Re: adding segWays and storyboard entry points using VoiceOver

[venky . 92]

Hi,
I am trying to create an app with multiple views. For this, I used the tabbed 
application template. My intention is to use a navigation bar to display the 
title in the first viewController. To do this, I embedded the first 
ViewController in a navigation control and set the title of the navigation 
item. When I run the app, VoiceOver does not speak anything on the screen. This 
includes the title, the buttons on the tab bar, etc. What am I doing wrong here?
Thank you.
Regards,
Venkatesh

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 12, 2015, at 4:06 PM, Yuma Decaux  wrote:
> 
> Hi Alex,
> 
> There’s a particular process to adding tabs to tabbars. heres the process:
> 1-first create all your view controllers with the names of the tabs you want, 
> as sub classes of UIViewController
> 2-open the default view controller.swift and make the view controller an 
> instance of UITabBarController like follows
> class viewController: UITabBarController {}
>> 3-In mainstoryboard’s document outline, select the default view controller, 
>> and delete it
> 4-drag the UITabBarController from the library to the document outline. On 
> this one, don’t drag and drop in the document outline but on the scroll area 
> of mainstorybard. Doing it this way will work everytime while trying to put 
> it in the outline will give you no result
> 5-The UITabBarController contains 2 view controllers by default. Change the 
> UITabBarController as root view controller in the attributes inspector by 
> checking root view
> 6-back in the document outline, expand the views called (item 1 and item2), 
> select the tab, go to atrributes inspector and change its name to whatever 
> your view controller is for reading purposes.
> 7-still in the document outline, find either view controller whose names you 
> changed and go to identity inspector, and change the base class to your 
> custom viewcontroller class
> 8-If you want to add more tabs, drag a new view controller into the outline 
> and make sure that you are placing it on the root view controller to create 
> the relationship between root and sub view controller or tab.
> 9-You can alternatively look for connections in the connections inspector of 
> the main controller and look for something like cconnect subview or something 
> like that. the process is the same, shift vo command space, go to outline, 
> find the sub view controller, and release.
> 
> Hope this helps 
> 
>>  12/08/2015, at 6:09 AM, Alex Hall  wrote:
>> 
>> I'm watching this thread, as segues are one thing I've never managed to get 
>> working. Is this Xcode 6.x or 7?
>> 
>> On a related note, has anyone worked out how to add tabs to tab bars, or 
>> views to grids, and so on? No matter what I try, I can't get new tabs onto a 
>> tab bar in N iOS app.
>>> On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:59 AM, Barry Hadder  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Venkatesh,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> First select the view controller to segue to.
>>> 
>>> Then from the inspector, drag from the presenting segue that you want, I.e. 
>>> show segue to the button in the outline.  
>>> 
>>> When you unlock the mouse button on the button in the outline, wait until 
>>> you hear vo say Xcode has new window.
>>> 
>>> Vo-f2 twice to bring up the windows list and choose the one that says 
>>> action or something like that.
>>> 
>>> Next, rout the mouse to vo and click.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So, instead of dragging from the source to the destination, you want to 
>>> drag from the dest to the source.  By doing that you are giving Xcode more 
>>> information about what you are trying to do and usually you won’t have to 
>>> respond to one of those boxes that pop up except in this case.
>>> 
>>> I don’t know why you have to respond to that box at the end, but I’ve never 
>>> had any problems.  Just clicking the mouse in it always works.  I suspect 
>>> it is an Xcode bug.  It messed me up for a little while when I was first 
>>> learning how to do this.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To set the storyboard entry point:
>>> 
>>> select the view controller and in the view controller section of the 
>>> attributes inspector, check the box for is designated entry point.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Monday, August 10, 2015 at 11:55:06 PM UTC-5, Venkatesh Potluri wrote:
 Hi,
 How do we add segWays in xCode?
 I have a demo app with 2 viewControllers (2 viewController scenes in 
 effect). My aim is to add a button to 1 ViewController that would take me 
 to the other. I could partially do this.
 From the library, I dragged a button on to the view inside the first 
 viewController in the main storyboard. From the connections inspector of 
 the button, I dragged the button next to action to the second 
 viewController. Here, I would want to select the show option. However, 
 VoiceOver does not speak any options in the small pop over that is 
 displayed. I was told about a popover being present with cited assistance. 
 How do I accomplish this with VoiceOver? I thought dragging a 

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Pamela Francis]

Hello,
I have a list question.
First, as helpful as this list has been through the years, there are times it 
does disintegrate into childish arguments. How is creating another list going 
to alleviate that issue?Second, does this list have a digest mowed therefore 
cutting down on the traffic? I belong to a testing group. I have to be able to 
keep up with those emails as well as whatever comes from any other list I 
follow. Not really sure that I want to leave it, given the fact there are so 
very many helpful people here. However I have to be able to minimize the 
traffic in order to keep up with the testing emails I need get.
Thanks in advance.

Pam Francis

On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello all:
I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two
people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished
without saying anything.

I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die off
or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this
includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another.

To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new
list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts
here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set
of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be
edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have questions,
please get in touch with me.

I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted
out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be
putting that call out shortly.

My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions.
Also, the list information is as follows:
Subscribers can join the list by sending email to
macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org
with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
visiting the list page at
http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries

I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me.
- -- 
Take care,
Ty
twitter: @sorressean
web:http://tysdomain.com
pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
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Re: My I O S 1 Day Challenge, Part 1

['Kevin Cussick' via MacVisionaries]

same here,   but we need to try and be nice to each other but thanks for 
the laugh.


On 25/08/2015 22:27, Daniel Miller wrote:

I agree, this type of stuff would be more suited to a website or blog.
I’ve never laughed so hard in my life lololololol at the response to this :)

On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:56 PM, Yuma Decaux mailto:jamy...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Man, there’s something called a blog for this type of stuff. My next
challenge when I get so bored I got nothing else to do, I’ll try to
make siri on my watch talk to siri on my ipad, and record the
conversation with the dictation feature on my mac. I’ll write an
applescript specifically for this challenge, and try to stream through
http live streaming on youtube, vimeo, merecat, periscope and
soundcloud. Oh boy, how much fun this is going to be. Watch out for my
own siri challenge folks, I promise you a spectacular time and lots of
laughs. And if you want a transcript of the conversation between my
watch and my ipad, you will have to register through a challenging web
page I will script. The person who can access the transcript receives
a free copy of my next blog, the cooking pancakes with IOS challenge.
Stay tuned, folks!




On 26/08/2015, at 6:39 AM, george b mailto:gbma...@gmail.com>> wrote:

And why would we care about this and why is it posted here
*From:*macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com]*On
Behalf Of*Christopher-Mark Gilland
*Sent:*Monday, August 24, 2015 19:16
*To:*macvisionaries@googlegroups.com

*Subject:*My I O S 1 Day Challenge, Part 1
So guys, maybe I am a bit of an extremest, however I have decided to
take a major challenge upon  myself.  So many people have said that I
O S is at a point where it could almost serve as a production based
computer setup for some people.  I decided, techy as I am, to take
this challenge and see if that is really the case for my daily
lifestyle.  Does it mean that I am going to use I O S exclusively
from this point forward, and never use a computer again?  Hell! no!
All I'm saying is, I wanted to really truely give the mobile world a
fair chance, and really take it to the extreme.
Therefore, for the next 24 hours, I am trying to stay off my pc as
much as humanly possible.  Obviously, if a customer of mine needs
something done that I find isn't working with I O S, then I'll hop on
my mac or my PC, and get it done, but even then, I won't do so unless
it winds up being a very very last resort.  I really am open-minded
about wanting to try this and really see if I truely can manage with
only a mobile device, be it my IPhone, or my IPad to do this.
This said, here is the first challenge I've hit.  I know that being
you all won't be able to see what I'm seeing first hand, it's going
to make things a bit difficult, but trust me when I say, this was a
nightmare!
I am running a droplet on Digital Ocean of UBuntu 14.04 64 bit,
Server.  On here, I have followed the instructions posted by Nerd
Vittles and have installed Asterisk's Incredible PBX.  Tonight, I
wanted to add an entry to my main company IVR.  So, I grabbed my
IPad, and went to the FreePBX admin web interface.  I have IPTables
installed locking it down to my IP address, so even if I was to give
you all the URL to go to, it wouldn't work for you guys.  Just take
my word for this.  The page loaded just fine, but first off, I saw
the link on this page to log into the ISynthany server, if I had one
configured, which I don't.  I also saw the button to load the user
panel login screen.  When I double tapped on this button however, I
was presented with a page telling me that Safari was unable to
connect.  I know this is baloni, as both my windows PC, as well as
all 3 of my macs can connect with absolutely no problem to that page.
So, I backed myself out, back to the main FreePBX page, and proceeded
to look for the link/button to log into the admin panel.  Try as I
may however, the link was nowhere to be found.  I know where the link
should be on the page, but neither touch exploration nor flicking
would focus it.  Now, to be fair, let me say this.  I do not know if
the link was visibly there on the screen.  If I had to guess based on
my touch exploration, I'd say it probably most likely wasn't, but
again, let's be totally fair.  I cannot prove this one way or
another.  I turned off, and back on Voiceover, which did entirely no
good.  I also tried using my item chooser list, which yielded
nothing.  Finally, at my whit's end, I turned my rotor to links, and
found nothing, buttons, and found nothing, and even form controls,
and found nothing.
I tried this both with, and without a bluetooth keyboard.  So
needless to say, either the way that site is scripted/coded is just
very very! nonstandard, or Safari is just having a major fit with
this web admin interface.
Is this real common that you'll see web pages on the mobile side of
things not render well?  I e

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Littlefield, Tyler]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello:
A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.

My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done
to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits,
I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a
good community.
On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
> 
> 
> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at
> 05:29:
> 
> Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is
> going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel.
> 


- -- 
Take care,
Ty
twitter: @sorressean
web:http://tysdomain.com
pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Littlefield, Tyler]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Pam,
I'll try to answer your questions. the new list does have a digest
mode, which you can set if you sign up through the website.

The second part of your email (or first, really) is more the reason
why I created the list. Right now, anyone can do pretty much anything
with no backlash from administration. This solves this problem. We can
rework the rules as necessary (what's there is a pretty good start)
and those can be enforced. I don't plan on just vanishing on you fine
folks to leave you to deal with the problems by yourself. I will also
be appointing a moderator at some point soon to help deal with it,
should I happen to get hit by a bus or get sick.

Thanks,
On 8/26/2015 5:53 AM, Pamela Francis wrote:
> Hello, I have a list question. First, as helpful as this list has
> been through the years, there are times it does disintegrate into
> childish arguments. How is creating another list going to alleviate
> that issue?Second, does this list have a digest mowed therefore
> cutting down on the traffic? I belong to a testing group. I have to
> be able to keep up with those emails as well as whatever comes from
> any other list I follow. Not really sure that I want to leave it,
> given the fact there are so very many helpful people here. However
> I have to be able to minimize the traffic in order to keep up with
> the testing emails I need get. Thanks in advance.
> 
> Pam Francis
> 
> On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello all: I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and
> at least two people I know of have left--that's not counting
> however many vanished without saying anything.
> 
> I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die
> off or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us
> (this includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another.
> 
> To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a
> new list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past
> posts here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There
> are a set of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that
> needs to be edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you
> have questions, please get in touch with me.
> 
> I will be the only moderator at present until everything is
> soarted out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll
> probably be putting that call out shortly.
> 
> My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions. Also,
> the list information is as follows: Subscribers can join the list
> by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org with
> 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at 
> http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries
> 
> I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with
> me.
> 

- -- 
Take care,
Ty
twitter: @sorressean
web:http://tysdomain.com
pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Scott Granados]

I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying policing = a good 
community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would 
disagree with that assertion.;)

You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of the rules 
going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It might but it’s hard to 
get enough people to switch and keep the same value when there’s already a 
critical mass of people here.

Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to say before he 
passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla”  something for the 
different viewpoints.

 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hello:
> A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
> 
> My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being done
> to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing of fits,
> I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we can have a
> good community.
> On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at
>> 05:29:
>> 
>> Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What is
>> going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel.
>> 
> 
> 
> - -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> twitter: @sorressean
> web:http://tysdomain.com
> pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Littlefield, Tyler]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello,
I just wanted to reply to this with my thinking.
I think each list is somewhat a community in that people read the
messages every morning or whenever they can, reply and get something
out of it. You give and take when you have questions is the way I see
this working out. Much like a community, sometimes there are certain
people who just want to make the experience bad for everyone involved.
Right now this occurs pretty much unchecked. There is a good balance
here: not overly moderating verses stepping in when things get messy.
I think that it's pretty easy to forget there's someone on the other
side of your message when we write. I don't plan on dropping the
banhammer on the first person to ever step over the line, I just want
to try to help control and regulate so that the people that are
currently getting responded to with curses and fowel language don't
have to be, because that does not really foster a good community.

the only reason currently this list is like this is because there is
not anyone willing to step in and moderate. We usually go from one
extreme to the other: someone is usually overly tyrannical in
moderation, or they just don't moderate altogether, thus leaving us to
decay until the return.

I hope this explains my purpose better. Please feel free to let me
know if you have questions.

Thanks,
On 8/26/2015 7:45 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:
> Hello Pam, I'll try to answer your questions. the new list does
> have a digest mode, which you can set if you sign up through the
> website.
> 
> The second part of your email (or first, really) is more the
> reason why I created the list. Right now, anyone can do pretty much
> anything with no backlash from administration. This solves this
> problem. We can rework the rules as necessary (what's there is a
> pretty good start) and those can be enforced. I don't plan on just
> vanishing on you fine folks to leave you to deal with the problems
> by yourself. I will also be appointing a moderator at some point
> soon to help deal with it, should I happen to get hit by a bus or
> get sick.
> 
> Thanks, On 8/26/2015 5:53 AM, Pamela Francis wrote:
>> Hello, I have a list question. First, as helpful as this list
>> has been through the years, there are times it does disintegrate
>> into childish arguments. How is creating another list going to
>> alleviate that issue?Second, does this list have a digest mowed
>> therefore cutting down on the traffic? I belong to a testing
>> group. I have to be able to keep up with those emails as well as
>> whatever comes from any other list I follow. Not really sure that
>> I want to leave it, given the fact there are so very many helpful
>> people here. However I have to be able to minimize the traffic in
>> order to keep up with the testing emails I need get. Thanks in
>> advance.
> 
>> Pam Francis
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler 
>>  wrote:
> 
>> Hello all: I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list
>> and at least two people I know of have left--that's not counting 
>> however many vanished without saying anything.
> 
>> I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it
>> die off or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot
>> of us (this includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another.
> 
>> To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started
>> a new list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of
>> past posts here and anything else, we start with a clean slate.
>> There are a set of well-defined rules; if you join and see
>> something that needs to be edited/added, please do let me know.
>> Similarly, if you have questions, please get in touch with me.
> 
>> I will be the only moderator at present until everything is 
>> soarted out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll 
>> probably be putting that call out shortly.
> 
>> My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions.
>> Also, the list information is as follows: Subscribers can join
>> the list by sending email to macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org
>> with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list
>> page at http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries
> 
>> I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with 
>> me.
> 
> 
> 

- -- 
Take care,
Ty
twitter: @sorressean
web:http://tysdomain.com
pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Littlefield, Tyler]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Scott,
There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
continue, said individual is removed from the community.

