Anne Mitchell via mailop pisze: > > I think what is being lost here is that for any inbox that is being > provisioned by a webmail provider (and maybe others), it is an advantage > for the *webmail provider* to have each user have a spam folder. These > providers

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

> If I have to check a spamfolder for false positives every day, I can just > have them delivered to my inbox. The spamfolder does not have an advantage > then. I think what is being lost here is that for any inbox that is being provisioned by a webmail provider (and maybe others), it is an a

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 14/09/2022 15:49, Thomas Walter via mailop wrote: If I send someone an email and get a reject, I know they didn't receive it. It's my job to make sure they get the email then or contact them using other means. That only works if someone reads, and acts on, delivery failure reports. When yo

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/14/2022 7:49 AM, Thomas Walter via mailop wrote: Your user's opinion on that will change as soon as someone missed a bid or contract, because it hid in the spam folder :). If I send someone an email and get a reject, I know they didn't receive it. It's my job to make sure they get the

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/14/2022 7:49 AM, Thomas Walter via mailop wrote: If I have to check a spamfolder for false positives every day, I can just have them delivered to my inbox. The spamfolder does not have an advantage then. Actually, it does, depending on how bad the false-positive and false-negative rate

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Ahoj, Dňa Wed, 14 Sep 2022 16:49:58 +0200 Thomas Walter via mailop napísal: > If I have to check a spamfolder for false positives every day, I can > just have them delivered to my inbox. The spamfolder does not have an > advantage then. But that is about your SPAM filter quality (false positi

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Dnia 14.09.2022 o godz. 16:49:58 Thomas Walter via mailop pisze: > > If I send someone an email and get a reject, I know they didn't receive it. > It's my job to make sure they get the email then or contact them using other > means. > > That's a lot better than Schrödinger's mailbox where you don

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 14.09.22 14:16, Dan Malm via mailop wrote: I disagree hard on that one. We used to reject mails flagged as spam by our filters and it was wildly unpopular. Implementing delivery to a spam folder was very much welcomed by most users (though ofc you can't please everyone... We got some compl

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

I’m sure it’s been mentioned somewhere upthread, but to reiterate, the concentration levels in the email market have been measured.[1] The OP on Twitter and elsewhere isn’t wrong that it’s a PITA to set up and run an SMTP server, but to do it right for an SMB or even a large enterprise offers v

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Me too, I have my own mta and I use a vps and have spf. As yet, I don't have dkim and mark, but things still seem to work. On Wed, 14 Sep 2022 06:29:35 -0400, Mark Foster via mailop wrote: > > > On 14/09/2022 9:24 pm, Renaud Allard via mailop wrote: > > > > > > On 9/14/22 10:57, Alessandro Ve

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

From the article: "I have been self-hosting my email since I got my first broadband connection at home in 1999. I absolutely loved having a personal web+email server at home, paid extra for a static IP and a real router so people could connect from the outside. I felt like a first-class ci

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 02:16:32PM +0200, Dan Malm via mailop wrote: > On 2022-09-14 12:29, Mark Foster via mailop wrote: > > (OpenSRS) did nothing useful with the 5xx error and the consequence > > would've been very disruptive for a service I have a strong interest in, > Yup... That sure sounds

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 14/09/2022 9:24 pm, Renaud Allard via mailop wrote: Even "spam folder" is a bad idea. If it's spam, reject it with 5XX. You can never be sure people will look in the spam folder. And if they do check it, why should it be there in the first place, email could as well land in inbox, that's o

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Wed, 2022-09-14 at 10:57 +0200, Alessandro Vesely via mailop wrote: > On Wed 14/Sep/2022 00:09:49 +0200 Jim Popovitch wrote: > > On Tue, 2022-09-13 at 15:56 -0600, Grant Taylor via mailop wrote: > > > On 9/13/22 3:33 PM, Jim Popovitch via mailop wrote: > > > > > > > > It's not hard to do, it'

