Hi Jenda,
2011/4/26 Jenda Krynicky :
> From: Raymond Wan
>> Hm, sounds like you think that if the problem is ignored, it will go
>> away?
>
> Some problems are real, some imaginary. The later kind is better
> ignored.
Yes...well, I would think whether or not it is imaginary should not be
On 4/24/2011 12:38 PM, David Christensen wrote:
The way I see it, "Cyberbulling" is much more persistent than just
making one
comment on a post to a public mailing list.
Perhaps. Note that people on this list have already stated that certain
people have a history of questionable conduct on th
From: Raymond Wan
> 2011/4/25 Jenda Krynicky :
> > From: Raymond Wan
> >> After reading this, what came to mind is the problem of sexual and
> >> power harassment in the workplace, and maybe extending to other types
> >> of prejudices but maybe that is a stretch? Often, the person being
> >> acc
2011/4/25 Jenda Krynicky :
> From: Raymond Wan
>> After reading this, what came to mind is the problem of sexual and
>> power harassment in the workplace, and maybe extending to other types
>> of prejudices but maybe that is a stretch? Often, the person being
>> accused might start with, "I was j
From: Raymond Wan
> >> Well, online bullying is a problem, but I don't think that saying "Your
> >> Perl
> >> code sucks" or "Please don't post misleaing answers to people's Perl
> >> questions" would qualify as online bullying.
> ...
> > The point is this: some crimes hinge upon what's going on
On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 04:38, David Christensen
wrote:
> On 04/24/2011 02:36 AM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
>> I also think it is a better idea to put someone who is acting in an
>> abusive
>> manner on manual moderation before actually banning them.
> Good idea. Does the beginners@perl.org mailing list
On 04/24/2011 02:36 AM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
I also think it is a better idea to put someone who is acting in an abusive
manner on manual moderation before actually banning them.
Good idea. Does the beginners@perl.org mailing list software have this
feature?
Well, online bullying is a probl
Hi David,
see below for my response.
On Sunday 24 Apr 2011 03:30:17 David Christensen wrote:
> On 04/19/2011 06:26 PM, David Christensen wrote:
> > So, my next question is "has the complaint resolution process broken
> > down?".
>
> It's been 4 days, and I haven't seen a reply to the above quest
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 04:00, Brian Fraser wrote:
> Please people. I urge you all to kindly fuck off.
>
> This is getting ridiculous. You are arguing about *tone*. Who gives a flying
> fuck about tone if the post has substance? Are we fucking two? Are our egos
> so fragile that we can't take the
On 04/19/2011 06:26 PM, David Christensen wrote:
So, my next question is "has the complaint resolution process broken
down?".
It's been 4 days, and I haven't seen a reply to the above question.
Right now, per the "Beginning Perl mailing list FAQ" (FAQ) [1], this
list is controlled by "modera
Hi Shawn,
moving to advoc...@perl.org .
On Saturday 23 Apr 2011 20:24:36 Shawn H Corey wrote:
> On 11-04-23 12:53 PM, Casey West wrote:
> > 1. What did you do that doesn’t fit with our Lincoln School Rules? (Be
> > specific and start with “I”)
>
> Wow. The very first thing they have to think ab
On 11-04-23 06:37 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
Emotions are nature's guidelines, and should not be repressed, and one should
not feel guilty for feeling anything (Sermon on the Mount/etc. put aside),
including not a desire for murder and mayhem. But acting based on these
emotions by words or deed may n
Hi Brian, and all.
please read my entire response.
On Saturday 23 Apr 2011 22:22:13 Brian Fraser wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Marilyn Sander, Ken Armstrong <
>
> marilyn-san...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > The F-bomb is totally unnecessary. Such language is for teenagers who do
> > no
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Marilyn Sander, Ken Armstrong <
marilyn-san...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> The F-bomb is totally unnecessary. Such language is for teenagers who do
> not yet know how to communicate displeasure effectively. Please grow up.
> Personally, I am finding this discussion f
The F-bomb is totally unnecessary. Such language is for teenagers who do not
yet know how to communicate displeasure effectively. Please grow up.