I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
elimenate all the side bickering?
On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
> policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
> or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
> 
> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
> the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
> might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
> same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
> 
> Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
> say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
> vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.
> 
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
>>  wrote:
>> 
> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
> 
> My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
> done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
> of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
> can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele
> Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
 
 
 Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on
 26/08/2015 at 05:29:
 
 Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What
 is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel.
 
> 
> 
>> 
>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this
>> group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this
>> group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this
>> group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more
>> options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 

- -- 
Take care,
Ty
twitter: @sorressean
web:http://tysdomain.com
pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Scott Granados]

See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as a 
side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I saw 
you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:)

I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think people are 
way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.  My thinking is that 
there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort do 
to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom ever 
you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them where 
as others may wish to filter differently.  For some reason though some people 
need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come down on 
the side of lack of moderation.  As I said, that’s why they make chocolate and 
vanilla, different choices for different folks.

Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve 
the same problem.

Thanks for the response.

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hello Scott,
> There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
> who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
> someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
> frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
> continue, said individual is removed from the community.
> 
> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
> it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
> etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
> am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
> elimenate all the side bickering?
> On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
>> policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
>> or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
>> 
>> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
>> the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
>> might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
>> same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
>> 
>> Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
>> say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
>> vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
>> 
>> My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
>> done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
>> of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
>> can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele
>> Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
> 
> 
> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on
> 26/08/2015 at 05:29:
> 
> Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What
> is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel.
> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this
>>> group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this
>>> group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this
>>> group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more
>>> options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
> 
> - -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> twitter: @sorressean
> web:http://tysdomain.com
> pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Donna Goodin]

Hi all,

As some of you will no doubt recall, I brought this very possibility up some 
months back, when we were getting some rather unpleasant emails from someone's 
hacked account.  It does seem to me that this list has had more problems of 
late, and that having someone setting some guidelines and enforcing them would 
benefit this list.  that said, at its best, this has been one of the best lists 
I've ever been on and I would hate to see it disintegrate.  Since tyler is 
willing to take on some of these moderation duties, I wonder if a better option 
would be for tyler and Chris to work together to moderate this list, rather 
than having tyler branch off and start a new one.  Just a thought.
Best,
Donna
> On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hello all:
> I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two
> people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished
> without saying anything.
> 
> I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die off
> or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this
> includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another.
> 
> To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new
> list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts
> here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set
> of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be
> edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have questions,
> please get in touch with me.
> 
> I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted
> out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be
> putting that call out shortly.
> 
> My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions.
> Also, the list information is as follows:
> Subscribers can join the list by sending email to
> macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org
> with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
> visiting the list page at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries
> 
> I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me.
> - -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> twitter: @sorressean
> web:http://tysdomain.com
> pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Donna Goodin]

Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you.  When I modded the 
AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax.  and i completely 
agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :)  However, unless you 
decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through 
a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do.  So, we all know 
who the problematic posters are.  If someone were to say to them, either shape 
up or ship out, it would make the list much more efficient, which I think would 
be a good thing.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and as 
> a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when I 
> saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:)
> 
> I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think people are 
> way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.  My thinking is that 
> there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort 
> do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom 
> ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them 
> where as others may wish to filter differently.  For some reason though some 
> people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come 
> down on the side of lack of moderation.  As I said, that’s why they make 
> chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks.
> 
> Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve 
> the same problem.
> 
> Thanks for the response.
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
>> 
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> Hello Scott,
>> There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
>> who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
>> someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
>> frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
>> continue, said individual is removed from the community.
>> 
>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
>> it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
>> etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
>> am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
>> elimenate all the side bickering?
>> On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
>>> policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
>>> or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
>>> 
>>> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
>>> the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
>>> might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
>>> same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
>>> 
>>> Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
>>> say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
>>> vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
  wrote:
 
>>> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
>>> 
>>> My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
>>> done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
>>> of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
>>> can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele
>>> Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on
>> 26/08/2015 at 05:29:
>> 
>> Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What
>> is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 
 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
 Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this
 group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
 macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this
 group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this
 group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more
 options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>> 
>> 
>> - -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> twitter: @sorressean
>> web:http://tysdomain.com
>> pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>> Version: GnuPG v2
>> 
>> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3alUAAoJEAdP60+BYxejxMwIAImQRu113TefMhLFWF3sojAa
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>> 59YRfQag7uc4n5tKRqX1OGdKREF9vzgWdBANrnNsqBLimq

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Jamie Pauls]

The only input I have hear is that I think the name of the new list should be 
changed to something other than Mac Visionaries. This is going to potentially 
cause a lot of confusion. If a new list is to be created, then why not start 
with a clean slate and give the new list a new name?



Take care and have a great day.
Jamie Pauls
jamiepa...@gmail.com

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:10 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you.  When I modded the 
> AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax.  and i 
> completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :)  However, 
> unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up 
> slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do.  
> So, we all know who the problematic posters are.  If someone were to say to 
> them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more 
> efficient, which I think would be a good thing.
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and 
>> as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when 
>> I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:)
>> 
>> I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think people are 
>> way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.  My thinking is that 
>> there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort 
>> do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom 
>> ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them 
>> where as others may wish to filter differently.  For some reason though some 
>> people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come 
>> down on the side of lack of moderation.  As I said, that’s why they make 
>> chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks.
>> 
>> Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve 
>> the same problem.
>> 
>> Thanks for the response.
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
>>> 
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>> 
>>> Hello Scott,
>>> There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
>>> who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
>>> someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
>>> frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
>>> continue, said individual is removed from the community.
>>> 
>>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
>>> it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
>>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
>>> etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
>>> am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
>>> elimenate all the side bickering?
>>> On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
 I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
 policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
 or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
 
 You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
 the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
 might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
 same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
 
 Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
 say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
 vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.
 
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
>  wrote:
> 
 Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
 
 My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
 done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
 of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
 can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele
 Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on
>>> 26/08/2015 at 05:29:
>>> 
>>> Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What
>>> is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel.
>>> 
 
 
> 
> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this
> group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this
> group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this
> group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more
> options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Scott Granados]

Or here’s a counter idea, just create a rule that sends the offender to the bit 
bucket automatically.  Removes the slog and the offender at the same time.:)

I use rules all the time not just for filtering out the undesirables but also 
to filter things like monitoring tool output in to a folder for each customer 
or RFQs in a folder etc.  As I said though I know there are a lot of ways to 
get from here to there.  I’m only qualified and barely at that to speak for 
myself so this is how I’d address the problem but moderation is another very 
valid way to go.  I was just pointing out the alternative but I definitely 
support and wish the original poster success and will probably join although I 
don’t want to stir up his list so I may not only because I have a brain to 
mouth filter problem.:)
  


> On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you.  When I modded the 
> AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax.  and i 
> completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :)  However, 
> unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do end up 
> slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do.  
> So, we all know who the problematic posters are.  If someone were to say to 
> them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more 
> efficient, which I think would be a good thing.
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and 
>> as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight when 
>> I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:)
>> 
>> I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think people are 
>> way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.  My thinking is that 
>> there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much effort 
>> do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically send whom 
>> ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need to see them 
>> where as others may wish to filter differently.  For some reason though some 
>> people need this filtering to be done for them but in the end I always come 
>> down on the side of lack of moderation.  As I said, that’s why they make 
>> chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different folks.
>> 
>> Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to solve 
>> the same problem.
>> 
>> Thanks for the response.
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
>>> 
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>> 
>>> Hello Scott,
>>> There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
>>> who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
>>> someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
>>> frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
>>> continue, said individual is removed from the community.
>>> 
>>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
>>> it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
>>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
>>> etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
>>> am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
>>> elimenate all the side bickering?
>>> On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
 I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
 policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
 or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
 
 You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
 the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
 might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
 same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
 
 Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
 say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
 vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.
 
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
>  wrote:
> 
 Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
 
 My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
 done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
 of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
 can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele
 Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on
>>> 26/08/2015 at 05:29:
>>> 
>>> Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What
>>> is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel.
>>> 
 
 
> 
> -- You recei

Re: a new macvisionaries list

['Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries]

Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at 13:43:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello:
A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.

Ok. Are we migrated automatically or do we have to take some action?

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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Alex Hall]

Indeed, having an active moderator on this list would be the ideal solution. As 
others have said, this list already has a critical mass, and is one of the 
standard places many people are pointed to when seeking help with VoiceOver on 
the Mac. Cara popped up recently, so she's around. If Tyler could contact her 
and get himself appointed as a moderator, that would be perfect.
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:03 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> As some of you will no doubt recall, I brought this very possibility up some 
> months back, when we were getting some rather unpleasant emails from 
> someone's hacked account.  It does seem to me that this list has had more 
> problems of late, and that having someone setting some guidelines and 
> enforcing them would benefit this list.  that said, at its best, this has 
> been one of the best lists I've ever been on and I would hate to see it 
> disintegrate.  Since tyler is willing to take on some of these moderation 
> duties, I wonder if a better option would be for tyler and Chris to work 
> together to moderate this list, rather than having tyler branch off and start 
> a new one.  Just a thought.
> Best,
> Donna
>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
>> 
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> Hello all:
>> I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two
>> people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished
>> without saying anything.
>> 
>> I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die off
>> or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this
>> includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another.
>> 
>> To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new
>> list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts
>> here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set
>> of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be
>> edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have questions,
>> please get in touch with me.
>> 
>> I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted
>> out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be
>> putting that call out shortly.
>> 
>> My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions.
>> Also, the list information is as follows:
>> Subscribers can join the list by sending email to
>> macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org
>> with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
>> visiting the list page at
>> http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries
>> 
>> I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me.
>> - -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> twitter: @sorressean
>> web:http://tysdomain.com
>> pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>> Version: GnuPG v2
>> 
>> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3TKrAAoJEAdP60+BYxejsDUH/Rma52ZSw0mvOk/rMdqG4uvZ
>> xt+2FiNg0FnfdBhvfRXnbrABxF+A6F+y1rUjU04osO3zS/CTZvAeSQjKQfHBd2Zq
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>> =W2wW
>> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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Have a great day,
Alex Hall
mehg...@icloud.com

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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Littlefield, Tyler]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hey Donna,
I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription
requests which I think says a lot to what people want.

I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully
moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I
think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she
decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron
fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to
people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate
so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information.
The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this.
On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote:
> Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you.  When I
> modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too
> lax.  and i completely agree about the delete key and it's
> incredible value. :)  However, unless you decide just not to read
> certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of
> unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do.  So, we all know
> who the problematic posters are.  If someone were to say to them,
> either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more
> efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid
>> points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically
>> gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages
>> and using strong cryptography.:)
>> 
>> I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think
>> people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.
>> My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further
>> more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in
>> rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with
>> to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as
>> others may wish to filter differently.  For some reason though
>> some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the
>> end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation.  As I
>> said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different
>> choices for different folks.
>> 
>> Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple
>> ways to solve the same problem.
>> 
>> Thanks for the response.
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
> Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and
> moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others.
> For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which
> happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a
> moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the
> community.
> 
> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just
> that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community 
> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide
> help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I
> myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to
> mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM,
> Scott Granados wrote:
> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like
> saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the
> folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with
> that assertion.;)
> 
> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the
> tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in
> to better content.  It might but it’s hard to get enough
> people to switch and keep the same value when there’s
> already a critical mass of people here.
> 
> Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts
> used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make
> chocolate and vanilla”  something for the different
> viewpoints.
> 
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler 
>>  wrote:
>> 
> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this
> list.
> 
> My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is
> being done to stop it. As a result of the
> spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list
> where rules can be enforced and we can have a good
> community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via
> MacVisionaries wrote:
 
 
 Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 
 26/08/2015 at 05:29:
 
 Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new
 list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks.
 Gabriel.
 
> 
> 
>> 
>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed
>> to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To
>> uns

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Donna Goodin]

I'm good with that, lol.  You? A Brain-to-mouth filter problem?  I can't 
imagine! :)
Take care,
Donna
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:20 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Or here’s a counter idea, just create a rule that sends the offender to the 
> bit bucket automatically.  Removes the slog and the offender at the same 
> time.:)
> 
> I use rules all the time not just for filtering out the undesirables but also 
> to filter things like monitoring tool output in to a folder for each customer 
> or RFQs in a folder etc.  As I said though I know there are a lot of ways to 
> get from here to there.  I’m only qualified and barely at that to speak for 
> myself so this is how I’d address the problem but moderation is another very 
> valid way to go.  I was just pointing out the alternative but I definitely 
> support and wish the original poster success and will probably join although 
> I don’t want to stir up his list so I may not only because I have a brain to 
> mouth filter problem.:)
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
>> 
>> Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you.  When I modded the 
>> AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax.  and i 
>> completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :)  
>> However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do 
>> end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time 
>> to do.  So, we all know who the problematic posters are.  If someone were to 
>> say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more 
>> efficient, which I think would be a good thing.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and 
>>> as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight 
>>> when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:)
>>> 
>>> I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think people 
>>> are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.  My thinking is 
>>> that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much 
>>> effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically 
>>> send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need 
>>> to see them where as others may wish to filter differently.  For some 
>>> reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in 
>>> the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation.  As I said, 
>>> that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different 
>>> folks.
>>> 
>>> Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to 
>>> solve the same problem.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the response.
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  
 wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 Hello Scott,
 There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
 who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
 someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
 frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
 continue, said individual is removed from the community.
 
 I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
 it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
 conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
 etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
 am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
 elimenate all the side bickering?
 On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
> policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
> or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
> 
> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
> the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
> might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
> same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
> 
> Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
> say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
> vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.
> 
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
>>  wrote:
>> 
> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
> 
> My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
> done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
> of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
> can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele
> Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Littlefield, Tyler]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

this is me baiscally branching off, so you have to take action:
subscribing to the list.
Here's the info from my first message if it helps. It's worth saying
here that neither of the moderators know about this--I can't even get
a response from Cara, so this in no way reflects the current list. I'm
just trying to do something nice and help a good community. You all do
the rest by building the community, providing questions and answers
and making the list a general good place to be.

