Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Szymon Lipiński wrote: > > > Strangely I have never had a problem testing stored procedures. You have >> to create a data set for the tests of course and that is the hardest part, >> but there are some really nice things: >> >> 1. If your test scripts always ro

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 21 May 2016 at 11:28, Chris Travers wrote: > > > On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Guyren Howe wrote: > >> On May 20, 2016, at 13:38 , Pierre Chevalier Géologue < >> pierrechevalierg...@free.fr> wrote: >> > >> > Le 04/05/2016 18:29, Szymon Lipiński a écrit : >> >> On the other hand, when I wa

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Guyren Howe wrote: > On May 20, 2016, at 13:38 , Pierre Chevalier Géologue < > pierrechevalierg...@free.fr> wrote: > > > > Le 04/05/2016 18:29, Szymon Lipiński a écrit : > >> On the other hand, when I was trying to store all my logic in a > >> database, there was

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 20 May 2016 at 22:43, Guyren Howe wrote: > On May 20, 2016, at 13:38 , Pierre Chevalier Géologue < > pierrechevalierg...@free.fr> wrote: > > > > Le 04/05/2016 18:29, Szymon Lipiński a écrit : > >> On the other hand, when I was trying to store all my logic in a > >> database, there was just one

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 21 May 2016 at 00:08, Steve Atkins wrote: > > > On May 20, 2016, at 1:43 PM, Guyren Howe wrote: > > > > On May 20, 2016, at 13:38 , Pierre Chevalier Géologue < > pierrechevalierg...@free.fr> wrote: > >> > >> Le 04/05/2016 18:29, Szymon Lipiński a écrit : > >>> On the other hand, when I was tr

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

> On May 20, 2016, at 1:43 PM, Guyren Howe wrote: > > On May 20, 2016, at 13:38 , Pierre Chevalier Géologue > wrote: >> >> Le 04/05/2016 18:29, Szymon Lipiński a écrit : >>> On the other hand, when I was trying to store all my logic in a >>> database, there was just one thing that made me hat

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Interesting conversation. While reading it, I sort of regret the times when a single guy was in charge of the whole thing, and managed to simply make it work, using all possible tools he had. "Informaticien" was the generic term, in French. Every single part of the big thing he built (hardwa

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On May 20, 2016, at 13:38 , Pierre Chevalier Géologue wrote: > > Le 04/05/2016 18:29, Szymon Lipiński a écrit : >> On the other hand, when I was trying to store all my logic in a >> database, there was just one thing that made me hate it. Testing. >> Testing the procedures inside the database wa

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Le 04/05/2016 18:29, Szymon Lipiński a écrit : On the other hand, when I was trying to store all my logic in a database, there was just one thing that made me hate it. Testing. Testing the procedures inside the database was not easy, not funny, and too much time consuming. Yes, very good point.

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 5/18/2016 11:05 AM, Pierre Chevalier Géologue wrote: Yes, that's it, in a way. Although designing forms is not what I would call AD (application development)... When you look back at dBase III or IV, the text user interface which allowed to interact with the data was very simple, and effic

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Interesting point of view. Time to make a bug report, isn't it? ;-) À+ Pierre Le 18/05/2016 17:44, Adam Brusselback a écrit : On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Raymond O'Donnellmailto:r...@iol.ie>> wrote: Having said all that, I've rarely had any trouble with pgAdmin 3 on Windows 7 and

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Le 17/05/2016 11:25, Geoff Winkless a écrit : but they are still looking for a sort of Holy Grail that would definitely convince them. A standard client tool that would come with any PostgreSQL installation would please them. Some sort of psqlGUI, I guess. Why reinvent the wheel? I would say

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Hi, Le 17/05/2016 10:44, John R Pierce a écrit : On 5/17/2016 1:34 AM, Pierre Chevalier Géologue wrote: On this matter, I hear *very* often from such guys that the only reproach they have to PostgreSQL is that it does not come with a slick GUI like Access. Access is a lot more than a slick G

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016, Adam Brusselback wrote: > > On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Raymond O'Donnell > wrote: > >> > Having said all that, I've rarely had any trouble with pgAdmin 3 on > >> > Windows 7 and XP, Ubuntu and Debian; just a very occasional crash (maybe > >> > one every six mont

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Raymond O'Donnell wrote: > > Having said all that, I've rarely had any trouble with pgAdmin 3 on > > Windows 7 and XP, Ubuntu and Debian; just a very occasional crash (maybe > > one every six months). So just to chime in, it has not been at all that stable fo

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 17/05/2016 20:38, Guyren Howe wrote: On May 17, 2016, at 2:22 , Achilleas Mantzios wrote: Sorry if I missed something but what's wrong with pgadmin3 ? Apart from it's awful, clunky, bug-ridden and crash prone, nothing. There is a solution for that : either find the bugs and submit patche

