On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:53 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you ever read The Story of a Grizzly by Ernest Thompson Seton (no > rel)? > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:13 PM steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > >> Nick, et alii behavioristae - >> >> We have been using "self-conscious" roughly in place of what I understand >> to be "self-aware". I don't think of *many* animals to be self-conscious >> even though I grant warm-bloodeds for sure and other vertebrates maybe >> self-awareness. I've known *domesticates* to demonstrate >> self-consciousness... in the sense of "dancing like someone is watching"... >> showing off, being shy, etc. >> >> I can add a new character to my gallop of characters here. Yesterday I >> went to the tiny-fish-slave-market (known as PetCo) and purchased for about >> $7 20+ goldfish whose breeding was intended for the "feed other pets" >> market. Snakes and ??? not sure what these little guys are normally fed >> to. So now I have a whole cohort of characters called "little >> fishies"... one died in the water/air-filled bag on the way home (just 30 >> mins, but apparently too much shock)... and once acclimatized and >> released into a smaller pond above the main pond (where the bigger fish >> live), all "little fishies" quickly found their comfort zone swimming >> "upstream" in the circulating current (generated by the pump/recirculation >> feeding from the main pond). One got caught near the spillway swimming >> upstream continuously to avoid going over in the spirit of "swam and swam >> all over the dam, oh damn!" . >> >> A few hours later, a new character enters the tableau: Garter the >> Snake... not a big one, maybe 2 feet long and a body not much thicker than >> a fat pencil. This little fellow panicked when he saw Hank and I >> approach... the thrashed around and around the top pond (2' diameter, >> surrounded by stones) looking for a "way out" that didn't include exposing >> himself yet-more to me (and Hank). After he finally raised his need to >> flee over his fear of direct encounter, I tried counting little fishies, >> but they were too elusive and too busy to really count... but there were >> still "plenty" there. I know snakes to be able to open wide and gulp >> things half again too big for their jaws when closed... The range of size >> of "little fishies" seemed to be between "too big" and "way too big" for >> Garter... but probably not. This morning Hank and I went to count again >> and the small pond had no evident fish in it. Fortunately the big pond >> showed a good number of the little guys, maybe all of them? I'm guessing >> they all gave up one, by one, resisting "going over the waterfall"... or >> maybe Garter ate all the ones who didn't take the plunge? I've seen both >> Garter's bigger brothers and their second cousin RedRacer in the ponds >> before which may be a better explanation than "Racoons" for why the numbers >> of live fish always dwindle over time without any evident floaters (or >> frozen fish-sticks which do happen in winter if I fail to keep the >> circulation going in the coldest periods). >> >> From what I know of *proper* pond culture, if these little guys (or the >> 2-3 times bigger cousins) ever get to be big enough, I will likely name >> them individually and begin to project onto them all kinds of >> sentience/consciousness/self-awareness that is easy to not-do when they are >> still tiny (<1" long)? Maybe because they are young and still ignorant of >> everything but their immediate here/now with little experience to expand >> that. On the other extreme, last time I was at the Rio Grande after a >> big flood period, there were a number of huge (2' long?) carp caught in the >> drift/detritus and they didn't strike me in the least as self-aware (maybe >> I'd have felt different if I'd met them while they were still alive?). >> >> As suggested elsewhere in the thread "the ability to model the world and >> run that model forwards and backwards in time" and elaborated in Friston's >> various extrapolations/expansions (Free Energy Principle, Dynamic Causal >> Modeling, Active Inference >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J._Friston>). >> >> I'm about to launch two other characters into the pond, a leaf-lettuce >> rootlet and a celery rootlet, both started in a bowl on my windowsill. >> Just to see if they can continue to grow aquaponically if I find a way to >> help them float with their roots underwater and their growing leaf-cores to >> reach for the sun. They do have sensations (albeit slower/duller? than >> mine or the fishes) and they do execute responses (growing their roots into >> the water, growing their leaves into the sunlight/air), albeit slower? >> Conscious? Self-aware? Not really, or if so barely, or perhaps just >> "foreignly and slowly"? I don't imagine they are much if at all aware of >> me, much less my intentions of pulling them apart limb from limb to eat >> them (like I did their clone-parent?). Mary, on the other hand sings to >> her houseplants, and they do seem to thrive compared to when I am in charge >> of their water-offerings. I look forward to little fishies nibbling on >> their roots while offering them nitrogen-rich nutrients in the way all >> animals do. >> >> The little (and middle) fishies dance like someone (predators?) are >> watching... the celery and lettuce-lets, not so much? BTW, for all the >> birds visiting the pond, none of them appear to prey on fish... though some >> are big on insects... >> >> (typing like nobody is reading).... >> >> - Steve >> >> >> On 7/18/24 10:33 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >> >> Thanks, Dave. Sorry if I don]t hold up my end. I am falling behind in >> everything except my capacity to be stirred up by ideas. Bad >> combination. Maybe it's time for Caleb to come and take away my >> keyboard. >> >> So, I now see a new problem in our anecdotal method here: How to >> continue without spinning off into vague agreement. Along with a desire to >> achieve agreement comes a desire