> My simple idea is to analyze first moves near the last move on board,
> ...
> Ofcourse we can extend this idea by gathering not only one last move but
> few of them and on this basis create priority queue.
Sounds reasonable. But it will still require you to go through far too
many moves. The mor
>>> My simple idea is to analyze first moves near the last move on board,
>>> ...
>>> Ofcourse we can extend this idea by gathering not only one last move but
>>> few of them and on this basis create priority queue.
>>
>> Sounds reasonable. But it will still require you to go through far too
>> man
>> > It is said if has 4 stones handicap, every Pro will accept games play
>> > with God even if bet his life.
> ...
> iirc it is 1/3 of a stone betwen pro-dan ranks.
I'm glad somebody brought that up. When pros talk about 2-3 stones they
are talking 6-9 ranks, meaning "god" (i.e. perfect play) is
>>> I believe that MC will be the only way to write a GO program in the
>>> near future leaving the other stuff in the dust ...
> ...
> I am certain it is for 19x19. Just look at the KGS games of Mogo on
> 19x19. I played one game against it, and won. I got the feeling it was
> slightly easier to
> I think stl vector implementation on my linux box takes much more memory than
> necessary (I mean using a memory pool, and a big time against memory
> tradeoff), so perhaps being carefull, with 16 GB we could reach 20 minutes.
The STL vector is fairly efficient, especially if you are using
res
>> reserve(). But if you are allocating same-size blocks then there is a
>> quality memory pool in boost. It is hidden in one of the "details"
>> directories, but I've been using it for a long time for my Chain class.
>
> Here's a link to the documentation of that library:
> http://boost.org/libs/
>> Amazon Elastic Compute Cloud might be cheaper @ $0.10 per instance-hour
>> consumed.
>
> doesn't the 'amazing amazon elastic waistband' require you to write
> all of your code using windows-based hooks? that kind've turns me off.
You may be confusing with "Amazon Simple Storage Service" (w
>>You can always make a bigger board. ...
> ...
> raw computing power isn't the only way. Mathematical solutions might
> easily reduce the search space just enough to allow a full search of
> what's left of it.
I fully agree, assuming your definition of "mathematical" allows
multiple techniques,
like this mailing list, CGOS, open source
projects, etc.
By data I mean things like: game records, or board positions, marked up
with correct/incorrect moves; game records generally; pattern libraries;
test suites; opening libraries.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http
d the top programs).
Darren
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http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash,
t know, it could just be coincidence.)
Darren
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http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
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http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (
tion is
perhaps I can help them all by working on a really good opening library
(or connection patterns, or optimized UCT implementation, or whatever is
needed most).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
res of the game on the larger
board size, but 19x19 is too big too experiment with some brute-force
ideas on today's hardware. I believe 13x13 is the perfect test-bed for
the next algorithmic breakthrough.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English
other major go servers.)
Darren
--
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open source dictionary/semantic network)
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1.1
So, it seems 8.5 komi may favour white.
Darren
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raries, etc.?
I'd also be interested to hear how inefficient the cluster was (e.g.
1000 CPUs won't be doing 1000 times the number of playouts, there must
be some overhead).
Darren
*: Sorry, I've forgotten the new term we are supposed to use.
--
Darren Cook, Software Rese
ose there is indirectly some go
opening knowledge (aka "good shape") in the heavy playout algorithms.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
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> Yes, MoGo gained much more from the longer time setting than Mr. Kim
> did. Note that Mr. Kim used very little of his time in the one-hour
> game. He said after the match that using more time would not have helped
> him.
I imagine that is typical as white in a handicap game; you play solid,
good
t infinite time. That doesn't
> seem like an ideal situation for solving it.
I believe go, on any size board, is already solved (using the minimax
algorithm) in both finite time and memory. (At least for a ruleset
using super-ko; I'm not so sure about Japanese rules.)
Darren
--
Da
of papers to read:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?ComplexityOfGo
[2]: (Sorry, cannot find the URL at the moment.)
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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http://dcook.o
oughts of against
> computers among people.
People like that will get emotional whichever words you use.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/sem
game (e.g. move 6 in 9x9 go, move 30 in 19x19 go).
