Resolution is not necessary for me. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 7:11 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > All, > > I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be. Our > shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals we > are in interaction with are conscious. > > Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do > about that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to > resolve it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution? > > Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the > heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an > agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what > sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience. > > N > > > > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:55 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:53 PM Nicholas Thompson < >> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Have you ever read The Story of a Grizzly by Ernest Thompson Seton (no >>> rel)? >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:13 PM steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Nick, et alii behavioristae - >>>> >>>> We have been using "self-conscious" roughly in place of what I >>>> understand to be "self-aware". I don't think of *many* animals to be >>>> self-conscious even though I grant warm-bloodeds for sure and other >>>> vertebrates maybe self-awareness. I've known *domesticates* to demonstrate >>>> self-consciousness... in the sense of "dancing like someone is watching"... >>>> showing off, being shy, etc. >>>> >>>> I can add a new character to my gallop of characters here. Yesterday >>>> I went to the tiny-fish-slave-market (known as PetCo) and purchased for >>>> about $7 20+ goldfish whose breeding was intended for the "feed other pets" >>>> market. Snakes and ??? not sure what these little guys are normally fed >>>> to. So now I have a whole cohort of characters called "little >>>> fishies"... one died in the water/air-filled bag on the way home (just 30 >>>> mins, but apparently too much shock)... and once acclimatized and >>>> released into a smaller pond above the main pond (where the bigger fish >>>> live), all "little fishies" quickly found their comfort zone swimming >>>> "upstream" in the circulating current (generated by the pump/recirculation >>>> feeding from the main pond). One got caught near the spillway swimming >>>> upstream continuously to avoid going over in the spirit of "swam and swam >>>> all over the dam, oh damn!" . >>>> >>>> A few hours later, a new character enters the tableau: Garter the >>>> Snake... not a big one, maybe 2 feet long and a body not much thicker than >>>> a fat pencil. This little fellow panicked when he saw Hank and I >>>> approach... the thrashed around and around the top pond (2' diameter, >>>> surrounded by stones) looking for a "way out" that didn't include exposing >>>> himself yet-more to me (and Hank). After he finally raised his need to >>>> flee over his fear of direct encounter, I tried counting little fishies, >>>> but they were too elusive and too busy to really count... but there were >>>> still "plenty" there. I know snakes to be able to open wide and gulp >>>> things half again too big for their jaws when closed... The range of size >>>> of "little fishies" seemed to be between "too big" and "way too big" for >>>> Garter... but probably not. This morning Hank and I went to count again >>>> and the small pond had no evident fish in it. Fortunately the big pond >>>> showed a good number of the little guys, maybe all of them? I'm guessing >>>> they all gave up one, by one, resisting "going over the waterfall"... or >>>> maybe Garter ate all the ones who didn't take the plunge? I've seen both >>>> Garter's bigger brothers and their second cousin RedRacer in the ponds >>>> before which may be a better explanation than "Racoons" for why the numbers >>>> of live fish always dwindle over time without any evident floaters (or >>>> frozen fish-sticks which do happen in winter if I fail to keep the >>>> circulation going in the coldest periods). >>>> >>>> From what I know of *proper* pond culture, if these little guys (or the >>>> 2-3 times bigger cousins) ever get to be big enough, I will likely name >>>> them individually and begin to project onto them all kinds of >>>> sentience/consciousness/self-awareness that is easy to not-do when they are >>>> still tiny (<1" long)? Maybe because they are young and still ignorant of >>>> everything but their immediate here/now with little experience to expand >>>> that. On the other extreme, last time I was at the Rio Grande after a >>>> big flood period, there were a number of huge (2' long?) carp caught in the >>>> drift/detritus and they didn't strike me in the least as self-aware (maybe >>>> I'd have felt different if I'd met them while they were still alive?). >>>> >>>> As suggested elsewhere in the thread "the ability to model the world >>>> and run that model