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 17/05/2016 18:38, Guyren Howe wrote: > On May 17, 2016, at 2:22 , Achilleas Mantzios > wrote: >> >> Sorry if I missed something but what's wrong with pgadmin3 ? > > Apart from it's awful, clunky, bug-ridden and crash prone, nothing. In fairness to pgAdmin 3: - It's not a development platfor

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On May 17, 2016, at 2:22 , Achilleas Mantzios wrote: > > Sorry if I missed something but what's wrong with pgadmin3 ? Apart from it's awful, clunky, bug-ridden and crash prone, nothing. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscriptio

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 17 May 2016 at 10:22, Achilleas Mantzios wrote: > On 17/05/2016 12:16, Geoff Winkless wrote: >> >> On 17 May 2016 at 09:34, Pierre Chevalier Géologue >> wrote: >>> >>> On this matter, I hear *very* often from such guys that the only reproach >>> they have to PostgreSQL is that it does not come

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 17/05/2016 12:16, Geoff Winkless wrote: On 17 May 2016 at 09:34, Pierre Chevalier Géologue wrote: On this matter, I hear *very* often from such guys that the only reproach they have to PostgreSQL is that it does not come with a slick GUI like Access. PGAdmin does not suit their needs at all

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 17 May 2016 at 09:34, Pierre Chevalier Géologue wrote: > On this matter, I hear *very* often from such guys that the only reproach > they have to PostgreSQL is that it does not come with a slick GUI like > Access. PGAdmin does not suit their needs at all: they want to design their > forms, dir

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 5/17/2016 1:34 AM, Pierre Chevalier Géologue wrote: On this matter, I hear *very* often from such guys that the only reproach they have to PostgreSQL is that it does not come with a slick GUI like Access. Access is a lot more than a slick GUI, its a rapid application development system b

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Hi, Le 04/05/2016 17:55, Alban Hertroys a écrit : On 4 May 2016 at 17:08, John McKown wrote: I had a manager, long ago, who used a Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet to contain all his memos. I was glassy eyed in disbelief. He also would use his hand calculator to add up the numbers in the spreadsheet to

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Hello, (sorry for delay, I've been traveling) Le 04/05/2016 17:08, John McKown a écrit : ... ​Allowing PHBs direct access t​o company data is a nasty thing. Sorry, what is a PHB? Our friend google didn't help me much on this matter. ​Ah. Sorry. PHB is a "Pointy Haired Boss

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

>What might I cover that I haven't mentioned? >What are the usual objections to server-side code and how can they be met? >When *are* they justified and what should the criteria be to put code in >Postgres? Any other thoughts? Hi, For my point of view, scalability considerations and possible pe

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 04/05/2016 15:55, Szymon Lipiński wrote: at my previous jobs I was working with many programmers, and almost none of them understood SQL. The problem was even deeper. They didn't want to learn it. When I was working among java programmers, I noticed that they hated SQL, but there was no prob

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Thu, May 5, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Vincent Veyron wrote: > I like this quote from Fred Brooks : > > `Show me your code and conceal your data structures, and I shall continue to > be mystified. Show me your data structures, and I won't usually need your > code; it'll be obvious.' I remembered it a

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 4 May 2016 at 23:52, Kus wrote: > > > On May 4, 2016 4:56:23 PM EDT, Andrew Sullivan > wrote: > >I think there's something that we're going to have to accept, however, > >and that's that there are way more application coders than there are > >people who really get database systems. Fixing th

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Tue, 3 May 2016 23:11:06 -0500, Guyren Howe wrote: >I've long been frustrated with how most web developers I meet >have no idea how to use an SQL database properly. I think I'm >going to write a book called Love Your Database, aimed at web >developers, that explains how to make their apps be

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

From: pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sofen I disagree. I’ve worked as database architect/engineer at a number of large and small firms in various verticals (healthcare, financials, insurance, aerospace, telecom, etc), and crea

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

From: dandlSent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 5:05 PM To: 'Pierre Chevalier Géologue' > From: Pierre Chevalier Géologue [ > mailto:pierrechevalierg...@free.fr] > ... > > Then I think you've seriously misunderstood. Most people can indeed > >learn to writ

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

>From: Vincent Veyron Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 3:35 PM >I write management applications for businesses, and give _a lot_ of care to the database structure. >I find that the number of lines of code that need to be written is strictly inversely correlated to the >appropriateness of the data

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

> From: Pierre Chevalier Géologue [mailto:pierrechevalierg...@free.fr] > ... > > Then I think you've seriously misunderstood. Most people can indeed > >learn to write basic SQL queries, but those are > >(obviously) not what I'm talking about. > > > > To write the business logic of a significant app