Personally, I am finding this discussion fascinating. I have often wondered
why the "academics" at IBM would attack each other's presentations. It
Please people. I urge you all to kindly fuck off.
This is getting ridiculous. You are arguing about *tone*. Who gives a flying
fuck about tone if the post has substance? Are we fucking two? Are our egos
so fragile that we can't take the slightest of drubbings? So sensitive that
a word in caps can
On Apr 23, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> I just realized something this morning. If
> you go back through my "complaints" here and elsewhere over the years,
> they fall into two main camps:
>
> (1) people who answer someone else's question badly
[snip]
This raises for me the q
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Lali wrote:
> I agree with you Ray, a nasty reply in a professional setting is easy to
> fend with a well thought answer.
> Having a thick skin, what does that mean? I don't run and throw myself on
> my bed and cry my eyes out when I get a harsh critique, but I w
I agree with you Ray, a nasty reply in a professional setting is easy to
fend with a well thought answer.
Having a thick skin, what does that mean? I don't run and throw myself on
my bed and cry my eyes out when I get a harsh critique, but I won't lie and
say that it sits well on me right away, af
> I'm not so sure about this last point. Yes there are nasty scientific
> reviewers out there and the reason is that no one is taught to review
> nicely. They've learned to be nasty either from someone they worked
> with or, more than likely, from someone else who was nasty to them.
>
> Perhaps p
Hi Tiago,
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 01:33, Tiago Hori wrote:
> No, no one needs to be rude, but some people are. Some people are rude
> because they are just stupid, but I like to believe that the vast majority
> is rude because they don't know any better. I just think that getting a
> thick skin
On Apr 23, 2011, at 12:22 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> Just a note about etymology and semantics - it is a good idea to *never*
> accuse someone of "lying" in an online forum.
But Shlomi - don't you remember? He "#ifdef'd" it out! :-p
Hee hee.
Chap
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: beginners-unsu
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 23:53, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>> "Raymond" == Raymond Wan writes:
>
> Raymond> But, if both sides (both of you) and third-party-people like me still
> Raymond> remember exchanges on this list from almost 2 years ago,
>
> I didn't remember it at all. I had to google
On 11-04-23 12:53 PM, Casey West wrote:
1. What did you do that doesn’t fit with our Lincoln School Rules? (Be
specific and start with “I”)
Wow. The very first thing they have to think about is their contempt
for the school authorities and not their victims' feelings. No wonder
why they tou
On Saturday 23 Apr 2011 17:53:30 Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> > "Raymond" == Raymond Wan writes:
> Raymond> But, if both sides (both of you) and third-party-people like me
> still Raymond> remember exchanges on this list from almost 2 years ago,
>
> I didn't remember it at all. I had to googl
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 12:40 PM, Chap Harrison wrote:
> That's all just to say that, while the traditional sci/tech culture may
> still be rife with big shots and ass-hattery, it's worth summoning the guts
> to look straight into someone's eyes and quietly insist upon being treated
> with common
I met some stupid people and they're a not rude. In fact, they're often
nicer than most people with more brains.
>
> The problem is that some people see things that irritate them and decide to
> take out their angry and frustration on complete strangers. But there's no
> excuse for their beha
On 11-04-23 12:33 PM, Tiago Hori wrote:
Some people are rude
because they are just stupid, but I like to believe that the vast majority
is rude because they don't know any better.
I met some stupid people and they're a not rude. In fact, they're often
nicer than most people with more brains.
