This would suggest to me either that you don't give a damn about the matter or that you are a believer in Holy Individuality.
So which is it? (};-)] N On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 9:17 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: > Resolution is not necessary for me. > > --- > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > 505 670-9918 > Santa Fe, NM > > On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 7:11 PM Nicholas Thompson <thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> All, >> >> I want to move things along here, but not sure movement would be. Our >> shared anecdotes would seem to suggest that we think that these animals we >> are in interaction with are conscious. >> >> Jochen seemed to disagree. So Jochen, and you all, what should we do >> about that? I regard it as a state of tension, and I am led to want to >> resolve it. Am the only one of us who wants a resolution? >> >> Then, I would lke to pass on to self-consciousness. For me; the >> heartland of self-consciousness would be an awareness on the part of an >> agent, that A is one of those that others are. I am trying to think what >> sort of anecdote would elicit such an experience. >> >> N >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:55 PM Nicholas Thompson < >> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 8:53 PM Nicholas Thompson < >>> thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Have you ever read The Story of a Grizzly by Ernest Thompson Seton (no >>>> rel)? >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:13 PM steve smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Nick, et alii behavioristae - >>>>> >>>>> We have been using "self-conscious" roughly in place of what I >>>>> understand to be "self-aware". I don't think of *many* animals to be >>>>> self-conscious even though I grant warm-bloodeds for sure and other >>>>> vertebrates maybe self-awareness. I've known *domesticates* to >>>>> demonstrate >>>>> self-consciousness... in the sense of "dancing like someone is >>>>> watching"... >>>>> showing off, being shy, etc. >>>>> >>>>> I can add a new character to my gallop of characters here. Yesterday >>>>> I went to the tiny-fish-slave-market (known as PetCo) and purchased for >>>>> about $7 20+ goldfish whose breeding was intended for the "feed other >>>>> pets" >>>>> market. Snakes and ??? not sure what these little guys are normally >>>>> fed >>>>> to. So now I have a whole cohort of characters called "little >>>>> fishies"... one died in the water/air-filled bag on the way home (just >>>>> 30 >>>>> mins, but apparently too much shock)... and once acclimatized and >>>>> released into a smaller pond above the main pond (where the bigger fish >>>>> live), all "little fishies" quickly found their comfort zone swimming >>>>> "upstream" in the circulating current (generated by the pump/recirculation >>>>> feeding from the main pond). One got caught near the spillway swimming >>>>> upstream continuously to avoid going over in the spirit of "swam and swam >>>>> all over the dam, oh damn!" . >>>>> >>>>> A few hours later, a new character enters the tableau: Garter the >>>>> Snake... not a big one, maybe 2 feet long and a body not much thicker than >>>>> a fat pencil. This little fellow panicked when he saw Hank and I >>>>> approach... the thrashed around and around the top pond (2' diameter, >>>>> surrounded by stones) looking for a "way out" that didn't include exposing >>>>> himself yet-more to me (and Hank). After he finally raised his need to >>>>> flee over his fear of direct encounter, I tried counting little fishies, >>>>> but they were too elusive and too busy to really count... but there were >>>>> still "plenty" there. I know snakes to be able to open wide and gulp >>>>> things half again too big for their jaws when closed... The range of >>>>> size >>>>> of "little fishies" seemed to be between "too big" and "way too big" for >>>>> Garter... but probably not. This morning Hank and I went to count >>>>> again >>>>> and the small pond had no evident fish in it. Fortunately the big pond >>>>> showed a good number of the little guys, maybe all of them? I'm guessing >>>>> they all gave up one, by one, resisting "going over the waterfall"... or >>>>> maybe Garter ate all the ones who didn't take the plunge? I've seen both >>>>> Garter's bigger brothers and their second cousin RedRacer in the ponds >>>>> before which may be a better explanation than "Racoons" for why the >>>>> numbers >>>>> of live fish always dwindle over time without any evident floaters (or >>>>> frozen fish-sticks which do happen in winter if I fail to keep the >>>>> circulation going in the coldest periods). >>>>> >>>>> From what I know of *proper* pond culture, if these little guys (or >>>>> the 2-3 times bigger cousins) ever get to be big enough, I will likely >>>>> name >>>>> them individually and begin to project onto them all kinds of >>>>> sentience/consciousness/self-awareness that is easy to not-do when they >>>>> are >>>>> still tiny (<1" long)? Maybe because they are young and still ignorant >>>>> of >>>>> everything but their immediate here/now with little experience to expand >>>>> that. On the other extreme, last time I was at the Rio Grande after a >>>>> big flood period, there were a number of huge (2' long?) carp caught in >>>>> the >>>>> drift/detritus and they didn't strike me in the least as self-aware (maybe >>>>> I'd have felt different if I'd met them while they were still alive?). >>>>> >>>>> As suggested elsewhere in the thread "the ability to model the