Not comedians at all. Deadly serious embodiments of the social bankruptcy of
the entire field of capitalist formations and their ideologues.
S. Artesian
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So - when do Leftists *not vote* for Biden - over this issue? Even facing a
clear threat from (semi?)-fascist Trump?
The question assumes that, save the US support for Israel's invasion of Gaza,
a pro-vote for Biden would be appropriate given a clear threat from a
semi?-fascist.
As vicious as
Good chance this won't make it past the censors, given recent actions or
inaction, but does anyone think a) Israel's attack on Gaza was NOT inevitable?
b) that such attack would not be barbaric in scope and intensity? c) that the
attack would have been carried out without US agreement? d) that
1. Can't resist a good fight
2. There's nothing "great" or "new" about this debate; been going on for
about a century
3. Let's say clearly what's behind this issue: Those who advocate for
Biden/Harris/Lesser Evil are acting from the fear, or wish, that there is no
prospect for independent w
MM takes exception to #3---my assertion that the lesser evilists do not
envision any possibility for independent working class based action in the
here, the now, the (near). MM then presents models of independent parties
failing, disintegrating, being absorbed. I could point out that such
ind
In answer to John's question--of course they are. Trump represents continuity
as much as he does rupture, regardless of what the Cheneys say. Trump,
regardless of the ideological cover is the darling of the same "right" that
adored Reagan; that installed Bush Jr.
So now the ideology discards
"Four years of Trump and the inaction of the state, which should initiate large
investment projects that already exist as plans or introduce measures to
regulate harmful activities that lead to a further increase in CO2, would be a
disaster for the entire world and is in the interest of the work
Ah yes, "first we'll do A, then we'll do B." Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
"Elect Syriza, and then we'll deal with the banks."
Details please comrades--like what's the program, particularly when the
Congress and the courts are chockful of MAGA-ists?
Clearly, our Harris-ites are riding a one-le
Marv--
I refuse to waste time responding to a person who has stated that socialism is
dead and then spends hours on a list-serv in order to kill it all over again.
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I guess this is Marv's way of admitting that he did support Syriza--
Regardless, I wrote a lot about Greece (about 50 articles I think) in 2015-16
starting with this:
https://thewolfatthedoor.blogspot.com/2015/01/relevant-unsectarian-tall-tan-and-fly.html
Those who care can start there and just
So this: It refreshed my memory of the controversies within the left
concerning the Tsipras government, and why the FI’s support of Syriza was
correct doesn't mean MG supports those who supported Syriza. It just means MG
thinks their support is "correct."
And this: I supported the Syriza l
Marv's arguments stand as their own critique. "It's a good issue for
mobilizing a mass movement..." at the same time as it wouldn't undermine class
rule, and the US can "fall in line"---
Meanwhile 36 states in the US have enacted some form of voter suppression laws;
the USSC scraps the core
I know you're right, but there does seem to be a temporary distinction between
the two approaches
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Why is any of thisAngela Davis or some exec of the NLG "coming out" for
Harrisa surprise or anything other than "the usual"? When has Angela Davis
NOT been supporting Democrats?
I think there are two streams running on marxmail urging "vote Harris:" one is
the JR stream, where voting
The above by Marv is nothing but ad hominem argument on a grand scale, as if
one's exposure to the small fraction of the working class that belongs to
unions is virtuous, and provides special knowledge, a pedigree, of and in
radical, socialist, tactics and strategy.
There's something to learn f
On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 10:05 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> a) Is there a mass or even a small mass anticapitalist party which is
> drawing workers away from these parties?
>
> b) Does the other major party to their right represent a real threat to
> the historic democratic rights and social gains
Check post 26079, where MG endorses the FIs position
Marv Gandall (
https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/26079?p=%2C%2C%2C20%2C0%2C0%2C0%3A%3ACreated%2C%2Cposterid%3A6231310%2C20%2C2%2C480%2C101378147
)
09/22/23 #26079 ( https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/26079 )
I apologize for the mistaken
On Sun, Oct 6, 2024 at 07:41 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> It's only two or three active contributors who react as though I'm a
> heretic undermining their faith. They appear to have had little to no
> exposure to unions or social movements, and if they've had some, they were
> the ones standing a
Hari--
This is your contribution to the concrete issues of campaigning for Democrats,
rushing to Marv's defense? Try performing the evaluation of Marv's advocacy of
a "left-liberal" alliance using Marv's own criteria; and then you should do the
same using mine.
