Hi, Berin. All,
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:18:44 +1000
(Subject: Re: ASF member role - accountable to whom)
Berin Lautenbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'd like to say, "Those who would write articles in the newsletter
> > draft, are worthy to become members, because
On Monday, Sep 22, 2003, at 01:26 Europe/Rome, Stephen McConnell wrote:
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
I said nothing about documentation, process, policy or accountability.
LOL
We certainly agree on this!
:-)
Agree about what? that I didn't say what you previously accused me of
having said?
This
Jim Jagielski wrote:
--
Andrew C. Oliver|acoliverapache.org |2003-08-22| 144|
Nicola Ken Barozzi |nicolakenapache.org|2003-09-19| 142|
Rodent of Unusual Si|coarapache.org |2003-09-21| 141|
Greg Stein |gsteinapach
> From: Tetsuya Kitahata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I'd like to say, "Those who would write articles in the newsletter
> draft, are worthy to become members, because they really care
> for the foundation as a whole". Also, I'll give an announcement
> (=call) at members@ not community@ in the next time.
Tetsuya,
> > Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.
> ROTFL. Statistics won't tell a lie.
> Would you like to damn off the Vadim's
> http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/index.html
No. However, someone naively looking at them, and not knowing about
mirroring and the inconsistent state across
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
I said nothing about documentation, process, policy or accountability.
LOL
We certainly agree on this!
:-)
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED
> From: Tetsuya Kitahata [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 12:04 AM
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:25:35 -0400
> Rodent of Unusual Size <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > the foundation *as a whole*. presumably you care about the welfare
> > of japan, but don't know what's goi
In the meantime, despite the choice of rhetoric, and making it sound as if
there was an unaccountable process, Stephen has posted a page that does
warrant review, especially by those who have actual Incubator experience.
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?IncubatorMussings
I suspect t
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:12:17 -0400
"Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Statistics would not tell a lie. No prejudice, no favoritism.
> Actually, in the USA we have a famous expression:
> Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.
> Statistics provide a false sense of objectivity.
Ahaha. R
On Sunday, Sep 21, 2003, at 17:22 Europe/Rome, Rodent of Unusual Size
wrote:
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
Ah, at the end, if a committer considers this unfair, maybe he/she
should question him/herself before questioning hundreds of his/her
peers.
Umm,
... and the "
On Sunday, Sep 21, 2003, at 14:50 Europe/Rome, Stephen McConnell wrote:
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
Ah, at the end, if a committer considers this unfair, maybe he/she
should question him/herself before questioning hundreds of his/her
peers.
Umm,
... and the "standard member line" gets ro
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, Sander Striker wrote:
> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:59:34 +0200
> From: Sander Striker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: ASF member role - accountable to whom
>
> > From: Tetsuya Kitahata [mai
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:25:35 -0400
Rodent of Unusual Size <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> the foundation *as a whole*. presumably you care about the welfare
> of japan, but don't know what's going in in kita-kyushu unless
> you live there. that doesn't invalidate your concern about the
> country o
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
i refuse to be sucked any further into one of your confusions.
It's good to see we agree!
Clearly "confusion" is a central topic that underlines that issues
addressed in this thread. Obviously I'm in good company as my confusion
pales into insignificance when
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> I'll "knock it off" when there are a sufficiently complete set of
> policies and procedures in place (i.e. documented and adopted) such that
> the need for Member status is clearly identified as the legal aspect of
> representation of the Foundation (and/or any othe
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
On Sunday, Sep 21, 2003, at 08:18 Europe/Rome, Steven Noels wrote:
... but not every PMC chair is a member (i.e. myself). Things can get
quite funny, that way. It seems like there's some cracks in the
Matrix.
It might look, admittedly, strange that an ASF officer is not
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
Stephen McConnell wrote:
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
Ah, at the end, if a committer considers this unfair, maybe he/she
should question him/herself before questioning hundreds of his/her peers.
