On Sat, 11 May 2019 at 01:43, Ross Gardler <ross.gard...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
> You will note, however, that I I posted the first reply and tried to call > our the bias in the individuals initial mail. It is unfair to claim I'm > somehow singling you out. I am *not* singling you out. sure, you have responded to people challenging them on their arguments. but you specifically chose to criticize my behavior/conduct/tone. that's something you did on the original thread on dev@community which spawned the diversity@ mailing list the numerous threads the past month or so have been in no shortage of people who are being a nuisance. but for some reason, it seems like you only want to say something when I lose my patience or sound annoyed I am merely someone brave/stupid enough to call out that it is not just > people who identify as a majority participant that contribute to a lack of > inclusivity. are you accusing me of harming inclusivity because I don't want to tolerate assholes on this list? (a list that is bound to continue attracting assholes). that's not the sort of inclusivity I care about Normally I would let it slide, but for this initiative on this list to > succeed we all have to assume that anyone coming here has good intentions. > We have to listen and we have to reason. strong disagree. we don't have to do any of those things *having* to assume good intentions, *having* to listen, and *having* to reason with people is a going to give trolls and assholes everything they need to bring this initiative to a grinding halt the whole purpose of spinning this off into a president's committee was, as far as I understand it, to establish our charter formally, so as to let us just get on with the work. this isn't going to be the list where entertain "innocent" concern trolling, endlessly debate whether D&I is valuable, or respond to demands for education, or "reason" with people "just" wanting to "play devil's advocate" or "debate the issues" with us We might just manage to sew a seed, we might even create a new champion for > D&I. this is an anti-pattern it is extremely common for people doing this sort of work to be told that it is their responsibility to educate and inspire and convince. but I am sorry to tell you that it is a losing battle. you can be as polite and as patient and as helpful as you want. an asshole is going to continue being an asshole and they are going to suck up all your time and energy and emotions people who come to this list because they're genuinely curious, or because they want to help out are more than welcome. but I can tell you right now that those people will not come to this list with a bunch of concern troll bullshit to introduce themselves this may surprise you, but after more practice with this stuff than I care to even quantify, I have learned to tell the difference between a concern troll and someone who is earnest in wanting to help But, if we drive them away with whipmarks across their backs we don't move > forwards I would prefer it if you didn't characterize me taking a quick jab at a troll as me "driving" "them" (potential contributors) away with a whip I want to point this out again: this person literally ridiculed trans people on the list, to my face (effectively). setting me, and people like me, up as some sort of punchline to an implied joke about "special snowflakes". (this was an instance of cissexism btw, not "transsexism". it's late here, and I'm tired). in response to this, I took a quick jab at him as he emoquit the list I don't understand how you can equate these two things as equally "problematic". nor can I understand why you think that being a bit mean to trolls is some sort of existential threat to this nascent effort we are going to get a lot of trolls on this list. I don't intend to suffer them politely I think it would be a good idea for you to consider the power dynamics of the situation on this thread. and of subsequent threads. the troll and I might've both said something hurtful. but which hurtful thing leveraged a position of power and contributed to some preexisting injury I know I'm going to mess up. Don't punish me for it. Don't assume the worst. I don't expect you to be perfect. I'm not going to punish you. I haven't assumed anything about you. I know you want to help. I don't think you're a troll. I haven't seen you do anything that would make me want to take a jab please have a little faith in me that I am able to discern between a troll or an asshole and someone who made a mistake I'm getting hammered from both sides for trying to do what *you* are > telling me is the best way to get results. Do you really want to drive > everyone like me away or do you want to take the opportunity to help me > help you? I am confused. I haven't told you that you should be moderating the list. and if we were to have that convo, I would suggest that you direct it at the trolls, not the marginalized people who are justifiably upset by the presence of trolls I don't want to drive people like *you* away. and I am surprised that you are implicitly equating yourself with the troll we had on this thread I do, on the other hand, want to drive trolls away. aggressively. if there's any mailing list at this organization which should have a zero tolerance approach to trolling of any kind, it is this one