forwards and backwards in time" and elaborated in >>>> Friston's various extrapolations/expansions (Free Energy Principle, >>>> Dynamic Causal Modeling, Active Inference >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J._Friston>). >>>> >>>> I'm about to launch two other characters into the pond, a leaf-lettuce >>>> rootlet and a celery rootlet, both started in a bowl on my windowsill. >>>> Just to see if they can continue to grow aquaponically if I find a way to >>>> help them float with their roots underwater and their growing leaf-cores to >>>> reach for the sun. They do have sensations (albeit slower/duller? than >>>> mine or the fishes) and they do execute responses (growing their roots into >>>> the water, growing their leaves into the sunlight/air), albeit slower? >>>> Conscious? Self-aware? Not really, or if so barely, or perhaps just >>>> "foreignly and slowly"? I don't imagine they are much if at all aware of >>>> me, much less my intentions of pulling them apart limb from limb to eat >>>> them (like I did their clone-parent?). Mary, on the other hand sings to >>>> her houseplants, and they do seem to thrive compared to when I am in charge >>>> of their water-offerings. I look forward to little fishies nibbling on >>>> their roots while offering them nitrogen-rich nutrients in the way all >>>> animals do. >>>> >>>> The little (and middle) fishies dance like someone (predators?) are >>>> watching... the celery and lettuce-lets, not so much? BTW, for all the >>>> birds visiting the pond, none of them appear to prey on fish... though some >>>> are big on insects... >>>> >>>> (typing like nobody is reading).... >>>> >>>> - Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/18/24 10:33 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks, Dave. Sorry if I don]t hold up my end. I am falling behind in >>>> everything except my capacity to be stirred up by ideas. Bad >>>> combination. Maybe it's time for Caleb to come and take away my >>>> keyboard. >>>> >>>> So, I now see a new problem in our anecdotal method here: How to >>>> continue without spinning off into vague agreement. Along with a desire to >>>> achieve agreement comes a desire to delimit it. We agree that all the >>>> characters in the story are conscious; I am trying to see how we could >>>> explore the degree of our agreement on the proposition that we are all >>>> self-conscious. >>>> >>>> That's what I am thinking about now, but I am late to THUAM so I am >>>> going there now. >>>> >>>> N >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:41 PM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dusty is conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give Jackson (my other dog) >>>>>> a treat and observe body language and facial expressions exhibited by >>>>>> Dusty >>>>>> that I interpret as, "where's mine?" This indicates to me some kind of >>>>>> Dusty self-awareness/consciousness of self. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Could you say more about the body language and facial expressions. >>>>> Imagine that I am going to take care of your two dogs for a weekend; >>>>> what >>>>> would you tell me to look for?* >>>>> >>>>> the above is the quote from me email to the list the bold-italic is >>>>> your request. around the 15th of July. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dusty and Jackson have their own idiosyncratic (notice the attribution >>>>> of a self-aware consciousness in that word) way of asking for / obtaining >>>>> what they want. >>>>> >>>>> Dusty's way is silent, Jackson's almost always involves a >>>>> gentle-bark/yip. E.g., Dusty wants a head rub so she comes over and places >>>>> her chin on my knee and looks soulful. Jackson sits close to my knee, >>>>> establishes eye contact and vocalizes his request. >>>>> >>>>> Both come to my bed at the earliest sign of sunrise (around 5:30 these >>>>> days) and stare at me. Jackson will eventually vocalize and I get up. >>>>> Dusty >>>>> has observed this, daily, for the past N-months but has never been tempted >>>>> to vocalize herself. >>>>> >>>>> if she ever does vocalize, even by accident, I will immediately rise >>>>> and see if she learns the stimulus-response pattern. >>>>> >>>>> I may be seeing nothing more than early training. Dusty's previous >>>>> owners demanded that she be seen and not heard, and to wait, indefinitely, >>>>> for explicit invitations. I have no idea about Jackson's early training. >>>>> >>>>> davew >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> David, and all. >>>>> >>>>> I am trying to keep this thread as clean of the meta as I can. So I >>>>> will answer your general critique on the other thread. Suffice it to say >>>>> here that behaviorism is way in the rear view mirror at this point and I >>>>> certainly am not trying to teach it. Suffice it to say, also, I am sure I >>>>> have done all the bad things you point to; I am blundering about here >>>>> trying to find a way toward shared understandings of experiences. >>>>> >>>>> *Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then >>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, >>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then >>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a >>>>> small bark/yip while staring.