I’m not going to educate you. you can do that yourself. this stuff has been discussed again and again and again
one of the gendered power dynamics is at play in your email. your assumption that my contributions are code (because that’s all that matters, right?. did you know that most women in tech get shunted off into ancillary roles like docs, marketing, PR, etc? Apache is a community of PEOPLE interacting with one another. not a community of changesets. I suggest you start your thinking there On Fri 10. May 2019 at 21:55, Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> wrote: > Yes, I have a lot to learn — for example, I don’t know nor care about the > sexual or gender orientation of anyone in the Apache community where I’m > focused on: Apache NetBeans. > > Can you simply explain why any of this matters, when I cannot possibly > discriminate against anyone’s sexual or gender orientation since code and > coding do not reflect or express these orientations in any way — and bear > in mind you and I are participating in massive cultural appropriation by > being in an organization called “Apache”. :-) > > I am waiting for Apache indians to complain but they are not. And neither > should you. Code, like maths, like numbers, are outside these discussions. > > Please teach me how your being a trans woman has any impact on the code you > write or contribute. Where are the gendered power dynamics, yes, maybe I am > part of the problem — so please show me where and how. > > Gj > > On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 19:27, Naomi Slater <n...@tumbolia.org> wrote: > > > as a trans woman, I can tell you that I have struggled because of my > > experiences of gendered power dynamics at this organization > > > > "transgender African Eskimo" sounds like it's meant to be a > > ridiculous/comical example. if you want to make this list feel welcoming, > > you can start by not turning marginalized identities into a throwaway > joke > > > > > > > > On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 18:19, Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> > > wrote: > > > > > It's a cluster of topics, i.e., if we're talking about safe spaces > (which > > > we are, that was explicitly stated), then we're also in the area of > > > micoaggressions and trigger warnings. We're going to need to sit down > and > > > think about what behavior we're already displaying that conforms to the > > > definition of microaggression and what kinds of clause we should state > up > > > front before saying something that might be hurtful to the listener > based > > > on their suffering and injustice in the past (or present). > > > > > > Again, I'm not against any of these things, I just wonder whether we're > > not > > > using tools and asking questions that may not be relevant at all. I.e., > > > beyond the "from personal experience, I believe there is a problem" and > > the > > > journey we're now starting to articulate a problem, etc, I just don't > see > > > what we're trying to achieve, at all. > > > > > > It's really diversity for the sake of diversity and the fact that a > > project > > > has a high dominance of one category or another is in itself a reason > to > > > ask why that is and how to fix that. I just don't see the problem and > > that, > > > of course, is exactly the problem, because I'm male and so on and so > on. > > We > > > do need to find out whether people are not comfortable participating in > > > Apache projects and why -- and my guess is it has if anything to do > with > > > language barriers and personality aspects (e.g., being shy or not > > > sufficiently expressive) and a feeling that one isn't skilled enough, > not > > > whether one is a transgender African Eskimo, or something. > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 6:04 PM Alex Harui <aha...@adobe.com.invalid> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I think I understand how microaggressions relate to this topic, but I > > > > don't understand how "trigger warnings" relate. Can someone explain? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Alex > > > > > > > > On 5/9/19, 12:28 PM, "Geertjan Wielenga" <geert...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm not assuming at all that a hijab signifies sexism. Though I'm > > > also > > > > not > > > > assuming that if every single woman in the world were to deny > that > > a > > > > hijab > > > > does not signify sexism that therefore a hijab does not signify > > > > sexism. (I > > > > have noted though that not one single man wears a hijab, but > let's > > > > leave > > > > the hijab discussion, that's not the point but an illustration.) > > > > > > > > The problems "there" are actually "here". I.e., when we're > talking > > > > diversity, we're I think inevitably going to be talking creating > > safe > > > > spaces, which means, as well, trigger warnings and > > microaggressions. > > > > All of > > > > which are important and should be addressed. > > > > > > > > I think my point is that we don't really have a global language > of > > > > inclusivity -- and sure everyone should feel welcome at > conferences > > > > and so > > > > on. But if we're going to be trying to figure out what blockages > > > there > > > > are > > > > in the participation of contributors based on the subcategories > of > > > > identification to which they subscribe voluntarily or by birth -- > > > where > > > > does it end? I'm uncomfortable with the survey, to be honest. > > Though > > > of > > > > course it's important to do our best to ensure that everyone > feels > > > > comfortable to contribute regardless of the various identities > they > > > > hold. > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 9:18 PM Ross Gardler > > > > <ross.gard...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote: > > > > > > > > > It is very complicated. For example, your assumption that the > > Hijab > > > > > signifies sexism is contested by every single woman I have > known > > > who > > > > wears > > > > > one (which admittedly is a low number and not at all > > representative > > > > of the > > > > > bigger picture). > > > > > > > > > > That said, there are problems everywhere. We can't solve the > > > problems > > > > > there, it's not our place to. But we can solve our problems > here > > in > > > > the ASF. > > > > > > > > > > For example, if a woman is attending an ASF event in a Hijab > and > > we > > > > assume > > > > > she is wearing it because of inequality in her culture then we > > are > > > > not > > > > > creating a welcoming environment. We are creating barriers > > between > > > > her and > > > > > us because of assumptions based on what our own culture teaches > > us. > > > > In my > > > > > (admittedly limited) experience such a woman is likely wearing > > the > > > > Hajib > > > > > because she chooses to do so and we should respect her right to > > > make > > > > that > > > > > choice. > > > > > > > > > > If it's not a choice for her then it's not something that we > can > > > > directly > > > > > influence but we can still make her welcome within our > community. > > > > > > > > > > Ross > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Geertjan Wielenga <geert...@apache.org> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2019 11:27 AM > > > > > To: diversity@apache.org > > > > > Subject: Diversity in a diverse world > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > Just a trigger warning here -- I was in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia > > > last > > > > week, > > > > > giving a course in which Apache NetBeans was used. There were 8 > > > > people on > > > > > the course, three of which were women completely covered in > black > > > > hijabs > > > > > with only their eyes showing. I do think safe spaces, > > > > microaggressions, and > > > > > trigger warnings are very important -- but in an ecosystem > where > > > > there are > > > > > literally women in the back of the classroom with only their > eyes > > > > showing, > > > > > it seems complicated to address this diversity topic at all, > > unless > > > > we're > > > > > not concerned about the diversity issues connected to > > superiority, > > > > > colonialism, and ethnocentrism, etc. > > > > > > > > > > And... a year ago those three women would not have been in a > > > > computer class > > > > > at all, so the fact that they were even in the room was a sign > of > > > > massive > > > > > progress. > > > > > > > > > > Just want to raise this because what some might see as > diversity > > > > could be > > > > > pretty problematic in a global context -- unless we're > > comfortable, > > > > or at > > > > > least very prepared, to deal with the fall out. > > > > > > > > > > Gj > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