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 14/09/2022 9:24 pm, Renaud Allard via mailop wrote: On 9/14/22 10:57, Alessandro Vesely via mailop wrote: * Stop blackholing. That one is the absolute worst of the worst of the worst. Blackholing is something that _MUST NOT_ be done, ever, for whatever reason. There is never and h

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 14.09.22 11:24, Renaud Allard via mailop wrote: On 9/14/22 10:57, Alessandro Vesely via mailop wrote: * Stop blackholing. That one is the absolute worst of the worst of the worst. Blackholing is something that _MUST NOT_ be done, ever, for whatever reason. There is never and has ne

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Dnia 14.09.2022 o godz. 01:32:53 Jarland Donnell via mailop pisze: > > Do any of you feel as though you could hold Gmail accountable for anything > and actually be heard at the same time? Because if you get fired as admin, > or your users leave you, what good is theoretically holding them > accoun

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/14/22 10:57, Alessandro Vesely via mailop wrote:     * Stop blackholing. That one is the absolute worst of the worst of the worst. Blackholing is something that _MUST NOT_ be done, ever, for whatever reason. There is never and has never been a good reason for blackholing. If you don't

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

> On 14 Sep 2022, at 01:24, Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote: > > On 9/13/22 16:13, John Levine via mailop wrote: > >> Um, why is it Google's fault that some random blacklist erroneously >> listed some of their IPs? >> As someone else said, it only makes sense to block IPs if you believe >> they

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Wed 14/Sep/2022 00:09:49 +0200 Jim Popovitch wrote: On Tue, 2022-09-13 at 15:56 -0600, Grant Taylor via mailop wrote: On 9/13/22 3:33 PM, Jim Popovitch via mailop wrote: It's not hard to do, it's just not super easy. Try writing down all the things that you've done and would need to re-do

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

You are missing something..and that's okay. Someday it will hit home. For now, let's just keep pushing for just the right laws. There are definitely no trade offs to consider. People are the problem. Government is the answer. On Tue, Sep 13, 2022, 8:07 PM Ángel via mailop wrote: > On 2022-09-13

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 2022-09-13 at 11:48 -0700, Luke wrote: > There's some serious irony throughout this thread. Out of one side of > our mouths we despise "oligopolies" and service providers who get too > big to block or, conversely, too big to care about their own spam > footprint. And out of the other side of our

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

The difference in philosophy on this topic is actually one of the more interesting discussions I've seen in a while. I'll throw my hat in the ring and see if it shakes loose any additional valuable opinions. I can't block Gmail IPs, at all. It's on average 48% of who my clients communicate wit

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 2022-09-13 22:55:52 (+0800), Alan Hodgson via mailop wrote: On Tue, 2022-09-13 at 09:30 +0100, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: That’s not what I’m seeing at all. What I’m seeing is complaints that it’s difficult to host your own email without any real commitment of resources (whether those re

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 2022-09-14 04:38:45 (+0800), Slavko via mailop wrote: Dňa 13. septembra 2022 20:18:00 UTC používateľ Chris Adams via mailop napísal: Self-hosted email is hard (or really, impossible) for a high enough percentage of the Internet population that it is effectively 100%. My father has been usi

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/13/22 16:13, John Levine via mailop wrote: Um, why is it Google's fault that some random blacklist erroneously listed some of their IPs? As someone else said, it only makes sense to block IPs if you believe they will never, ever send mail your users want. That's not how blocklists work.

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

It appears that Eduardo Diaz Comellas via mailop said: >After investigation, several IPs used by gmail to send the email were >blacklisted. I had a tough time explaining to the customer that it was >gmail's fault to still use this IPs to send their email. ... Um, why is it Google's fault that s

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

I maintain one clear benchmark for outbound, which actually breaks out into 3 things: The clear and consistent ability to email AT&T, Verizon, and Microsoft. Including all sub-brands of each. If you can keep those 3 things alive, you're in the clear. I can't imagine being able to successfull

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Tue, 2022-09-13 at 15:56 -0600, Grant Taylor via mailop wrote: > On 9/13/22 3:33 PM, Jim Popovitch via mailop wrote: > > Right, that's why I have said repeatedly that it is not super easy. > > It's not hard to do, it's just not super easy. > > I agree that it's not easy by any stretch of the im

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/13/22 3:33 PM, Jim Popovitch via mailop wrote: Right, that's why I have said repeatedly that it is not super easy. It's not hard to do, it's just not super easy. I agree that it's not easy by any stretch of the imagination. I dare say that it's more on the hard end than I'd like to admit.