to delimit it. We agree that all the >> characters in the story are conscious; I am trying to see how we could >> explore the degree of our agreement on the proposition that we are all >> self-conscious. >> >> That's what I am thinking about now, but I am late to THUAM so I am going >> there now. >> >> N >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:41 PM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> >> wrote: >> >>> Dusty is conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give Jackson (my other dog) a >>>> treat and observe body language and facial expressions exhibited by Dusty >>>> that I interpret as, "where's mine?" This indicates to me some kind of >>>> Dusty self-awareness/consciousness of self. >>>> >>> >>> *Could you say more about the body language and facial expressions. >>> Imagine that I am going to take care of your two dogs for a weekend; what >>> would you tell me to look for?* >>> >>> the above is the quote from me email to the list the bold-italic is your >>> request. around the 15th of July. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dusty and Jackson have their own idiosyncratic (notice the attribution >>> of a self-aware consciousness in that word) way of asking for / obtaining >>> what they want. >>> >>> Dusty's way is silent, Jackson's almost always involves a >>> gentle-bark/yip. E.g., Dusty wants a head rub so she comes over and places >>> her chin on my knee and looks soulful. Jackson sits close to my knee, >>> establishes eye contact and vocalizes his request. >>> >>> Both come to my bed at the earliest sign of sunrise (around 5:30 these >>> days) and stare at me. Jackson will eventually vocalize and I get up. Dusty >>> has observed this, daily, for the past N-months but has never been tempted >>> to vocalize herself. >>> >>> if she ever does vocalize, even by accident, I will immediately rise and >>> see if she learns the stimulus-response pattern. >>> >>> I may be seeing nothing more than early training. Dusty's previous >>> owners demanded that she be seen and not heard, and to wait, indefinitely, >>> for explicit invitations. I have no idea about Jackson's early training. >>> >>> davew >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >>> >>> David, and all. >>> >>> I am trying to keep this thread as clean of the meta as I can. So I >>> will answer your general critique on the other thread. Suffice it to say >>> here that behaviorism is way in the rear view mirror at this point and I >>> certainly am not trying to teach it. Suffice it to say, also, I am sure I >>> have done all the bad things you point to; I am blundering about here >>> trying to find a way toward shared understandings of experiences. >>> >>> *Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then stand, >>> in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, then at >>> me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then 'staring' >>> at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a small >>> bark/yip while staring.* >>> >>> My command of gmail bring what it is, I cannot find the email where I >>> prompted this elaboration from you. I am sure there is one. i just cant >>> find it. Ok, so lets say we are groping toward a method here, call it >>> critical anecdotalism. Person A tells a story which, intuitively he feels >>> is an example of some experience-type. Person B agrees or disagrees with >>> that attribution. Together we work out what other experiences would follow >>> if this attribution was correct. Here, we might discover that we disagree >>> about the boundaries of the experience-type. But it if we find that we >>> agree on those boundaries, then we search through our experiences for other >>> anecdotes that fall within -- or out of --the type. So, as I read your >>> description, I think, this is an example of "trying to figure out what the >>> heck I have to do to get a treat, around here?" You might then do an >>> experiment, which I understand in this context to be a procedure that >>> provokes an experience that we both would take as decisive. Let's say you >>> start to feed Jackson ONLY when he yips. If, after a few days of that, >>> Dusty doesn't begin to yip, I would be less inclined to my original >>> attribution. >>> >>> It's kind of you to help me with this, Dave. >>> >>> It's quite possible I am just sliding into dementia. Always a risk. >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> davew >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:27 AM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> >>> wrote: >>> >>> From the beginning, I believed this thread was, in substantial part, >>> Nick's attempt to 'teach' us to think as behavioralists and see how far we >>> could go in achieving some kind of consensus. I tried very hard to couch >>> all of my responses in such terms. I did express, early on, that I had >>> serious doubts about how far we could go without deviating into other >>> questions—and the answer appears to be not far. >>> >>> First I copped to blatant anthropomorphism with seem to be accepted with >>> no concern. >>> Then Nick introduced metaphysics followed by a quick mea culpa. >>> Then a flood of additional metaphsysics (inside/outside), inter-species >>> (human-whale, human-machine) illustrations, definitional nuances >>> (consciousness, awareness, intelligence), and my challenge to the >>> 'approach' because it excluded 'evidence' from meditation or drugs. >>> >>> Although Nick keeps saying he is 'pleased' with responses, I am curious >>> as to whether or not we are really making progress towards consensus of any >>> kind. >>> >>> But, just in case, responding to Nick's last question to me: >>> Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then stand, >>> in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, then at >>> me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then 'staring' >>> at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a small >>> bark/yip while staring. >>> >>> davew >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, at 11:59 AM, steve smith wrote: >>> > Nick - >>> >> I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials and I >>> >> am beginning to sense method in my madness. >>> > I'm glad you were willing able to wade through my gallop of >>> > observations/reflections/experiences with these two highly central >>> > creatures in my household. >>> >> I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank. >>> > Very much so, as I experience with many cats, she does not reach as far >>> > into human psyche/nature to meet me as most dogs (Hank in particular) >>> does. >>> >> So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self >>> >> conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method goes >>> >> something like this >>> >> >>> >> We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is >>> conscious. >>> > >>> > I think you know from my pan-consciousness self-diagnosis that all of >>> > the things I am inclined to report about Cyd also applies to the >>> > hummingbirds, the lizards she stalks, and the fish Hank barks at. >>> > >>> > Cyd has a very highly adaptive sensorimotor system which not only >>> allows >>> > her to be good at stalking and catching lizards but also at begging her >>> > people to let her out to do so, or to give her a helping of "second >>> > dinners" like the hobbit she channels. She observes, considers, acts, >>> > observes the consequences of her acts (the book falling from the top of >>> > the bookcase when she traverses it too rambunctioiusly, the way Mary >>> > jumps up and lets her out when she hits the right note of plaintive >>> > meow, the way the lizard freezes when it senses her). This is an >>> > overwhelming indication of consciousness in my apprehension of the >>> world. >>> > >>> > We were implying that an animal's "Love" or "loving relationship with" >>> a >>> > human familiar had something to do with consciousness. I think that >>> is >>> > a red-herring, I don't think the lizards love Mary when she frees >>> them >>> > from Cyd's jaws, but I do think they are acutely conscious. >>> > >>> >> From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is conscious, >>> >> he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than >>> >> otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we now >>> >> add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if >>> >> other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non conscious >>> >> ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious >>> >> beings do. >>> > >>> > See above... A==sense, B==process, C==respond. I don't know that A, >>> > B, C singularly without both of the others even makes sense. >>> > >>> > The fish in the pond are almost continuously in some level of motion, >>> > they appear to be sensing with their photon and olfactory and >>> > vibration/pressure-wave sensors. They respond to signals (shadow of >>> > human or dog looming over pond, insect landing on the surface of the >>> > pond, bit of high-nutrient food sinking in the pond) by bolting or >>> > gulping or seeking more input (curiosity). While a lot of their >>> > processing may be prewired/instinctive, I do believe that part of their >>> > processing is in support of "learning". The dragonflies who like the >>> > high-ground of the tips of everything they can alight on seem yet more >>> > automatic/instinctual yet they appear (because I project?) to learn... >>> > they appear to become more and more tolerant of my approaching them the >>> > more I do it? They likely recognize that despite the appeal of the tip >>> > of my car antennae, the tips of the cat-tails in the pond seem to be >>> > more appealing given the likely food-flux they can spy and grab from >>> > that vantage (but this is a just-so projection since I'm not a very >>> > disciplined naturalist, I really have nothing but anecdotal >>> observations). >>> > >>> > So perhaps D might be "learn"... >>> > >>> > Which takes me to the trees and bushes I feel a strong >>> > affinity/familiarity with. Do they A, B, C (and even D?). I say >>> yes. >>> > They don't have lenses over their photo-receptors, but since their >>> > primary/singular energy gathering activity is photonic/light, they >>> > clearly sense light. They also seem to be able to extend root growth >>> > toward water and nutrients, or along same said nutrients... this >>> > represents A and C as does growth "reaching" growth out from under the >>> > shade to gather more light? What about B? B would seem to be entirely >>> > pre-wired processing, not adaptive at the scale of the individual >>> > single-lifetime organism? Which spills over to "learning" (D) which >>> > maybe isn't happening at the scale of the individual... does a branch >>> or >>> > root keep "reaching" even if it gets stymied over and over? I'm not >>> > sure. So if B and even D are required for "consciousness" then perhaps >>> > it is only a population of such organisms and the germline phenotypic >>> > expression which we must acknowledge some level of >>> "proto-consciousness" >>> > to? >>> > >>> > To go on down the line of lower-and lower complexity entities or >>> systems >>> > i'd have to grasp further and seek the existing guidance of others in >>> > the pan-consciousness world who have worked through this in their own >>> ways. >>> > >>> > Bottom line, is that the "bottom line" of consciousness feels very hard >>> > for me to even begin to want to draw between Hank and Cyd or where it >>> > excludes Lizzy or Fishy or DraggyFly or any and all of the >>> > yet-less-familiar creatures they stalk and eat. Interesting that all of >>> > these are predators, no? >>> > >>> > Yet another free-associateve gallop? >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> > archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>> Clark University >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >>> >>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >> Clark University >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > > > -- > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology > Clark University > -- Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University
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