On 07/22/2013 08:30 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
Well, assuming people use the local machine for reading their mails, and
not Thunderbird or so and not GMail and so on, or Zimbra or whatever
else people actually read mails with these days... None of these even do
local message reading.
Thunder
+1
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-Original Message-
From: Kevin Fenzi
Sender: devel-boun...@lists.fedoraproject.org
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 16:12:03
To:
Reply-To: Development discussions related to Fedora
Subject: Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Sendmail
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 03:13:33AM +0300, Oron Peled wrote:
> On Wednesday 24 July 2013 13:23:08 Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > On Tue, 23.07.13 04:03, Oron Peled (o...@actcom.co.il) wrote:
> > > There are two issues however:
> > > * The log-splitting of journald is really nice feature. But it does
On Wednesday 24 July 2013 13:23:08 Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Tue, 23.07.13 04:03, Oron Peled (o...@actcom.co.il) wrote:
> > There are two issues however:
> > * The log-splitting of journald is really nice feature. But it doesn't
> >work for cron:
> > $ echo '* * * * * /bin/echo "T
On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:10:05 -0700
Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-07-24 at 11:14 -0500, Billy Crook wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Frank Ch. Eigler
> > wrote:
> > > It's tempting to carry this argument too far. We can be first
> > > with good new ideas; first with experiment
On Wed, 2013-07-24 at 11:14 -0500, Billy Crook wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote:
> > It's tempting to carry this argument too far. We can be first with
> > good new ideas; first with experimental stuff; first with additions.
> > We need not be first with bad ideas
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 02:09:53PM +0200, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
> >Should we change cron to be using syslog by default if this feature gets
> >approved?
> Why? If you don't have MTA, it doesn't try to send email. I won't
> plan change anything.
It might be nice for it to be able to do both.
--
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 01:23:08PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> >So this issue is still outstanding (but I'll bet you knew that)
> Also as mentioned on this thread, this doesn't work for cron right now
> as cron actually collects all log output of a job and then posts it
> under its own i
On 07/15/2013 10:36 AM, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
> = Proposed System Wide Change: No Default Sendmail =
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoDefaultSendmail
>
> Change owner(s): Lennart Poettering , Matthew
> Miller
>
> No longer install an MTA by default. (Specifically let's remove sendmai
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote:
> It's tempting to carry this argument too far. We can be first with
> good new ideas; first with experimental stuff; first with additions.
> We need not be first with bad ideas (and discussions here are a way of
> figuring out good from ba
Am 24.07.2013 15:58, schrieb Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek:
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 02:11:18PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>>
>> Le Mer 24 juillet 2013 13:11, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
>>
>>> The second part of my mail that you conveniently removed actually
>>> explains why that doesn't work
Am 24.07.2013 13:11, schrieb Lennart Poettering:
> On Mon, 22.07.13 19:33, Reindl Harald (h.rei...@thelounge.net) wrote:
>
>> Am 22.07.2013 18:29, schrieb Lennart Poettering:
>>> If you want to centralize system configuration, rather then services,
>>> then go ahead and do, that, but actually ce
Lennart Poettering writes:
> [...] essentially boils down to "I hate change". Which is an OK
> opinion to have, but certainly not four Fedora, where the four Fs
> mean "Freedom, Friends, Features, First". The "First" indicates that
> we should be pioneers, and *not* the guys who never change bec
Le Mer 24 juillet 2013 15:58, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek a écrit :
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 02:11:18PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>>
>> Le Mer 24 juillet 2013 13:11, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
>>
>> > The second part of my mail that you conveniently removed actually
>> > explains why that d
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek
wrote:
>> Here, done, time elapsed: 1 min googling.
> Great. But does this really solve anything except refuting the most
> immediate statement by Lennart, taken out of context?
'Context' does not ameliorate a foundation of false statem
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 02:11:18PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>
> Le Mer 24 juillet 2013 13:11, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
>
> > The second part of my mail that you conveniently removed actually
> > explains why that doesn't work: because the SASL auth is inherently
> > per-user configuratio
On 07/22/2013 05:36 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
Also, cronie will split up the messages
by line anyway if it logs to syslog instead of sendmail.
That sounds particularly horrible for concurrent cron jobs that would
thus have their output interleaved in the log.