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Tue, 2022-09-13 at 15:18 -0500, Chris Adams via mailop wrote: > Once upon a time, Jim Popovitch said: > > I agree. Self hosted email is not hard, and it's just not super easy. :) > > > > The much harder aspect of email is getting your peers, family, and > > friends to adopt encryption. > > Se

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Its tricky I agree, but not impossible, I started back in the late1990’s I think, and have had 3 mail servers running in that time, so around 20 years now, it started as a hobby for friends, then just slowly expanded into friends business’s and then there was no stopping it, now due to the volum

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Dňa 13. septembra 2022 20:18:00 UTC používateľ Chris Adams via mailop napísal: >Self-hosted email is hard (or really, impossible) for a high enough >percentage of the Internet population that it is effectively 100%. My >father has been using computers since well before I was born, is still >wor

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Once upon a time, Jim Popovitch said: > I agree. Self hosted email is not hard, and it's just not super easy. :) > > The much harder aspect of email is getting your peers, family, and > friends to adopt encryption. Self-hosted email is hard (or really, impossible) for a high enough percentage of

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

> If an IP is a significant source of spam, it deserves to be blocklisted. End > of story. An RBL operator giving known spammers a pass due to their size > isn't being honest or transparent, and this behavior serves to drive people > to the oligopoly. This goes two ways, actually: a sender ce

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/12/22 23:34, Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop wrote: That's an example why you should only blacklist a "grey" source if you have very good reasons to do so. * Either you don't reasonably expect legit mail from there, in which case your blocking would only affect spam, which is ok. *

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

There's some serious irony throughout this thread. Out of one side of our mouths we despise "oligopolies" and service providers who get too big to block or, conversely, too big to care about their own spam footprint. And out of the other side of our mouths we are begging for security and privacy re

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Hey Al! > it's been great to add more granular filtering directly and watch mail > bounce. We run our own server and I do this too...it's pretty gratifying, almost zen... but what I really wanted to say was: > and it dawns on me that I'm already running all the pieces of a mailbox > provider

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 3:11 PM Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote: Why has Google recently made so painfully difficult for the rest of the Internet to make them aware of Gmail-originated spam? Why do you think this is recent? AFAIK Google ha

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Tue, 2022-09-13 at 09:30 +0100, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: > > > > That’s not what I’m seeing at all. What I’m seeing is complaints > that it’s difficult to host your own email without any real > commitment of resources (whether those resources be time or money). > A lot of the complaints

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Dnia 12.09.2022 o godz. 21:07:12 Grant Taylor via mailop pisze: > On 9/12/22 8:15 PM, Dave Crocker via mailop wrote: > > I believe 'impossible' is not the prevailing sentiment. > > > > I believe the prevailing sentiment is that it is a challenging task, > > requiring significant expertise. > > Th

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On Tue, 2022-09-13 at 09:12 +0200, Dominique Rousseau via mailop wrote: > Le Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 08:57:26AM -0400, Jim Popovitch via mailop > [mailop@mailop.org] a écrit: > > On Mon, 2022-09-12 at 19:02 +0800, Henrik Pang via mailop wrote: > > > wh

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 2022-09-13 at 02:23:43 UTC-0400 (Tue, 13 Sep 2022 01:23:43 -0500) Michael Rathbun via mailop is rumored to have said: On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 19:15:46 -0700, Dave Crocker via mailop wrote: - On 9/12/2022 7:01 PM, Al Iverson via mailop wrote: Because I disagree with the whole premise that se