* >>>>> >>>>> My command of gmail bring what it is, I cannot find the email where I >>>>> prompted this elaboration from you. I am sure there is one. i just cant >>>>> find it. Ok, so lets say we are groping toward a method here, call it >>>>> critical anecdotalism. Person A tells a story which, intuitively he feels >>>>> is an example of some experience-type. Person B agrees or disagrees with >>>>> that attribution. Together we work out what other experiences would >>>>> follow >>>>> if this attribution was correct. Here, we might discover that we disagree >>>>> about the boundaries of the experience-type. But it if we find that we >>>>> agree on those boundaries, then we search through our experiences for >>>>> other >>>>> anecdotes that fall within -- or out of --the type. So, as I read your >>>>> description, I think, this is an example of "trying to figure out what the >>>>> heck I have to do to get a treat, around here?" You might then do an >>>>> experiment, which I understand in this context to be a procedure that >>>>> provokes an experience that we both would take as decisive. Let's say you >>>>> start to feed Jackson ONLY when he yips. If, after a few days of that, >>>>> Dusty doesn't begin to yip, I would be less inclined to my original >>>>> attribution. >>>>> >>>>> It's kind of you to help me with this, Dave. >>>>> >>>>> It's quite possible I am just sliding into dementia. Always a risk. >>>>> >>>>> Nick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> davew >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:27 AM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From the beginning, I believed this thread was, in substantial part, >>>>> Nick's attempt to 'teach' us to think as behavioralists and see how far we >>>>> could go in achieving some kind of consensus. I tried very hard to couch >>>>> all of my responses in such terms. I did express, early on, that I had >>>>> serious doubts about how far we could go without deviating into other >>>>> questions—and the answer appears to be not far. >>>>> >>>>> First I copped to blatant anthropomorphism with seem to be accepted >>>>> with no concern. >>>>> Then Nick introduced metaphysics followed by a quick mea culpa. >>>>> Then a flood of additional metaphsysics (inside/outside), >>>>> inter-species (human-whale, human-machine) illustrations, definitional >>>>> nuances (consciousness, awareness, intelligence), and my challenge to the >>>>> 'approach' because it excluded 'evidence' from meditation or drugs. >>>>> >>>>> Although Nick keeps saying he is 'pleased' with responses, I am >>>>> curious as to whether or not we are really making progress towards >>>>> consensus of any kind. >>>>> >>>>> But, just in case, responding to Nick's last question to me: >>>>> Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then >>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, >>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then >>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a >>>>> small bark/yip while staring. >>>>> >>>>> davew >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, at 11:59 AM, steve smith wrote: >>>>> > Nick - >>>>> >> I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials and >>>>> I >>>>> >> am beginning to sense method in my madness. >>>>> > I'm glad you were willing able to wade through my gallop of >>>>> > observations/reflections/experiences with these two highly central >>>>> > creatures in my household. >>>>> >> I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank. >>>>> > Very much so, as I experience with many cats, she does not reach as >>>>> far >>>>> > into human psyche/nature to meet me as most dogs (Hank in >>>>> particular) does. >>>>> >> So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self >>>>> >> conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method >>>>> goes >>>>> >> something like this >>>>> >> >>>>> >> We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is >>>>> conscious. >>>>> > >>>>> > I think you know from my pan-consciousness self-diagnosis that all of >>>>> > the things I am inclined to report about Cyd also applies to the >>>>> > hummingbirds, the lizards she stalks, and the fish Hank barks at. >>>>> > >>>>> > Cyd has a very highly adaptive sensorimotor system which not only >>>>> allows >>>>> > her to be good at stalking and catching lizards but also at begging >>>>> her >>>>> > people to let her out to do so, or to give her a helping of "second >>>>> > dinners" like the hobbit she channels. She observes, considers, >>>>> acts, >>>>> > observes the consequences of her acts (the book falling from the top >>>>> of >>>>> > the bookcase when she traverses it too rambunctioiusly, the way Mary >>>>> > jumps up and lets her