Here's the subscription info:
Subscribers can join the list by sending email to
macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org
 with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at
http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries

On 8/26/2015 8:20 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
> 
> 
> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at
> 13:43:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
> Ok. Are we migrated automatically or do we have to take some
> action?
> 


- -- 
Take care,
Ty
twitter: @sorressean
web:http://tysdomain.com
pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2

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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Donna Goodin]

OK, so I'm going to address the elephant in the room to which you eluded.  
Cara, if you're out there, you either need to mod the list yourself, or let it 
go!  Cara is like a ghost on this list.  Nobody wants to "step on her toes."  
She is part of our problem.  From what i can tell, she seems to want to retain 
some sort of ownership of the list, but then not do anything with it.  that's 
sort of like buying a house and then just letting it fall into ruin.  If we're 
all willing to let this list dissolve because of Cara's bad judgment, then 
maybe a new list is a better plan, as that seems to be the one way we can all 
get out from under her.  Please understand I barely know Cara, and have no 
personal grudge against her.  But her handling of this situation has been very 
bad.
Best,
Donna
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:27 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hey Donna,
> I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription
> requests which I think says a lot to what people want.
> 
> I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully
> moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I
> think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she
> decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron
> fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to
> people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate
> so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information.
> The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this.
> On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote:
>> Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you.  When I
>> modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too
>> lax.  and i completely agree about the delete key and it's
>> incredible value. :)  However, unless you decide just not to read
>> certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of
>> unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do.  So, we all know
>> who the problematic posters are.  If someone were to say to them,
>> either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more
>> efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid
>>> points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically
>>> gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages
>>> and using strong cryptography.:)
>>> 
>>> I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think
>>> people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.
>>> My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further
>>> more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in
>>> rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with
>>> to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as
>>> others may wish to filter differently.  For some reason though
>>> some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the
>>> end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation.  As I
>>> said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different
>>> choices for different folks.
>>> 
>>> Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple
>>> ways to solve the same problem.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the response.
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
  wrote:
 
>> Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and
>> moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others.
>> For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which
>> happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a
>> moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the
>> community.
>> 
>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just
>> that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community 
>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide
>> help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I
>> myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to
>> mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM,
>> Scott Granados wrote:
>> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like
>> saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the
>> folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with
>> that assertion.;)
>> 
>> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the
>> tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in
>> to better content.  It might but it’s hard to get enough
>> people to switch and keep the same value when there’s
>> already a critical mass of people here.
>> 
>> Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts
>> used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make
>> chocolate and vanilla”  somethin

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Alex Hall]

Having a second Macvisionaries floating around may indeed prove confusing. I'll 
also say this: good luck with Freelists! I used them when I helped to moderate 
a BrailleNote list, and had no end of problems. Delayed delivery, random bounce 
problems and auto-moderated users, total failure of a reg exp filter to do 
anything at all, problems on some email clients where message subjects would 
get cut off, and more. Hopefully they've addressed these issues by now.
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:30 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> this is me baiscally branching off, so you have to take action:
> subscribing to the list.
> Here's the info from my first message if it helps. It's worth saying
> here that neither of the moderators know about this--I can't even get
> a response from Cara, so this in no way reflects the current list. I'm
> just trying to do something nice and help a good community. You all do
> the rest by building the community, providing questions and answers
> and making the list a general good place to be.
> 
> Here's the subscription info:
> Subscribers can join the list by sending email to
> macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org
> with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries
> 
> On 8/26/2015 8:20 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at
>> 13:43:
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1
>>> 
>>> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
>> Ok. Are we migrated automatically or do we have to take some
>> action?
>> 
> 
> 
> - -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> twitter: @sorressean
> web:http://tysdomain.com
> pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
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> 
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Scott Granados]

Oh no you Dit Int!

;)

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:30 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> OK, so I'm going to address the elephant in the room to which you eluded.  
> Cara, if you're out there, you either need to mod the list yourself, or let 
> it go!  Cara is like a ghost on this list.  Nobody wants to "step on her 
> toes."  She is part of our problem.  From what i can tell, she seems to want 
> to retain some sort of ownership of the list, but then not do anything with 
> it.  that's sort of like buying a house and then just letting it fall into 
> ruin.  If we're all willing to let this list dissolve because of Cara's bad 
> judgment, then maybe a new list is a better plan, as that seems to be the one 
> way we can all get out from under her.  Please understand I barely know Cara, 
> and have no personal grudge against her.  But her handling of this situation 
> has been very bad.
> Best,
> Donna
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:27 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
>> 
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> Hey Donna,
>> I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription
>> requests which I think says a lot to what people want.
>> 
>> I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully
>> moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I
>> think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she
>> decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron
>> fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to
>> people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate
>> so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information.
>> The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this.
>> On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote:
>>> Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you.  When I
>>> modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too
>>> lax.  and i completely agree about the delete key and it's
>>> incredible value. :)  However, unless you decide just not to read
>>> certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of
>>> unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do.  So, we all know
>>> who the problematic posters are.  If someone were to say to them,
>>> either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more
>>> efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados
  wrote:
 
 See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid
 points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically
 gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages
 and using strong cryptography.:)
 
 I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think
 people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.
 My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further
 more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in
 rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with
 to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as
 others may wish to filter differently.  For some reason though
 some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the
 end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation.  As I
 said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different
 choices for different folks.
 
 Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple
 ways to solve the same problem.
 
 Thanks for the response.
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
>  wrote:
> 
>>> Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and
>>> moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others.
>>> For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which
>>> happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a
>>> moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the
>>> community.
>>> 
>>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just
>>> that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community 
>>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide
>>> help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I
>>> myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to
>>> mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM,
>>> Scott Granados wrote:
>>> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like
>>> saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the
>>> folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with
>>> that assertion.;)
>>> 
>>> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the
>>> tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in
>>> to better content.  It might but it’s hard to get enough
>>> people to switch and keep the same value when there’s
>>> already a critical mass of peo

Re: the anti cleaning article

[Scott Granados]

Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
acceptable use over time.

Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only exception 
to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious lack of 
moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore list from Google.  
Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so forth is just disruptive.  
Pending that though I couldn’t see banning someone.

> On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. 
> Removing that person permanently would return the list to a relatively 
> peaceful and more focused environment.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
>> Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, totally 
>> noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back toward the noisy 
>> end.  I too am a great fan of the love-it-or-leave-it style of discussion, 
>> but there’s something to be said for having a person—possibly just one 
>> person—with a hand near to the levers that restore calm and order in times 
>> of imminent crisis.  This goes as well for practically any networked 
>> service, not just email lists.
>> 
> 
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Devin Prater]

I wish there was a tutorial on how to use rules. Not a podcast though, those 
are often too long with 10 minutes of explanation on what the podcast is about, 
when people already know what they chose to listen to. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:20 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Or here’s a counter idea, just create a rule that sends the offender to the 
> bit bucket automatically.  Removes the slog and the offender at the same 
> time.:)
> 
> I use rules all the time not just for filtering out the undesirables but also 
> to filter things like monitoring tool output in to a folder for each customer 
> or RFQs in a folder etc.  As I said though I know there are a lot of ways to 
> get from here to there.  I’m only qualified and barely at that to speak for 
> myself so this is how I’d address the problem but moderation is another very 
> valid way to go.  I was just pointing out the alternative but I definitely 
> support and wish the original poster success and will probably join although 
> I don’t want to stir up his list so I may not only because I have a brain to 
> mouth filter problem.:)
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
>> 
>> Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you.  When I modded the 
>> AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too lax.  and i 
>> completely agree about the delete key and it's incredible value. :)  
>> However, unless you decide just not to read certain people's emails, you do 
>> end up slogging through a lot of unnecessary junk, which few of us have time 
>> to do.  So, we all know who the problematic posters are.  If someone were to 
>> say to them, either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more 
>> efficient, which I think would be a good thing.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid points and 
>>> as a side note I like your posts and automatically gave you more weight 
>>> when I saw you digitally signing messages and using strong cryptography.:)
>>> 
>>> I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think people 
>>> are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.  My thinking is 
>>> that there’s a delete key for a reason and further more if that’s to much 
>>> effort do to the volume there are built in rules that can automatically 
>>> send whom ever you’re annoyed with to ground and remove your personal need 
>>> to see them where as others may wish to filter differently.  For some 
>>> reason though some people need this filtering to be done for them but in 
>>> the end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation.  As I said, 
>>> that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different choices for different 
>>> folks.
>>> 
>>> Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple ways to 
>>> solve the same problem.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the response.
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  
 wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 Hello Scott,
 There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
 who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
 someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
 frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
 continue, said individual is removed from the community.
 
 I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
 it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
 conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
 etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
 am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
 elimenate all the side bickering?
 On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
> policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
> or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
> 
> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
> the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
> might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
> same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
> 
> Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
> say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
> vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.
> 
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
>>  wrote:
>> 
> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
> 
> My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
> done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
> of fits, I created a new list where rules c

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Vivianna]

Great!  i will be joining today!
just because this  list used to be good in the past doesn’t mean we have to 
stay and hope, maybe someday, things get better.
there are so many other relevent other lists around where i won’t have to 
delete so many posts every day.
and, yes, we do need police.  anarchy will never fly, neither here or in the 
USA.  or anywhere else for that matter.  folks can not and will not ever police 
themselves.

Vivianna

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:27 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hey Donna,
> I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription
> requests which I think says a lot to what people want.
> 
> I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully
> moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I
> think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she
> decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron
> fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to
> people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate
> so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information.
> The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this.
> On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote:
>> Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you.  When I
>> modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too
>> lax.  and i completely agree about the delete key and it's
>> incredible value. :)  However, unless you decide just not to read
>> certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of
>> unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do.  So, we all know
>> who the problematic posters are.  If someone were to say to them,
>> either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more
>> efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid
>>> points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically
>>> gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages
>>> and using strong cryptography.:)
>>> 
>>> I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think
>>> people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.
>>> My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further
>>> more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in
>>> rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with
>>> to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as
>>> others may wish to filter differently.  For some reason though
>>> some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the
>>> end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation.  As I
>>> said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different
>>> choices for different folks.
>>> 
>>> Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple
>>> ways to solve the same problem.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for the response.
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
  wrote:
 
>> Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and
>> moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others.
>> For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which
>> happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a
>> moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the
>> community.
>> 
>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just
>> that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community 
>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide
>> help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I
>> myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to
>> mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM,
>> Scott Granados wrote:
>> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like
>> saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the
>> folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with
>> that assertion.;)
>> 
>> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the
>> tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in
>> to better content.  It might but it’s hard to get enough
>> people to switch and keep the same value when there’s
>> already a critical mass of people here.
>> 
>> Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts
>> used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make
>> chocolate and vanilla”  something for the different
>> viewpoints.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this
>> list.
>> 
>> My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is
>> being done to stop it. As a result of the
>> spam/curs

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Devin Prater]

Indeed, she seems to be alive and well on the viPhone list, but we live 
overshadowed by a corpse on this one.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:30 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> OK, so I'm going to address the elephant in the room to which you eluded.  
> Cara, if you're out there, you either need to mod the list yourself, or let 
> it go!  Cara is like a ghost on this list.  Nobody wants to "step on her 
> toes."  She is part of our problem.  From what i can tell, she seems to want 
> to retain some sort of ownership of the list, but then not do anything with 
> it.  that's sort of like buying a house and then just letting it fall into 
> ruin.  If we're all willing to let this list dissolve because of Cara's bad 
> judgment, then maybe a new list is a better plan, as that seems to be the one 
> way we can all get out from under her.  Please understand I barely know Cara, 
> and have no personal grudge against her.  But her handling of this situation 
> has been very bad.
> Best,
> Donna
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:27 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
>> 
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> Hey Donna,
>> I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription
>> requests which I think says a lot to what people want.
>> 
>> I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully
>> moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I
>> think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she
>> decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron
>> fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to
>> people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate
>> so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information.
>> The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this.
>>> On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote:
>>> Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you.  When I
>>> modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too
>>> lax.  and i completely agree about the delete key and it's
>>> incredible value. :)  However, unless you decide just not to read
>>> certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of
>>> unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do.  So, we all know
>>> who the problematic posters are.  If someone were to say to them,
>>> either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more
>>> efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados
  wrote:
 
 See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid
 points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically
 gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages
 and using strong cryptography.:)
 
 I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think
 people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.
 My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further
 more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in
 rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with
 to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as
 others may wish to filter differently.  For some reason though
 some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the
 end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation.  As I
 said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different
 choices for different folks.
 
 Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple
 ways to solve the same problem.
 
 Thanks for the response.
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
>  wrote:
> 
>>> Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and
>>> moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others.
>>> For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which
>>> happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a
>>> moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the
>>> community.
>>> 
>>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just
>>> that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community 
>>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide
>>> help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I
>>> myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to
>>> mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM,
>>> Scott Granados wrote:
>>> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like
>>> saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the
>>> folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with
>>> that assertion.;)
>>> 
>>> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the
>>> tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in
>>> to better content.  It might but it’s hard to g

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Scott Granados]

Viviana, you’re wrong.  I actually live in a community that doesn’t have 24 
hour policing.

I moved there intentionally, that was a huge selling point.  There are massive 
swaths of country that don’t have policing available.  Whether it’s the woods 
like where I live or the Swamps in the south or mountains on the way west there 
are huge blocks of people living with very little policing.

The safest period in US history was the western expansion during the 
1800S.  The government actually supported and paid authors to come up with 
these wild west novels as propaganda to make people want to be controlled by 
police goons instead of living free like they had been successfully.  It’s one 
of the periods with the least crime in our history and the greatest level of 
growth.

This however is better meant for another list but I couldn’t let a comment like 
that slide with out countering.


> On Aug 26, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Vivianna  wrote:
> 
> Great!  i will be joining today!
> just because this  list used to be good in the past doesn’t mean we have to 
> stay and hope, maybe someday, things get better.
> there are so many other relevent other lists around where i won’t have to 
> delete so many posts every day.
> and, yes, we do need police.  anarchy will never fly, neither here or in the 
> USA.  or anywhere else for that matter.  folks can not and will not ever 
> police themselves.
> 
> Vivianna
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:27 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
>> 
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> Hey Donna,
>> I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription
>> requests which I think says a lot to what people want.
>> 
>> I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully
>> moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I
>> think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she
>> decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron
>> fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to
>> people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate
>> so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information.
>> The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this.
>> On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote:
>>> Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you.  When I
>>> modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too
>>> lax.  and i completely agree about the delete key and it's
>>> incredible value. :)  However, unless you decide just not to read
>>> certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of
>>> unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do.  So, we all know
>>> who the problematic posters are.  If someone were to say to them,
>>> either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more
>>> efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados
  wrote:
 
 See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid
 points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically
 gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages
 and using strong cryptography.:)
 
 I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think
 people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.
 My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further
 more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in
 rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with
 to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as
 others may wish to filter differently.  For some reason though
 some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the
 end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation.  As I
 said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different
 choices for different folks.
 
 Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple
 ways to solve the same problem.
 
 Thanks for the response.
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
>  wrote:
> 
>>> Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and
>>> moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others.
>>> For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which
>>> happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a
>>> moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the
>>> community.
>>> 
>>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just
>>> that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community 
>>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide
>>> help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I
>>> myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to
>>> mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM,
>>> Scott Granados wr

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

It does say a lot that the list is in the generally healthy state it’s in now, 
for sure.  I like to think that’s just a kind of natural mutation resulting 
from pressures on opposing sides of the moderation extreme.  However, much as I 
support a hands-off approach, I do feel that some of the nonsense on this list 
really does amount to abuse (of the technical rather than personal kind) and 
should be dealt with on a purely evidence basis as would any spam or clearly 
off-topic mail.  When I said “Times of crisis” I really meant it.  In general, 
even the vilest comments can be dealt with simply by ignoring or filtering, but 
sometimes you just have to hit the emergency-moderate button.