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Tue, 3 May 2016 23:11:06 -0500 Guyren Howe wrote: > Any other thoughts? I like this quote from Fred Brooks : `Show me your code and conceal your data structures, and I shall continue to be mystified. Show me your data structures, and I won't usually need your code; it'll be obvious.' It

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On May 4, 2016 4:56:23 PM EDT, Andrew Sullivan wrote: >I think there's something that we're going to have to accept, however, >and that's that there are way more application coders than there are >people who really get database systems. Fixing this problem requires >years of efforts. I don't r

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Tue, May 03, 2016 at 11:11:06PM -0500, Guyren Howe wrote: > I've long been frustrated with how most web developers I meet have no idea > how to use an SQL database properly. I think I'm going to write a book called > Love Your Database, aimed at web developers, that explains how to make their

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Yeah but your already paying for a developer ... On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 2:36 PM, Szymon Lipiński wrote: > > > On 4 May 2016 at 20:20, Will McCormick wrote: > >> I 100% agree with you. It's always been a problem but it is up to us to >> take ownership and provide value. Some would be surprising

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On May 4, 2016, at 11:59 , Paul Jungwirth wrote: > > I think teaching this is a different thing than just teaching SQL syntax. I > haven't seen it written about a lot. It must be somewhere, but any book > encouraging "outsiders" to use more SQL could benefit from giving them > direction like t

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 4 May 2016 at 20:20, Will McCormick wrote: > I 100% agree with you. It's always been a problem but it is up to us to > take ownership and provide value. Some would be surprising shocked how > simple it is to manage the Data access layer once the framework is in place > regardless of what it is

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

I 100% agree with you. It's always been a problem but it is up to us to take ownership and provide value. Some would be surprising shocked how simple it is to manage the Data access layer once the framework is in place regardless of what it is written in. For the same reasons you wouldn't typically

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 4 May 2016 at 19:09, Will McCormick wrote: > I agree that it's not like turning on the light switch. And I'm not > implying there isn't a logic layer between the database and the > application. Based off my past experiences I would likely not put business > logic in the database unless it was

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

I agree that it's not like turning on the light switch. And I'm not implying there isn't a logic layer between the database and the application. Based off my past experiences I would likely not put business logic in the database unless it was a critical for performance. This does not make it portab

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 05/04/2016 08:39 AM, Paul Jungwirth wrote: On 05/03/2016 09:11 PM, Guyren Howe wrote: I think I'm going to write a book called Love Your Database, aimed at web developers I gave a talk here about doing "interesting" Postgres things in Rails: Oh also: one part of my talk I did like what gi

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 4 May 2016 at 18:14, Will McCormick wrote: > I agree it's typically political but so are most things business. > Examples: Companies buy other companies - You are using a competitors data > store and want to replace it. Company needs to compete with competitors > and wants to reduce cost ...

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 4 May 2016 at 17:14, Will McCormick wrote: > Examples: Companies buy other companies - You are using a competitors data > store and want to replace it. Company needs to compete with competitors and > wants to reduce cost ... Or, let's say, massive multibillion-dollar DBMS competitor buys s

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

I agree it's typically political but so are most things business. Examples: Companies buy other companies - You are using a competitors data store and want to replace it. Company needs to compete with competitors and wants to reduce cost ... these are not technical requirements and it's certainly

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 4 May 2016 at 17:08, John McKown wrote: > I had a manager, long ago, who used a Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet to > contain all his memos. I was glassy eyed in disbelief. He also would use his > hand calculator to add up the numbers in the spreadsheet to be sure that the > summation function in the sp

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 05/03/2016 09:11 PM, Guyren Howe wrote: I think I'm going to write a book called Love Your Database, aimed at web developers What might I cover that I haven't mentioned? What are the usual objections to server-side code and how can they be met? When *are* they justified and what should the

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Pierre Chevalier Géologue < pierrechevalierg...@free.fr> wrote: > Le 04/05/2016 15:25, John McKown a écrit : > >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Geoff Winkless > >wrote: >> >> ​ >> >> The sensible way is to do it as John wrote -

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Steve Crawford < scrawf...@pinpointresearch.com> wrote: > First, you hit them over the head with a copy of "SQL Antipatterns: > Avoiding the Pitfalls of Database Programming". It is a tad out of date and > tends to use PHP and MySQL for the main examples but does al

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Perhaps a bit US centric but PHB = Pointy Haired Boss. See the boss in "Dilbert". Cheers, Steve On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Pierre Chevalier Géologue < pierrechevalierg...@free.fr> wrote: > Le 04/05/2016 15:25, John McKown a écrit : > >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Geoff Winkless >

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

A reason to consider may be portability. What happens if I want to let my customer chose their data store or I just don't want to put all my eggs in one basket.Technically there are truths but you cannot ignore the business side either. If a we can exceed our performance requirements and keep thing