Tangential to the topic, but related to the "traditional" programming culture
some have described -- I've programmed professionally since 1978, although I
haven't come anywhere close to Randal's heights. In the early '90s I was a
developer at a DBMS vendor in Kendall Square, Cambridge, which wa
> People complain; it's the nature of the beast. But that doesn't mean they
> have to be rude about it. Calling someone stupid is rude. Calling their
> best efforts stupid is an indirect way of calling them stupid and if
> anything, even ruder. Generally, I just ignore the rudeness and if it
>
On 11-04-23 11:55 AM, Tiago Hori wrote:
And Lali, you better get a thick skin, because weather you like or not, in
science you going to get nastiness all of the time. I don think it is the
correct way to be, but it is the way it is. It will help you stay sane,
specially during your quals:)
One
Hi All,
Initially I didn't feel like getting into this discussion, because for
starters I am really new here, but I also I generally don't like to argue. I
spend most of days arguing about some or other scientific question, that
when I come home I just want to learn perl. I think one think that I
On 11-04-23 11:01 AM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
Therefore, you're safe from "my wrath" since you'd only be asking
questions and not trying to answer someone else.
Anyone can be safe from your wrath simply by setting up a message filter
that deletes your posts unread.
Or they can unsubsrcibe
> "Lali" == Lali writes:
Lali> So please, think about this before answering harshly and being
Lali> patronizing. Not all of us Perl Beginners have a programming
Lali> background, anyone who is a beginner to programming needs to learn
Lali> how to read the documentation/manuals first, someti
> "Raymond" == Raymond Wan writes:
Raymond> But, if both sides (both of you) and third-party-people like me still
Raymond> remember exchanges on this list from almost 2 years ago,
I didn't remember it at all. I had to google for my name and his. I
*moved on*. I had to re-read the entire t
On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 04:56, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>> "Ian" == Ian writes:
> Ian> Randal is arrogant and a bully and is the reason why I moved on from this
> Ian> list years ago.
>
> You misunderstood something I said, which when taken in context, was
> appropriate then and I would say
Hi everyone,
Sorry for intruding, I just recently joined this list, I have the list
messages usually skip my inbox, but somehow this one did not and as I read,
I thought I might contribute by letting you know that there are different
"types" of Perl beginners, particularly one type, which is not a
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Randal L. Schwartz
wrote:
> My biggest problem (I think) is that I'm clearly not my code. If
> someone complains about my code, no matter how harshly, *I* don't take
> it as an affront to *me*. I just learn from it, and get better.
>
> So, I project that same lev
> (And I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I'm guessing that it
> actually didn't work.)
> And since that's false, the rest DOESN'T APPLY. IT DOESN'T APPLY TO YOU.
> GET IT?
YOU don't get it. That is the problem. You think you can insult people on
the list and then just walk away.
If yo
> "Ian" == Ian writes:
Randal> If you imply that you have a proven solution, you are lying to
Ian> them. I ask
Randal> that you don't lie in that way.
Ian> http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.beginners/2009/08/msg108718.html
Ian> I did NOT lie, nor did I mislead the list in anyway by supply
Randal> If you imply that you have a proven solution, you are lying to
them. I ask
Randal> that you don't lie in that way.
http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.beginners/2009/08/msg108718.html
Ian> I did NOT lie, nor did I mislead the list in anyway by supplying code that
Ian> did not work.
Ian> Ea
> "Ian" == Ian writes:
Ian> Sadly the great work Casey West and Kevin Meltzer did by starting a perl
Ian> beginners list was tainted by individuals like Randal Schwartz. I was a
Ian> direct target of this bullying
Ian> Randal is arrogant and a bully and is the reason why I moved on from th
Sadly the great work Casey West and Kevin Meltzer did by starting a perl
beginners list was tainted by individuals like Randal Schwartz. I was a
direct target of this bullying
Randal is arrogant and a bully and is the reason why I moved on from this
list years ago.
Ian
Hi Randal (and everybody),
On Thursday 21 Apr 2011 19:25:40 Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> > "Rob" == Rob Dixon writes:
> Rob> As I mentioned in a previous post, you have softened recently. So
> Rob> it is likely that your life has improved and you are better
> Rob> provided for, and no longer h
On Thu, April 21, 2011 1:22 pm, Raymond Wan wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:25, Randal L. Schwartz
> wrote:
>>> "Rob" == Rob Dixon writes:
>> To discredit this post, as well as your other claims, I'm actually going
>> through the worst period in my life, exceeding my criminal arrest and
>
- Original Message -
From: "Rob Dixon"
To: "Randal L. Schwartz"
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: Nature of this list
On 21/04/2011 17:25, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
People come online to learn Perl.