Umm,
... and the "standard member line" gets roll
--
Andrew C. Oliver|acoliverapache.org |2003-08-22| 144|
Nicola Ken Barozzi |nicolakenapache.org|2003-09-19| 142|
Rodent of Unusual Si|coarapache.org |2003-09-21| 141|
Greg Stein |gsteinapache.org |2003-09-19|
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
>
> This is what I found it hard for me to comprehend.
>
> The current *members* are caring for the "entire" foundation,
> including the jakarta/xml/ws/cocoon/james/maven/ant/db, etc.. ?
the foundation *as a whole*. presumably you care about the welfare
of japan, but do
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> Ah, at the end, if a committer considers this unfair, maybe he/she
>> should question him/herself before questioning hundreds of his/her peers.
>
> Umm,
>
>... and the "standard member line" gets rolled out once again
>to
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> Statistics would not tell a lie. No prejudice, no favoritism.
Actually, in the USA we have a famous expression:
Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.
Statistics provide a false sense of objectivity.
--- Noel
> From: Tetsuya Kitahata [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 3:07 PM
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:28:06 +0200
> Stefano Mazzocchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > It might look, admittedly, strange that an ASF officer is not an ASF
> > member, but for the PMC chair role, the
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:28:06 +0200
Stefano Mazzocchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It might look, admittedly, strange that an ASF officer is not an ASF
> member, but for the PMC chair role, the person has been selected
> because he cares very much about one project: this doesn't make the
> pers
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
Ah, at the end, if a committer considers this unfair, maybe he/she
should question him/herself before questioning hundreds of his/her peers.
Umm,
... and the "standard member line" gets rolled out once again
to justify the absence of incubator documentation,
Berin Lautenbach wrote:
Stephen McConnell wrote:
If there is interest, I could try and re-word the content I put
together on the Sponsor responsibilities such that the role of
Sponsor is more oriented towards evangalist/champion, complementing
the role of Shepard.
Absolutely! The document
On Sunday, Sep 21, 2003, at 08:18 Europe/Rome, Steven Noels wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
As I understand what is being said, a project is to have a sponsor
who is an
ASF Member or Officer. Note that the Incubator PMC Chair is an ASF
Officer,
as is every PMC Chair.
... but not every PMC chair
On Sunday, Sep 21, 2003, at 05:40 Europe/Rome, Stephen McConnell wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Steven Noels wrote:
I just want to say that this requirement of sponsors which should be
members was totally unclear to me when I started talking and working
with the BEA peeps (Clif
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:30:37 +0200
(Subject: RE: ASF member role - accountable to whom)
"Sander Striker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > From: Tetsuya Kitahata [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 6:16 AM
>
> > I see. but here&#
On Sunday, Sep 21, 2003, at 06:15 Europe/Rome, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:25:53 -0400
Rodent of Unusual Size <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
"Meritocracy"?
yes, meritocracy. the entire asf is a meritocracy, as is each
project within it.
I see. but here's one
On Sunday, Sep 21, 2003, at 06:08 Europe/Rome, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:49:24 -0400
(Subject: RE: ASF member role - accountable to whom)
"Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Meritocracy"?
Here is a good stats on this ([EMAIL PROTECTED
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
>
> In such situation, (and I am embodin' cross-project participation)
> how can you measure *my* participation in the apache.org activities?
>
> ... This is really *what* I've wanted to know, because half of the
> *ASF members* are parcitipating "only" http.apache.org mai
Steven Noels wrote:
> Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>>
>> perfectly understandable, since it isn't official policy yet. there
>> *isn't* an official policy at the moment.
>
> ... which could hardly qualify things as being "by design".
'by design' in that specific proposal, which has not (yet :-
> From: Tetsuya Kitahata [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 12:47 PM
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:21:07 +0200
> "Sander Striker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Please, do not post stats of any kind to say something about merit.
>
> Okay, Sander. I will not. I promise.