--
Bob Nichols "NOSPAM" is
Le Mer 24 juillet 2013 13:39, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
> This is particularly a bad argument as most Linux distribution
> installations do not include an MTA anymore (Ubuntu is substantially
> more popular than Fedora, and not just on the desktop). There's enough
> reason to believe that the
Le Mer 24 juillet 2013 13:11, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
> The second part of my mail that you conveniently removed actually
> explains why that doesn't work: because the SASL auth is inherently
> per-user configuration but in sendmail you can configure it only
> globally for the client side.
On 07/24/2013 01:11 PM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
On 07/23/2013 10:18 AM, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
As a part of cronie upstream I should probably answer. Cron was
patched long time ago to log into syslog if mail can't be send. There
is also option for using syslog by default.
Should we
On Tue, 23.07.13 11:52, Billy Crook (billycr...@gmail.com) wrote:
> Default should include what people 'generally expect of a GNU+Linux
> system' -- and that includes an MTA. It should include a syslog, and
> it should include screen too for that matter.
This is the "let's do this out of traditi
On Tue, 23.07.13 04:03, Oron Peled (o...@actcom.co.il) wrote:
> > > Cron was already mentioned, but every one seem to ignore the fact that
> > > regular users don't have permission to read system logs.
> >
> > journald actually splits out user logs and use filesystem ACLs to ensure
> > that the u
On 07/23/2013 10:18 AM, Marcela Mašláňová wrote:
As a part of cronie upstream I should probably answer. Cron was
patched long time ago to log into syslog if mail can't be send. There
is also option for using syslog by default.
Should we change cron to be using syslog by default if this featu
On Mon, 22.07.13 19:33, Reindl Harald (h.rei...@thelounge.net) wrote:
> Am 22.07.2013 18:29, schrieb Lennart Poettering:
> > If you want to centralize system configuration, rather then services,
> > then go ahead and do, that, but actually centralize *the configuration*,
> > not the service. In pa
On Tuesday 23 July 2013 02:34:25 Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Tue, 23.07.13 03:14, Oron Peled (o...@actcom.co.il) wrote:
> > BTW: nobody ever answered how desktop users are supposed to read the
> > output of their cron-jobs (they don't have permissions to read logs).
> Actually, if you'd lo
On Monday 22 July 2013 20:18:04 Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 03:14:32AM +0300, Oron Peled wrote:
> > BTW: nobody ever answered how desktop users are supposed to read the
> >
> > output of their cron-jobs (they don't have permissions to read logs).
>
> They do have permiss
Le Mer 24 juillet 2013 08:30, drago01 a écrit :
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Billy Crook wrote:
>> Default should include what people 'generally expect of a GNU+Linux
>> system' -- and that includes an MTA.
>
> Citation needed. Given that one very distribution with a very big
> userbase do
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:52 PM, Billy Crook wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Matthew Miller
> wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:18:47AM -0500, Billy Crook wrote:
>>> > Since it _isn't_ served via DHCP in any environment I'm aware of, that's
>>> > not
>>> > actually useful.
>>> Nice
On Tue, 2013-07-23 at 11:52 -0500, Billy Crook wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Matthew Miller
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:18:47AM -0500, Billy Crook wrote:
> >> > Since it _isn't_ served via DHCP in any environment I'm aware of, that's
> >> > not
> >> > actually useful.
> >
Once upon a time, Matthew Miller said:
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 06:21:45PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> > Look, the proposal is not calling to replace sendmail, it's calling to
> > remove any MTA. So "sendmail is a bad MTA" is not a good argument for this
>
> No, it's *really* not calling to
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 06:21:45PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Look, the proposal is not calling to replace sendmail, it's calling to
> remove any MTA. So "sendmail is a bad MTA" is not a good argument for this
No, it's *really* not calling to "remove any MTA". It's calling for no MTA
to be in
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Matthew Miller
wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:18:47AM -0500, Billy Crook wrote:
>> > Since it _isn't_ served via DHCP in any environment I'm aware of, that's
>> > not
>> > actually useful.
>> Nice to meet you Matt. As of this morning, it is served via DHCP
Le Mar 23 juillet 2013 17:05, Matthew Miller a écrit :
>> I say... servers should definitely have a default MTA.
>
> We've never had any luck defining what a Fedora server looks like. That's
> why I think it's better to have servers start from minimal and you can
> build
> up in kickstart. There,
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:18:47AM -0500, Billy Crook wrote:
> > Since it _isn't_ served via DHCP in any environment I'm aware of, that's not
> > actually useful.