Yes! But you have succumbed to G
On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 01:25, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>> "Rob" == Rob Dixon writes:
> To discredit this post, as well as your other claims, I'm actually going
> through the worst period in my life, exceeding my criminal arrest and
> conviction in 1995, which I had hoped would be the "forev
On 21/04/2011 17:25, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
"Rob" == Rob Dixon writes:
Rob> As I mentioned in a previous post, you have softened recently.
So Rob> it is likely that your life has improved and you are better
Rob> provided for, and no longer have the need to abuse. I am very
happy Rob> f
> "Rob" == Rob Dixon writes:
Rob> As I mentioned in a previous post, you have softened recently. So
Rob> it is likely that your life has improved and you are better
Rob> provided for, and no longer have the need to abuse. I am very happy
Rob> for you, and for the rest of the world who would r
On 19/04/2011 22:10, Shawn H Corey wrote:
Some people are intimidated by the smallest of criticism. It usually
can be traced back to a math or science teacher they hate. The way to
overcome this is to use gentle persuasion.
Erm, Shawn, please don't tell us about the science teacher that you
ha
On 19/04/2011 23:25, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>
> Here (and on monks and usenet and now StackOverflow), I'm (often)
> reacting to bad code. And I make no apologies for saying code is bad
> or wrong or illpurposed or a security threat, if that's indeed what
> it is, and I also believe that the p
On Tue, April 19, 2011 12:45 pm, Raymond Wan wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 01:17, Rob Dixon wrote:
>> On 19/04/2011 16:00, Peter Scott wrote:
>>> If anything is clear from that FAQ it is that the intention is to avoid
>>> flames on this list. Â Casey and Kevin appear to have stopped
>>> monitor
On Apr 19, 6:25 pm, mer...@stonehenge.com ((Randal L. Schwartz))
wrote:
> Here (and on monks and usenet and now StackOverflow), I'm (often)
> reacting to bad code. And I make no apologies for saying code is bad or
> wrong or illpurposed or a security threat, if that's indeed what it is,
> and I a
On 11-04-20 02:31 AM, shawn wilson wrote:
given the proper
precursory research
Part of the problem is that beginners may not know that perldoc even
exists, yet alone, know that "Quote and Quote-like Operators" is found
in perlop.
The search function for perldoc are very crude and
http://pe
On 19 April 2011 16:00, Peter Scott wrote:
...
> :[...]
> : * If you think what you are writing may be taken in a way you didn't
> : intend, please add a smiley :-) Many flame wars are stopped by a simple
> : smiley!
> : * No flames. If your fingers are burning as you are typing the email, it
> :
so, i haven't seen much 'perl' discussion on this list today. and i
was hoping that this thread has gone on long enough that it might make
some think twice before being rude, spiteful, whatever. i'm pretty
sure that we're all adults and that none of us will change. those that
want to post will do s
Speaking as someone who uses Perl for work, but is also an academic
specializing in Chaucerian studies, and who divorced a man for his
belief that his flaws were his flaws and that's just who he is and the
whole world should just get over themselves:
There is a lot to be said for delivery. You
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 01:17, Rob Dixon wrote:
> On 19/04/2011 16:00, Peter Scott wrote:
>> If anything is clear from that FAQ it is that the intention is to avoid
>> flames on this list. Casey and Kevin appear to have stopped monitoring
>> this group some time ago, though.
> I have raised the i
On Apr 19, 2011, at 10:54 PM, Brandon McCaig wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 11:38 PM, Chap Harrison
> wrote:
>> Then, add something to the effect that part of the purpose of
>> the list is to acquaint beginners with the culture of advanced,
>> professional programming;
>
> Is that the purpose
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 11:38 PM, Chap Harrison
wrote:
> Then, add something to the effect that part of the purpose of
> the list is to acquaint beginners with the culture of advanced,
> professional programming;
Is that the purpose of this list? It's a beginner's list. I would
expect the purpose
On Apr 19, 2011, at 11:17 AM, Rob Dixon wrote:
> On 19/04/2011 16:00, Peter Scott wrote:
>>
>> If anything is clear from that FAQ it is that the intention is to avoid
>> flames on this list. Casey and Kevin appear to have stopped monitoring
>> this group some time ago, though.