Or it could keep adjusting komi (until it reaches the actual komi) so
that it thinks it is only just winning.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
nerally, has anyone seen increases/decreases in overall
strength from explicitly checking for seki at leaf nodes?
I remember reading that when nakade support was adding to Mogo it made
it slightly stronger at 9x9, but weaker at 19x19. Was this version
released, and can nakade support be switc
s them a 90% (+/- 20%) win
(against themselves). (I.e. I'm saying their error margin in the opening
is much greater than the difference in their estimate of move values.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-Germa
lutter its eyelids across the board every
now and again.
(In case anyone says I forgot the smiley, I'm being serious: people will
mind losing less to a pretty machine than losing to a cube of metal;
just as an elderly man would rather the above android helps them to the
toilet than something
n that very small experiment, faking komi chooses different moves,
but they are probably equally good.
Darren
--
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http://dco
xperiment to perform.
Darren
--
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http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (bl
lel).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash
it still uses MCTS.
(I hope someone will let me know if not, as I'd then have to sit up and
readjust my view of the universe :-).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dicti
ance intended. (E.g. maybe an arc can be
a forced sequence of more than one move, or something like that)?
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dco
>> Has anyone tried implementing the ideas in Richard Hunter's "Counting
>> Liberties"
No, but I did make a test suite that included many of the interesting
positions (it also included many others of my own creation, both for
semeai and tactical search). (And, though almost all the positions were
cond Mogo would do on that :-).
Darren
[1]:
http://www.top500.org/blog/2008/06/14/preview_31st_top500_list_world_s_most_powerful_supercomputers_topped_world_s_first_petaflop_s_system
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chine
d any pro 13x13 games. There
seems to be a few games played by strong amateurs on servers, and again
the rankings tend to match 19x19, but 9x9 seems much more popular.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
o
.
>> We will have at least the same number of cores, probably more, and we
>> will very likely have a better hardware -
>> the infiniband network should be available, and this makes a big
>> difference.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
ht
> Congratulations!
Yes, well done David. I see Many Faces won even without getting the loss
to Mogo reversed.
> I was surprised to hear that there were now only thirteen entrants. Why
> did Prof. Chen withdraw Go Intellect?
I think he was having computer trouble and the loan computer would hav
> investment. If we can find corporate sponsors, it should not be hard
> to gain access to such hardware. Reading between the lines, I think
> some Microsoft wunderkind may be backing Dave Fotland.
It seems Microsoft are selling such hardware and approached David while
looking for some applicati
>> I think with komi = 7.5 white
>> is scoring very high (too high?) in the top games.
> ...
> Looking only at games among the top 5 rankers
> there are 20 games so far (including two tiebreak-games)
> with 15 wins for White and 5 Wins for Black.
>
> Looking at all games among the top 7 rankers
>
to the Microsoft Mouse...)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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ation of binary-trees, it is using
threads, while the C++ version is single-threaded.
Lots of apples and oranges comparisons here :-).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictiona
ark.php?test=knucleotide&lang=all
> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=knucleotide&lang=gpp&id=1
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://
t working code for a tech spec :-).
My concern is that to include all the rules of go, including capture
logic, you need a few hundred lines of code, which might put some people
off.
Perhaps some game with similar game tree properties but less complex
logic would be a better choice. (I'm w
alter the
quality of play are likely to apply equally to all languages anyway.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and
ess,...
Hi Claus,
You'll probably enjoy an article I wrote last year on this theme:
http://dcook.org/compgo/article_the_problem_with_random_playouts.html
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
ite win, yet pure random playouts think black
will win more often.
Darren
>> http://dcook.org/compgo/article_the_problem_with_random_playouts.html
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open sour
s why uniform simulations are badly biased; solidly connected
stones almost always win against more loosely connected but perfectly
sound formations, causing the program to play very heavy and
inefficiently."
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-
bot as a module"
approach in a whole bunch of scripting languages.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my wo
hough i have no hard-data to give
> you, it gave me a fair result.
Another thing I've picked up from this list is that when you get that
hard, statistically significant data you can frequently be surprised ;-).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.or
>>... the average game-length played was 119 moves. ...
> ...
> 111 is for random games. What the bots actually do is far from random.
