Hi, everybody. We are veering into meta again. Ugh. Where Nick is trying to get is a method for him and David and Jochen to converse productively about consciousness. A productive conversation, for Nick, is one that produces agreement, at least agreement on the terms of disagreement. Anecdotes come in because I am beginning to think that anecdotes lie at the core of how we understand ourselves and our worlds. Every anecdote is a fable with a moral, implicit or explicit. I tell an anecdote which to me means the cat is conscious; if the cat is conscious, than other anecdotes must be relevant. You chime in with your anecdotes. We are building a consensus for what it means for a cat to be conscious. With that agreement in hand we now turn to "self-conscious".
Of course, lurking behind all of this is the question of whether agreement is desirable or whether we all prefer our Holy Individuality. I hear Dave saying, "I am happy to play your agreement game, but in the end I prefer my Holy Individuality." But in the end, I don't think there is anyway to play "my" game as a zero-sum game, without any hankering for a common outcome. Nick On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 11:32 AM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> wrote: > I agree with glen that inter-individual interactions/observations will not > get to where Nick seems to want to go. Because that was the stated starting > point of the thread, I went along, to see if i was wrong. > > Nick: *"For me; the heartland of self-consciousness would be an > awareness on the part of an agent, that A is one of those that others > are. I am trying to think what sort of anecdote would elicit such an > experience."* > > I can offer no anecdotes to assist. I do have lots of stories about > self-awareness in a variety of contexts. All of them lead to the conclusion > that, "I" am NOT *"one of those that others are." (obviously there is > some marginal overlap)* > > Of course this is based entirely on what 'others' are willing/able to > publicly reveal about them*S*elves. > > davew > > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2024, at 10:02 AM, glen wrote: > > It still seems backwards to me. The anecdotes about inter-individual > > interactions don't indicate consciousness at all. [1] The move to > > self-consciousness would be more appropriate. For example, my cat > > clearly exhibits a (or several) feedback loop(s) when grooming a grass > > burr out of his fur. (Or a dog walking in circles for a full minute > > before finally lying down.) This is a marker for a very high order > > consciousness. An indicator for lower (but still quite high) order > > consciousness is the lengthy consideration of the water bowl as he > > decides whether or not it's quality is proper or if he should go drink > > out of the ditch. [2] Such reflection is a hallmark of consciousness > > for me. And it's founded in, composed of, lower order feedback loops of > > interoception. > > > > In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that consciousness is only > > indirectly relevant to inter-individual phenomena at all. We can get a > > full panoply of complex behavior out of collections of very stupid > > individuals. To study consciousness, you need a cohesive system capable > > of exhibiting allostasis. Using 2 such individuals in such studies > > explodes the variables you need to consider, obscurum per obscurius. > > > > [⛧] Witness concepts like "mansplaining" and "cringe", inter-individual > > interactions denying (some aspect of) the subjects' consciousness, yet > > confirming the observers' consciousness. Trans-agent phenomena are ripe > > for abuse and imputation. This is why the Turing test was designed the > > way it was. It blurs the analogical replacability requirements across > > simulation, emulation, and authenticity. Were we to be scientific about > > this, we'd try to control for/against simulation and emulation, which > > means eliminating inter-individual contexts to the extent we can. > > > > [2] These are not anthropomorphic. I have no idea or projection onto > > what he's thinking when he does these things. However, I do engage in > > anthropomorphization when I see him trying to decide whether to stay > > inside or go outside when I open the door. I imagine some heuristic > > weighting between interactions with the other animals in the house or > > those outside the house. > > > > On 7/18/24 18:10, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > >> All, > >> > >> I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be. > Our shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals > we are in interaction with are conscious. > >> > >> Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do > about that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to > resolve it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution? > >> > >> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the > heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an > agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what > sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience. > > > > -- > > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > archives: 5/2017 thru present > > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University
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