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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Eric Oyen]

there may be another reason for transitioning from here. Google groups web 
interface has been getting increasingly difficult to use over the last year or 
so. SInce I am on an older mac (2007 whitebook), I have noticed some of these 
issues more than most. THere is another problem with google groups: unless 
someone else has admin rights, things can get squarely when the primary admin 
is absent and no one can moderate the troublemakers.

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 5:30 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> this is me baiscally branching off, so you have to take action:
> subscribing to the list.
> Here's the info from my first message if it helps. It's worth saying
> here that neither of the moderators know about this--I can't even get
> a response from Cara, so this in no way reflects the current list. I'm
> just trying to do something nice and help a good community. You all do
> the rest by building the community, providing questions and answers
> and making the list a general good place to be.
> 
> Here's the subscription info:
> Subscribers can join the list by sending email to
> macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org
> with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by visiting the list page at
> http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries
> 
> On 8/26/2015 8:20 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on 26/08/2015 at
>> 13:43:
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1
>>> 
>>> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
>> Ok. Are we migrated automatically or do we have to take some
>> action?
>> 
> 
> 
> - -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> twitter: @sorressean
> web:http://tysdomain.com
> pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2
> 
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> 
> -- 
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> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

Freelists runs on Ecartis, a wonderful mailing list manager for its day, but 
I’d agree, a rather tragic outpost of abandonware now.  Hopefully Freelists 
have changed whatever it was that was still broken about the latest Ecartis, 
but I’ve since unhappily cut over to Mailman, which I hate with a burning 
passion, yet have learned sufficiently to love to run my lists.  Mailman is 
actively maintained and supports all the latest innovations, even if it is 
written in Python and requires the web to moderate; a feature of Ecartis near 
and dear to me was that you could handle all jobs using just email.

Well, I subscribed, and we’ll see how it goes.

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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Krister Ekstrom]

Hi,
I wasn’t going to chime in here at all but rather see where this all 
goes, but here is what i think for what it’s worth: I agree with Donna 
on where this list should go. I’m not entirely sure branching off 
would be the best way of doing things because it would only divide the 
community and leave new people confused.

/Krister


On 26 Aug 2015, at 14:03, Donna Goodin wrote:


Hi all,

As some of you will no doubt recall, I brought this very possibility 
up some months back, when we were getting some rather unpleasant 
emails from someone's hacked account.  It does seem to me that this 
list has had more problems of late, and that having someone setting 
some guidelines and enforcing them would benefit this list.  that 
said, at its best, this has been one of the best lists I've ever been 
on and I would hate to see it disintegrate.  Since tyler is willing to 
take on some of these moderation duties, I wonder if a better option 
would be for tyler and Chris to work together to moderate this list, 
rather than having tyler branch off and start a new one.  Just a 
thought.

Best,
Donna
On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler 
 wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello all:
I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two
people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished
without saying anything.

I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die 
off

or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this
includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another.

To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new
list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts
here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set
of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be
edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have 
questions,

please get in touch with me.

I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted
out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be
putting that call out shortly.

My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions.
Also, the list information is as follows:
Subscribers can join the list by sending email to
macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org
with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
visiting the list page at
http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries

I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me.
- --
Take care,
Ty
twitter: @sorressean
web:http://tysdomain.com
pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
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Re: changing sort order in itunes

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi,

This question appears to need an answer.  iTunes should automatically sort by 
Track number if you have the things sorted by Album.  Therefore, while 
interacting with the table, press VO-shift-back slash, navigate right or left 
to the Album header then VO-space on it.  VO-space a second time will sort it 
descending, again to go back to ascending.  Press VO-shift-back slash to exit 
out of the headers. If the Album column is not visible, stop interacting with 
the Table, VO-left to the Songs pop-up and VO-space on it.  Navigate to he 
pop-up menu two after the Sort By heading and VO-space on it.  Press return on 
the Albums item and it should now be checked and thus be visible in the table.

HTH.

Later...

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Aug 24, 2015, at 07:38, Chris Moore  wrote:

Hello,
This may have been covered before, but
how do I change the sort order of songs within an album?  It appears to be 
sorting by song title where I would prefer track number.

TIA
Chris

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audible books on the Mac

[Faisal ali]

Hi all,
Recently, I’ve subscribed to audible and I wish to be able to read such books 
on my mac. As I understand, this can be done in iTunes but one needs to 
authorize one’s computer to be able to make this happen. Firstly, is there 
anyone on this list who read audible books on their macs? Secondly, how 
accessible was the authorization process? Based on what I read, one needs to 
download a book and once the book finishes downloading, the computer will 
prompt for a audible username and password to authorize the machine.
Thanks much.

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Re: the anti cleaning article

[Yuma Decaux]

A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is moderated, 
and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously abusing others 
verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is to make the offensive 
person reflect on themselves. Banning them would result in upsets and possible 
worse attitudes in other lists.


> On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
> acceptable use over time.
> 
> Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only exception 
> to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious lack of 
> moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore list from 
> Google.  Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so forth is just 
> disruptive.  Pending that though I couldn’t see banning someone.
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. 
>> Removing that person permanently would return the list to a relatively 
>> peaceful and more focused environment.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>> On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
>>> Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, totally 
>>> noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back toward the noisy 
>>> end.  I too am a great fan of the love-it-or-leave-it style of discussion, 
>>> but there’s something to be said for having a person—possibly just one 
>>> person—with a hand near to the levers that restore calm and order in times 
>>> of imminent crisis.  This goes as well for practically any networked 
>>> service, not just email lists.
>>> 
>> 
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> 
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Re: the anti cleaning article

[E.T.]

   There are as many opinions here as there are members of this group. 
This issue is generating a lot of traffic that is not helpful to the 
grpup. We have one person who cannot control himself. Banning him will 
break the fever and let the group move on.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 8/26/2015 7:31 AM, Yuma Decaux wrote:

A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is moderated, 
and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously abusing others 
verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is to make the offensive 
person reflect on themselves. Banning them would result in upsets and possible 
worse attitudes in other lists.



On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:

Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
acceptable use over time.

Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only exception 
to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious lack of 
moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore list from Google.  
Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so forth is just disruptive.  
Pending that though I couldn’t see banning someone.


On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:

  It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. Removing 
that person permanently would return the list to a relatively peaceful and more 
focused environment.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:

Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, totally 
noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back toward the noisy 
end.  I too am a great fan of the love-it-or-leave-it style of discussion, but 
there’s something to be said for having a person—possibly just one person—with 
a hand near to the levers that restore calm and order in times of imminent 
crisis.  This goes as well for practically any networked service, not just 
email lists.



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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Yuma Decaux]

Hi All,

As one of the older members of this list, I want to add an emphasis on how the 
filter does not really work as the replies and objections to the abuse still 
keep streaming in. Meaning I have to sift through fallout emails from the 
abuse, as well as replies commenting on how off topic this one person’s posts 
are.

There is, in my opinion, one issue. One person who keeps abusing others without 
really handing logical or rational justifications for the abuse. A moderator is 
useful in that respect and I fully support the idea of having someone just put 
some order in the list. Not handing bans and evictions like flyers but some 
kind of a public warning with well intended words. Otherwise this list will end 
up being a boudoir more than a list for talking about voice over. 

I had ignored this place for a while due to the number of threatening responses 
etc I got from a single user in the list who apparently has not abated his 
diatribes, emotional tantrums and other such inconsistencies throughout. I 
don’t receive his emails anymore, but he clearly is overshadowing this list 
with his brand of abusive language and non sequitur posts.

There are many of us on this list who are real developers and work hard in 
communicating various useful links and opinions, some of us have been 
dilligently bug reporting on non public betas for years with the intention to 
make the experience better, and care about this list. But of late, this has 
turned into a free for all firing range. Maybe it’s time to give it a 
renaissance, and really have someone step in and provide the necessary tools to 
keep it together without it being something of a totalitarian group, which in 
itself is ridiculous considering we are memebers of a virtual community.

And if there needs to be some shaving off elements who clearly don’t understand 
due process when interacting with others, then first go through the due process 
of warning that person. If all of these emails from one thread, most talking 
about the same person, is not a sign of consensus then what is?

Have a great day 

> On 26/08/2015, at 11:13 PM, Krister Ekstrom  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I wasn’t going to chime in here at all but rather see where this all goes, 
> but here is what i think for what it’s worth: I agree with Donna on where 
> this list should go. I’m not entirely sure branching off would be the best 
> way of doing things because it would only divide the community and leave new 
> people confused.
> /Krister
> 
> 
> On 26 Aug 2015, at 14:03, Donna Goodin wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> As some of you will no doubt recall, I brought this very possibility up some 
>> months back, when we were getting some rather unpleasant emails from 
>> someone's hacked account.  It does seem to me that this list has had more 
>> problems of late, and that having someone setting some guidelines and 
>> enforcing them would benefit this list.  that said, at its best, this has 
>> been one of the best lists I've ever been on and I would hate to see it 
>> disintegrate.  Since tyler is willing to take on some of these moderation 
>> duties, I wonder if a better option would be for tyler and Chris to work 
>> together to moderate this list, rather than having tyler branch off and 
>> start a new one.  Just a thought.
>> Best,
>> Donna
>>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 10:29 PM, Littlefield, Tyler  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>> 
>>> Hello all:
>>> I understand there's been a lot of mess on this list and at least two
>>> people I know of have left--that's not counting however many vanished
>>> without saying anything.
>>> 
>>> I believe this is a great community and I don't want to see it die off
>>> or fall under the issues it has been. I understand a lot of us (this
>>> includes me) are at fault to one extreme or another.
>>> 
>>> To this end and to try to preserve this community, I've started a new
>>> list. I'd like to welcome everyone to join. Regardless of past posts
>>> here and anything else, we start with a clean slate. There are a set
>>> of well-defined rules; if you join and see something that needs to be
>>> edited/added, please do let me know. Similarly, if you have questions,
>>> please get in touch with me.
>>> 
>>> I will be the only moderator at present until everything is soarted
>>> out, then I'd like to get someone else involved. I'll probably be
>>> putting that call out shortly.
>>> 
>>> My personal address is ty...@tysdomain.com for any questions.
>>> Also, the list information is as follows:
>>> Subscribers can join the list by sending email to
>>> macvisionaries-requ...@freelists.org
>>> with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
>>> visiting the list page at
>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/macvisionaries
>>> 
>>> I hope that this will help. Plese feel free to get in touch with me.
>>> - --
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> twitter: @sorressean
>>> web:http://tysdomain.com
>>> pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
>>> -

Re: the anti cleaning article

[Yuma Decaux]

ET is right, I am afraid to say this.

I cannot count the number of times this person has fired out, insulted, then 
asked pardon, justifying some personal issues which do not belong to any 
mailing list, then repeat the process almost within the hour. If he is so 
defensive and threatening towards so many people, this is because these 
responders also feel offended by his words. There is a democratic process going 
on, a natural finger pointing of someone who just abuses the fact that there 
are no moderators in this list. Some of us try to resolve this one way or the 
other but nothing will be done if no one takes action, gas bagging and 
cackering instead in the drainpipe of opinionated expression. The latter is 
useless. Action can solve everything.

Take care 



> On 27/08/2015, at 12:43 AM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   There are as many opinions here as there are members of this group. This 
> issue is generating a lot of traffic that is not helpful to the grpup. We 
> have one person who cannot control himself. Banning him will break the fever 
> and let the group move on.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 8/26/2015 7:31 AM, Yuma Decaux wrote:
>> A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is 
>> moderated, and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously abusing 
>> others verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is to make the 
>> offensive person reflect on themselves. Banning them would result in upsets 
>> and possible worse attitudes in other lists.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
>>> acceptable use over time.
>>> 
>>> Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only 
>>> exception to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious 
>>> lack of moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore list 
>>> from Google.  Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so forth is 
>>> just disruptive.  Pending that though I couldn’t see banning someone.
>>> 
 On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
 
  It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. 
 Removing that person permanently would return the list to a relatively 
 peaceful and more focused environment.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 Many believe that we have been visited
 in the past. What if it were true?
 
 On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
> Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, 
> totally noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back toward 
> the noisy end.  I too am a great fan of the love-it-or-leave-it style of 
> discussion, but there’s something to be said for having a person—possibly 
> just one person—with a hand near to the levers that restore calm and 
> order in times of imminent crisis.  This goes as well for practically any 
> networked service, not just email lists.
> 
 
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>>> 
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>> 
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Re: the anti cleaning article

[Scott Granados]

Just add the objectionable person to a rule and move it automatically to the 
trash.

Simple, problem solved and no moderation.

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Yuma Decaux  wrote:
> 
> ET is right, I am afraid to say this.
> 
> I cannot count the number of times this person has fired out, insulted, then 
> asked pardon, justifying some personal issues which do not belong to any 
> mailing list, then repeat the process almost within the hour. If he is so 
> defensive and threatening towards so many people, this is because these 
> responders also feel offended by his words. There is a democratic process 
> going on, a natural finger pointing of someone who just abuses the fact that 
> there are no moderators in this list. Some of us try to resolve this one way 
> or the other but nothing will be done if no one takes action, gas bagging and 
> cackering instead in the drainpipe of opinionated expression. The latter is 
> useless. Action can solve everything.
> 
> Take care 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 27/08/2015, at 12:43 AM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  There are as many opinions here as there are members of this group. This 
>> issue is generating a lot of traffic that is not helpful to the grpup. We 
>> have one person who cannot control himself. Banning him will break the fever 
>> and let the group move on.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>> On 8/26/2015 7:31 AM, Yuma Decaux wrote:
>>> A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is 
>>> moderated, and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously abusing 
>>> others verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is to make the 
>>> offensive person reflect on themselves. Banning them would result in upsets 
>>> and possible worse attitudes in other lists.
>>> 
>>> 
 On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
 acceptable use over time.
 
 Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only 
 exception to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious 
 lack of moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore list 
 from Google.  Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so forth is 
 just disruptive.  Pending that though I couldn’t see banning someone.
 
> On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. 
> Removing that person permanently would return the list to a relatively 
> peaceful and more focused environment.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
>> Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, 
>> totally noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back 
>> toward the noisy end.  I too am a great fan of the love-it-or-leave-it 
>> style of discussion, but there’s something to be said for having a 
>> person—possibly just one person—with a hand near to the levers that 
>> restore calm and order in times of imminent crisis.  This goes as well 
>> for practically any networked service, not just email lists.
>> 
> 
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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 --
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 "MacVisionaries" group.
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 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>> 
>> 
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Re: the anti cleaning article

[Yuma Decaux]

The point is, that does not work since there are others who reply to his 
abuses, and I receive these emails too. I’m not going to rule everyone for one 
offensive member.