Or perhaps, if they can make a 9x9 game last 119 moves, it is not *that*
far from random ;-).
Darren
___
computer-go
an
artificially created game where humans run rings around the computers I
would also like to hear about it.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http:/
hat they'll not be
beaten any time soon.
David, is MCTS likely to be useful for Arimaa?
Darren
[1]: Though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabble#Computer_players is
ambiguous about if computer scrabble players are stronger than human
players or not.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Develo
moving from C++'s std::map to
std::tr1::unordered_map was from 28s to 19.8s. Perhaps the difference
was even bigger on older CPUs, but in this case we certainly want to
stick with hashing.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese
the end of the game.
If that is as clear as mud let me know and I'll try to hunt up an
example game.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dc
package/framework which allows me to train my software.
This page, recently started by Eric Marchand, might be a good starting
place:
http://ricoh51.free.fr/go/engineeng.htm
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
that, as sometimes adding knowledge that seems really
fundamental for human players does not seem to help, even before
allowing for the extra CPU cycles used.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
computer-go.org/msg09759.html
[2]:
http://remi.coulom.free.fr/Amsterdam2007/
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
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http://dco
ers with ranks varying from 2-kyu to 2-dan are
actually 6- or 7-dan players "in the real world".
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://d
e is like trying to
use a precision screwdriver to hammer in a three-inch nail: your tool
will break before you get any worthwhile results.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary
8/eng/
--
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open source dictionary/semantic network)
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ers on the hardware challenges/solutions?
Darren
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http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org/blogs.ht
and won by resignation. Making crazy stone 4 or 5 dan, by Japanese
> standards. Maybe 2-3 dan European?
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
htt
> If you find a Japanese 7p who can give a Korean 1p 2 stones and win, I
> will eat my hat...
No one mentioned Korean professionals. But, as far as I know, a Japanese
7p should be able to give a Japanese 1p 2 stones and win 50% of the
time. Roughly.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Rese
>> It would have been much more persuasive if you had simply run a 5K
>> playout bot against a 100K bot and see which wins more. ...
>
> I may do that, although personally I would be far more cautious about
> drawing conclusions from those matches, as compared to ones played
> against a strong ref
dan amateur. So, going back to the original 7 handicap against a 4p
situation, then if it is an even game it implies black is about 1 dan
(Japanese).
With all the usual disclaimers about the large error margin on a sample
of just 1 game :-).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http:/
;t see the seki then white has a 2.5pt win, so this
is just the standard MCTS playing for a 0.5pt win.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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http://dcook.org/wor
just always says everything is alive?
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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open source dictionary/semantic network)
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http
discover when that is good or bad.)
Darren
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urkers, so
even if giving a talk in Timbuktu there may turn out to be someone
living locally!)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/wo
Hi Remi,
Thanks for the reply. There are so many parameters to tune and
heuristics to try, and having two types of search (playouts and the
MCTS) doubles the number of knobs! (More than doubles, as there is the
interaction to consider too.)
> I did not try your position. But understanding seki is
x27;t seem to find a PDF link.)
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er could also run traceroute before and during the game to get a
fair idea of what is reasonable net lag for that particular client.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/seman
97ms on first try to
the 10th hop)
real0m9.297s
user0m0.000s
sys 0m0.004s
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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awful lot of
time to spare when you don't have any.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work
monte carlo version will always out perform any static
evaluation, given the same overall time (*). But it would be interesting
to know.
Darren
*: Or run the experiment giving the static evaluation four times the
clock time, on the assumption there is more potential for optimization
in complex code.
bit further in the game).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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pre-allocated pool of Chain objects, which use
std::vector, or fixed-size arrays, to store liberties. So I'm using a
lot more memory. If your idea actually works and is just as quick then
of course I'm interested.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (E
playout always goes to the endgame. Strong endgame play in the playouts
should make a program stronger at all stages of a game.
What do you think? Is such a endgame problem suite useful?
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-
ing has changed, libego does light playouts faster
than any other program. (?)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my
un in a specific order). I've also used jam and
ant, but the past 3 or 4 years my make replacement of choice is... drum
roll please... make. It turns out despite its poor design decisions
(such as treating tab and space differently), at least I can always get
the job done with it.
