Have you ever read The Story of a Grizzly by Ernest Thompson Seton (no rel)?
On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:13 PM steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > Nick, et alii behavioristae - > > We have been using "self-conscious" roughly in place of what I understand > to be "self-aware". I don't think of *many* animals to be self-conscious > even though I grant warm-bloodeds for sure and other vertebrates maybe > self-awareness. I've known *domesticates* to demonstrate > self-consciousness... in the sense of "dancing like someone is watching"... > showing off, being shy, etc. > > I can add a new character to my gallop of characters here. Yesterday I > went to the tiny-fish-slave-market (known as PetCo) and purchased for about > $7 20+ goldfish whose breeding was intended for the "feed other pets" > market. Snakes and ??? not sure what these little guys are normally fed > to. So now I have a whole cohort of characters called "little > fishies"... one died in the water/air-filled bag on the way home (just 30 > mins, but apparently too much shock)... and once acclimatized and > released into a smaller pond above the main pond (where the bigger fish > live), all "little fishies" quickly found their comfort zone swimming > "upstream" in the circulating current (generated by the pump/recirculation > feeding from the main pond). One got caught near the spillway swimming > upstream continuously to avoid going over in the spirit of "swam and swam > all over the dam, oh damn!" . > > A few hours later, a new character enters the tableau: Garter the > Snake... not a big one, maybe 2 feet long and a body not much thicker than > a fat pencil. This little fellow panicked when he saw Hank and I > approach... the thrashed around and around the top pond (2' diameter, > surrounded by stones) looking for a "way out" that didn't include exposing > himself yet-more to me (and Hank). After he finally raised his need to > flee over his fear of direct encounter, I tried counting little fishies, > but they were too elusive and too busy to really count... but there were > still "plenty" there. I know snakes to be able to open wide and gulp > things half again too big for their jaws when closed... The range of size > of "little fishies" seemed to be between "too big" and "way too big" for > Garter... but probably not. This morning Hank and I went to count again > and the small pond had no evident fish in it. Fortunately the big pond > showed a good number of the little guys, maybe all of them? I'm guessing > they all gave up one, by one, resisting "going over the waterfall"... or > maybe Garter ate all the ones who didn't take the plunge? I've seen both > Garter's bigger brothers and their second cousin RedRacer in the ponds > before which may be a better explanation than "Racoons" for why the numbers > of live fish always dwindle over time without any evident floaters (or > frozen fish-sticks which do happen in winter if I fail to keep the > circulation going in the coldest periods). > > From what I know of *proper* pond culture, if these little guys (or the > 2-3 times bigger cousins) ever get to be big enough, I will likely name > them individually and begin to project onto them all kinds of > sentience/consciousness/self-awareness that is easy to not-do when they are > still tiny (<1" long)? Maybe because they are young and still ignorant of > everything but their immediate here/now with little experience to expand > that. On the other extreme, last time I was at the Rio Grande after a > big flood period, there were a number of huge (2' long?) carp caught in the > drift/detritus and they didn't strike me in the least as self-aware (maybe > I'd have felt different if I'd met them while they were still alive?). > > As suggested elsewhere in the thread "the ability to model the world and > run that model forwards and backwards in time" and elaborated in Friston's > various extrapolations/expansions (Free Energy Principle, Dynamic Causal > Modeling, Active Inference <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J._Friston> > ). > > I'm about to launch two other characters into the pond, a leaf-lettuce > rootlet and a celery rootlet, both started in a bowl on my windowsill. > Just to see if they can continue to grow aquaponically if I find a way to > help them float with their roots underwater and their growing leaf-cores to > reach for the sun. They do have sensations (albeit slower/duller? than > mine or the fishes) and they do execute responses (growing their roots into > the water, growing their leaves into the sunlight/air), albeit slower? > Conscious? Self-aware? Not really, or if so barely, or perhaps just > "foreignly and slowly"? I don't imagine they are much if at all aware of > me, much less my intentions of pulling them apart limb from limb to eat > them (like I did their clone-parent?). Mary, on the other hand sings to > her houseplants, and they do seem to thrive compared to when I am in charge > of their water-offerings. I look forward to little fishies nibbling on > their roots while offering them nitrogen-rich nutrients in the way all > animals do. > > The little (and middle) fishies dance like someone (predators?) are > watching... the celery and lettuce-lets, not so much? BTW, for all the > birds visiting the pond, none of them appear to prey on fish... though some > are big on insects... > > (typing like nobody is reading).... > > - Steve > > > On 7/18/24 10:33 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > Thanks, Dave. Sorry if I don]t hold up my end. I am falling behind in > everything except my capacity to be stirred up by ideas. Bad > combination. Maybe it's time for Caleb to come and take away my > keyboard. > > So, I now see a new problem in our anecdotal method here: How to > continue without spinning off into vague agreement. Along with a desire to > achieve agreement comes a desire to delimit it. We agree that all the > characters in the story are conscious; I am trying to see how we could > explore the degree of our agreement on the proposition that we are all > self-conscious. > > That's what I am thinking about now, but I am late to THUAM so I am going > there now. > > N > > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:41 PM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> > wrote: > >> Dusty is conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give Jackson (my other dog) a >>> treat and observe body language and facial expressions exhibited by Dusty >>> that I interpret as, "where's mine?" This indicates to me some kind of >>> Dusty self-awareness/consciousness of self. >>> >> >> *Could you say more about the body language and facial expressions. >> Imagine that I am going to take care of your two dogs for a weekend; what >> would you tell me to look for?