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

First, you hit them over the head with a copy of "SQL Antipatterns: Avoiding the Pitfalls of Database Programming". It is a tad out of date and tends to use PHP and MySQL for the main examples but does also address different solutions available in PostgreSQL, Oracle. MS SQL server, etc. while point

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Le 04/05/2016 15:25, John McKown a écrit : On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Geoff Winkless mailto:pgsqlad...@geoff.dj>>wrote: ​ The sensible way is to do it as John wrote - to restrict access rights to everyone except admin to calling functions only. That way the functions are wr

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Le 04/05/2016 13:36, dandl a écrit : ... Then I think you've seriously misunderstood. Most people can indeed learn to write basic SQL queries, but those are (obviously) not what I'm talking about. To write the business logic of a significant application entirely in SQL requires PLSQL (or in othe

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Hi, Le 04/05/2016 13:36, Szymon Lipiński a écrit : On 4 May 2016 at 13:13, Chris Travers mailto:chris.trav...@gmail.com>> wrote: A few observations On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Geoff Winkless mailto:pgsqlad...@geoff.dj>> wrote: On 4 May 2016 at 06:46, dandl mailto:da...@and

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 9:25 AM, John McKown wrote: > On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Geoff Winkless > wrote: > >> ​ >> >> The sensible way is to do it as John wrote - to restrict access rights >> to everyone except admin to calling functions only. That way the >> functions are written by the peo

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Geoff Winkless wrote: > ​ > > The sensible way is to do it as John wrote - to restrict access rights > to everyone except admin to calling functions only. That way the > functions are written by the people who are paid to understand the > business rules and the dat

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 4 May 2016 at 12:36, Szymon Lipiński wrote: > From my perspective there is one more thing: when I tried, in couple of > companies, to move some part of the logic to a database, then usually the > management said "no, that's not doable, as we will have trouble with finding > good sql programmers

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 4 May 2016 at 13:36, Szymon Lipiński wrote: > > > On 4 May 2016 at 13:13, Chris Travers wrote: > >> A few observations >> >> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Geoff Winkless >> wrote: >> >>> On 4 May 2016 at 06:46, dandl wrote: >>> > I'm a strong believer in putting the business code next to

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Szymon Lipiński wrote: ​​ > Hi, > at my previous jobs I was working with many programmers, and almost none > of them understood SQL. The problem was even deeper. They didn't want to > learn it. When I was working among java programmers, I noticed that they > hated

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 4 May 2016 at 06:11, Guyren Howe wrote: > I've long been frustrated with how most web developers I meet have no idea > how to use an SQL database properly. I think I'm going to write a book > called Love Your Database, aimed at web developers, that explains how to > make their apps better by l

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 4 May 2016 at 13:13, Chris Travers wrote: > A few observations > > On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Geoff Winkless > wrote: > >> On 4 May 2016 at 06:46, dandl wrote: >> > I'm a strong believer in putting the business code next to the data, >> not the wrong >> > side of the object-relational

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

> ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Geoff Winkless > > I'm a strong believer in putting the business code next to the data, > > not the wrong side of the object-relational divide. However, for many > > the challenge of writing and debugging SQL code is just too high! > > Your source for this sta

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

A few observations On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Geoff Winkless wrote: > On 4 May 2016 at 06:46, dandl wrote: > > I'm a strong believer in putting the business code next to the data, not > the wrong > > side of the object-relational divide. However, for many the challenge of > writing and >

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On 4 May 2016 at 06:46, dandl wrote: > I'm a strong believer in putting the business code next to the data, not the > wrong > side of the object-relational divide. However, for many the challenge of > writing and > debugging SQL code is just too high! Your source for this statement please? "For

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

On Tue, 3 May 2016 23:11:06 -0500 Guyren Howe wrote: > I've long been frustrated with how most web developers I meet have no idea > how to use an SQL database properly. I think I'm going to write a book called > Love Your Database, aimed at web developers, that explains how to make their > app

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

I think one of the key questions is when to put logic in the database (and this is controversial so it may be worth covering from a few angles). In general my view is: 1. Data logic belongs in the database 2. Logic you can't roll back belongs somewhere else 3. A lot of stuff could go either pl

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

Good morning > -Original Message- > From: pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org > [mailto:pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Guyren Howe > Sent: Mittwoch, 4. Mai 2016 06:11 > To: pgsql-general > Subject: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Databa

Re: [GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

> ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Guyren Howe > I've long been frustrated with how most web developers I meet have no idea > how to use an SQL database properly. I think I'm going to write a book called > Love Your Database, aimed at web developers, that explains how to make their > apps better

[GENERAL] Thoughts on "Love Your Database"

I've long been frustrated with how most web developers I meet have no idea how to use an SQL database properly. I think I'm going to write a book called Love Your Database, aimed at web developers, that explains how to make their apps better by leveraging the power of SQL in general, and Postgre