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On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, 3:36 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks, Dave, > I tried to set two ground rules, here: One is simply that we try to find > ways to a common understanding. I recognize that the best way to get > there might be to go into battle together, or drink a lot whiskey together, > or drop acid together, but my puritan upbringing forbids those methods. So, > the second is that we do it by sharing concrete experiences, rather than > airy references to philosophers or links to voluminous publications, or, in > my case, vast insertions of my published works. . > > So, if you have a better procedure for meeting those rules lets try them. > > Nick > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 1:15 PM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> > wrote: > >> Nick, >> >> apologize for immediate last post being on this thread - it is indeed >> veering into metaphysics (oh boy fun). >> >> >> However, what was said, was indeed anecdotes about my 'experiences' >> vis-a-vis consciousness. Are such impermissible in this conversation? If >> Dr. Lilly were to join us share anecdotes about dolphin consciousness or, >> heaven forbid, about dropping acid with the dolphins, would they be useful >> for our conversation? >> >> I am totally sympathetic with the program here, (and do not see it as a >> game, zero-sum or otherwise) but often feel as if I am constrained by >> invisible rules. May I share stories only about cats, Dusty, and Jackson? >> Perhaps the answer is implicit in your baby-steps dictum: yes, for now, >> with anecdotes about dragons and unicorns deferred until we have obtained >> some degree of consensus as to domestic mammals? >> >> When we do eventually turn to "self-consciousness" I have many anecdotes, >> but fear they will be deemed "irrelevant" or "metaphysical" or >> idiosyncratic (Holy Self???) and excluded; making consensus of any kind >> impossible. >> >> davew >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 11:48 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >> >> Hi, everybody. We are veering into meta again. Ugh. >> >> Where Nick is trying to get is a method for him and David and Jochen to >> converse productively about consciousness. A productive conversation, for >> Nick, is one that produces agreement, at least agreement on the terms of >> disagreement. Anecdotes come in because I am beginning to think that >> anecdotes lie at the core of how we understand ourselves and our worlds. >> Every anecdote is a fable with a moral, implicit or explicit. I tell an >> anecdote which to me means the cat is conscious; if the cat is conscious, >> than other anecdotes must be relevant. You chime in with your anecdotes. >> We are building a consensus for what it means for a cat to be conscious. >> With that agreement in hand we now turn to "self-conscious". >> >> Of course, lurking behind all of this is the question of whether >> agreement is desirable or whether we all prefer our Holy Individuality. I >> hear Dave saying, "I am happy to play your agreement game, but in the end I >> prefer my Holy Individuality." But in the end, I don't think there is >> anyway to play "my" game as a zero-sum game, without any hankering for a >> common outcome. >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 11:32 AM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> >> wrote: >> >> >> I agree with glen that inter-individual interactions/observations will >> not get to where Nick seems to want to go. Because that was the stated >> starting point of the thread, I went along, to see if i was wrong. >> >> Nick: *"For me; the heartland of self-consciousness would be an >> awareness on the part of an agent, that A is one of those that others >> are. I am trying to think what sort of anecdote would elicit such an >> experience."* >> >> I can offer no anecdotes to assist. I do have lots of stories about >> self-awareness in a variety of contexts. All of them lead to the conclusion >> that, "I" am NOT *"one of those that others are." (obviously there is >> some marginal overlap)* >> >> Of course this is based entirely on what 'others' are willing/able to >> publicly reveal about them*S*elves. >> >> davew >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 10:02 AM, glen wrote: >> > It still seems backwards to me. The anecdotes about inter-individual >> > interactions don't indicate consciousness at all. [1] The move to >> > self-consciousness would be more appropriate. For example, my cat >> > clearly exhibits a (or several) feedback loop(s) when grooming a grass >> > burr out of his fur. (Or a dog walking in circles for a full minute >> > before finally lying down.) This is a marker for a very high order >> > consciousness. An indicator for lower (but still quite high) order >> > consciousness is the lengthy consideration of the water bowl as he >> > decides whether or not it's quality is proper or if he should go drink >> > out of the ditch. [2] Such reflection is a hallmark of consciousness >> > for me. And it's founded in, composed of, lower order feedback loops of >> > interoception. >> > >> > In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that consciousness is only >> > indirectly relevant to inter-individual phenomena at all. We can get a >> > full panoply of complex behavior out of collections of very stupid >> > individuals. To study consciousness, you need a cohesive system capable >> > of exhibiting allostasis. Using 2 such individuals in such studies >> > explodes the variables you need to consider, obscurum per obscurius. >> > >> > [⛧] Witness concepts like "mansplaining" and "cringe", inter-individual >> > interactions denying (some aspect of) the subjects' consciousness, yet >> > confirming the observers' consciousness. Trans-agent phenomena are ripe >> > for abuse and imputation. This is why the Turing test was designed the >> > way it was. It blurs the analogical replacability requirements across >> > simulation, emulation, and authenticity. Were we to be scientific about >> > this, we'd try to control for/against simulation and emulation, which >> > means eliminating inter-individual contexts to the extent we can. >> > >> > [2] These are not anthropomorphic. I have no idea or projection onto >> > what he's thinking when he does these things. However, I do engage in >> > anthropomorphization when I see him trying to decide whether to stay >> > inside or go outside when I open the door. I imagine some heuristic >> > weighting between interactions with the other animals in the house or >> > those outside the house. >> > >> > On 7/18/24 18:10, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >> >> All, >> >> >> >> I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be. >> Our shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals >> we are in interaction with are conscious. >> >> >> >> Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do >> about that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to >> resolve it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution? >> >> >> >> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the >> heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an >> agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what >> sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience. >> > >> > -- >> > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ >> > >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> > archives: 5/2017 thru present >> > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> >> >> -- >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >> Clark University >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> >> >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > > > -- > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology > Clark University > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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