On 4 May 2016 at 20:20, Will McCormick <wmccorm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I 100% agree with you. It's always been a problem but it is up to us to
> take ownership and provide value. Some would be surprising shocked how
> simple it is to manage the Data access layer once the framework is in place
> regardless of what it is written in. For the same reasons you wouldn't
> typically have Application Developers configuring your production disks for
> high performance... why would you ever have them access the database
> inefficiently? There is an assumption designers are good at SQL or at least
> know it ... I challenge you to flip that around and learn the Data Access
> Layer. Companies do not knowingly spend money on hardware to have it
> consumed by inefficient data access? No executive signs up to increase the
> TCO and reduce profit margins when they could be making more money? But
> this is far to often the case and the root cause is they did not have the
> right tool (pun not intended) for the job.
>
> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Szymon Lipiński <mabew...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 4 May 2016 at 19:09, Will McCormick <wmccorm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that it's not like turning on the light switch. And I'm not
>>> implying there isn't a logic layer between the database and the
>>> application. Based off my past experiences I would likely not put business
>>> logic in the database unless it was a critical for performance. This does
>>> not make it portable and does the performance of my product require it? It
>>> really comes down to the application there is not one big paint brush. We
>>> have all be around and get this. I would not likely design a solution that
>>> had the database and the application layers both containing the business
>>> logic. I have seen this and the unexpected behavior as assumptions are made
>>> on both ends of that spectrum. I like to keep it simple where I can. This
>>> all being said I think database minded folks should own DAO's. I think if
>>> your a database guy and you don't own the DAO's you are missing an
>>> opportunity to really make a difference and get more aligned with your
>>> development staff. Doesn't matter what code base DAO's are in it's a
>>> repetitive pattern that any database person can pick up.
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Szymon Lipiński <mabew...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4 May 2016 at 18:14, Will McCormick <wmccorm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I agree it's typically political but so are most things business.
>>>>> Examples: Companies buy other companies - You are using a competitors
>>>>> data
>>>>> store and want to replace it. Company needs to compete with competitors
>>>>> and wants to reduce cost ... these are not technical requirements and it's
>>>>> certainly not vapor ideology. I have only worked for startups and have
>>>>> seen
>>>>> this happen at every company i have worked for, yes it is political but
>>>>> yes
>>>>> it happens. Smaller companies are more susceptible to it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The reality is somewhere in the middle as it often is. My point is you
>>>>> don't have to replace a million lines of code if you plan upfront. If you
>>>>> don't .. you do.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 11:29 AM, Uwe Schroeder <u...@oss4u.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, May 04, 2016 11:05:25 AM Will McCormick wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A reason to consider may be portability. What happens if I want to
>>>>>> let my customer chose their data store or I just don't want to put all my
>>>>>> eggs in one basket.Technically there are truths but you cannot ignore the
>>>>>> business side either. If a we can exceed our performance requirements and
>>>>>> keep things generic/portable this is the best of both worlds.I think this
>>>>>> is the main reason people separate the business logic from the database.
>>>>>> How many of you have ported databases between platforms? Or had multiple
>>>>>> types of data stores in the same company?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have been waiting for the portability argument for the last 20+
>>>>>> posts :-) Everyone who did any type of consulting/working in this
>>>>>> field knows that latest the second argument from management is
>>>>>> “portability”. I have yet to see anyone who really needed to move to a
>>>>>> different database. If they did it usually is a political issue and not a
>>>>>> technical one (uhh, we hired this new operations manager and MS SQL is so
>>>>>> much better than postgresql …) Unless you develop a generic software to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> sold to many clients, the choice of data storage is rarely a real concern
>>>>>> unless someone who feels the urge to be important starts throwing words
>>>>>> he
>>>>>> read in a magazine at management. None of my clients ever questioned the
>>>>>> database. They either had one which they wanted to use (i.e. they had a
>>>>>> big
>>>>>> iron IBM with DB2 on it plus a DBA who knew what he was doing) or they
>>>>>> didn't care as long as it worked as expected and came with a maintenance
>>>>>> contract of sorts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're developing a web application, the least concern is
>>>>>> portability (you're not going to replace the million lines of PHP
>>>>>> either).
>>>>>> The biggest concern should lie with data integrity and API's that protect
>>>>>> your data and business logic so you can hire that cheap app development
>>>>>> company from overseas your boss recommended (based on a spam email)
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> running the risk of compromising everything.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Uwe
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure that when a company buys another company they can just
>>>> migrate the other database without any logic layer. The data is usually
>>>> useless without the business layer which tells how to merge all the parts
>>>> together to have a simple answer to a question like "do we have this in
>>>> stock". And for such a migration that's not too important if we have the
>>>> logic in database, or in some other layer. Of course it is always simpler
>>>> to migrate a database treated like a CSV file, where all the logic
>>>> (including constraints) is in an external application. But do we really
>>>> want that?
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, when I was trying to store all my logic in a
>>>> database, there was just one thing that made me hate it. Testing. Testing
>>>> the procedures inside the database was not easy, not funny, and too much
>>>> time consuming.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> regards Szymon Lipiński
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I also wouldn't keep the logic in a database. And the DAO layer is the
>> best solution I know. The biggest problem I experienced was that there was
>> no DBA in a team, management didn't see any problem with that, and the DAO
>> layer was managed by random programmers who didn't want to learn databases.
>> The results were mainly two: slow development (due to too many bugs), and
>> slow application (due to bad queries).
>>
>> It seems like there is no problem with storing logic anywhere, the
>> problem is with having someone who knows how to write it.
>>
>>
>> --
>> regards Szymon Lipiński
>>
>
>
You forgot that it is intended, there is the mantra "developers are
expensive, hardware is cheap".
--
regards Szymon Lipiński