> Nice to meet you Matt. As of this morning, it is served via DHCP in
> mine. There's also that guy earlier in the thread. So now you
Am 23.07.2013 16:37, schrieb Matthew Miller:
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 07:33:25PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> which could be *easy* solved by ask the users SMTP and credentials
>> at the installation, setup /etc/aliases as default forwarding the
>> messages to this address and configure SASL a
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Matthew Miller
wrote:
> Since it _isn't_ served via DHCP in any environment I'm aware of, that's not
> actually useful.
Nice to meet you Matt. As of this morning, it is served via DHCP in
mine. There's also that guy earlier in the thread. So now you know
of tw
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:57:15AM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:
> But, personally, I agree with billycr...@gmail.com...
> On the servers I run, and the server applications I've written,
> the use of email is mandatory and the use of an MTA is the
> best, most-efficient way to deal with the email.
> I s
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:03:16AM -0500, Billy Crook wrote:
> > Also, though, please be aware that "some individual sat down and installed
> > this system" may not always be our main use case. All of these "configure it
> > on install" suggestions don't help us with the cloud image at all.
> I see
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:57:15AM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote:
> But, personally, I agree with billycr...@gmail.com...
> On the servers I run, and the server applications I've written,
> the use of email is mandatory and the use of an MTA is the
> best, most-efficient way to deal with the email.
None
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Matthew Miller
wrote:
> Also, though, please be aware that "some individual sat down and installed
> this system" may not always be our main use case. All of these "configure it
> on install" suggestions don't help us with the cloud image at all.
I see no reason a
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Martin Langhoff wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Billy Crook
> wrote:
> > Sendmail or otherwise, an MTA BELONGS in Default.
>
> There is no consensus on that, at all. Very successful competitors to
> Fedora have removed it, and their users are happy.
>
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 09:10:00AM -0500, Billy Crook wrote:
> No. You are wrong. When Sendmail is on the chopping block because
> "let's just send anything that should get mailed, to systemd instead,
> and let it pop up pretty graphical bubbles because nobody reads mail
> anyways", the two are v
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 07:33:25PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> which could be *easy* solved by ask the users SMTP and credentials
> at the installation, setup /etc/aliases as default forwarding the
> messages to this address and configure SASL authentication
That really is only useful on a singl
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Billy Crook wrote:
> Sendmail or otherwise, an MTA BELONGS in Default.
There is no consensus on that, at all. Very successful competitors to
Fedora have removed it, and their users are happy.
m
--
martin.langh...@gmail.com
- ask interesting questions
- don
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:32 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 03:13:28PM -0500, Billy Crook wrote:
>> I would love to see the day systemd is as polished, ubiquitous, and
>> robust as smtp. But until that happens, nobody is helped by removing
>> MTA from the default install. We'r
Am 22.07.2013 18:51, schrieb Lennart Poettering:
> On Fri, 19.07.13 14:47, Frank Ch. Eigler (f...@redhat.com) wrote:
>
>>> And it's just not possible to automatically configure e-mail. [...]
>>
>> As for outgoing SMTP, DHCP packets can identify servers; so can DNS
>> heuristics.
>
> I have yet
Am 22.07.2013 18:29, schrieb Lennart Poettering:
> If you want to centralize system configuration, rather then services,
> then go ahead and do, that, but actually centralize *the configuration*,
> not the service. In particular, because a centralized client-side SMTP
> service is a really questi
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 03:13:28PM -0500, Billy Crook wrote:
> I would love to see the day systemd is as polished, ubiquitous, and
> robust as smtp. But until that happens, nobody is helped by removing
> MTA from the default install. We're not there yet, and theres no
systemd and SMTP are not re
On Mon, 2013-07-22 at 12:25 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:25 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Even running the latest and greatest rawhide nothing desktop-side
> >> caught a very basic event like a failing disk!
> >
> > GNOME Disks is supposed to pop up a notificati
On 07/15/2013 03:45 PM, Sérgio Basto wrote:
On Seg, 2013-07-15 at 10:36 +0200, Jaroslav Reznik wrote:
= Proposed System Wide Change: No Default Sendmail =
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/NoDefaultSendmail
Change owner(s): Lennart Poettering , Matthew
Miller
No longer install an MTA by
Hi,
On Monday 22 July 2013 21:15:14 Lennart Poettering wrote:
> The point I am trying to make is that if you have something that is
> vulnerable to a DoS attack you need to have a strategy to handle
> that.
