I agree with glen that inter-individual interactions/observations will not get
to where Nick seems to want to go. Because that was the stated starting point
of the thread, I went along, to see if i was wrong.
Nick: *"For me; the heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on
the part of an agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to
think what sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience."*
I can offer no anecdotes to assist. I do have lots of stories about
self-awareness in a variety of contexts. All of them lead to the conclusion
that, "I" am NOT *"one of those that others are." (obviously there is some
marginal overlap)*
Of course this is based entirely on what 'others' are willing/able to publicly
reveal about them*S*elves.
davew
On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 10:02 AM, glen wrote:
> It still seems backwards to me. The anecdotes about inter-individual
> interactions don't indicate consciousness at all. [1] The move to
> self-consciousness would be more appropriate. For example, my cat
> clearly exhibits a (or several) feedback loop(s) when grooming a grass
> burr out of his fur. (Or a dog walking in circles for a full minute
> before finally lying down.) This is a marker for a very high order
> consciousness. An indicator for lower (but still quite high) order
> consciousness is the lengthy consideration of the water bowl as he
> decides whether or not it's quality is proper or if he should go drink
> out of the ditch. [2] Such reflection is a hallmark of consciousness
> for me. And it's founded in, composed of, lower order feedback loops of
> interoception.
>
> In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that consciousness is only
> indirectly relevant to inter-individual phenomena at all. We can get a
> full panoply of complex behavior out of collections of very stupid
> individuals. To study consciousness, you need a cohesive system capable
> of exhibiting allostasis. Using 2 such individuals in such studies
> explodes the variables you need to consider, obscurum per obscurius.
>
> [⛧] Witness concepts like "mansplaining" and "cringe", inter-individual
> interactions denying (some aspect of) the subjects' consciousness, yet
> confirming the observers' consciousness. Trans-agent phenomena are ripe
> for abuse and imputation. This is why the Turing test was designed the
> way it was. It blurs the analogical replacability requirements across
> simulation, emulation, and authenticity. Were we to be scientific about
> this, we'd try to control for/against simulation and emulation, which
> means eliminating inter-individual contexts to the extent we can.
>
> [2] These are not anthropomorphic. I have no idea or projection onto
> what he's thinking when he does these things. However, I do engage in
> anthropomorphization when I see him trying to decide whether to stay
> inside or go outside when I open the door. I imagine some heuristic
> weighting between interactions with the other animals in the house or
> those outside the house.
>
> On 7/18/24 18:10, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be. Our
>> shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals we
>> are in interaction with are conscious.
>>
>> Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do about
>> that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to resolve
>> it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution?
>>
>> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the heartland
>> of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an agent, that A
>> is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what sort of
>> anecdote would elicit such an experience.
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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