But let's parse your heroic def
On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 09:02 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> I'll now again have to deal with my disappointment.
Well, we can't have that. If you check back to post 32365, you'll find my
"recommendations." As to listing "approved" formations, I'm sure there are
some, the scarcity of which, h
Oh Marv, the more distance there is between us, the more hope I have.
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On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 05:36 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> Good question, and Michael M. would be justified in throwing it back at
> you: What are YOU going to do to get Kamala Harris quaking in her boots
> besides sending incendiary emails to Marxmail?
>
>
>
He might be...if I thought Ms. Har
On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 04:45 AM, Michael Meeropol wrote:
>
> we need to say -- WE (progressives) were loyal to you as you played
> footsie with Republicans --- NOW, you have to respond to our proposals
> because they are ALL VERY POPULAR --- she needs to force through the PRO
> Act and the John
What a piece of rot. First the issue isn't the rejection of all confessions,
but the confessions specific to the purges where everyone of the revolutionists
are supposed to confess to being agents of fascism-- except for Stalin of
course. Secondly, this faux rationality that says its too diffi
Dennis points to the fundamental flaw in the so-called "tactical alliance" with
an established bourgeois party against the "greater evil"-- If as the advocates
claim such a maneuver leads to a strengthening of the prospects for an
independent movement, that growing strength necessarily weakens t
https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/32365
Short version: you keep on doing what you're doing. If, OTOH, you believe
entry into the Dem party is "tactically correct" then we are entitled to see
the strategy that informs the tactic and the programmatic basis for that
strategy.
And here's som
On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 04:25 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> The same can't be said of those like Artesian who stand aloof from
> class-based organizations and who do not accept or understand that
> electoral intervention can complement rather than contradict
> extraparliamentary activity, or of tho
An example of Marv's self-control:
>
> As a good and principled revolutionary, you would not have participated in
> the trade union, civil rights, womens' gay, and other social movements
> which sought to translate their demands into legislative reforms through
> the Democratic Party. Or if you
On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 11:44 AM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> Should we take this to to mean that the trade union, civil rights,
> womens' gay, and other social movements should not have sought to
> translate their demands into legislative reforms through the Democratic
> Party? Or through the Labo
On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 03:44 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> As a good and principled revolutionary, you would not have participated in
> the trade union, civil rights, womens' gay, and other social movements
> which sought to translate their demands into legislative reforms through
> the Democratic
Anybody else want to take a stab at answering the questions:
re Walter Daum's assertion, where in the last century has a socialist party
made a "tactical" alliance with a bourgeois party that advanced the
self-organization of the working class?
re the Liar: where has entry into a bourgeois p
On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 04:55 AM, hari kumar wrote:
>
> But I also have a serious rejoinder that Sartesian should consider also
> (at least in my view). That is whatever the historical survey - what
> alternative do you Sartesian propose?
>
> I know that Lenin rightly also
What was that Marv said earlier "If only we could raise both from the dead so
they could speak for themselves. "--? Maybe we should stop speaking for Lenin
et al, and concentrate on historical materialism.
There's an ebb and flow to class struggle? No kidding, but the capitulation to
the Dems
The issue is not, MG to the contrary notwithstanding, what this or that
individual does or advocates as an individual. The issue is what an
organization of socialists, holding that a class conscious workers' movement is
the sole agency for achieving that socialism does and advocates in the att
On Wed, Oct 16, 2024 at 05:50 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> But, as has been said many times before (1) historical materialism is the
> most relevant method of analysis, even though Marxism as prophecy has
> fallen well short, and (2) While there is no discernible prospect for
> socialism at presen
As General Sheridan, assigned as the military commander responsible for Texas
after the Civil War reportedly said: "If I owned both hell and Texas, I'd rent
out Texas and live in hell."
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On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 11:46 AM, Walter Daum wrote:
>
> But they did not rule out tactical support for bourgeois parties who
> defended, for their own reasons, democratic rights that the working class
> needed for its self-organization.
Examples, please, where tactical support was made, where i
On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 07:16 PM, Charlie wrote:
>
> Well, above I quoted a document in which Trotsky's comrade in the
> Comintern laid out undoing socialism and going over to capitalism. "IIRC"
> does not stand up
You didn't provide a document, you provide a reference to a book by Grover
Fur
Grover Furr is the problem. IIRC not a single document made available after the
collapse of the Soviet regime has provided factual evidence for Furr's
accusations.
Grover Furr over here. vote for Dems over there, what a big tent this list is.