out when she hits the right note of plaintive >>>>> > meow, the way the lizard freezes when it senses her). This is an >>>>> > overwhelming indication of consciousness in my apprehension of the >>>>> world. >>>>> > >>>>> > We were implying that an animal's "Love" or "loving relationship >>>>> with" a >>>>> > human familiar had something to do with consciousness. I think >>>>> that is >>>>> > a red-herring, I don't think the lizards love Mary when she frees >>>>> them >>>>> > from Cyd's jaws, but I do think they are acutely conscious. >>>>> > >>>>> >> From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is >>>>> conscious, >>>>> >> he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than >>>>> >> otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we >>>>> now >>>>> >> add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if >>>>> >> other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non >>>>> conscious >>>>> >> ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious >>>>> >> beings do. >>>>> > >>>>> > See above... A==sense, B==process, C==respond. I don't know that >>>>> A, >>>>> > B, C singularly without both of the others even makes sense. >>>>> > >>>>> > The fish in the pond are almost continuously in some level of motion, >>>>> > they appear to be sensing with their photon and olfactory and >>>>> > vibration/pressure-wave sensors. They respond to signals (shadow of >>>>> > human or dog looming over pond, insect landing on the surface of the >>>>> > pond, bit of high-nutrient food sinking in the pond) by bolting or >>>>> > gulping or seeking more input (curiosity). While a lot of their >>>>> > processing may be prewired/instinctive, I do believe that part of >>>>> their >>>>> > processing is in support of "learning". The dragonflies who like >>>>> the >>>>> > high-ground of the tips of everything they can alight on seem yet >>>>> more >>>>> > automatic/instinctual yet they appear (because I project?) to >>>>> learn... >>>>> > they appear to become more and more tolerant of my approaching them >>>>> the >>>>> > more I do it? They likely recognize that despite the appeal of the >>>>> tip >>>>> > of my car antennae, the tips of the cat-tails in the pond seem to be >>>>> > more appealing given the likely food-flux they can spy and grab from >>>>> > that vantage (but this is a just-so projection since I'm not a very >>>>> > disciplined naturalist, I really have nothing but anecdotal >>>>> observations). >>>>> > >>>>> > So perhaps D might be "learn"... >>>>> > >>>>> > Which takes me to the trees and bushes I feel a strong >>>>> > affinity/familiarity with. Do they A, B, C (and even D?). I say >>>>> yes. >>>>> > They don't have lenses over their photo-receptors, but since their >>>>> > primary/singular energy gathering activity is photonic/light, they >>>>> > clearly sense light. They also seem to be able to extend root >>>>> growth >>>>> > toward water and nutrients, or along same said nutrients... this >>>>> > represents A and C as does growth "reaching" growth out from under >>>>> the >>>>> > shade to gather more light? What about B? B would seem to be >>>>> entirely >>>>> > pre-wired processing, not adaptive at the scale of the individual >>>>> > single-lifetime organism? Which spills over to "learning" (D) which >>>>> > maybe isn't happening at the scale of the individual... does a >>>>> branch or >>>>> > root keep "reaching" even if it gets stymied over and over? I'm not >>>>> > sure. So if B and even D are required for "consciousness" then >>>>> perhaps >>>>> > it is only a population of such organisms and the germline phenotypic >>>>> > expression which we must acknowledge some level of >>>>> "proto-consciousness" >>>>> > to? >>>>> > >>>>> > To go on down the line of lower-and lower complexity entities or >>>>> systems >>>>> > i'd have to grasp further and seek the existing guidance of others in >>>>> > the pan-consciousness world who have worked through this in their >>>>> own ways. >>>>> > >>>>> > Bottom line, is that the "bottom line" of consciousness feels very >>>>> hard >>>>> > for me to even begin to want to draw between Hank and Cyd or where it >>>>> > excludes Lizzy or Fishy or DraggyFly or any and all of the >>>>> > yet-less-familiar creatures they stalk and eat. Interesting that all >>>>> of >>>>> > these are predators, no? >>>>> > >>>>> > Yet another free-associateve gallop? >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> > to (un)subscribe >>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> > archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>>>> Clark University >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>>> Clark University >>>> >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>> Clark University >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >> Clark University >> > > > -- > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology > Clark University > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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