world >>>>> and run that model forwards and backwards in time" and elaborated in >>>>> Friston's various extrapolations/expansions (Free Energy Principle, >>>>> Dynamic Causal Modeling, Active Inference >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_J._Friston>). >>>>> >>>>> I'm about to launch two other characters into the pond, a leaf-lettuce >>>>> rootlet and a celery rootlet, both started in a bowl on my windowsill. >>>>> Just to see if they can continue to grow aquaponically if I find a way to >>>>> help them float with their roots underwater and their growing leaf-cores >>>>> to >>>>> reach for the sun. They do have sensations (albeit slower/duller? than >>>>> mine or the fishes) and they do execute responses (growing their roots >>>>> into >>>>> the water, growing their leaves into the sunlight/air), albeit slower? >>>>> Conscious? Self-aware? Not really, or if so barely, or perhaps just >>>>> "foreignly and slowly"? I don't imagine they are much if at all aware of >>>>> me, much less my intentions of pulling them apart limb from limb to eat >>>>> them (like I did their clone-parent?). Mary, on the other hand sings to >>>>> her houseplants, and they do seem to thrive compared to when I am in >>>>> charge >>>>> of their water-offerings. I look forward to little fishies nibbling on >>>>> their roots while offering them nitrogen-rich nutrients in the way all >>>>> animals do. >>>>> >>>>> The little (and middle) fishies dance like someone (predators?) are >>>>> watching... the celery and lettuce-lets, not so much? BTW, for all the >>>>> birds visiting the pond, none of them appear to prey on fish... though >>>>> some >>>>> are big on insects... >>>>> >>>>> (typing like nobody is reading).... >>>>> >>>>> - Steve >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 7/18/24 10:33 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, Dave. Sorry if I don]t hold up my end. I am falling behind >>>>> in everything except my capacity to be stirred up by ideas. Bad >>>>> combination. Maybe it's time for Caleb to come and take away my >>>>> keyboard. >>>>> >>>>> So, I now see a new problem in our anecdotal method here: How to >>>>> continue without spinning off into vague agreement. Along with a desire >>>>> to >>>>> achieve agreement comes a desire to delimit it. We agree that all the >>>>> characters in the story are conscious; I am trying to see how we could >>>>> explore the degree of our agreement on the proposition that we are all >>>>> self-conscious. >>>>> >>>>> That's what I am thinking about now, but I am late to THUAM so I am >>>>> going there now. >>>>> >>>>> N >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:41 PM Prof David West <profw...@fastmail.fm> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dusty is conscious of Dusty. One reason: I give Jackson (my other >>>>>>> dog) a treat and observe body language and facial expressions exhibited >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> Dusty that I interpret as, "where's mine?" This indicates to me some >>>>>>> kind >>>>>>> of Dusty self-awareness/consciousness of self. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Could you say more about the body language and facial expressions. >>>>>> Imagine that I am going to take care of your two dogs for a weekend; >>>>>> what >>>>>> would you tell me to look for?* >>>>>> >>>>>> the above is the quote from me email to the list the bold-italic is >>>>>> your request. around the 15th of July. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dusty and Jackson have their own idiosyncratic (notice the >>>>>> attribution of a self-aware consciousness in that word) way of asking >>>>>> for / >>>>>> obtaining what they want. >>>>>> >>>>>> Dusty's way is silent, Jackson's almost always involves a >>>>>> gentle-bark/yip. E.g., Dusty wants a head rub so she comes over and >>>>>> places >>>>>> her chin on my knee and looks soulful. Jackson sits close to my knee, >>>>>> establishes eye contact and vocalizes his request. >>>>>> >>>>>> Both come to my bed at the earliest sign of sunrise (around 5:30 >>>>>> these days) and stare at me. Jackson will eventually vocalize and I get >>>>>> up. >>>>>> Dusty has observed this, daily, for the past N-months but has never been >>>>>> tempted to vocalize herself. >>>>>> >>>>>> if she ever does vocalize, even by accident, I will immediately rise >>>>>> and see if she learns the stimulus-response pattern. >>>>>> >>>>>> I may be seeing nothing more than early training. Dusty's previous >>>>>> owners demanded that she be seen and not heard, and to wait, >>>>>> indefinitely, >>>>>> for explicit invitations. I have no idea about Jackson's early training. >>>>>> >>>>>> davew >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024, at 10:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> David, and all. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am trying to keep this thread as clean of the meta as I can. So I >>>>>> will answer your general critique on the other thread. Suffice it to say >>>>>> here that behaviorism is way in the rear view mirror at this point and I >>>>>> certainly am not trying to teach it. Suffice it to say, also, I am sure >>>>>> I >>>>>> have done all the bad things you point to; I am blundering about here >>>>>> trying to find a way toward shared understandings of experiences. >>>>>> >>>>>> *Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then >>>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, >>>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then >>>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter >>>>>> a >>>>>> small bark/yip while staring.