None of those are in any way ancillary. Bye. That’s it for me here.
Gj On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 22:03, Naomi Slater <n...@tumbolia.org> wrote: > I’m not going to educate you. you can do that yourself. this stuff has been > discussed again and again and again > > one of the gendered power dynamics is at play in your email. your > assumption that my contributions are code (because that’s all that matters, > right?. did you know that most women in tech get shunted off into ancillary > roles like docs, marketing, PR, etc? > > Apache is a community of PEOPLE interacting with one another. not a > community of changesets. I suggest you start your thinking there > > On Fri 10. May 2019 at 21:55, Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > Yes, I have a lot to learn — for example, I don’t know nor care about the > > sexual or gender orientation of anyone in the Apache community where I’m > > focused on: Apache NetBeans. > > > > Can you simply explain why any of this matters, when I cannot possibly > > discriminate against anyone’s sexual or gender orientation since code and > > coding do not reflect or express these orientations in any way — and bear > > in mind you and I are participating in massive cultural appropriation by > > being in an organization called “Apache”. :-) > > > > I am waiting for Apache indians to complain but they are not. And neither > > should you. Code, like maths, like numbers, are outside these > discussions. > > > > Please teach me how your being a trans woman has any impact on the code > you > > write or contribute. Where are the gendered power dynamics, yes, maybe I > am > > part of the problem — so please show me where and how. > > > > Gj > > > > On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 19:27, Naomi Slater <n...@tumbolia.org> wrote: > > > > > as a trans woman, I can tell you that I have struggled because of my > > > experiences of gendered power dynamics at this organization > > > > > > "transgender African Eskimo" sounds like it's meant to be a > > > ridiculous/comical example. if you want to make this list feel > welcoming, > > > you can start by not turning marginalized identities into a throwaway > > joke > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 18:19, Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > It's a cluster of topics, i.e., if we're talking about safe spaces > > (which > > > > we are, that was explicitly stated), then we're also in the area of > > > > micoaggressions and trigger warnings. We're going to need to sit down > > and > > > > think about what behavior we're already displaying that conforms to > the > > > > definition of microaggression and what kinds of clause we should > state > > up > > > > front before saying something that might be hurtful to the listener > > based > > > > on their suffering and injustice in the past (or present). > > > > > > > > Again, I'm not against any of these things, I just wonder whether > we're > > > not > > > > using tools and asking questions that may not be relevant at all. > I.e., > > > > beyond the "from personal experience, I believe there is a problem" > and > > > the > > > > journey we're now starting to articulate a problem, etc, I just don't > > see > > > > what we're trying to achieve, at all. > > > > > > > > It's really diversity for the sake of diversity and the fact that a > > > project > > > > has a high dominance of one category or another is in itself a reason > > to > > > > ask why that is and how to fix that. I just don't see the problem and > > > that, > > > > of course, is exactly the problem, because I'm male and so on and so > > on. > > > We > > > > do need to find out whether people are not comfortable participating > in > > > > Apache projects and why -- and my guess is it has if anything to do > > with > > > > language barriers and personality aspects (e.g., being shy or not > > > > sufficiently expressive) and a feeling that one isn't skilled enough, > > not > > > > whether one is a transgender African Eskimo, or something. > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 6:04 PM Alex Harui <aha...@adobe.com.invalid > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think I understand how microaggressions relate to this topic, > but I > > > > > don't understand how "trigger warnings" relate. Can someone > explain? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > -Alex > > > > > > > > > > On 5/9/19, 12:28 PM, "Geertjan Wielenga" <geert...@apache.org> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I'm not assuming at all that a hijab signifies sexism. Though > I'm > > > > also > > > > > not > > > > > assuming that if every single woman in the world were to deny > > that > > > a > > > > > hijab > > > > > does not signify sexism that therefore a hijab does not signify > > > > > sexism. (I > > > > > have noted though that not one single man wears a hijab, but > > let's > > > > > leave > > > > > the hijab discussion, that's not the point but an > illustration.) > > > > > > > > > > The problems "there" are actually "here". I.e., when we're > > talking > > > > > diversity, we're I think inevitably going to be talking > creating > > > safe > > > > > spaces, which means, as well, trigger warnings and > > > microaggressions. > > > > > All of > > > > > which are important and should be addressed. > > > > > > > > > > I think my point is that we don't really have a global language > > of > > > > > inclusivity -- and sure everyone should feel welcome at > > conferences > > > > > and so > > > > > on. But if we're going to be trying to figure out what > blockages > > > > there > > > > > are > > > > > in the participation of contributors based on the subcategories > > of > > > > > identification to which they subscribe voluntarily or by birth > -- > > > > where > > > > > does it end? I'm uncomfortable with the survey, to be honest. > > > Though > > > > of > > > > > course it's important to do our best to ensure that everyone > > feels > > > > > comfortable to contribute regardless of the various identities > > they > > > > > hold. > > > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:18 PM Ross Gardler > > > > > <ross.gard...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > It is very complicated. For example, your assumption that the > > > Hijab > > > > > > signifies sexism is contested by every single woman I have > > known > > > > who > > > > > wears > > > > > > one (which admittedly is a low number and not at all > > > representative > > > > > of the > > > > > > bigger picture). > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, there are problems everywhere. We can't solve the > > > > problems > > > > > > there, it's not our place to. But we can solve our problems > > here > > > in > > > > > the ASF. > > > > > > > > > > > > For example, if a woman is attending an ASF event in a Hijab > > and > > > we > > > > > assume > > > > > > she is wearing it because of inequality in her culture then > we > > > are > > > > > not > > > > > > creating a welcoming environment. We are creating barriers > > > between > > > > > her and > > > > > > us because of assumptions based on what our own culture > teaches > > > us. > > > > > In my > > > > > > (admittedly limited) experience such a woman is likely > wearing > > > the > > > > > Hajib > > > > > > because she chooses to do so and we should respect her right > to > > > > make > > > > > that > > > > > > choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > If it's not a choice for her then it's not something that we > > can > > > > > directly > > > > > > influence but we can still make her welcome within our > > community. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ross > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 11:27 AM > > > > > > To: diversity@apache.org > > > > > > Subject: Diversity in a diverse world > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > Just a trigger warning here -- I was in Riyadh in Saudi > Arabia > > > > last > > > > > week, > > > > > > giving a course in which Apache NetBeans was used. There > were 8 > > > > > people on > > > > > > the course, three of which were women completely covered in > > black > > > > > hijabs > > > > > > with only their eyes showing. I do think safe spaces, > > > > > microaggressions, and > > > > > > trigger warnings are very important -- but in an ecosystem > > where > > > > > there are > > > > > > literally women in the back of the classroom with only their > > eyes > > > > > showing, > > > > > > it seems complicated to address this diversity topic at all, > > > unless > > > > > we're > > > > > > not concerned about the diversity issues connected to > > > superiority, > > > > > > colonialism, and ethnocentrism, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > And... a year ago those three women would not have been in a > > > > > computer class > > > > > > at all, so the fact that they were even in the room was a > sign > > of > > > > > massive > > > > > > progress. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just want to raise this because what some might see as > > diversity > > > > > could be > > > > > > pretty problematic in a global context -- unless we're > > > comfortable, > > > > > or at > > > > > > least very prepared, to deal with the fall out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