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

> On 13 Sep 2022, at 00:54, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 4:16 PM Paul Kincaid-Smith > wrote: > > We have a reasonably large sample of messages sent from Gmail, Yahoo and > Outlook and can assess how much was "spam foldered" by each o

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

> On 13 Sep 2022, at 04:07, Grant Taylor via mailop wrote: > > On 9/12/22 8:15 PM, Dave Crocker via mailop wrote: >> I believe 'impossible' is not the prevailing sentiment. >> I believe the prevailing sentiment is that it is a challenging task, >> requiring significant expertise. > > The prev

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 13.09.2022 07:57, Eduardo Diaz Comellas via mailop wrote: [...] After investigation, several IPs used by gmail to send the email were blacklisted. I had a tough time explaining to the customer that it was gmail's fault to still use this IPs to send their email. Gmail never acknowledged the

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Le Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 08:57:26AM -0400, Jim Popovitch via mailop [mailop@mailop.org] a écrit: > On Mon, 2022-09-12 at 19:02 +0800, Henrik Pang via mailop wrote: > > why bother to self host an email? using gmail/gsuite save a lot of > > time. > > Why make a home cooked meal when you can buy the s

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Am 13.09.22 um 07:57 schrieb Eduardo Diaz Comellas via mailop: I agree with the general sense that GMail is misbehaving at spam management, both incoming and outgoing processing is flawed (in my opinion). I will just talk from the gmail's customer side: a customer of mine moved to gmail. They

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 19:15:46 -0700, Dave Crocker via mailop wrote: >- > >On 9/12/2022 7:01 PM, Al Iverson via mailop wrote: >> Because I disagree with the whole premise >> that self hosting mail is impossible today [snip] >I believe the prevailing sentiment is that it is a challenging task, >req

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

I agree with the general sense that GMail is misbehaving at spam management, both incoming and outgoing processing is flawed (in my opinion). I will just talk from the gmail's customer side: a customer of mine moved to gmail. They still have secondary domains hosted with us. A couple of weeks

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 2022-09-12 at 15:50:57 UTC-0400 (Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:50:57 -0700) Brandon Long via mailop is rumored to have said: By their very nature, the personal servers that people are talking about here just don't see the same volume of spam. Of course not. That's a truism. More significantly (and a

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/12/22 8:15 PM, Dave Crocker via mailop wrote: I believe 'impossible' is not the prevailing sentiment. I believe the prevailing sentiment is that it is a challenging task, requiring significant expertise. The prevailing sentiment that I see represented is that it's difficult enough to ho

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

- On 9/12/2022 7:01 PM, Al Iverson via mailop wrote: Because I disagree with the whole premise that self hosting mail is impossible today I believe 'impossible' is not the prevailing sentiment.  If it were, the various folk who run such services probably would be doing something else. I be

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

I've got strong feelings about this one. I recently moved some of my domains off of Gmail and it's been great to add more granular filtering directly and watch mail bounce. So I'm hosting inbound mail. And I forward a bunch of mail. And I host a handful of mailing lists, so I've got a server with g

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 4:16 PM Paul Kincaid-Smith wrote: > > We have a reasonably large sample of messages sent from Gmail, Yahoo and > Outlook and can assess how much was "spam foldered" by each of those > services. We are in the same ballpark as John Levine, who estimated that > "about 30% of

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 3:11 PM Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote: > On 9/12/22 14:39, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: > > > I think if that were true, the amount of spam coming out of them would > > be much > > higher. Unfortunately, even a 1% false-negative rate would still result > > in a large >

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

We have a reasonably large sample of messages sent from Gmail, Yahoo and Outlook and can assess how much was "spam foldered" by each of those services. We are in the same ballpark as John Levine, who estimated that "about 30% of the mail I get from Gmail is spam." EmailGrades collects metrics abou

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:50:57 -0700, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: >By their very nature, the personal servers that people are talking about >here just don't see >the same volume of spam. Just about any spammed account will see a different collection of senders, topics, &c. My tiny self-hosted