> On 27/08/2015, at 1:04 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Just add the objectionable person to a rule and move it automatically to the 
> trash.
> 
> Simple, problem solved and no moderation.
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Yuma Decaux  wrote:
>> 
>> ET is right, I am afraid to say this.
>> 
>> I cannot count the number of times this person has fired out, insulted, then 
>> asked pardon, justifying some personal issues which do not belong to any 
>> mailing list, then repeat the process almost within the hour. If he is so 
>> defensive and threatening towards so many people, this is because these 
>> responders also feel offended by his words. There is a democratic process 
>> going on, a natural finger pointing of someone who just abuses the fact that 
>> there are no moderators in this list. Some of us try to resolve this one way 
>> or the other but nothing will be done if no one takes action, gas bagging 
>> and cackering instead in the drainpipe of opinionated expression. The latter 
>> is useless. Action can solve everything.
>> 
>> Take care 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 27/08/2015, at 12:43 AM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> There are as many opinions here as there are members of this group. This 
>>> issue is generating a lot of traffic that is not helpful to the grpup. We 
>>> have one person who cannot control himself. Banning him will break the 
>>> fever and let the group move on.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
>>> On 8/26/2015 7:31 AM, Yuma Decaux wrote:
 A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is 
 moderated, and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously 
 abusing others verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is to 
 make the offensive person reflect on themselves. Banning them would result 
 in upsets and possible worse attitudes in other lists.
 
 
> On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  
> wrote:
> 
> Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
> acceptable use over time.
> 
> Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only 
> exception to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious 
> lack of moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore list 
> from Google.  Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so forth is 
> just disruptive.  Pending that though I couldn’t see banning someone.
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. 
>> Removing that person permanently would return the list to a relatively 
>> peaceful and more focused environment.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>> On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
>>> Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, 
>>> totally noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back 
>>> toward the noisy end.  I too am a great fan of the love-it-or-leave-it 
>>> style of discussion, but there’s something to be said for having a 
>>> person—possibly just one person—with a hand near to the levers that 
>>> restore calm and order in times of imminent crisis.  This goes as well 
>>> for practically any networked service, not just email lists.
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.c

how long is this subjectline being used for any comments LOLRE: the anti cleaning article

[george b]

Well here is part of the issue the subject lind does not match up to the 
conversation any more and now this is really a big issue on this list also!!!

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Yuma Decaux
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 08:09
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: the anti cleaning article

The point is, that does not work since there are others who reply to his 
abuses, and I receive these emails too. I’m not going to rule everyone for one 
offensive member.



> On 27/08/2015, at 1:04 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Just add the objectionable person to a rule and move it automatically to the 
> trash.
> 
> Simple, problem solved and no moderation.
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Yuma Decaux  wrote:
>> 
>> ET is right, I am afraid to say this.
>> 
>> I cannot count the number of times this person has fired out, insulted, then 
>> asked pardon, justifying some personal issues which do not belong to any 
>> mailing list, then repeat the process almost within the hour. If he is so 
>> defensive and threatening towards so many people, this is because these 
>> responders also feel offended by his words. There is a democratic process 
>> going on, a natural finger pointing of someone who just abuses the fact that 
>> there are no moderators in this list. Some of us try to resolve this one way 
>> or the other but nothing will be done if no one takes action, gas bagging 
>> and cackering instead in the drainpipe of opinionated expression. The latter 
>> is useless. Action can solve everything.
>> 
>> Take care 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 27/08/2015, at 12:43 AM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> There are as many opinions here as there are members of this group. This 
>>> issue is generating a lot of traffic that is not helpful to the grpup. We 
>>> have one person who cannot control himself. Banning him will break the 
>>> fever and let the group move on.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
>>> On 8/26/2015 7:31 AM, Yuma Decaux wrote:
 A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is 
 moderated, and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously 
 abusing others verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is to 
 make the offensive person reflect on themselves. Banning them would result 
 in upsets and possible worse attitudes in other lists.
 
 
> On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  
> wrote:
> 
> Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
> acceptable use over time.
> 
> Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only 
> exception to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious 
> lack of moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore list 
> from Google.  Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so forth is 
> just disruptive.  Pending that though I couldn’t see banning someone.
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. 
>> Removing that person permanently would return the list to a relatively 
>> peaceful and more focused environment.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>> On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
>>> Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, 
>>> totally noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back 
>>> toward the noisy end.  I too am a great fan of the love-it-or-leave-it 
>>> style of discussion, but there’s something to be said for having a 
>>> person—possibly just one person—with a hand near to the levers that 
>>> restore calm and order in times of imminent crisis.  This goes as well 
>>> for practically any networked service, not just email lists.
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: audible books on the Mac

[Andrew Lamanche]

Hello,

Open Itunes and go to the "store" menu item and arrow down to the item 
authorise this computer for audible account or something very similar.  This 
will allow you to authorise your computer to play audible books via ituens.  
remember to deauthorise your computer with Audible should you have to change 
your computers or wipe it clean because Audible only allows a number of devices 
to play their content.

Andrew
> On 26 Aug 2015, at 14:58, Faisal ali  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> Recently, I’ve subscribed to audible and I wish to be able to read such books 
> on my mac. As I understand, this can be done in iTunes but one needs to 
> authorize one’s computer to be able to make this happen. Firstly, is there 
> anyone on this list who read audible books on their macs? Secondly, how 
> accessible was the authorization process? Based on what I read, one needs to 
> download a book and once the book finishes downloading, the computer will 
> prompt for a audible username and password to authorize the machine.
> Thanks much.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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Re: the anti cleaning article

[Jim Gatteys]

Why should everybody have to create a rule to filter out one objectionable 
person when a moderator could handle that quickly and efficiently.

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Just add the objectionable person to a rule and move it automatically to the 
> trash.
> 
> Simple, problem solved and no moderation.
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Yuma Decaux  wrote:
>> 
>> ET is right, I am afraid to say this.
>> 
>> I cannot count the number of times this person has fired out, insulted, then 
>> asked pardon, justifying some personal issues which do not belong to any 
>> mailing list, then repeat the process almost within the hour. If he is so 
>> defensive and threatening towards so many people, this is because these 
>> responders also feel offended by his words. There is a democratic process 
>> going on, a natural finger pointing of someone who just abuses the fact that 
>> there are no moderators in this list. Some of us try to resolve this one way 
>> or the other but nothing will be done if no one takes action, gas bagging 
>> and cackering instead in the drainpipe of opinionated expression. The latter 
>> is useless. Action can solve everything.
>> 
>> Take care 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 27/08/2015, at 12:43 AM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> There are as many opinions here as there are members of this group. This 
>>> issue is generating a lot of traffic that is not helpful to the grpup. We 
>>> have one person who cannot control himself. Banning him will break the 
>>> fever and let the group move on.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
>>> On 8/26/2015 7:31 AM, Yuma Decaux wrote:
 A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is 
 moderated, and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously 
 abusing others verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is to 
 make the offensive person reflect on themselves. Banning them would result 
 in upsets and possible worse attitudes in other lists.
 
 
> On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  
> wrote:
> 
> Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
> acceptable use over time.
> 
> Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only 
> exception to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious 
> lack of moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore list 
> from Google.  Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so forth is 
> just disruptive.  Pending that though I couldn’t see banning someone.
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. 
>> Removing that person permanently would return the list to a relatively 
>> peaceful and more focused environment.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>> On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
>>> Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, 
>>> totally noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back 
>>> toward the noisy end.  I too am a great fan of the love-it-or-leave-it 
>>> style of discussion, but there’s something to be said for having a 
>>> person—possibly just one person—with a hand near to the levers that 
>>> restore calm and order in times of imminent crisis.  This goes as well 
>>> for practically any networked service, not just email lists.
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this grou

Re: audible books on the Mac

[Faisal ali]

Hi there Andrew,
This is no longer the way its done since iTunes 12.2. According to the help 
page I read, the only way to authorize is by downloading a book. If you look in 
the store menu in iTunes, they only thing pertinent to audible is reauthorize 
audible account, not authorize.

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:26 AM, Andrew Lamanche  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Open Itunes and go to the "store" menu item and arrow down to the item 
> authorise this computer for audible account or something very similar.  This 
> will allow you to authorise your computer to play audible books via ituens.  
> remember to deauthorise your computer with Audible should you have to change 
> your computers or wipe it clean because Audible only allows a number of 
> devices to play their content.
> 
> Andrew
>> On 26 Aug 2015, at 14:58, Faisal ali  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> Recently, I’ve subscribed to audible and I wish to be able to read such 
>> books on my mac. As I understand, this can be done in iTunes but one needs 
>> to authorize one’s computer to be able to make this happen. Firstly, is 
>> there anyone on this list who read audible books on their macs? Secondly, 
>> how accessible was the authorization process? Based on what I read, one 
>> needs to download a book and once the book finishes downloading, the 
>> computer will prompt for a audible username and password to authorize the 
>> machine.
>> Thanks much.
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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Re: audible books on the Mac

[jeff `greene]

Hi, The way I did it, was to put the audible book where i wanted it.
Then iopen itunes and hit command+o choose the folder where the book
is located. Itunes will automatically ask you to authorize the
computer for audible. And, then you're all set.
Jeff


On 8/26/15, Faisal ali  wrote:
> Hi there Andrew,
> This is no longer the way its done since iTunes 12.2. According to the help
> page I read, the only way to authorize is by downloading a book. If you look
> in the store menu in iTunes, they only thing pertinent to audible is
> reauthorize audible account, not authorize.
>
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:26 AM, Andrew Lamanche  wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Open Itunes and go to the "store" menu item and arrow down to the item
>> authorise this computer for audible account or something very similar.
>> This will allow you to authorise your computer to play audible books via
>> ituens.  remember to deauthorise your computer with Audible should you
>> have to change your computers or wipe it clean because Audible only allows
>> a number of devices to play their content.
>>
>> Andrew
>>> On 26 Aug 2015, at 14:58, Faisal ali  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> Recently, I’ve subscribed to audible and I wish to be able to read such
>>> books on my mac. As I understand, this can be done in iTunes but one
>>> needs to authorize one’s computer to be able to make this happen.
>>> Firstly, is there anyone on this list who read audible books on their
>>> macs? Secondly, how accessible was the authorization process? Based on
>>> what I read, one needs to download a book and once the book finishes
>>> downloading, the computer will prompt for a audible username and password
>>> to authorize the machine.
>>> Thanks much.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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Re: the anti cleaning article

[Scott Granados]

That’s an easy one, because no one person can and should speak for anyone else.

We’ve already discussed on this thread what happens when a moderator goes all 
power hungry.  I remember when it happened on an iteration of this list 
probably 4 years back now and most people left the group because the moderator 
in this case was on crack.

On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:57 AM, Jim Gatteys  wrote:
> 
> Why should everybody have to create a rule to filter out one objectionable 
> person when a moderator could handle that quickly and efficiently.
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Scott Granados  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Just add the objectionable person to a rule and move it automatically to the 
>> trash.
>> 
>> Simple, problem solved and no moderation.
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Yuma Decaux  wrote:
>>> 
>>> ET is right, I am afraid to say this.
>>> 
>>> I cannot count the number of times this person has fired out, insulted, 
>>> then asked pardon, justifying some personal issues which do not belong to 
>>> any mailing list, then repeat the process almost within the hour. If he is 
>>> so defensive and threatening towards so many people, this is because these 
>>> responders also feel offended by his words. There is a democratic process 
>>> going on, a natural finger pointing of someone who just abuses the fact 
>>> that there are no moderators in this list. Some of us try to resolve this 
>>> one way or the other but nothing will be done if no one takes action, gas 
>>> bagging and cackering instead in the drainpipe of opinionated expression. 
>>> The latter is useless. Action can solve everything.
>>> 
>>> Take care 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On 27/08/2015, at 12:43 AM, E.T.  wrote:
 
 There are as many opinions here as there are members of this group. This 
 issue is generating a lot of traffic that is not helpful to the grpup. We 
 have one person who cannot control himself. Banning him will break the 
 fever and let the group move on.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 Many believe that we have been visited
 in the past. What if it were true?
 
 On 8/26/2015 7:31 AM, Yuma Decaux wrote:
> A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is 
> moderated, and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously 
> abusing others verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is to 
> make the offensive person reflect on themselves. Banning them would 
> result in upsets and possible worse attitudes in other lists.
> 
> 
>> On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
>> acceptable use over time.
>> 
>> Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only 
>> exception to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious 
>> lack of moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore 
>> list from Google.  Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so 
>> forth is just disruptive.  Pending that though I couldn’t see banning 
>> someone.
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. 
>>> Removing that person permanently would return the list to a relatively 
>>> peaceful and more focused environment.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
>>> On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
 Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, 
 totally noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back 
 toward the noisy end.  I too am a great fan of the love-it-or-leave-it 
 style of discussion, but there’s something to be said for having a 
 person—possibly just one person—with a hand near to the levers that 
 restore calm and order in times of imminent crisis.  This goes as well 
 for practically any networked service, not just email lists.
 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.co

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Mary Otten]

For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have 
new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that 
is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree 
with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of 
several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a 
right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to 
write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant  for 
everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that 
list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who 
do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like 
unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out 
the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many 
months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or 
heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people 
simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, 
or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the 
chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain 
but would have an active moderator who did his or her job.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hello Scott,
> There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
> who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
> someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
> frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
> continue, said individual is removed from the community.
> 
> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
> it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
> etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
> am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
> elimenate all the side bickering?
> On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
>> policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
>> or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
>> 
>> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
>> the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
>> might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
>> same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
>> 
>> Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
>> say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
>> vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
>> 
>> My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
>> done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
>> of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
>> can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele
>> Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
> 
> 
> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on
> 26/08/2015 at 05:29:
> 
> Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What
> is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel.
> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this
>>> group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this
>>> group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this
>>> group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more
>>> options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
> 
> - -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> twitter: @sorressean
> web:http://tysdomain.com
> pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2
> 
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> =dU2/
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.co

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Scott Granados]

I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else 
instead of deal with it themselves.

If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t.  Nobody forces 
you to read anything.

These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone 
said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or 
another.
Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view 
is the right view so all others be damned.

wow



> On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have 
> new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know 
> that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't 
> agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a 
> list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did 
> not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people 
> be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make 
> itunpleasant  for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who 
> signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be 
> followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off 
> the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check 
> one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which 
> was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one 
> strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear 
> overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a 
> moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I 
> guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best 
> of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who 
> did his or her job.
> Mary
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > > wrote:
>> 
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> Hello Scott,
>> There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
>> who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
>> someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
>> frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
>> continue, said individual is removed from the community.
>> 
>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
>> it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
>> etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
>> am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
>> elimenate all the side bickering?
>> On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
>>> policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
>>> or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
>>> 
>>> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
>>> the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
>>> might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
>>> same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
>>> 
>>> Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
>>> say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
>>> vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
  wrote:
 
>>> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
>>> 
>>> My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
>>> done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
>>> of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
>>> can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele
>>> Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on
>> 26/08/2015 at 05:29:
>> 
>> Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What
>> is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 
 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
 Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this
 group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
 macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
 . To post to this
 group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
 . Visit this
 group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
 . For more
 options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/opt

destructive people and their right to freedom of speech

[Jim Gatteys]

I guess we'll just have to see what happens.
I personally think it is counter productive to let one person make the entire 
list not a good place for its members.  But with all this discussion we are 
giving him more attention which is probably what he wants in the first place.
Jim

  
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> That’s an easy one, because no one person can and should speak for anyone 
> else.
> 
> We’ve already discussed on this thread what happens when a moderator goes all 
> power hungry.  I remember when it happened on an iteration of this list 
> probably 4 years back now and most people left the group because the 
> moderator in this case was on crack.
> 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:57 AM, Jim Gatteys  wrote:
>> 
>> Why should everybody have to create a rule to filter out one objectionable 
>> person when a moderator could handle that quickly and efficiently.
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just add the objectionable person to a rule and move it automatically to 
>>> the trash.
>>> 
>>> Simple, problem solved and no moderation.
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Yuma Decaux  wrote:
 
 ET is right, I am afraid to say this.
 