--
knesses of seki, and
life/death situations where delicate play is only required by one player).
[2]: Where a program could give hotspots 10 times more playouts compared
to other moves, at root, with the 10:1 ratio deteriorating to 1:1 after
N moves. (E.g. N could be 10, or some function of
bit annoying in Ishi-go,
> and small letters are better to read than capital ones.)
I find the B/W very useful: when playing out a long list of moves it is
very easy to lose track where I am. Most moves are equally likely for
both sides.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
h
list goes back to at least 1990, and has full archives, as I
remember spending a good number of hours reading them all after I joined
the list in around 1995. I'm interested in tracking down some posts from
1998 to 2000.
Thanks,
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
and Peter. I managed to extract the emails I
was looking for :-).
Darren
> The archives for this list are here:
> http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/
>
> But they only go back to August 2003...
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (Englis
your opening library, and meaning it would not suddenly find
itself in a situation that it does not understand.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic networ
mistake 3 moves before. Once I chose a
better move there it went back to being good for white, so the estimate
at the start of the prime variation seemed valid.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
en you think a
computer program will beat the world champion. Have fun! :-)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my
e match was today, and I had to choose one or the other I would
personally go for John to win. A couple of early comments I received
also felt the same: "European shodan is strong" (and John is European 2
or 3-dan).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://
t of time experimenting on good
> exploitation/exploration parameters, I suspect that the last option
> (obey the time management, continue searching, reuse the tree) is the
> better?
>
> Christian
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (The Shodan Go B
eeded to get past this wall.
Darren
[1]:
http://answers.polldaddy.com/poll/1614035/?view=results
[2]:
http://dcook.org/compgo/article_the_problem_with_random_playouts.html
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/ml
(given the amount of computer power you could possibly manage to take to
an event site, even assuming Moore's Law holds for another 18 months)"
Thankfully he elided that, so as not to bore us :-).
Darren
>> [1]:
>> http://answers.polldaddy.com/poll/1614035/?view=results
--
D
ce patterns were also added, and different patterns sizes can
co-exist in the pattern database, so the tenuki moves also get
considered (but usually with a lower pattern score).
Darren
[1]: http://senseis.xmp.net/?HaneTsugi
[2]: http://senseis.xmp.net/?HaneTsugi%2FAdvanced
--
Darren Cook, Soft
o well on 9x9.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (Multilingual open source semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs and
t
seem to be working well?
Darren
[1]: e.g.
http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/2009-January/017512.html
[2]: To preempt the pedants: between very strong/perfect players.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://
> Chinese rules specify komi of 7.5. Japanese rules specify komi of 6.5.
> In the events I run, at least, I merely follow what the rules say,
> because I do not believe I have sufficient reason to override them.
Thanks Nick.
By the way, here is good explanation of why chinese rules don't use 6.5
mathematical endgames), let alone the middle game, and so this didn't
work well.
Why I think this pattern idea might have merit in MCTS is that all you
need is a reasonable ordering of pattern urgency. The move selection
then adds some noise to cover up the inaccuracies.
--
Darren Cook, So
#x27;m not competing any time soon, so this cannot really count as a
vote for longer time controls.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (Multilingual open source semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (
is to win. It is in fact a crude
estimator of the final score.
Going back to your original comment, when choosing between move A that
leads to a 0.5pt win, and move B that leads to a 100pt win, you should
be seeing move B has a higher winning percentage.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/D
heavy algorithm is better
might give other people ideas for lighter but still effective playouts.
Darren
*: As an example, monte carlo itself was ignored for the first 10 years
of its life because traditional programs were stronger on the same hardware.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Develop
more playouts?
I think showing it is similar or better with same number of playouts is
a good first step - the second experiment takes 10 times as long to run :-)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/
fly and it didn't
work well".
Darren
[1]: I think starting here, and then the dozen or so followup messages.
http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/2008-August/015859.html
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http
>> I would like to know what exact experiments with "virtual komi"
>> have been made and why thay failed. ...
I'm only aware of Don's experiment [1], which he admits he doesn't have
any details for and only remembers: "I did a bunch of experiments and
ALWAYS got a reduced wins when I faked the kom
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