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On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 12:39 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> I don't need to be told about the need to take into account the
> relationship of forces in a labour or any other conflict.
But apparently he does need to be told 1) about uneven and combined development
and 2) the distinction between se
Exactly. What Lenin and Trotsky thought 70 years before the event has no
bearing on historical materialism or their grasp of the problems that led to
the collapse. It's historical materialism; not clairvoyance.
Mendacious Marv was surprised? Ten years after Solidarity erupted in Poland;
aft
David-- because he confessed to being Trotsky's comrade; just like all the
old Bolsheviks confessed to being Nazis. Just like Zinoviev and Kamenev
plotted Kirov's murder; just like immigrants are eating house pets in Ohio.
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Identify the "primary documents." "confessions" and other testimony given
during the purges. do not amount to "documents."
We know where this goes: POUM were fascists; the cordones in Chile were
ultra-left adventures. All the Bolshevik leadership of 1917 turned out to be
fascists in deep co
On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 02:52 PM, wrote:
>
> Examples, please, where tactical support was made, where it led to working
> class self-organization, in the last 75 years, and LRP agreed with that
> specific tactical alliance.
Walter, maybe you missed it. Got any fries to go with that shake?
-=
On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 11:23 PM, Anthony Boynton wrote:
>
> The original topic of whether or not a campaign to end the electoral
> college is a good idea,
Using the solitary demand, without connecting it to its class origin and class
purpose and without connecting it to the other expressions of
On Thu, Oct 3, 2024 at 11:53 AM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> This would seem to be a powerful democratic demand capable of mobilizing
> the Democratic base and even many Republicans, a near-majority of whom
> also favour doing away with the present constitutional arrangement. Have
> the Greens or any
On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 03:32 PM, Glenn Kissack wrote:
>
> The family of the Czar and the families of imperial army officers were not
> civilians working on kibbutzes
Glenn,
Transpose the conflict to Algeria, Vietnam, or even better, South Africa in the
19th or 20th century. The colonized pop
I must have missed an episode in Marv's version of the Beatles "Come Together.)
but
1) Where and how does the reproduction of a text by Lenin against the
categorical rejection of participating in elections or parliament indicate a
"making of common cause" of Stalinist and Trotskyists, when the
On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 10:47 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> The revolutionary left similarly miscalculated in the aftermath of WW I
> and the Russian Revolution, notably in Germany and Hungary, which also
> ultimately resulted in a genocide
??? Are you seriously suggesting that the left's "miscalc
On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 09:55 PM, gojko rakic wrote:
>
> Without democracy, there is no socialism. 'The Soviet Union in the Stalin
> era' is not socialism.
Not the issue, is it. The fSU wasn't "socialist" because Stalin's rule was
"undemocratic." The fSU wasn't socialist because the revolutio
Yes, I've read it, although I have not read many of the people he criticizes in
his essay. It seems to me that it's quite possible to disagree with Lenin's
theory without denying a) the existence of imperialism b) the fundamental fact
that advance of class struggle in the so-called advanced ca
Let's see if I understand Marv correctly: Challenging MG to provide some
evidence for his claim that the "list" would not welcome JFB's essay is proof
that the "list" does not welcome JFB's essay.
I don't know what you call that in logic class, but I call it f$%ked up. and
supremely.
-=-=-=-
On Mon, Nov 4, 2024 at 02:00 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> At first glance, pretty much everything from #4 on, though I'm not about
> to do a search of the archive to produce a footnoted report. To be clear,
> I don't agree with certain forumulations in the essay but I do strongly
> agree with its
^^Indeed.
The usual rationalization is that there is no working class ferment that
warrants a "break" with established liberal-left parties, but we see that time
after time in those times and places where such class ferment does exist, the
rationalists cling to the alliance with the liberal-le
Thanks for the clarification
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#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneo
And here I was thinking that a united front was specifically class-based, with
programs designed to unite the working class independently of
bourgeois-democratic institutions and organizations. It always seemed clear to
me that the soviets were the most highly developed form of a united front
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 07:49 PM, William Chaney wrote:
>
> one proof in the effectiveness of wolff's marxism is that he has reached
> millions of people with a radical message, and many of those people have
> actually sprang into action. i understand (or perhaps prematurely assume)
> that most
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 06:05 PM, John Reimann wrote:
>
> Here is a statement of dozens of Palestinian and Arab community leaders
> calling for a vote against Trump, meaning a vote for Harris. of course,
> this statement won't have the least effect on the so-called "Marxists" on
> this list who h
Is it possible, Marv and Charlie in agreement?