 I cannot count the number of times this person has fired out, insulted, 
 then asked pardon, justifying some personal issues which do not belong to 
 any mailing list, then repeat the process almost within the hour. If he is 
 so defensive and threatening towards so many people, this is because these 
 responders also feel offended by his words. There is a democratic process 
 going on, a natural finger pointing of someone who just abuses the fact 
 that there are no moderators in this list. Some of us try to resolve this 
 one way or the other but nothing will be done if no one takes action, gas 
 bagging and cackering instead in the drainpipe of opinionated expression. 
 The latter is useless. Action can solve everything.
 
 Take care 
 
 
 
> On 27/08/2015, at 12:43 AM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> There are as many opinions here as there are members of this group. This 
> issue is generating a lot of traffic that is not helpful to the grpup. We 
> have one person who cannot control himself. Banning him will break the 
> fever and let the group move on.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 8/26/2015 7:31 AM, Yuma Decaux wrote:
>> A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is 
>> moderated, and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously 
>> abusing others verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is to 
>> make the offensive person reflect on themselves. Banning them would 
>> result in upsets and possible worse attitudes in other lists.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
>>> acceptable use over time.
>>> 
>>> Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only 
>>> exception to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious 
>>> lack of moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore 
>>> list from Google.  Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so 
>>> forth is just disruptive.  Pending that though I couldn’t see banning 
>>> someone.
>>> 
 On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
 
 It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. 
 Removing that person permanently would return the list to a relatively 
 peaceful and more focused environment.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 Many believe that we have been visited
 in the past. What if it were true?
 
 On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
> Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, 
> totally noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back 
> toward the noisy end.  I too am a great fan of the 
> love-it-or-leave-it style of discussion, but there’s something to be 
> said for having a person—possibly just one person—with a hand near to 
> the levers that restore calm and order in times of imminent crisis.  
> This goes as well for practically any networked service, not just 
> email lists.
> 
 
 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
 Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
 an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 To post to this gr

Re: audible books on the Mac

[Andrew Lamanche]

Sorry, I run the latest iTunes and I still have "deauthorise" audible account" 
under the store menu item so I assumed there would have been its opposite, .e. 
"authorise audible account'.  Didn't mean to mislead.

Andrew
> On 26 Aug 2015, at 16:59, Faisal ali  wrote:
> 
> Hi there Andrew,
> This is no longer the way its done since iTunes 12.2. According to the help 
> page I read, the only way to authorize is by downloading a book. If you look 
> in the store menu in iTunes, they only thing pertinent to audible is 
> reauthorize audible account, not authorize.
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:26 AM, Andrew Lamanche  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Open Itunes and go to the "store" menu item and arrow down to the item 
>> authorise this computer for audible account or something very similar.  This 
>> will allow you to authorise your computer to play audible books via ituens.  
>> remember to deauthorise your computer with Audible should you have to change 
>> your computers or wipe it clean because Audible only allows a number of 
>> devices to play their content.
>> 
>> Andrew
>>> On 26 Aug 2015, at 14:58, Faisal ali  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> Recently, I’ve subscribed to audible and I wish to be able to read such 
>>> books on my mac. As I understand, this can be done in iTunes but one needs 
>>> to authorize one’s computer to be able to make this happen. Firstly, is 
>>> there anyone on this list who read audible books on their macs? Secondly, 
>>> how accessible was the authorization process? Based on what I read, one 
>>> needs to download a book and once the book finishes downloading, the 
>>> computer will prompt for a audible username and password to authorize the 
>>> machine.
>>> Thanks much.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Littlefield, Tyler]

Hello:
I actually tried for the best of both worlds here. I’ve reached out to Cara 
numerous times, even mentioned her on twitter and gotten no response. This was 
the last solution for me, but one which I really do think will work. So I do 
want it known that I have exhausted all possibilities short of banging on her 
door.

thanks,
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have 
> new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know 
> that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't 
> agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a 
> list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did 
> not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people 
> be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make 
> itunpleasant  for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who 
> signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be 
> followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken off 
> the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check 
> one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which 
> was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one 
> strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear 
> overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a 
> moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I 
> guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best 
> of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who 
> did his or her job.
> Mary
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
>> 
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> Hello Scott,
>> There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
>> who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
>> someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
>> frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
>> continue, said individual is removed from the community.
>> 
>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
>> it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
>> etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
>> am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
>> elimenate all the side bickering?
>> On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
>>> policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
>>> or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
>>> 
>>> You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
>>> the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
>>> might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
>>> same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
>>> 
>>> Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
>>> say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
>>> vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
  wrote:
 
>>> Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
>>> 
>>> My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
>>> done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
>>> of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
>>> can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele
>>> Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on
>> 26/08/2015 at 05:29:
>> 
>> Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What
>> is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 
 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
 Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this
 group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
 macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this
 group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this
 group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more
 options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>> 
>> 
>> - -- 
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> twitter: @sorressean
>> web:http://tysdomain.com
>> pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>> Version: GnuPG v2
>> 
>> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV3alUAAoJEAdP60+BYxejxMwIAImQRu113TefMhLFWF3sojAa
>> 2aZWJcXwMal0PD5no1QDzCFaiiXTmSms/FMweB9gJF+p94U1BcQAx+agtmh0wtXW
>> Ic7nYfYlmCYBo4iOi5jaW/ew3kZqlO5B6z

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Jonathan Mosen]

Hi Tyler and all. As someone who has participated in these sorts of forums for 
around 30 years, dating back to the FidoNet days, I generally have a policy of 
not fuelling the flames by making comments on the drama. I've also run many 
lists in my time, and like you, I don't agree that a totally hands-off approach 
works, especially because even if you filter the problem child, it can be 
difficult to filter the responses to the problem child. Then you get yourself 
into a situation where you spend so much time tweaking your filters, you may as 
well just unsubscribe, which I've been considering doing.
When the person who is the source of at least 80% of the current problems 
resubscribed to this list, I thought the cycle would repeat itself, as I've 
seen it do on several occasions on this list. It goes like this, things start 
off OK, then the posts get increasingly inappropriate, then people object to 
his behaviour, then, finally, he throws a tantrum and unsubscribes, and we all 
get on with our lives. For whatever reason, the latter part of this sequence 
hasn't happened as quickly as it usually does.
This list needs a moderator. It does not have one right now, it only has an 
owner.
So congratulations to you for starting another list. It's a free world and 
anyone can start any list on any topic they choose, and people can make a 
decision to subscribe or not based on whether they think it will add value and 
is worthy of their time.
I would seriously  consider subscribing, but will not, for one important 
reason. I think using the name MacVisionaries is dishonest, inappropriate, and 
taking advantage of years of effort on the part of others. I am not in any way 
suggesting that you are a dishonest person. I am merely referring to this 
particular action. MacVisionaries is a strong brand. It's a rapidly 
deteriorating one, but it has helped many people. Just because you want to 
start a new list, doesn't mean this one is going away any time soon. When 
people use a search engine to find MacVisionaries, and get two lists, how are 
they supposed to differentiate?
If your list is going to be well-moderated, and there will be people actively 
ensuring it adds value to those contributing, why would you want to be 
associated with a brand that, presently, is in trouble?
I would strongly urge you, as a sign of respect for all this current list has 
given to the community, and more to the point, the individuals who created this 
list, to do the right thing and think of a name of your own.
All the best with it, whatever you decide to do.


Jonathan Mosen
Mosen Consulting
Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
http://Mosen.org

> On 27/08/2015, at 5:15 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
> 
> Hello:
> I actually tried for the best of both worlds here. I’ve reached out to Cara 
> numerous times, even mentioned her on twitter and gotten no response. This 
> was the last solution for me, but one which I really do think will work. So I 
> do want it known that I have exhausted all possibilities short of banging on 
> her door.
> 
> thanks,
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have 
>> new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know 
>> that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't 
>> agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a 
>> list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did 
>> not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people 
>> be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make 
>> itunpleasant  for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who 
>> signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be 
>> followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken 
>> off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to 
>> check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, 
>> which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for 
>> one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes 
>> clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, 
>> then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. 
>> So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in 
>> the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active 
>> moderator who did his or her job.
>> Mary
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
>>> 
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>> 
>>> Hello Scott,
>>> There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
>>> who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
>>> someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty

Re: the anti cleaning article

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

Of course, as always, it helps to remember that if nobody replied to the 
abuser, we wouldn’t have these issues.  But it also helps to know that a 
moderator can do this quickly in response to a general consensus or clear harm 
being done, and that, for better or worse, people will respond angrily to 
threads and contribute to their derailment.  I see no reason why anybody’s 
freedoms should be impacted by such moderation, only the benefits that come 
from a more efficient filter on the list mail than would be achievable 
otherwise by individual members, especially when the only tools available to 
them are on their devices.

So, as I said previously, I regard this as a matter of administration, not 
ethics.  Having a moderator around is simply important for damage 
control—nothing more.

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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Scott Granados]

I like your solution.  People who want a little oversight can take that option 
and people who don’t are able to stay as is.

Couldn’t be much more fair than that.

I’d say to the folks concerned about fragmentation that happy users on the list 
even if fragments of the former list are probably better than a large list of 
constant complaints mixed in with some content.  I also like the fact in your 
specific case you’ve taken a lot of pains to stress how light touched your 
moderation style is which seems reasonable.

My pushback was mainly geared towards people wanting to bring back the original 
moderator or concerned with what she had to say.  I think at this stage nobody 
cares and nobody wants to go back to that time period of overreaching power 
grabbing that was the moderation of the list before.

Also I’m not a fan of moderation but as I said I’m only qualified to speak for 
me and barely qualified at that.:)  Others may feel differently and that’s a 
good thing.

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:15 PM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
> 
> Hello:
> I actually tried for the best of both worlds here. I’ve reached out to Cara 
> numerous times, even mentioned her on twitter and gotten no response. This 
> was the last solution for me, but one which I really do think will work. So I 
> do want it known that I have exhausted all possibilities short of banging on 
> her door.
> 
> thanks,
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have 
>> new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know 
>> that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't 
>> agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a 
>> list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did 
>> not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people 
>> be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make 
>> itunpleasant  for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who 
>> signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be 
>> followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken 
>> off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to 
>> check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, 
>> which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for 
>> one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes 
>> clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, 
>> then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. 
>> So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in 
>> the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active 
>> moderator who did his or her job.
>> Mary
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:
>>> 
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>> 
>>> Hello Scott,
>>> There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
>>> who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
>>> someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
>>> frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
>>> continue, said individual is removed from the community.
>>> 
>>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
>>> it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
>>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
>>> etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
>>> am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
>>> elimenate all the side bickering?
>>> On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
 I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
 policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
 or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
 
 You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
 the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
 might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
 same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
 
 Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
 say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
 vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.
 
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
>  wrote:
> 
 Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
 
 My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
 done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
 of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
 can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriel

suggestion [was: Re: the anti cleaning article]

[Eric Oyen]

may I offer a suggestion? there are mail filters that can be applied from the 
end user. Most mail clients can actually do this based on a number of criteria. 
So, if someone uses a foul tongue and makes threats, just filter their mail 
into the trash based on that offenders email address, or based on a list of 
words that are offensive. THe offender will realize with alacrity that his 
messages are being ignore and will go elsewhere.

Just a thought.

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:

> Of course, as always, it helps to remember that if nobody replied to the 
> abuser, we wouldn’t have these issues.  But it also helps to know that a 
> moderator can do this quickly in response to a general consensus or clear 
> harm being done, and that, for better or worse, people will respond angrily 
> to threads and contribute to their derailment.  I see no reason why anybody’s 
> freedoms should be impacted by such moderation, only the benefits that come 
> from a more efficient filter on the list mail than would be achievable 
> otherwise by individual members, especially when the only tools available to 
> them are on their devices.
> 
> So, as I said previously, I regard this as a matter of administration, not 
> ethics.  Having a moderator around is simply important for damage 
> control—nothing more.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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RE: audible books on the Mac

[Marcia Yale]

Actually, all you have to do is initiate the download from the Audible site and 
iTunes will automatically recognize it and prompt you for your user ID and 
password if it's the first book to be downloaded.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Faisal ali
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 9:58 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: audible books on the Mac

Hi all,
Recently, I’ve subscribed to audible and I wish to be able to read such books 
on my mac. As I understand, this can be done in iTunes but one needs to 
authorize one’s computer to be able to make this happen. Firstly, is there 
anyone on this list who read audible books on their macs? Secondly, how 
accessible was the authorization process? Based on what I read, one needs to 
download a book and once the book finishes downloading, the computer will 
prompt for a audible username and password to authorize the machine.
Thanks much.

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Re: suggestion [was: Re: the anti cleaning article]

[Scott Granados]

This is what I was suggesting but several folks got their panties in a bunch 
and feel that filtering is unacceptable.  They’d rather be spoon fed I suppose 
than work their own silverware.

Good point though

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
> 
> may I offer a suggestion? there are mail filters that can be applied from the 
> end user. Most mail clients can actually do this based on a number of 
> criteria. So, if someone uses a foul tongue and makes threats, just filter 
> their mail into the trash based on that offenders email address, or based on 
> a list of words that are offensive. THe offender will realize with alacrity 
> that his messages are being ignore and will go elsewhere.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> -eric
> 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
> 
>> Of course, as always, it helps to remember that if nobody replied to the 
>> abuser, we wouldn’t have these issues.  But it also helps to know that a 
>> moderator can do this quickly in response to a general consensus or clear 
>> harm being done, and that, for better or worse, people will respond angrily 
>> to threads and contribute to their derailment.  I see no reason why 
>> anybody’s freedoms should be impacted by such moderation, only the benefits 
>> that come from a more efficient filter on the list mail than would be 
>> achievable otherwise by individual members, especially when the only tools 
>> available to them are on their devices.
>> 
>> So, as I said previously, I regard this as a matter of administration, not 
>> ethics.  Having a moderator around is simply important for damage 
>> control—nothing more.
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> -- 
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> "MacVisionaries" group.
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> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[E.T.]

   Only the list owner can add new moderators.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 8/26/2015 9:29 AM, Mary Otten wrote:

For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have 
new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that 
is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree 
with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of 
several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a 
right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to 
write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant  for 
everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that 
list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who 
do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like 
unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out 
the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many 
months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're ou

t or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few 
people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take 
action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice 
with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list 
would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or her job.