;)
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:21:07 +0200
"Sander Striker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Please, do not post stats of any kind to say something about merit.
Okay, Sander. I will not. I promise.
By the way,
> Same for posts;
> it's quality and quantity. And stats don't measure quality.
How can you me
Stephen McConnell wrote:
If there is interest, I could try and re-word the content I put together
on the Sponsor responsibilities such that the role of Sponsor is more
oriented towards evangalist/champion, complementing the role of Shepard.
Absolutely! The document was put there as a seed to ge
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
Stephen McConnell wrote:
It would be really helpful if this page were included in the Home menu
on the Incuabator web site. Also helpful would be the inclusion of the
first link (roles and responsibilities) on the page concerning the
incubation process.
the wiki
> From: Tetsuya Kitahata [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 6:16 AM
> I see. but here's one question. Does this "meritocracy"
> encourage the inactive *ASF members* into the retirement status
> or hibernation status?
This is something for the ASF membership to worry abou
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 3:49 AM
>> "Meritocracy"?
>> Here is a good stats on this ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) mailing list.
>
> Excuse me, but volume of messages has nothing to do with merit. Roy T.
> Fielding posts very infrequently in my
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
I haven't read through your material, but unless I am wrong about what I
wrote last night, an ASF Officer also qualifies.
that seems eminently reasonable.
Ah. The crack in the Matrix widens. So I would have been able to
shepherd XMLBeans thr
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
As I understand what is being said, a project is to have a sponsor who is an
ASF Member or Officer. Note that the Incubator PMC Chair is an ASF Officer,
as is every PMC Chair.
... but not every PMC chair is a member (i.e. myself). Things can get
quite funny, that way. It s
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
Steven Noels wrote:
I just want to say that this requirement of sponsors which should be
members was totally unclear to me when I started talking and working
with the BEA peeps (Cliff Schmidt). So even if this was meant to be by
design, it wasn't very obvious from
Henri Yandell wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
> > I just want to say that this requirement of sponsors which should be
> > members was totally unclear to me when I started talking and working
> > with the BEA peeps (Cliff Schmidt). So even if this was meant to be by
> > design, it wasn't very obvious
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:25:53 -0400
Rodent of Unusual Size <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> >
> > "Meritocracy"?
> yes, meritocracy. the entire asf is a meritocracy, as is each
> project within it.
I see. but here's one question. Does this "meritocracy"
encourage the inact
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:49:24 -0400
(Subject: RE: ASF member role - accountable to whom)
"Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > "Meritocracy"?
> > Here is a good stats on this ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) mailing list.
> Excuse me, but volume
Henri Yandell wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Steven Noels wrote:
I just want to say that this requirement of sponsors which should be
members was totally unclear to me when I started talking and working
with the BEA peeps (Cliff Schmidt). So even if this was meant to be by
design, it wasn't ver
On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Steven Noels wrote:
> I just want to say that this requirement of sponsors which should be
> members was totally unclear to me when I started talking and working
> with the BEA peeps (Cliff Schmidt). So even if this was meant to be by
> design, it wasn't very obvious from th
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
>
> "Meritocracy"?
yes, meritocracy. the entire asf is a meritocracy, as is each
project within it.
> Here is a good stats on this ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) mailing list.
:
> Hope this helps :-)
not really, at least not for me, since i don't know what point
you're
> "Meritocracy"?
> Here is a good stats on this ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) mailing list.
Excuse me, but volume of messages has nothing to do with merit. Roy T.
Fielding posts very infrequently in my experience, but each of his messages
is worth reading. He has a way of cutting through reams of BS w
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:16:38 -0400
Rodent of Unusual Size <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> because they haven't yet *demonstrated* enough merit/understanding to
> be nominated for membership. or perhaps they've been nominated but
> declined to accept, which i think also means they don't believe enou
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> It would be really helpful if this page were included in the Home menu
> on the Incuabator web site. Also helpful would be the inclusion of the
> first link (roles and responsibilities) on the page concerning the
> incubation process.
the wiki pages are not author
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Stephen,
I haven't read through your material, but unless I am wrong about what I
wrote last night, an ASF Officer also qualifies.