A very simple strategy exists -- alias root's mail to a regular user.
I previously said
Hi,
On Monday 22 July 2013 20:33:32 Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Sun, 21.07.13 01:50, Oron Peled (o...@actcom.co.il) wrote:
> > OK, I won't count mailx and mutt because we talk about different audience,
> > should we open bug-reports for the rest? (kmail? evolution?)
>
> Goog luck filing bugs
On Tue, 23.07.13 03:14, Oron Peled (o...@actcom.co.il) wrote:
> On Monday 22 July 2013 21:00:36 Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > If you argue from the viewpoint of how universially available an API is
> > to make it "standard", then I would like to remind you that there are
> > probably more Ubuntu i
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 03:14:32AM +0300, Oron Peled wrote:
> BTW: nobody ever answered how desktop users are supposed to read the
> output of their cron-jobs (they don't have permissions to read logs).
They do have permissions to read journal entries that come from their
userid.
--
Matthe
On Monday 22 July 2013 21:00:36 Lennart Poettering wrote:
> If you argue from the viewpoint of how universially available an API is
> to make it "standard", then I would like to remind you that there are
> probably more Ubuntu installations in the world thatn Fedora
> installations, and they haven'
On Mon, 22.07.13 19:29, Matthew Miller (mat...@fedoraproject.org) wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:36:19AM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > journald is in theory fine with 2^64 bytes per message. In practice (due
> > to the CPU cost of compressing large blobs with XZ while we write it to
>
On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:36:19AM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> journald is in theory fine with 2^64 bytes per message. In practice (due
> to the CPU cost of compressing large blobs with XZ while we write it to
> disk) a few MB should be fine. Also, cronie will split up the messages
> by line
On Mon, 22.07.13 15:26, Robert Nichols (rnicholsnos...@comcast.net) wrote:
> On 07/22/2013 11:36 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> > I am pretty sure that most of the stuff we currently mail
> >(like the log output of cron jobs) simply makes no sense as mail, and
> >should much rather be treated exa
On 07/22/2013 11:36 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
I am pretty sure that most of the stuff we currently mail
(like the log output of cron jobs) simply makes no sense as mail, and
should much rather be treated exactly like all other log output. There's
nothing special really about cron that would
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lennart Poettering
wrote:
> On Fri, 19.07.13 13:17, Billy Crook (billycr...@gmail.com) wrote:
>> Sendmail stays in Default unless there is compelling reason to switch to
>> postfix, exim, meta1, etc. Those users who wish to remove it are welcome
>> to do so. Nob
On Mon, 2013-07-22 at 21:10 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Le Lun 22 juillet 2013 20:23, Adam Williamson a écrit :
>
> > Just before this one gets any worse: it was Nicolas Mailhot who started
> > talking about banks sending email for some reason, not Miloslav.
>
> Please do not attribute me wha
On Mon, 22.07.13 19:19, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Lennart Poettering
> wrote:
> > On Mon, 22.07.13 18:43, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Lennart Poettering
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Fri, 19.07.13 20:22, M
Le Lun 22 juillet 2013 20:52, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
> This is not a valid argument. We cannot keep extending the core all the
> time by adding more and more redundant components to them, just because
> we believe this will cause APIs to be tested.
No one is asking to extend the core. You
Le Lun 22 juillet 2013 20:23, Adam Williamson a écrit :
> Just before this one gets any worse: it was Nicolas Mailhot who started
> talking about banks sending email for some reason, not Miloslav.
Please do not attribute me what I didn't write. I didn't bring banks in
the discussion.