Mary

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Scott,
There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
continue, said individual is removed from the community.

I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
elimenate all the side bickering?
On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)

You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.

Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.



On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
 wrote:


Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.

My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele
Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:



Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on
26/08/2015 at 05:29:

Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What
is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabriel.






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- --
Take care,
Ty
twitter: @sorressean
web:http://tysdomain.com
pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
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Re: suggestion [was: Re: the anti cleaning article]

[E.T.]

   A mail filter is not workable in all situations such as the one 
under heavy discussion. The reasons given are clear. Your comment was 
not necessary.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 8/26/2015 11:10 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

This is what I was suggesting but several folks got their panties in a bunch 
and feel that filtering is unacceptable.  They’d rather be spoon fed I suppose 
than work their own silverware.

Good point though


On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:

may I offer a suggestion? there are mail filters that can be applied from the 
end user. Most mail clients can actually do this based on a number of criteria. 
So, if someone uses a foul tongue and makes threats, just filter their mail 
into the trash based on that offenders email address, or based on a list of 
words that are offensive. THe offender will realize with alacrity that his 
messages are being ignore and will go elsewhere.

Just a thought.

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:


Of course, as always, it helps to remember that if nobody replied to the 
abuser, we wouldn’t have these issues.  But it also helps to know that a 
moderator can do this quickly in response to a general consensus or clear harm 
being done, and that, for better or worse, people will respond angrily to 
threads and contribute to their derailment.  I see no reason why anybody’s 
freedoms should be impacted by such moderation, only the benefits that come 
from a more efficient filter on the list mail than would be achievable 
otherwise by individual members, especially when the only tools available to 
them are on their devices.

So, as I said previously, I regard this as a matter of administration, not 
ethics.  Having a moderator around is simply important for damage 
control—nothing more.

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Re: suggestion [was: Re: the anti cleaning article]

[Scott Granados]

And see instead of wasting your time and mine by writing that you could have 
hit the delete key, taken less than 500 milliseconds and moved on.


> On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   A mail filter is not workable in all situations such as the one under heavy 
> discussion. The reasons given are clear. Your comment was not necessary.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 8/26/2015 11:10 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>> This is what I was suggesting but several folks got their panties in a bunch 
>> and feel that filtering is unacceptable.  They’d rather be spoon fed I 
>> suppose than work their own silverware.
>> 
>> Good point though
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> may I offer a suggestion? there are mail filters that can be applied from 
>>> the end user. Most mail clients can actually do this based on a number of 
>>> criteria. So, if someone uses a foul tongue and makes threats, just filter 
>>> their mail into the trash based on that offenders email address, or based 
>>> on a list of words that are offensive. THe offender will realize with 
>>> alacrity that his messages are being ignore and will go elsewhere.
>>> 
>>> Just a thought.
>>> 
>>> -eric
>>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
>>> 
 Of course, as always, it helps to remember that if nobody replied to the 
 abuser, we wouldn’t have these issues.  But it also helps to know that a 
 moderator can do this quickly in response to a general consensus or clear 
 harm being done, and that, for better or worse, people will respond 
 angrily to threads and contribute to their derailment.  I see no reason 
 why anybody’s freedoms should be impacted by such moderation, only the 
 benefits that come from a more efficient filter on the list mail than 
 would be achievable otherwise by individual members, especially when the 
 only tools available to them are on their devices.
 
 So, as I said previously, I regard this as a matter of administration, not 
 ethics.  Having a moderator around is simply important for damage 
 control—nothing more.
 
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Re: suggestion [was: Re: the anti cleaning article]

[E.T.]

   Some numbers for your edification. You have posted 12 times to my 3 
today. Who is wasting whose time? (smiles)


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 8/26/2015 11:32 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

And see instead of wasting your time and mine by writing that you could have 
hit the delete key, taken less than 500 milliseconds and moved on.



On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:

   A mail filter is not workable in all situations such as the one under heavy 
discussion. The reasons given are clear. Your comment was not necessary.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 8/26/2015 11:10 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

This is what I was suggesting but several folks got their panties in a bunch 
and feel that filtering is unacceptable.  They’d rather be spoon fed I suppose 
than work their own silverware.

Good point though


On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:

may I offer a suggestion? there are mail filters that can be applied from the 
end user. Most mail clients can actually do this based on a number of criteria. 
So, if someone uses a foul tongue and makes threats, just filter their mail 
into the trash based on that offenders email address, or based on a list of 
words that are offensive. THe offender will realize with alacrity that his 
messages are being ignore and will go elsewhere.

Just a thought.

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:


Of course, as always, it helps to remember that if nobody replied to the 
abuser, we wouldn’t have these issues.  But it also helps to know that a 
moderator can do this quickly in response to a general consensus or clear harm 
being done, and that, for better or worse, people will respond angrily to 
threads and contribute to their derailment.  I see no reason why anybody’s 
freedoms should be impacted by such moderation, only the benefits that come 
from a more efficient filter on the list mail than would be achievable 
otherwise by individual members, especially when the only tools available to 
them are on their devices.

So, as I said previously, I regard this as a matter of administration, not 
ethics.  Having a moderator around is simply important for damage 
control—nothing more.

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spawn

[Jim Gatteys]

are we spawning two antagonistic people on the list now?
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> This is what I was suggesting but several folks got their panties in a bunch 
> and feel that filtering is unacceptable.  They’d rather be spoon fed I 
> suppose than work their own silverware.
> 
> Good point though
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
>> 
>> may I offer a suggestion? there are mail filters that can be applied from 
>> the end user. Most mail clients can actually do this based on a number of 
>> criteria. So, if someone uses a foul tongue and makes threats, just filter 
>> their mail into the trash based on that offenders email address, or based on 
>> a list of words that are offensive. THe offender will realize with alacrity 
>> that his messages are being ignore and will go elsewhere.
>> 
>> Just a thought.
>> 
>> -eric
>> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
>> 
>>> Of course, as always, it helps to remember that if nobody replied to the 
>>> abuser, we wouldn’t have these issues.  But it also helps to know that a 
>>> moderator can do this quickly in response to a general consensus or clear 
>>> harm being done, and that, for better or worse, people will respond angrily 
>>> to threads and contribute to their derailment.  I see no reason why 
>>> anybody’s freedoms should be impacted by such moderation, only the benefits 
>>> that come from a more efficient filter on the list mail than would be 
>>> achievable otherwise by individual members, especially when the only tools 
>>> available to them are on their devices.
>>> 
>>> So, as I said previously, I regard this as a matter of administration, not 
>>> ethics.  Having a moderator around is simply important for damage 
>>> control—nothing more.
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>> 
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Re: suggestion [was: Re: the anti cleaning article]

[Jim Gatteys]

but aren't you doing the same by responding to his response?

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:32 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> And see instead of wasting your time and mine by writing that you could have 
> hit the delete key, taken less than 500 milliseconds and moved on.
> 
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  A mail filter is not workable in all situations such as the one under heavy 
>> discussion. The reasons given are clear. Your comment was not necessary.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>> On 8/26/2015 11:10 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>> This is what I was suggesting but several folks got their panties in a 
>>> bunch and feel that filtering is unacceptable.  They’d rather be spoon fed 
>>> I suppose than work their own silverware.
>>> 
>>> Good point though
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
 
 may I offer a suggestion? there are mail filters that can be applied from 
 the end user. Most mail clients can actually do this based on a number of 
 criteria. So, if someone uses a foul tongue and makes threats, just filter 
 their mail into the trash based on that offenders email address, or based 
 on a list of words that are offensive. THe offender will realize with 
 alacrity that his messages are being ignore and will go elsewhere.
 
 Just a thought.
 
 -eric
 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
 
> Of course, as always, it helps to remember that if nobody replied to the 
> abuser, we wouldn’t have these issues.  But it also helps to know that a 
> moderator can do this quickly in response to a general consensus or clear 
> harm being done, and that, for better or worse, people will respond 
> angrily to threads and contribute to their derailment.  I see no reason 
> why anybody’s freedoms should be impacted by such moderation, only the 
> benefits that come from a more efficient filter on the list mail than 
> would be achievable otherwise by individual members, especially when the 
> only tools available to them are on their devices.
> 
> So, as I said previously, I regard this as a matter of administration, 
> not ethics.  Having a moderator around is simply important for damage 
> control—nothing more.
> 
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>>> 
>> 
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Anne Robertson]

Hello Tyler,

Are you aware that there are several other lists for VoiceOver users? The one 
that comes to mind immediately is Mac-Access, which is a very quiet list and I 
know there are others.

I agree with Jonathan that using the name MacVisionaries is dishonest and you 
should find your own list name.

I’ve been on this list since very shortly after it was created in 2005, as have 
several others, and I have no intention of letting one person drive me away.

I run my own VoiceOver list, but it wouldn’t interest you as it’s in French, 
but we’re a very lively community and politely moderated by a very able person. 
But we too have had our problems over the seven years.

I hadn’t intended to say anything on this thread, but someone suggested that 
Cara was the original owner of this list, which is far from the truth. The 
original owner was Saqib Sheikh, but where he is now, I have no idea.

Well, good luck with your new list, but please rename it.

Cheers,

Anne

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Re: spawn

[Littlefield, Tyler]

Here is where I have the issues I do.
We just spent 5 messages talking about who should have hit the delete key 
first, who should’ve responded. I also want to make the point that I use 
multiple systems. Sometimes I check mail on my iPhone, sometimes I check on my 
mac or my windows system. I don’t really want to have to maintain filters for 
that many systems (IOS can’t even filter, AFAIK). Yes, people could technically 
filter, but some are unwilling to do so. Even if I filter “fuck” out of every 
message, I still have to deal with posts that don’t include that. If I filter 
on that specific person, I still have to read backlash of a community who is 
pretty tired of this individual. If I filter by thread, any thread tainted by 
this person is just gone, despite what I might get out of it. Combination of 
these results in other various issues. I believe that everyone has the right to 
speech and everyone has the right to do pretty much whatever they want, 
provided they can treat people with a bit of civility. When people are leaving 
a perfectly good community, regardless of whether or not they could’ve filtered 
or could’ve just hit delete, you have problems. People inherently are drawn to 
communities in which they feel like they fit. I’ve spent months with this list 
filtered server side entirely to the trash because there’s so much argument 
going back and forth. So while you might have the right to do whatever you 
want, that right only goes so far as rules and civility are concerned. I don’t 
wish to get into a discussion of a structured society vs anarchy here because 
it is wildly off topic, but by subscribing to this list, you are basically 
saying “Hey, I agree to follow these rules, if not I’ll be moderated.” This 
falls down at the latter point, where moderation does not take place.

So what this really boils down to is filters are not really the issue here, nor 
is calling people out for their unwillingness, or lack of knowledge, or even 
not having the ability to filter altogether. This comes down to creating a good 
community in which people can continue to feel welcome and learn.

Respectfully, you’ve mentioned that there is a reason between chocolate and 
vanilla, but you seem unwilling to accept this, choosing instead to suggest 
that people who want a bit more structure are inadequate and unwilling to take 
care of themselves. Considering that this includes yours truly, I’m a bit 
bothered by this idea as it seems to contradict the perfectly great idea that 
people have differences and it doesn’t matter. I have limited time. I’ve spent 
so much time talking about this today when I could be doing other things. Next 
semester I’ll be taking 20 credits. I want to remain part of this community 
without tweaking filters and deleting endless trash and I honestly believe that 
I along with anyone else have that right. Why deal with drama when I could be 
doing more important things like drinking?

Thanks, 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:45 PM, Jim Gatteys  wrote:
> 
> are we spawning two antagonistic people on the list now?
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> This is what I was suggesting but several folks got their panties in a bunch 
>> and feel that filtering is unacceptable.  They’d rather be spoon fed I 
>> suppose than work their own silverware.
>> 
>> Good point though
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> may I offer a suggestion? there are mail filters that can be applied from 
>>> the end user. Most mail clients can actually do this based on a number of 
>>> criteria. So, if someone uses a foul tongue and makes threats, just filter 
>>> their mail into the trash based on that offenders email address, or based 
>>> on a list of words that are offensive. THe offender will realize with 
>>> alacrity that his messages are being ignore and will go elsewhere.
>>> 
>>> Just a thought.
>>> 
>>> -eric
>>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
>>> 
 Of course, as always, it helps to remember that if nobody replied to the 
 abuser, we wouldn’t have these issues.  But it also helps to know that a 
 moderator can do this quickly in response to a general consensus or clear 
 harm being done, and that, for better or worse, people will respond 
 angrily to threads and contribute to their derailment.  I see no reason 
 why anybody’s freedoms should be impacted by such moderation, only the 
 benefits that come from a more efficient filter on the list mail than 
 would be achievable otherwise by individual members, especially when the 
 only tools available to them are on their devices.
 
 So, as I said previously, I regard this as a matter of administration, not 
 ethics.  Having a moderator around is simply important for damage 
 control—nothing more.
 
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

Last he checked in with me, Saqib was still working at Microsoft.  I too was 
around at the very beginning, but I’ve been on and off since.  Of course, many 
of you will know that Cara very graciously took up the reins and has made her 
presence felt since that time, until she slipped into the shadows.  I also had 
some amount of contact with Cara outside this list for her excellent work on 
AGRIP, but real life commitments meant we weren’t keeping in touch.  You’ll 
probably also know that she was featuring on many Maccessibility roundtable 
discussions, and that she was co-host or moderator for other lists including 
audyssey.

I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve been very glad for and also very annoyed 
by the behaviour of the list and moderation over that time, but since I’m 
ultimately back here, I have to suppose that it’s worked out in the end.  I do 
hope whatever comes of all this doesn’t destroy this excellent resource.  Even 
if I don’t stick around, it’s been a blast. :)

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So is this list going to die or not?

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list should be or 
not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to die?

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Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Littlefield, Tyler]

This list will continue. I have no control or wish to kill it off. I’m just 
providing a place for people to go if they’re a bit tired, as I am of 
deleting/filtering/ignoring/etc. Loosely moderated, but enough so that we can 
control whether or not people get irritated enough with the daily happenings to 
leave in droves, as has happened here.
Thanks,
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 3:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list should be 
> or not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to die?
> 
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Re: the anti cleaning article

['Kevin Cussick' via MacVisionaries]

Hi,   agreed just get rid of the person that is causing the problem that is 
what I would have done if it was on my list.
> On 26 Aug 2015, at 16:57, Jim Gatteys  wrote:
> 
> Why should everybody have to create a rule to filter out one objectionable 
> person when a moderator could handle that quickly and efficiently.
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Scott Granados  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Just add the objectionable person to a rule and move it automatically to the 
>> trash.
>> 
>> Simple, problem solved and no moderation.
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Yuma Decaux  wrote:
>>> 
>>> ET is right, I am afraid to say this.
>>> 
>>> I cannot count the number of times this person has fired out, insulted, 
>>> then asked pardon, justifying some personal issues which do not belong to 
>>> any mailing list, then repeat the process almost within the hour. If he is 
>>> so defensive and threatening towards so many people, this is because these 
>>> responders also feel offended by his words. There is a democratic process 
>>> going on, a natural finger pointing of someone who just abuses the fact 
>>> that there are no moderators in this list. Some of us try to resolve this 
>>> one way or the other but nothing will be done if no one takes action, gas 
>>> bagging and cackering instead in the drainpipe of opinionated expression. 
>>> The latter is useless. Action can solve everything.
>>> 
>>> Take care 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On 27/08/2015, at 12:43 AM, E.T.  wrote:
 
 There are as many opinions here as there are members of this group. This 
 issue is generating a lot of traffic that is not helpful to the grpup. We 
 have one person who cannot control himself. Banning him will break the 
 fever and let the group move on.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 Many believe that we have been visited
 in the past. What if it were true?
 