Berin Lautenbach suggested gathering and collating material from this
discussion on the Wiki. Some related pages are:
http://nagoya.apache.o
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> I haven't read through your material, but unless I am wrong about what I
> wrote last night, an ASF Officer also qualifies.
that seems eminently reasonable.
--
#kenP-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist ht
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> Are there any Sponsor reponsibilities that I am missing here?
i think that participation in the incubator pmc, particularly
during these formative times, would be very valuable. it would
keep the sponsor informed of the developing policies and procedures,
and conver
Steven Noels wrote:
>
> I just want to say that this requirement of sponsors which should be
> members was totally unclear to me when I started talking and working
> with the BEA peeps (Cliff Schmidt). So even if this was meant to be by
> design, it wasn't very obvious from the information avai
Stephen,
I haven't read through your material, but unless I am wrong about what I
wrote last night, an ASF Officer also qualifies.
Berin Lautenbach suggested gathering and collating material from this
discussion on the Wiki. Some related pages are:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
For example, if a Member undertakes such a
resonsibility, to whom is the member responsible and what would be the
scope of such a responsibility?
to the podling and the incubator pmc, to see that everything gets
done and done properly. similarly to the found
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
Stephen McConnell wrote:
I am specific asking this in the context of the incubator policies. If
I understand correctly, the policies require project sponsorship by a
member and from what member only sheparding. While parhaps with best
intent - it is excluding non-
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> The words "the sponsor should take responsibility" is something I agree
> with and is the first tangible link to a rationale between sponsor and
> Member that I have seen so far.
then i think we have been having a significant disconnect. i think the
link has been v
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
What is the Incubator's purpose? What I am told from multiple sources (I
have asked about this out of interest), is that the Incubator is to be used
whenever a substantial codebase (a sub-project) is brought in from outside
the ASF, regardless of whether it is going to be
Stephen,
The following is synthesized from numerous conversations, messages, etc. It
represents my understanding. Hopefully, if I have gotten any aspects wrong,
someone will correct it (and me).
Please put this in context. There have been questions as to what criteria
should exist for incubati
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>>
>>correct and by design. part of the purpose of the incubator is to
>>make sure new projects fit into our technical and cultural framework.
>>assigning the mentoring process to a member, who has become a member
>>by virtue of demonstratin
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
Stephen McConnell wrote:
I am specific asking this in the context of the incubator policies. If
I understand correctly, the policies require project sponsorship by a
member and from what member only sheparding. While parhaps with best
intent - it is excluding n
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> Given a policy that equates to an exclusion of Apache
> contributors - they needs to be some form of accountability by members
> towards non-members on matters concerning incubation.
i forgot to add: this is not a democracy. it is a meritocracy.
--
#kenP-)}
K
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> I am specific asking this in the context of the incubator policies. If
> I understand correctly, the policies require project sponsorship by a
> member and from what member only sheparding. While parhaps with best
> intent - it is excluding non-members from sponsor
... and, to whom is the ASF Member accountable?
In all contexts, to himself/herself, but if you mean in terms of ASF related
behavior, that would be governed by our Bylaws and policies. To imply that
ASF Members are not accountable would be a horrid stretch.
I am specific asking this in the
>>>ASF Member status continues to maintain a certain club quality
>>>within which privaliges ebb-and-flow toi sute the moment).
>
>>Huh?
>>
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]&msg
No=2002
>
> I want you to think of two societies (a) a small society that
> establishes a board which
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
ASF Member status continues to maintain a certain club quality
within which privaliges ebb-and-flow toi sute the moment).
Huh?
I want you to think of two societies (a) a small society that
establishes a board which creates the notion of membership by invitation
which in
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