I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials and I am beginning to sense method in my madness.
I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank. So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method goes something like this We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is conscious. >From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is conscious, he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we now add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non conscious ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious beings do. N On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 7:22 PM steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > Hank my dog (with whom I have a loving relationship but who loves and is > loved my Mary) barks at the TV when a barking sound emanates from it. If > he sees a dog-figure cavorting on the screen he barks more vigorously even > if the barking sounds ceases. If he sees *any* animal like figure on the > TV he *may* bark at it, depending on what else is going on in the room (or > inside his head) He even sometimes barks at little kid figures... but > not as much. > > <gallop> Next to the TV is what I call "bird TV" something of a picture > window where we have both hummingbird and conventional bird feeders. He > watches the birds but does not bark at them. When they might fly into the > window or toward it, veering off, he sometimes alerts and charges but does > not bark. The other day he was barking out the window at the ground > vigorously... there was a 6' long red-racer snake staring back at him/us > which casually turned around and slithered off. He only quit barking when > it was no longer evident. He barks directly into the window-pane at > neighbors and vehicles at the end of our drive and at the sound of sirens > and 18 wheelers engine-braking on the highway. The sound of his bark has > to be reflecting right back into his little ears but that doesnt' slow him > down. For a while he would hear his own bark resonating in our steel > spiral staircase which was a high pitched near-echo? He would bark then > turn around to see who was "barking?" behind him, then satisfied turn > around and bark at the window again, rinse, repeat.... he did this off and > on for months but now seems entirely bored with it. If we make any noises > mistakeable for a bark (like a chair or table leg drug abruptly) he barks > in the general direction of the bark. We have a lifesize photograph of > his head with ears flying as he pops up over our entry gate... we have > shown it to him on the canvas as well as displayed on the television. He > is totally uninterested. If we hold him up to the TV to see what he is > barking at more closely, he paws at the screen but ceases barking when his > sniffing self determines that the thing he is barking at has no smell and > cant be reached through the glass.</gallop> > > I still think he is acutely conscious and has a self-awareness, but it > probably isn't registered on the things we want to project onto him... > sight and sound matter for attention I think, but i suspect smell is key to > recognition? > > Our cat (Cyd, with whom we both have a loving relationship but who > ignores most everything but food, especially her name) does not have the > slightest interest in anything on TV in a picture with or without sound, or > even through the window mostly (hummingbirds 5 feet from her perch). Cats > on TV are equally uninteresting to her as anything else. I think she is as > conscious as Hank and fully self-aware, but in an even more foreign sense > to us than Hank. The Red Racer and the Fish in the pond? Absolutely... > but again, yet more foreign. > > Hank (sleeping nearby as I type) presents his dreams a lot more > explicitely than Cyd... I think he is conscious and self-aware in his > dreams in a similar but completely different way as I am... he seems to > wake up alternatively excited or scared as appropriate? > On 7/15/24 4:20 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > In the case of self-recognition, she now does not bark or paw at the > mirror. For months, as a youngster, she would walk by the mirror and be > startled by the movement. Now she ignores it. If she sees me do > something in the mirror, like put down an iPad, she tips her back to look > at me to look at me – as if to see if anything is changing. I can’t > defend the other perception. It is clear she has immediate visual > discrimination of dogs and humans at the dog park, though. > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On > Behalf Of *Nicholas Thompson > *Sent:* Monday, July 15, 2024 3:07 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <friam@redfish.com> <friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV. > > > > Great. Can you describe,in what ever detail seems right, what that > seeming consists of? > > > > nick > > > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 4:47 PM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote: > > Mirror recognition (or usage) took a while for my dog to learn. She seems > perplexed by the fact humans and dogs look different. While I don’t know > she is looking at herself, she seems to understand the difference between > me in a mirror and me right in front of her. She no longer thinks it is > another dog. > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Stephen Guerin > *Sent:* Monday, July 15, 2024 1:17 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Does Dusty Love Dave, and VV. > > > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 10:54 AM Nicholas Thompson < > thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Here is an example If you play a dog's bark back to him, does he respond > as if it's the bark of an intruder? > > If not, that suggest some sort of self recognition mechanism, given that > the bark I give sounds a heluva lot different from the bark I would hear > if if I were the hearer of my own bark. > > > > Nick > > > Dog recognizing its own bark may be close to the self-recognition in > mirror test which dogs and cats fail (and some humans). Dogs do recognize > their own odor in many tests. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test > > +-----------------+---------------------------+ > | Species | Mirror Self-Recognition | > +-----------------+---------------------------+ > | Infants | Yes (18-24 months) | > | Monkeys | No | > | Chimps | Yes (2-3 years) | > | Dolphins | Yes (2-3 years) | > | Democrats | Yes (18-24 months) | > | Elephants | Yes (2-3 years) | > | Magpies | Yes | > | Republicans | Mixed | > | Gorillas | Mixed | > | Orangutans | Yes | > | Pigeons | Mixed | > | Octopi | No | > | Dogs | No | > | Cats | No | > +-----------------+---------------------------+ > > > > Amsterdam, B. (1972). Mirror self-image reactions before age two. > Developmental Psychobiology, 5(4), 297–305. > https://doi.org/10.1002/dev.420050403. > https://redfish.com/papers/Amsterdam-1972-Mirrorself-imagereactionsbeforeagetwo.pdf > EGallup, G. G. (1970). "Chimpanzees: Self-recognition." *Science*, > 167(3914), 86-87. https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.8 > <https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.167.3914.86> > > Reiss, D., & Marino, L. (2001). "Mirror self-recognition in the bottlenose > dolphin: A case of cognitive convergence." *Proceedings of the National > Academy of Sciences*, 98(10), 5937-5942. > https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.101086398 > <https://www.pnas.org/content/98/10/593> > > Plotnik, J. M., de Waal, F. B., & Reiss, D. (2006). "Self-recognition in > an Asian elephant." *Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences*, > 103(45), 17053-17057. https://www.pnas.org/content/103/45/17053 > > > > FWIW, I don't consider self-awareness necessary for consciousness - > though it is an interesting topic to me like theory-of-mind. > > > > -Stephen > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >
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