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#1 YOU MU
Hari--
The questions of detection and enforcement are the greatest challenges and I am
not suggesting that posts be "screened" for AI content--as that would probably
some sort of AI "gatekeeper" program itself. However, a simple statement by
the moderators indicating that posting of AI generat
On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 01:39 AM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> as though he really does represent a major obstacle to our taking power.
To be certain, the concern is not that Gojko represents any obstacle to "our"
taking power. That's not the issue at all. The problem is one of historical
accurac
So it's not a strategy, not a program, so how does it lead to a "mass
movement"--history of the 20th and 21st century shows us that "progressive mass
movements" are initiated outside the Democratic Party and then the party
becomes their burial ground.
Exactly what are the issues that can be wo
Gojko is not making an argument. He is once again citing the assertions of
others that assume what must be proven. To paraphrase esteemed moderator --the
value of Gojko's statements is a big fat zero.
Everything you need to know about that zero is summed up by this:
"Yet, though she is a main
Marv,
We resolved the issue of your support for Syriza about a year ago when I
reproduced a 2015 post of yours. I'm happy to post it again if you like. You
can go on and on about Drachma instead of euro, but to my recollection, you
never agreed with the calls for a no-confidence vote agai
Gojko's ignorance of the US bourgeoisie's actions since 1973 is painfully clear
to the most casual observer.
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All I want to know is how you can proclaim a fidelity to historical
materialism at the same time as you believe socialism is dead.
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On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 04:02 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> The reason I'm on the list is because I look at past and present through
> an historical materialist lens, as do many others on the list who have
> shared many of the same political experiences. Examining social reality
> doesn't always l
Waiting for Dr. Strangelove or How I learned to stop worrying and love the
Democrats:
"Yet, though she is a mainstream Democrat with all that implies — a supporter
of American capitalism and imperialism, a person dependent on the banks and
corporations, one who will become commander in chief of
On Mon, Sep 30, 2024 at 06:51 AM, gojko rakic wrote:
>
> " *Trump’s presidency was qualitatively different from any previous
> Republican, and today he is a real threat to democratic rights in America
> in a way that no Republican candidate has been before. The differences
> between the Trump can
Maybe I haven't been clear. Can anybody identify a mass movement initiated by
working within the Democratic Party-- apart fromthe slaveholders' rebellion
and anti-Reconstruction and Asian exclusion?
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That thread barely moves the needle on the flame-0-meter. The issue is as the
issue was, As a tactic ,does voting for the Democratic ticket represent an
effective response to the convergence of the Republicans with fascists without
hindering the prospects of independent class-based movement?
We'll see, won't we? Beside, you might have lost a step. How could you let
this, from MG slip by unchallenged: " The more than 70 million voters and
counting who have turned to Trump are not "desperately hungry and homeless",
but they are nevertheless experiencing a general crisis of unaffordab
"It’s characteristic of many intellectuals across the political spectrum
outside of the working class to look down on the tens of millions of its
Republican supporters as crazies and deplorables and on the tens of millions of
its Democratic Party supporters as belonging to a middle class aspirat
On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 04:18 AM, hari kumar wrote:
>
> However I also think it is worth remarking that there is one major omission
> ( maybe that is the wrong word - see below). It seems to me, there is a
> very clear refusal to acknowledge that Lenin very clearly - and in
> whatever relevant wri
WTF does that, whether or not a segment of the US working class supports Trump
have to do with supporting Biden or Harris? As I said o n the other thread,
back in the day in Detroit it was known that there were KKK members in some
locals trying to appeal to white workers. So what? Was that re
Link doesn't work. go to home page---lrp-cofi.org.
Meanwhile, no surprise here. Question for Walter--looking back, should have
urged voting for H. Clinton?
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Maybe Walter fixed it?
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#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous te
On Thu, Oct 17, 2024 at 10:56 AM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> I was replying to Artesian's comment that, unlike Lenin, Trotsky, and the
> Bolsheviks who took power, a true historical materialist would have
> understood from the outset that the USSR could not survive
I never said any such thing. Mar
On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 11:24 AM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> The unhappy and misguided masses who turned in desperation to Trump as a
> change candidate in the hope he will make food, shelter, and other
> essentials more affordable
Somehow, I don't' buy that the "masses who turned to Trump" were the
Well, no---The Fugitive Slave Act and the resistance to it were like the
overturning of RvW in 2022, and the aftermath then--protest defiance, but still
the institution of slavery survived. We know what it took to end that and it
sure wasn't making greater demands on progressives. Now "the oth
On Wed, Nov 6, 2024 at 11:47 AM, Michael Meeropol wrote:
>
> the ruling class will rush to kiss Trump's ass it is up to we the
> people to figure out creative ways to resist.