--
Nicola
Le Lun 22 juillet 2013 20:40, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
> I find it quite amazing that you actually use multiple different MUAs in
> parallel. I mean, most people stick to one MUA usually, maybe two. But
> you make it sound as if you need to access your emails through 5 or 10
> or so, so that
On Mon, 22.07.13 16:04, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 9:20 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 04:09:32PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> >> the problem i see is when things like MTA and rsyslog are
> >> removed from the defualt install many pakcg
Le Lun 22 juillet 2013 19:28, Matthew Miller a écrit :
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 06:53:24PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>> What makes cron and smtpd work well together is that they both perform
>> async background computing. And many cron messages are not "logs"
>> they're
>> notifications of an
On Sun, 21.07.13 16:09, Reindl Harald (h.rei...@thelounge.net) wrote:
>
> Am 21.07.2013 16:05, schrieb Matthew Miller:
> > On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 08:58:39AM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> >> it. Yet the "something better" never materialized. When I had a disk go
> >> wrong lately I was notified
On Mon, 22.07.13 18:50, Nicolas Mailhot (nicolas.mail...@laposte.net) wrote:
>
> Le Lun 22 juillet 2013 18:29, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
>
> > If you want to centralize system configuration, rather then services,
> > then go ahead and do, that, but actually centralize *the configuration*,
> >
On Sun, 21.07.13 01:50, Oron Peled (o...@actcom.co.il) wrote:
> On Friday 19 July 2013 15:46:25 Adam Williamson wrote:
> > ... We don't set up any mail reader to read this mail out of the box.
>
> OK, I won't count mailx and mutt because we talk about different audience,
> should we open bug-repo
On Sat, 20.07.13 18:05, Lars E. Pettersson (l...@homer.se) wrote:
> On 07/15/2013 07:54 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> >Well, we don't even install any MUA by default currently that would read
> >local mail spools. Effectively, this means that currently the log output
> >of cronjobs is more or l
On Jul 22, 2013, at 10:25 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
>
>> Even running the latest and greatest rawhide nothing desktop-side
>> caught a very basic event like a failing disk!
>
> GNOME Disks is supposed to pop up a notification when SMART reports
> pre-fail status for a disk, I think. I suppo
On Mon, 2013-07-22 at 19:09 +0200, Miloslav Trmač wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Lennart Poettering
> wrote:
> > On Mon, 22.07.13 18:43, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Lennart Poettering
> >> wrote:
> >> >> Application that want to log s
mån 2013-07-22 klockan 18:36 +0200 skrev Lennart Poettering:
> Despite that I am pretty sure that most of the stuff we currently mail
> (like the log output of cron jobs) simply makes no sense as mail, and
> should much rather be treated exactly like all other log output. There's
> nothing special
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 06:53:24PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> What makes cron and smtpd work well together is that they both perform
> async background computing. And many cron messages are not "logs" they're
> notifications of an event the cron is polling for, or submission of job
> results.
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 06:50:17PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Actually, with the various Fedora MUAs I've used, it ended up being easier
> to configure them to use local MTA as relay
If you are able to configure the MTA of your choice, then you
will be able to install that MTA when you need it
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Lennart Poettering
wrote:
> On Mon, 22.07.13 18:43, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Lennart Poettering
>> wrote:
>> > On Fri, 19.07.13 20:22, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:16
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 06:36:41PM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> Let's not forget: this is not about removing software from the
> distro. This is just about removing it from the default install, since
> the current way it is set up by default it just eats up messages
> silently, with not indic
On Sat, 20.07.13 09:00, Robert Nichols (rnicholsnos...@comcast.net) wrote:
> On 07/15/2013 09:14 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
> >This feature is about not doign local mail delivery by default, by not
> >installing any MTA. Instead you find the log output of cronjobs at the
> >same place as you fi
On Mon, 22.07.13 18:43, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Lennart Poettering
> wrote:
> > On Fri, 19.07.13 20:22, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:16 PM, Matthew Miller
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 07:37
On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Miloslav Trmač wrote:
> However, having the /usr/sbin/sendmail API available to applications
> is valuable - it brings a significant system administration benefit of
> centralizing the SMTP configuration.
>
Then the app packaging can have a dependency on sendmai
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 7:00 PM, Lennart Poettering
wrote:
> On Mon, 22.07.13 18:43, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Lennart Poettering
>> wrote:
>> >> Application that want to log shoud log. Applications that want to
>> >> send e-mail should send e-ma
Le Lun 22 juillet 2013 18:29, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
> If you want to centralize system configuration, rather then services,
> then go ahead and do, that, but actually centralize *the configuration*,
> not the service. In particular, because a centralized client-side SMTP
> service is a rea
Le Lun 22 juillet 2013 18:36, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
> There's
> nothing special really about cron that would make it so much better
> suitable for sending out its logs per mail, rather then just log them.
