I'd like to suggest we all take a breath and step back from the cliff. I have seen many attempts to understand the points of view of others on this list. But I've also seen attempts at humor to be totally misinterpreted. I'm thinking that humor isn't really a good idea here. One person's joke will often offend others. Oh wait, that is so true and often deliberate.
So let's try to avoid jokes/humor/light banter here. Unless you are really sure the humor will be understood by everyone and taken positively. Does this mean we can't have a little fun? Maybe. Remember that one person's joke may be another person's hot button. When someone says "maybe I'm the problem" we should take that as a serious attempt to understand that sometimes they are the problem. But then I think that RTFM is not a good answer to a serious question. I'd also suggest reading anything you compose to be sure that it really conveys what you want it to. And wait 10 minutes before pressing the send button. And avoid inventing minorities. We don't do that here. It is really hard to overcome unconscious bias. Even when it is explicitly stated as a goal. Even when you work hard at it. Even when you are called on it it may be difficult to see in yourself. So let's give everyone a chance to come here and try to understand what we're trying to do, even if it becomes repetitive. Over and over. Because that is what it will take. I may ramble more later, but I need to put this aside for a while to be sure I can stand behind everything I wrote. Craig > On May 10, 2019, at 4:42 PM, Ross Gardler > <ross.gard...@microsoft.com.INVALID> wrote: > > Naomi, plenty of people were on the thread, you called out the behavior, we > aren't going to pile on. You will note, however, that I I posted the first > reply and tried to call our the bias in the individuals initial mail. It is > unfair to claim I'm somehow singling you out. I am *not* singling you out. I > am merely someone brave/stupid enough to call out that it is not just people > who identify as a majority participant that contribute to a lack of > inclusivity. Normally I would let it slide, but for this initiative on this > list to succeed we all have to assume that anyone coming here has good > intentions. We have to listen and we have to reason. We might just manage to > sew a seed, we might even create a new champion for D&I. But, if we drive > them away with whipmarks across their backs we don't move forwards. > > Think about this, on this list I am in the minority. It is hard for me, and > people like me here. I know I'm going to mess up. Don't punish me for it. > Don't assume the worst. I'm getting hammered from both sides for trying to do > what *you* are telling me is the best way to get results. Do you really want > to drive everyone like me away or do you want to take the opportunity to help > me help you? > > Ross > > ________________________________ > From: Naomi Slater <n...@tumbolia.org> > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2019 4:21 PM > To: diversity@apache.org > Subject: Re: Diversity in a diverse world > > Ross, > > Geertjan’s “humor” was racist, transsexist, and disrespectful. mine was > deserved, after a long thread of him engaging in bad faith. so no, they are > not comparable and my joke was certainly not “as” unnecessary/unhelpful > > frankly, I am sororities you can’t discern the difference here > > and once again you have chosen to admonished *me* on list instead of the > people who are clearly trolling, engaging in bad faith, or otherwise trying > to frustrate our efforts > > On Sat 11. May 2019 at 01:17, Ross Gardler > <ross.gard...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote: > >> Naomi, >> >> That is as unnecessary and as unhelpful as the "humor" you (rightly) >> pulled Geertjan up on earlier. Lets hold everyone to the same standard. >> >> Ross >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Naomi Slater <n...@tumbolia.org> >> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2019 3:30 PM >> To: diversity@apache.org >> Subject: Re: Diversity in a diverse world >> >> productive thread after all >> >> On Sat 11. May 2019 at 00:28, Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> >> wrote: >> >>> While you all struggle to figure out how unconscious bias works in >> relation >>> to trans women in on-line communities where no one has a clue about >> whether >>> someone is a trans woman, I'm now actually physically going to >> unsubscribe >>> from this mailing list. >>> >>> Gj >>> >>> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 12:02 AM Shane Curcuru <a...@shanecurcuru.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Mark Thomas wrote on 5/10/19 4:22 PM: >>>>> On 10/05/2019 20:55, Geertjan Wielenga wrote: >>>>>> Yes, I have a lot to learn — for example, I don’t know nor care >> about >>>> the >>>>>> sexual or gender orientation of anyone in the Apache community where >>> I’m >>>>>> focused on: Apache NetBeans. >>>>>> >>>>>> Can you simply explain why any of this matters, when I cannot >> possibly >>>>>> discriminate against anyone’s sexual or gender orientation since >> code >>>> and >>>>>> coding do not reflect or express these orientations in any way >>>> >>>> True, but code is not the most important question: community is. It's >> a >>>> cornerstone of the Apache Way, and is both a widely used catchphrase >>>> across the ASF as well as being specifically documented: >>>> >>>> >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.apache.org%2Ftheapacheway%2Findex.html&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C2bdb7b76308d43936afb08d6d59e37e6%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=l3Jy3DnVLkH717CH9g60YmrBzbqWqhtGOokBi7%2FbWo4%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>>> If all contributions at the ASF were anonymous that would be true. >> But >>>>> they are not. >>>> >>>> Project communities are made of of people. Long-term project longevity >>>> relies on attracting new people to contribute to our projects: yes, >> they >>>> bring code, but they also improve the community. >>>> >>>>> A couple of things to consider: >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Ftechnology%2F2016%2Ffeb%2F12%2Fwomen-considered-better-coders-hide-gender-github&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C2bdb7b76308d43936afb08d6d59e37e6%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=tYJyRiy7FHu8OrwnnBMatIiigJNjLG1u0C4oJFZnQNE%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> The underlying study from 2016 is thorough and has disappointing data: >>>> >>>> >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpeerj.com%2Farticles%2Fcs-111%2F&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C2bdb7b76308d43936afb08d6d59e37e6%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=t14b0Xanif3aMS1ehm14nrS%2BVx1gEI39OLE3UfTiFSw%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>>> Google "Unconscious bias" >>>> >>>> A great Monktoberfest conference talk addressed this very same issue - >>>> in a small scale, but with some very specific results: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DoJ17en7-MwY%26list%3DPLvsKqlNNP3R8HobEa53Noe7xcDJFg0dop%26index%3D5&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C2bdb7b76308d43936afb08d6d59e37e6%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=m3ES9fb5L0vFjdpT6pB7rFZbRkPu%2BOMCZfWOG2bE5AA%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> ...snip... >>>>> I don't want anyone to feel unwelcome at the ASF. If there are >> things I >>>>> can do to make other people feel more welcome then I want to find out >>>>> about them. >>>> >>>> Bonus Monktoberfest talk I found useful: Better Living Through Empathy >>>> >>>> >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DqcpVs-7d6Ys&data=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C2bdb7b76308d43936afb08d6d59e37e6%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1&sdata=19ZI5oOW3LtXtWf0tzfvABTzXR0RIwHxD1UgiQRr%2B2A%3D&reserved=0 >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> - Shane >>>> Member >>>> The Apache Software Foundation >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org >>>> >>>> >>> >> Craig L Russell c...@apache.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