>
> One thing that history might help with is referring to the 1850s when
> enforcement of the fugitive slave law st
Gov abbreviation for *h* ouse *h* old *i* ncome
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#1 YOU MUS
I don't think the leader of a church that sanctioned slavery, religious
persecution and slaughter, and has long covered up the endemic molestation of
children by its officials, has a single thing to contribute to the struggle for
the emancipation of labor. Likewise Chris Hedges positively citi
But that being said--"Newsom/Shapiro in '28!" Right, MG. MM. JR etc ??
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Those who voted for Trump this time will turn out to be the same as those who
voted for him in 2020 and 2016--not the poor, precariously standing between
grinding and abject party. 2016 studies showed that counties where the
household income was above average were more likely to support Trump;
On Sun, Nov 10, 2024 at 08:44 PM, Charlie wrote:
>
> some even joined with pro-fascist students in breaking the picket lines to
> reopen the school.
I call bullshit. The attempts to crack the picket lines were the product of
"Breakthrough" organized by Donald Lobsinger. I had experience with
Here's a real live matter that absolutely demands the creation of a united
front, along class lines:
Trump's supposed choice for head of DHS has reportedly stated that workplace
raids to seize "undocumented" workers will resume after Jan 20./
So I would think, as a exercise in UF tactics right
On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 04:28 PM, Barry Brooks wrote:
>
> Will the PBS show tomorrow about the 1898 racist coup dare to make any
> mention of the more important fascist coup attempt in 1933. General
> Smedley Butler ratted out the biz types who wanted him to run their
> fascist coup. It was not a
Clearly, the united front is like the weather: everybody talks about it, but
nobody can do anything when faced with the actual environment. Just sayin
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Here's a hypothetical for you: Trump besides declaring a state of emergency
and using the military to imprison and expel those designated as migrants,
decides to follow through on a threat and has Biden arrested to face trial at
military tribunal.. Probably less far-fetched than "anyone at the
On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 04:42 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> But if Bhaskar Sunkara, to use my example, or for that matter anyone else
> associated with the DP, asked you to help provide marshalling and other
> services and to coordinate your activities with the main body of the
> demonstration, incl
Anyone? Really? War criminals on the losing side of an intra-class fight? Klan
members? Oath keepers? How can you know if it's "arbitrary"?
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On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 06:31 PM, Mark Baugher wrote:
>
> So what if the leader of the single-issue coalition, which I called a
> "united front," spent decades in the labor movement and the coalition had
> a large collection of unions participating in the march? That describes
> the National Peace
On Sun, Nov 10, 2024 at 03:03 PM, Mark Baugher wrote:
>
> How would a multi-issue coalition have changed that besides making the
> opposition to the Vietnam War in the US smaller? The multi-issue
> coalitions failed during this time to move the needle. Do you think that
> the right set of demands
Keerist, Marv, for someone who throws around hypotheticals, you sure get fussy
about which hypotheticals qualify as hypothetical. So to cut through the
evasiveness. try this:
1. In 2009, the Honduran Cobra Squadron arrested and deported the president.
Mass demonstrations followed.
2. Nobody s
On Sat, Nov 9, 2024 at 10:16 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
>
> I can't imagine anyone on this list would choose to stand apart from such
> a movement
The question was intended to focus on the formal alliance, so let me rephrase:
Do you join the structured organization representing those Democrats and
JR,
To put it mildly, your personal grievance is tedious and irrelevant. And your
criticism is disingenuous. Nobody denied the threat represented by Trump. Your
opponents did not think supporting Harris was an effective means of meeting
that threat.
Trump received 75 million vote, about 1 mil
I think we're missing the point here, and that includes Engels-- the issue is
why now at this moment the bourgeoisie have flipped from "free trade" to
"tariffs"? The answer to that is clearly overproduction of a whole series of
"raw" and finished commodities threatening profitability.
-=-=-
Doesn't really make the case for the ceasefire agreement being a "political
defeat" for Israel--particularly there is no immediate withdrawal of Israeli
armed forces. There is a "gradual withdrawal" contingent on the placement of
the Lebanese Army, and there is no effective Lebanese Army, even
I guess MM missed the irony-- depression as economic depression;
professional, as Lenin deployed the term in WITBD
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