What makes cron and smtpd work well together is that they both perform
async backgro
On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Lennart Poettering
wrote:
> On Fri, 19.07.13 20:22, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:16 PM, Matthew Miller
>> wrote:
>> > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 07:37:35PM +0200, Miloslav Trmač wrote:
>> >> However, having the /usr/sbin/sendma
On Fri, 19.07.13 14:47, Frank Ch. Eigler (f...@redhat.com) wrote:
> > And it's just not possible to automatically configure e-mail. [...]
>
> As for outgoing SMTP, DHCP packets can identify servers; so can DNS
> heuristics.
I have yet to see my first DHCP server in the wild that actually supplie
On Fri, 19.07.13 20:22, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:16 PM, Matthew Miller
> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 07:37:35PM +0200, Miloslav Trmač wrote:
> >> However, having the /usr/sbin/sendmail API available to applications
> >> is valuable - it brings a sig
On Fri, 19.07.13 13:17, Billy Crook (billycr...@gmail.com) wrote:
> Sendmail stays in Default unless there is compelling reason to switch to
> postfix, exim, meta1, etc. Those users who wish to remove it are welcome
> to do so. Nobody is stopping them. The default configuration of sendmail
> pos
On Fri, 19.07.13 19:37, Miloslav Trmač (m...@volny.cz) wrote:
> However, having the /usr/sbin/sendmail API available to applications
> is valuable - it brings a significant system administration benefit of
> centralizing the SMTP configuration.
Sure it is valuable. However, it's also a pretty bad
On Sun, 2013-07-21 at 18:55 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Where is the desktop notification solution in Fedora? There is none able
> to even remotely approach the capabilities of the cron + MTA bits you so
> dislike.
You're ascribing emotions to a proposal where none exist. No-one said
they 's
Am 21.07.2013 21:20, schrieb Matthew Miller:
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 04:09:32PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> the problem i see is when things like MTA and rsyslog are
>> removed from the defualt install many pakcgers will less
>> care about them in the future nor test how well it works
>
> Th
On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 9:20 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 04:09:32PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> the problem i see is when things like MTA and rsyslog are
>> removed from the defualt install many pakcgers will less
>> care about them in the future nor test how well it wor
On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 04:09:32PM +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
> the problem i see is when things like MTA and rsyslog are
> removed from the defualt install many pakcgers will less
> care about them in the future nor test how well it works
That's a separate issue. MTAs and syslog are going to be
Le Dim 21 juillet 2013 20:24, Chris Murphy a écrit :
>
> On Jul 21, 2013, at 10:55 AM, "Nicolas Mailhot"
> wrote:
>> (state-of-the-art as in, what are Google
>> and Amazon using to notify their users of events? Mail messages!>
>
> If you're talking about google calendar events, email is used onl
On Jul 21, 2013, at 10:55 AM, "Nicolas Mailhot"
wrote:
> (state-of-the-art as in, what are Google
> and Amazon using to notify their users of events? Mail messages!>
If you're talking about google calendar events, email is used only because even
with Chrome the pop-up notifications only work
On 07/21/2013 03:17 AM, drago01 wrote:
On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Nicolas Mailhot
wrote:
Le Sam 20 juillet 2013 21:14, Adam Williamson a écrit :
I asked for evidence, not hypotheses. All you are currently doing is
making an assertion, over and over and over and over again.
Pot, kettle
Le Dim 21 juillet 2013 16:05, Matthew Miller a écrit :
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 08:58:39AM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>> it. Yet the "something better" never materialized. When I had a disk go
>> wrong lately I was notified by the big ugly legacy system. I had *zero*
>> notification by all the
Am 21.07.2013 16:05, schrieb Matthew Miller:
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 08:58:39AM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>> it. Yet the "something better" never materialized. When I had a disk go
>> wrong lately I was notified by the big ugly legacy system. I had *zero*
>> notification by all the "better"
On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:20:27AM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Then make something better. Removing the system you feel is not good
> enough is not making something better, it's hoping for someone else to
> scratch your hitch.
I don't think this hyperbole is useful to the conversation. First,
On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 08:58:39AM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> it. Yet the "something better" never materialized. When I had a disk go
> wrong lately I was notified by the big ugly legacy system. I had *zero*
> notification by all the "better" systems that were given as "evidence".
> Because th
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