* >> >> the above is the quote from me email to the list the bold-italic is your >> request. around the 15th of July. >> >> >> >> >> Dusty and Jackson have their own idiosyncratic (notice the attribution of >> a self-aware consciousness in that word) way of asking for / obtaining what >> they want. >> >> Dusty's way is silent, Jackson's almost always involves a >> gentle-bark/yip. E.g., Dusty wants a head rub so she comes over and places >> her chin on my knee and looks soulful. Jackson sits close to my knee, >> establishes eye contact and vocalizes his request. >> >> Both come to my bed at the earliest sign of sunrise (around 5:30 these >> days) and stare at me. Jackson will eventually vocalize and I get up. Dusty >> has observed this, daily, for the past N-months but has never been tempted >> to vocalize herself. >> >> if she ever does vocalize, even by accident, I will immediately rise and >> see if she learns the stimulus-response pattern. >> >> I may be seeing nothing more than early training. Dusty's previous owners >> demanded that she be seen and not heard, and to wait, indefinitely, for >> explicit invitations. I have no idea about Jackson's early training. >> >> davew >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >> >> David, and all. >> >> I am trying to keep this thread as clean of the meta as I can. So I will >> answer your general critique on the other thread. Suffice it to say here >> that behaviorism is way in the rear view mirror at this point and I >> certainly am not trying to teach it. Suffice it to say, also, I am sure I >> have done all the bad things you point to; I am blundering about here >> trying to find a way toward shared understandings of experiences. >> >> *Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then stand, >> in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, then at >> me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then 'staring' >> at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a small >> bark/yip while staring.* >> >> My command of gmail bring what it is, I cannot find the email where I >> prompted this elaboration from you. I am sure there is one. i just cant >> find it. Ok, so lets say we are groping toward a method here, call it >> critical anecdotalism. Person A tells a story which, intuitively he feels >> is an example of some experience-type. Person B agrees or disagrees with >> that attribution. Together we work out what other experiences would follow >> if this attribution was correct. Here, we might discover that we disagree >> about the boundaries of the experience-type. But it if we find that we >> agree on those boundaries, then we search through our experiences for other >> anecdotes that fall within -- or out of --the type. So, as I read your >> description, I think, this is an example of "trying to figure out what the >> heck I have to do to get a treat, around here?" You might then do an >> experiment, which I understand in this context to be a procedure that >> provokes an experience that we both would take as decisive. Let's say you >> start to feed Jackson ONLY when he yips. If, after a few days of that, >> Dusty doesn't begin to yip, I would be less inclined to my original >> attribution. >> >> It's kind of you to help me with this, Dave. >> >> It's quite possible I am just sliding into dementia. Always a risk. >> >> Nick >> >> >> davew >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:27 AM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> >> wrote: >> >> From the beginning, I believed this thread was, in substantial part, >> Nick's attempt to 'teach' us to think as behavioralists and see how far we >> could go in achieving some kind of consensus. I tried very hard to couch >> all of my responses in such terms. I did express, early on, that I had >> serious doubts about how far we could go without deviating into other >> questions—and the answer appears to be not far. >> >> First I copped to blatant anthropomorphism with seem to be accepted with >> no concern. >> Then Nick introduced metaphysics followed by a quick mea culpa. >> Then a flood of additional metaphsysics (inside/outside), inter-species >> (human-whale, human-machine) illustrations, definitional nuances >> (consciousness, awareness, intelligence), and my challenge to the >> 'approach' because it excluded 'evidence' from meditation or drugs. >> >> Although Nick keeps saying he is 'pleased' with responses, I am curious >> as to whether or not we are really making progress towards consensus of any >> kind. >> >> But, just in case, responding to Nick's last question to me: >> Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then stand, >> in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, then at >> me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then 'staring' >> at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter a small >> bark/yip while staring. >> >> davew >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, at 11:59 AM, steve smith wrote: >> > Nick - >> >> I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials and I >> >> am beginning to sense method in my madness. >> > I'm glad you were willing able to wade through my gallop of >> > observations/reflections/experiences with these two highly central >> > creatures in my household. >> >> I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank. >> > Very much so, as I experience with many cats, she does not reach as far >> > into human psyche/nature to meet me as most dogs (Hank in particular) >> does. >> >> So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self >> >> conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method goes >> >> something like this >> >> >> >> We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is >> conscious. >> > >> > I think you know from my pan-consciousness self-diagnosis that all of >> > the things I am inclined to report about Cyd also applies to the >> > hummingbirds, the lizards she stalks, and the fish Hank barks at. >> > >> > Cyd has a very highly adaptive sensorimotor system which not only allows >> > her to be good at stalking and catching lizards but also at begging her >> > people to let her out to do so, or to give her a helping of "second >> > dinners" like the hobbit she channels. She observes, considers, acts, >> > observes the consequences of her acts (the book falling from the top of >> > the bookcase when she traverses it too rambunctioiusly, the way Mary >> > jumps up and lets her out when she hits the right note of plaintive >> > meow, the way the lizard freezes when it senses her). This is an >> > overwhelming indication of consciousness in my apprehension of the >> world. >> > >> > We were implying that an animal's "Love" or "loving relationship with" a >> > human familiar had something to do with consciousness. I think that is >> > a red-herring, I don't think the lizards love Mary when she frees them >> > from Cyd's jaws, but I do think they are acutely conscious. >> > >> >> From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is conscious, >> >> he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than >> >> otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we now >> >> add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if >> >> other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non conscious >> >> ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious >> >> beings do. >> > >> > See above... A==sense, B==process, C==respond. I don't know that A, >> > B, C singularly without both of the others even makes sense. >> > >> > The fish in the pond are almost continuously in some level of motion, >> > they appear to be sensing with their photon and olfactory and >> > vibration/pressure-wave sensors. They respond to signals (shadow of >> > human or dog looming over pond, insect landing on the surface of the >> > pond, bit of high-nutrient food sinking in the pond) by bolting or >> > gulping or seeking more input (curiosity). While a lot of their >> > processing may be prewired/instinctive, I do believe that part of their >> > processing is in support of "learning". The dragonflies who like the >> > high-ground of the tips of everything they can alight on seem yet more >> > automatic/instinctual yet they appear (because I project?) to learn... >> > they appear to become more and more tolerant of my approaching them the >> > more I do it? They likely recognize that despite the appeal of the tip >> > of my car antennae, the tips of the cat-tails in the pond seem to be >> > more appealing given the likely food-flux they can spy and grab from >> > that vantage (but this is a just-so projection since I'm not a very >> > disciplined naturalist, I really have nothing but anecdotal >> observations). >> > >> > So perhaps D might be "learn"... >> > >> > Which takes me to the trees and bushes I feel a strong >> > affinity/familiarity with. Do they A, B, C (and even D?). I say yes. >> > They don't have lenses over their photo-receptors, but since their >> > primary/singular energy gathering activity is photonic/light, they >> > clearly sense light. They also seem to be able to extend root growth >> > toward water and nutrients, or along same said nutrients... this >> > represents A and C as does growth "reaching" growth out from under the >> > shade to gather more light? What about B? B would seem to be entirely >> > pre-wired processing, not adaptive at the scale of the individual >> > single-lifetime organism? Which spills over to "learning" (D) which >> > maybe isn't happening at the scale of the individual... does a branch or >> > root keep "reaching" even if it gets stymied over and over? I'm not >> > sure. So if B and even D are required for "consciousness" then perhaps >> > it is only a population of such organisms and the germline phenotypic >> > expression which we must acknowledge some level of "proto-consciousness" >> > to? >> > >> > To go on down the line of lower-and lower complexity entities or systems >> > i'd have to grasp further and seek the existing guidance of others in >> > the pan-consciousness world who have worked through this in their own >> ways. >> > >> > Bottom line, is that the "bottom line" of consciousness feels very hard >> > for me to even begin to want to draw between Hank and Cyd or where it >> > excludes Lizzy or Fishy or DraggyFly or any and all of the >> > yet-less-familiar creatures they stalk and eat. Interesting that all of >> > these are predators, no? >> > >> > Yet another free-associateve gallop? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> > archives: 5/2017 thru present >> > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> >> >> -- >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >> Clark University >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > > > -- > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology > Clark University > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University
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