>
> I have raised
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:33 PM, Brian F. Yulga
wrote:
> The first time I ventured some guesses in unknown territory, I
> got struck down pretty fast. It does kind of suck to spend
> some time thinking about how things work, post an idea, and
> then read a "you're completely wrong"-style, blunt
Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
If they don't have a thick skin already, they'd better get one soon, or
they'll be useless as an advanced programmer. Without thick skin, they
won't be able to submit their code for review regardless of how much
their ego is invested in it.
I've been following th
On 04/19/2011 08:00 AM, Peter Scott wrote:
I remember when Casey West and Kevin Meltzer started this list. Casey
was very specific on-line and in person about it being a place where
newcomers could ask questions without being flamed. The FAQ bears this
out:
...
this one at least had a good ru
> "Robert" == Robert writes:
Robert> Criticizing a man's omelettes is going too far!!! Dem's fighting
Robert> words! :)
Egg-cellent point!
:-)
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consultin
On 2011-04-19 18:01:38 -0400, Rob Dixon said:
Really? So I could ridicule your code, your religion, your children,
your omelettes, your business, or your fitness regime, and you wouldn't
feel a twinge unless I attacked the essential essence that is Randal?
Criticizing a man's omelettes is goin
> "Shawn" == Shawn H Corey writes:
Shawn> PS: If you don't like my comment, grow a thick skin!
No offense taken. It says a lot more about you than it does about me.
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltal
On 11-04-19 06:25 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
If they don't have a thick skin already, they'd better get one soon, or
they'll be useless as an advanced programmer.
That's the stupidest thing I ever heard.
PS: If you don't like my comment, grow a thick skin!
--
Just my 0.0002 million d
> "Rob" == Rob Dixon writes:
Rob> Really? So I could ridicule your code, your religion, your children,
Rob> your omelettes, your business, or your fitness regime, and you wouldn't
Rob> feel a twinge unless I attacked the essential essence that is
Rob> Randal?
Ideally, no. Now, do I have som
On 19/04/2011 21:31, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> "Rob" == Rob Dixon writes:
>
> Rob> I have raised the issue of bullying with the moderators in past years.
> Rob> The reaction was that, since Randal had such valuable input, it was
> Rob> appropriate to let it drop. I find Randal's ideas intere
On 11-04-19 04:31 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
So, I project that same level of independence on others, and have a
really hard time relating that someone would take a criticism of code as
a personal attack.
Some people are intimidated by the smallest of criticism. It usually
can be traced ba
> "Rob" == Rob Dixon writes:
Rob> I have raised the issue of bullying with the moderators in past years.
Rob> The reaction was that, since Randal had such valuable input, it was
Rob> appropriate to let it drop. I find Randal's ideas interesting, although
Rob> hardly germane or unmissable, but
On 19/04/2011 16:00, Peter Scott wrote:
I remember when Casey West and Kevin Meltzer started this list. Casey
was very specific on-line and in person about it being a place where
newcomers could ask questions without being flamed. The FAQ bears this
out:
: 2.1 - What is the list for?
:
: A l
On Tuesday 19 Apr 2011 18:00:05 Peter Scott wrote:
> I remember when Casey West and Kevin Meltzer started this list. Casey
> was very specific on-line and in person about it being a place where
> newcomers could ask questions without being flamed. The FAQ bears this
>
> out:
> : 2.1 - What is th
I remember when Casey West and Kevin Meltzer started this list. Casey
was very specific on-line and in person about it being a place where
newcomers could ask questions without being flamed. The FAQ bears this
out:
: 2.1 - What is the list for?
:
: A list for beginning Perl programmers to as
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