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/12/22 14:39, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: I think if that were true, the amount of spam coming out of them would be much higher.  Unfortunately, even a 1% false-negative rate would still result in a large volume. I think there may also be a material difference in the types of spammers

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 12.09.22 21:50, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: By their very nature, the personal servers that people are talking about here just don't see the same volume of spam. But this is exactly the other direction from which you might want to look at it? Of course you receive more Spam in numbe

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 2:06 PM Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote: > On 9/12/22 10:23, Grant Taylor via mailop wrote: > > On 9/12/22 5:13 AM, Thomas Walter via mailop wrote: > >> What bothers me most is that the oligopoly makes it impossible to > >> deliver emails to protect their users from spam, ye

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/12/2022 1:29 PM, Grant Taylor via mailop wrote: I consider it self hosted if you run the MTA software on a system and are responsible from there up the stack. While that view has some logic to it, it probably isn't the most practical view, especial in a forum like this and a topic like

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Hello, >> Gmail certainly receives an order of magnitude more spam attempts >> each day than all of the email that gmail sends. So, no, we are >> not the biggest source by volume. > > Maybe I should have said that Gmail is perceived as the largest source > of spam by volume. > > I know that t

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/12/22 10:23, Grant Taylor via mailop wrote: On 9/12/22 5:13 AM, Thomas Walter via mailop wrote: What bothers me most is that the oligopoly makes it impossible to deliver emails to protect their users from spam, yet it is the biggest source of it… Does anyone have any evidence that shows

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/12/22 2:44 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: While that view has some logic to it, it probably isn't the most practical view, especial in a forum like this and a topic like this. I'll suggest that the criterion to apply is:  Control over all reputation-related attributes and behaviors. I can't ag

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Am 12.09.22 um 22:29 schrieb Grant Taylor via mailop: On 9/12/22 2:01 PM, Slavko via mailop wrote: Thus it was not self-hosted, only (semi) self-managed ;-) I don't agree. If you use that mentality, nobody, not even Google, self hosts as they get their facilities -> connectivity -> domain ->

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/12/22 1:50 PM, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: I don't think they are the biggest source of spam by volume either, Hum. :-/ but I think there is a very large amount of spam which targets just the large providers, or most of them. Perhaps. By their very nature, the personal servers tha

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/12/22 2:01 PM, Slavko via mailop wrote: Thus it was not self-hosted, only (semi) self-managed ;-) I don't agree. If you use that mentality, nobody, not even Google, self hosts as they get their facilities -> connectivity -> domain -> bla bla bla from someone else. I consider it self h

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Dňa 12. septembra 2022 19:32:21 UTC používateľ John Levine via mailop napísal: >By the way, I am pretty sure that the reason the blogger had trouble >getting his mail delivered is that he hosted it at Digital Ocean. Thus it was not self-hosted, only (semi) self-managed ;-) regards -- Slavko

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 10:26 AM Grant Taylor via mailop wrote: > On 9/12/22 5:13 AM, Thomas Walter via mailop wrote: > > What bothers me most is that the oligopoly makes it impossible to > > deliver emails to protect their users from spam, yet it is the biggest > > source of it… > > Does anyone

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

It appears that Grant Taylor via mailop said: >-=-=-=-=-=- >-=-=-=-=-=- > >On 9/12/22 5:13 AM, Thomas Walter via mailop wrote: >> What bothers me most is that the oligopoly makes it impossible to >> deliver emails to protect their users from spam, yet it is the biggest >> source of it… > >Does a

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

On 9/12/22 5:13 AM, Thomas Walter via mailop wrote: What bothers me most is that the oligopoly makes it impossible to deliver emails to protect their users from spam, yet it is the biggest source of it… Does anyone have any evidence that shows that the big players are the biggest source of sp

Re: [mailop] The oligopoly has won.

Dnia 12.09.2022 o godz. 19:02:44 Henrik Pang via mailop pisze: > why bother to self host an email? using gmail/gsuite save a lot of time. Because Internet was designed to be a *distributed* system. Everybody can have a server and host any service. The oligopoly mentioned here pushes the Internet

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