* >>>>>> >>>>>> My command of gmail bring what it is, I cannot find the email where I >>>>>> prompted this elaboration from you. I am sure there is one. i just cant >>>>>> find it. Ok, so lets say we are groping toward a method here, call it >>>>>> critical anecdotalism. Person A tells a story which, intuitively he >>>>>> feels >>>>>> is an example of some experience-type. Person B agrees or disagrees with >>>>>> that attribution. Together we work out what other experiences would >>>>>> follow >>>>>> if this attribution was correct. Here, we might discover that we >>>>>> disagree >>>>>> about the boundaries of the experience-type. But it if we find that we >>>>>> agree on those boundaries, then we search through our experiences for >>>>>> other >>>>>> anecdotes that fall within -- or out of --the type. So, as I read your >>>>>> description, I think, this is an example of "trying to figure out what >>>>>> the >>>>>> heck I have to do to get a treat, around here?" You might then do an >>>>>> experiment, which I understand in this context to be a procedure that >>>>>> provokes an experience that we both would take as decisive. Let's say >>>>>> you >>>>>> start to feed Jackson ONLY when he yips. If, after a few days of that, >>>>>> Dusty doesn't begin to yip, I would be less inclined to my original >>>>>> attribution. >>>>>> >>>>>> It's kind of you to help me with this, Dave. >>>>>> >>>>>> It's quite possible I am just sliding into dementia. Always a risk. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nick >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> davew >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 10:27 AM Prof David West < >>>>>> profw...@fastmail.fm> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> From the beginning, I believed this thread was, in substantial part, >>>>>> Nick's attempt to 'teach' us to think as behavioralists and see how far >>>>>> we >>>>>> could go in achieving some kind of consensus. I tried very hard to couch >>>>>> all of my responses in such terms. I did express, early on, that I had >>>>>> serious doubts about how far we could go without deviating into other >>>>>> questions—and the answer appears to be not far. >>>>>> >>>>>> First I copped to blatant anthropomorphism with seem to be accepted >>>>>> with no concern. >>>>>> Then Nick introduced metaphysics followed by a quick mea culpa. >>>>>> Then a flood of additional metaphsysics (inside/outside), >>>>>> inter-species (human-whale, human-machine) illustrations, definitional >>>>>> nuances (consciousness, awareness, intelligence), and my challenge to the >>>>>> 'approach' because it excluded 'evidence' from meditation or drugs. >>>>>> >>>>>> Although Nick keeps saying he is 'pleased' with responses, I am >>>>>> curious as to whether or not we are really making progress towards >>>>>> consensus of any kind. >>>>>> >>>>>> But, just in case, responding to Nick's last question to me: >>>>>> Dusty will look up, at Jackson, as he is receiving a treat, then >>>>>> stand, in a position I interpret as 'being on alert' and look at Jackson, >>>>>> then at me, then Jackson, then me (sometimes as many as 4-5 times), then >>>>>> 'staring' at me. Jackson does something similar, but he will also utter >>>>>> a >>>>>> small bark/yip while staring. >>>>>> >>>>>> davew >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024, at 11:59 AM, steve smith wrote: >>>>>> > Nick - >>>>>> >> I must say, I am grateful and pleased by all these testimonials >>>>>> and I >>>>>> >> am beginning to sense method in my madness. >>>>>> > I'm glad you were willing able to wade through my gallop of >>>>>> > observations/reflections/experiences with these two highly central >>>>>> > creatures in my household. >>>>>> >> I notice you are much vaguer about Cyd than you are about Hank. >>>>>> > Very much so, as I experience with many cats, she does not reach as >>>>>> far >>>>>> > into human psyche/nature to meet me as most dogs (Hank in >>>>>> particular) does. >>>>>> >> So, in your assertion that Cyd is both conscious and self >>>>>> >> conscious, I am inclined to ask for more details. So the method >>>>>> goes >>>>>> >> something like this >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> We statt with the intouition that because Cyd does X, Cyd is >>>>>> conscious. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I think you know from my pan-consciousness self-diagnosis that all >>>>>> of >>>>>> > the things I am inclined to report about Cyd also applies to the >>>>>> > hummingbirds, the lizards she stalks, and the fish Hank barks at. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Cyd has a very highly adaptive sensorimotor system which not only >>>>>> allows >>>>>> > her to be good at stalking and catching lizards but also at begging >>>>>> her >>>>>> > people to let her out to do so, or to give her a helping of "second >>>>>> > dinners" like the hobbit she channels. She observes, considers, >>>>>> acts, >>>>>> > observes the consequences of her acts (the book falling from the >>>>>> top of >>>>>> > the bookcase when she traverses it too rambunctioiusly, the way Mary >>>>>> > jumps up and lets her out when she hits the right note of plaintive >>>>>> > meow, the way the lizard freezes when it senses her). This is an >>>>>> > overwhelming indication of consciousness in my apprehension of the >>>>>> world. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > We were implying that an animal's "Love" or "loving relationship >>>>>> with" a >>>>>> > human familiar had something to do with consciousness. I think >>>>>> that is >>>>>> > a red-herring, I don't think the lizards love Mary when she frees >>>>>> them >>>>>> > from Cyd's jaws, but I do think they are acutely conscious. >>>>>> > >>>>>> >> From our prior usage of the term, we know that if Cyd is >>>>>> conscious, >>>>>> >> he will do things A, B, C, D, ....N with greater frequency than >>>>>> >> otherwise. We check t o see if this is true. Does Sbe? Ifso, we >>>>>> now >>>>>> >> add Cyd to the list of conscious beings. Now we check to see if >>>>>> >> other conscious beings do X with greater frequency than non >>>>>> conscious >>>>>> >> ones. If so, we have added to the list of things that conscious >>>>>> >> beings do. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > See above... A==sense, B==process, C==respond. I don't know >>>>>> that A, >>>>>> > B, C singularly without both of the others even makes sense. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > The fish in the pond are almost continuously in some level of >>>>>> motion, >>>>>> > they appear to be sensing with their photon and olfactory and >>>>>> > vibration/pressure-wave sensors. They respond to signals (shadow >>>>>> of >>>>>> > human or dog looming over pond, insect landing on the surface of the >>>>>> > pond, bit of high-nutrient food sinking in the pond) by bolting or >>>>>> > gulping or seeking more input (curiosity). While a lot of their >>>>>> > processing may be prewired/instinctive, I do believe that part of >>>>>> their >>>>>> > processing is in support of "learning". The dragonflies who like >>>>>> the >>>>>> > high-ground of the tips of everything they can alight on seem yet >>>>>> more >>>>>> > automatic/instinctual yet they appear (because I project?) to >>>>>> learn... >>>>>> > they appear to become more and more tolerant of my approaching them >>>>>> the >>>>>> > more I do it? They likely recognize that despite the appeal of the >>>>>> tip >>>>>> > of my car antennae, the tips of the cat-tails in the pond seem to be >>>>>> > more appealing given the likely food-flux they can spy and grab from >>>>>> > that vantage (but this is a just-so projection since I'm not a very >>>>>> > disciplined naturalist, I really have nothing but anecdotal >>>>>> observations). >>>>>> > >>>>>> > So perhaps D might be "learn"... >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Which takes me to the trees and bushes I feel a strong >>>>>> > affinity/familiarity with. Do they A, B, C (and even D?). I say >>>>>> yes. >>>>>> > They don't have lenses over their photo-receptors, but since their >>>>>> > primary/singular energy gathering activity is photonic/light, they >>>>>> > clearly sense light. They also seem to be able to extend root >>>>>> growth >>>>>> > toward water and nutrients, or along same said nutrients... this >>>>>> > represents A and C as does growth "reaching" growth out from under >>>>>> the >>>>>> > shade to gather more light? What about B? B would seem to be >>>>>> entirely >>>>>> > pre-wired processing, not adaptive at the scale of the individual >>>>>> > single-lifetime organism? Which spills over to "learning" (D) >>>>>> which >>>>>> > maybe isn't happening at the scale of the individual... does a >>>>>> branch or >>>>>> > root keep "reaching" even if it gets stymied over and over? I'm not >>>>>> > sure. So if B and even D are required for "consciousness" then >>>>>> perhaps >>>>>> > it is only a population of such organisms and the germline >>>>>> phenotypic >>>>>> > expression which we must acknowledge some level of >>>>>> "proto-consciousness" >>>>>> > to? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > To go on down the line of lower-and lower complexity entities or >>>>>> systems >>>>>> > i'd have to grasp further and seek the existing guidance of others >>>>>> in >>>>>> > the pan-consciousness world who have worked through this in their >>>>>> own ways. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Bottom line, is that the "bottom line" of consciousness feels very >>>>>> hard >>>>>> > for me to even begin to want to draw between Hank and Cyd or where >>>>>> it >>>>>> > excludes Lizzy or Fishy or DraggyFly or any and all of the >>>>>> > yet-less-familiar creatures they stalk and eat. Interesting that >>>>>> all of >>>>>> > these are predators, no? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Yet another free-associateve gallop? >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> > to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> > archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>>>>> Clark University >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>>> to (un)subscribe >>>>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>>>> Clark University >>>>> >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >>>>> archives: 5/2017 thru present >>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >>>>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>>> Clark University >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >>> Clark University >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology >> Clark University >> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom >> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam >> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ >> archives: 5/2017 thru present >> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ >> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ >> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -- Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology Clark University
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