 On 8/26/2015 7:31 AM, Yuma Decaux wrote:
> A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is 
> moderated, and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously 
> abusing others verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is to 
> make the offensive person reflect on themselves. Banning them would 
> result in upsets and possible worse attitudes in other lists.
> 
> 
>> On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
>> acceptable use over time.
>> 
>> Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only 
>> exception to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious 
>> lack of moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore 
>> list from Google.  Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so 
>> forth is just disruptive.  Pending that though I couldn’t see banning 
>> someone.
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. 
>>> Removing that person permanently would return the list to a relatively 
>>> peaceful and more focused environment.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
>>> On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
 Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, 
 totally noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back 
 toward the noisy end.  I too am a great fan of the love-it-or-leave-it 
 style of discussion, but there’s something to be said for having a 
 person—possibly just one person—with a hand near to the levers that 
 restore calm and order in times of imminent crisis.  This goes as well 
 for practically any networked service, not just email lists.
 
>>> 
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RE: the anti cleaning article

[george b]

Why don't you all read your mail...there is no mod for this list at this time 
or I should say the person has not been modding for a long long time



-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 13:11
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: the anti cleaning article

Hi,   agreed just get rid of the person that is causing the problem that is 
what I would have done if it was on my list.
> On 26 Aug 2015, at 16:57, Jim Gatteys  wrote:
> 
> Why should everybody have to create a rule to filter out one objectionable 
> person when a moderator could handle that quickly and efficiently.
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Scott Granados  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Just add the objectionable person to a rule and move it automatically to the 
>> trash.
>> 
>> Simple, problem solved and no moderation.
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Yuma Decaux  wrote:
>>> 
>>> ET is right, I am afraid to say this.
>>> 
>>> I cannot count the number of times this person has fired out, insulted, 
>>> then asked pardon, justifying some personal issues which do not belong to 
>>> any mailing list, then repeat the process almost within the hour. If he is 
>>> so defensive and threatening towards so many people, this is because these 
>>> responders also feel offended by his words. There is a democratic process 
>>> going on, a natural finger pointing of someone who just abuses the fact 
>>> that there are no moderators in this list. Some of us try to resolve this 
>>> one way or the other but nothing will be done if no one takes action, gas 
>>> bagging and cackering instead in the drainpipe of opinionated expression. 
>>> The latter is useless. Action can solve everything.
>>> 
>>> Take care 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On 27/08/2015, at 12:43 AM, E.T.  wrote:
 
 There are as many opinions here as there are members of this group. This 
 issue is generating a lot of traffic that is not helpful to the grpup. We 
 have one person who cannot control himself. Banning him will break the 
 fever and let the group move on.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 Many believe that we have been visited
 in the past. What if it were true?
 
 On 8/26/2015 7:31 AM, Yuma Decaux wrote:
> A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is 
> moderated, and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously 
> abusing others verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is to 
> make the offensive person reflect on themselves. Banning them would 
> result in upsets and possible worse attitudes in other lists.
> 
> 
>> On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
>> acceptable use over time.
>> 
>> Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only 
>> exception to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious 
>> lack of moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore 
>> list from Google.  Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so 
>> forth is just disruptive.  Pending that though I couldn’t see banning 
>> someone.
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. 
>>> Removing that person permanently would return the list to a relatively 
>>> peaceful and more focused environment.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
>>> On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
 Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, 
 totally noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back 
 toward the noisy end.  I too am a great fan of the love-it-or-leave-it 
 style of discussion, but there’s something to be said for having a 
 person—possibly just one person—with a hand near to the levers that 
 restore calm and order in times of imminent crisis.  This goes as well 
 for practically any networked service, not just email lists.
 
>>> 
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>> 
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Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Eric Oyen]

probably not. However, it doesn't hurt to have a backup.

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:

> Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list should be 
> or not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to die?
> 
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Re: suggestion [was: Re: the anti cleaning article]

[Eric Oyen]

yep. I use apple mail here and it has a very large selection of filters I can 
use. I can even filter based on any of the hidden header information (those 
pesky X-lines). It has allowed me to dump more spam than even gmail could (and 
do it properly).

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:10 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

> This is what I was suggesting but several folks got their panties in a bunch 
> and feel that filtering is unacceptable.  They’d rather be spoon fed I 
> suppose than work their own silverware.
> 
> Good point though
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
>> 
>> may I offer a suggestion? there are mail filters that can be applied from 
>> the end user. Most mail clients can actually do this based on a number of 
>> criteria. So, if someone uses a foul tongue and makes threats, just filter 
>> their mail into the trash based on that offenders email address, or based on 
>> a list of words that are offensive. THe offender will realize with alacrity 
>> that his messages are being ignore and will go elsewhere.
>> 
>> Just a thought.
>> 
>> -eric
>> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
>> 
>>> Of course, as always, it helps to remember that if nobody replied to the 
>>> abuser, we wouldn’t have these issues.  But it also helps to know that a 
>>> moderator can do this quickly in response to a general consensus or clear 
>>> harm being done, and that, for better or worse, people will respond angrily 
>>> to threads and contribute to their derailment.  I see no reason why 
>>> anybody’s freedoms should be impacted by such moderation, only the benefits 
>>> that come from a more efficient filter on the list mail than would be 
>>> achievable otherwise by individual members, especially when the only tools 
>>> available to them are on their devices.
>>> 
>>> So, as I said previously, I regard this as a matter of administration, not 
>>> ethics.  Having a moderator around is simply important for damage 
>>> control—nothing more.
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
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> 
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Re: spawn

[Phil Halton]

Jim, I am noticing the same phenomena.
I'm calling it Spawn of Chris!

Sent from my IPhone


> On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:45 PM, Jim Gatteys  wrote:
> 
> are we spawning two antagonistic people on the list now?
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> This is what I was suggesting but several folks got their panties in a bunch 
>> and feel that filtering is unacceptable.  They’d rather be spoon fed I 
>> suppose than work their own silverware.
>> 
>> Good point though
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> may I offer a suggestion? there are mail filters that can be applied from 
>>> the end user. Most mail clients can actually do this based on a number of 
>>> criteria. So, if someone uses a foul tongue and makes threats, just filter 
>>> their mail into the trash based on that offenders email address, or based 
>>> on a list of words that are offensive. THe offender will realize with 
>>> alacrity that his messages are being ignore and will go elsewhere.
>>> 
>>> Just a thought.
>>> 
>>> -eric
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
 
 Of course, as always, it helps to remember that if nobody replied to the 
 abuser, we wouldn’t have these issues.  But it also helps to know that a 
 moderator can do this quickly in response to a general consensus or clear 
 harm being done, and that, for better or worse, people will respond 
 angrily to threads and contribute to their derailment.  I see no reason 
 why anybody’s freedoms should be impacted by such moderation, only the 
 benefits that come from a more efficient filter on the list mail than 
 would be achievable otherwise by individual members, especially when the 
 only tools available to them are on their devices.
 
 So, as I said previously, I regard this as a matter of administration, not 
 ethics.  Having a moderator around is simply important for damage 
 control—nothing more.
 
 -- 
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>> 
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> 
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Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Karen Lewellen]

Actually, i fail to understand how making anew list will impact  anything 
really.
As I understand it, so much that is the issue is based on 
behavior...and humans will show up wherever the list goes smiles.

Kare


On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:


probably not. However, it doesn't hurt to have a backup.

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:


Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list should be or 
not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to die?

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Re: destructive people and their right to freedom of speech

[Yuma Decaux]

See what happens and keep this status quo going on while a majority is agreeing 
on several points? So we’re just discussing uselessly is this correct?

> On 27/08/2015, at 2:41 AM, Jim Gatteys  wrote:
> 
> I guess we'll just have to see what happens.
> I personally think it is counter productive to let one person make the entire 
> list not a good place for its members.  But with all this discussion we are 
> giving him more attention which is probably what he wants in the first place.
> Jim
> 
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> That’s an easy one, because no one person can and should speak for anyone 
>> else.
>> 
>> We’ve already discussed on this thread what happens when a moderator goes 
>> all power hungry.  I remember when it happened on an iteration of this list 
>> probably 4 years back now and most people left the group because the 
>> moderator in this case was on crack.
>> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:57 AM, Jim Gatteys  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Why should everybody have to create a rule to filter out one objectionable 
>>> person when a moderator could handle that quickly and efficiently.
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 Just add the objectionable person to a rule and move it automatically to 
 the trash.
 
 Simple, problem solved and no moderation.
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Yuma Decaux  wrote:
> 
> ET is right, I am afraid to say this.
> 
> I cannot count the number of times this person has fired out, insulted, 
> then asked pardon, justifying some personal issues which do not belong to 
> any mailing list, then repeat the process almost within the hour. If he 
> is so defensive and threatening towards so many people, this is because 
> these responders also feel offended by his words. There is a democratic 
> process going on, a natural finger pointing of someone who just abuses 
> the fact that there are no moderators in this list. Some of us try to 
> resolve this one way or the other but nothing will be done if no one 
> takes action, gas bagging and cackering instead in the drainpipe of 
> opinionated expression. The latter is useless. Action can solve 
> everything.
> 
> Take care 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 27/08/2015, at 12:43 AM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> There are as many opinions here as there are members of this group. This 
>> issue is generating a lot of traffic that is not helpful to the grpup. 
>> We have one person who cannot control himself. Banning him will break 
>> the fever and let the group move on.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>> On 8/26/2015 7:31 AM, Yuma Decaux wrote:
>>> A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is 
>>> moderated, and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously 
>>> abusing others verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is 
>>> to make the offensive person reflect on themselves. Banning them would 
>>> result in upsets and possible worse attitudes in other lists.
>>> 
>>> 
 On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  
 wrote:
 
 Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
 acceptable use over time.
 
 Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only 
 exception to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been 
 serious lack of moderation and spam problems on other lists like the 
 eyesore list from Google.  Automated programs dumping recruiting adds 
 and so forth is just disruptive.  Pending that though I couldn’t see 
 banning someone.
 
> On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. 
> Removing that person permanently would return the list to a 
> relatively peaceful and more focused environment.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
>> Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, 
>> totally noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back 
>> toward the noisy end.  I too am a great fan of the 
>> love-it-or-leave-it style of discussion, but there’s something to be 
>> said for having a person—possibly just one person—with a hand near 
>> to the levers that restore calm and order in times of imminent 
>> crisis.  This goes as well for practically any networked service, 
>> not just email lists.
>

Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Eric Oyen]

meh. true. However, a slightly more moderated approach will keep the bad apples 
(bad joke) from spoiling the rest. :)

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> Actually, i fail to understand how making anew list will impact  anything 
> really.
> As I understand it, so much that is the issue is based on behavior...and 
> humans will show up wherever the list goes smiles.
> Kare
> 
> 
> On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:
> 
>> probably not. However, it doesn't hurt to have a backup.
>> 
>> -eric
>> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>> 
>>> Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list should 
>>> be or not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to die?
>>> 
>>> --
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>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
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>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
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>> 
>> 

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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Yuma Decaux]

Scott,

What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s say 
the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is detrimental. 
It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of 
driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and off list. Your words 
are also getting more radical, mentioning churches etc. Don’t you think its 
time to consider that maybe something does need to be done?


> On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone 
> else instead of deal with it themselves.
> 
> If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t.  Nobody 
> forces you to read anything.
> 
> These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone 
> said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value 
> or another.
>   Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view 
> is the right view so all others be damned.
> 
> wow
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten > > wrote:
>> 
>> For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have 
>> new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know 
>> that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't 
>> agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a 
>> list of several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did 
>> not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people 
>> be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make 
>> itunpleasant  for everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who 
>> signed up for that list have a right to expect that the rules will be 
>> followed and that those who do not follow them consistently will be taken 
>> off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to 
>> check one out, go check out the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, 
>> which was admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for 
>> one strike and you're out or heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes 
>> clear overtime that a few people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, 
>> then a moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. 
>> So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in 
>> the best of all worlds, this list would remain but would have an active 
>> moderator who did his or her job.
>> Mary
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>> 
>>> Hello Scott,
>>> There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
>>> who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
>>> someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
>>> frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
>>> continue, said individual is removed from the community.
>>> 
>>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
>>> it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
>>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
>>> etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
>>> am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
>>> elimenate all the side bickering?
>>> On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
 I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
 policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
 or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
 
 You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the tightening of
 the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
 might but it’s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
 same value when there’s already a critical mass of people here.
 
 Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
 say before he passed away “that’s why they make chocolate and
 vanilla”  something for the different viewpoints.
 
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
> mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com>> wrote:
> 
 Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.
 
 My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
 done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
 of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
 can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele
 Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on
>>> 26/08/2015 at 05:29:
>>> 
>>> Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What
>>> is 

Re: destructive people and their right to freedom of speech

[Karen Lewellen]

Again I must agree.
there is a Maxim in legal studies, your rights end where my nose begins. 
One  meaning of this is that I and only i in the end decide if something is 
offensive...largely because the other party is not going to agree 
regardless.
so, the greater question is why are you giving one person so much power 
over you that you have to run away to another list?
To be honest, I  am on this list, and I am totally lost as to who has 
started another  challenge...because I just do not  read, or take 
personally messages that are not true for me.

Karen


On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Yuma Decaux wrote:


See what happens and keep this status quo going on while a majority is agreeing 
on several points? So we’re just discussing uselessly is this correct?


On 27/08/2015, at 2:41 AM, Jim Gatteys  wrote:

I guess we'll just have to see what happens.
I personally think it is counter productive to let one person make the entire 
list not a good place for its members.  But with all this discussion we are 
giving him more attention which is probably what he wants in the first place.
Jim



On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

That’s an easy one, because no one person can and should speak for anyone else.

We’ve already discussed on this thread what happens when a moderator goes all 
power hungry.  I remember when it happened on an iteration of this list 
probably 4 years back now and most people left the group because the moderator 
in this case was on crack.

On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:57 AM, Jim Gatteys  wrote:


Why should everybody have to create a rule to filter out one objectionable 
person when a moderator could handle that quickly and efficiently.


On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

Just add the objectionable person to a rule and move it automatically to the 
trash.

Simple, problem solved and no moderation.


On Aug 26, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Yuma Decaux  wrote:

ET is right, I am afraid to say this.

I cannot count the number of times this person has fired out, insulted, then 
asked pardon, justifying some personal issues which do not belong to any 
mailing list, then repeat the process almost within the hour. If he is so 
defensive and threatening towards so many people, this is because these 
responders also feel offended by his words. There is a democratic process going 
on, a natural finger pointing of someone who just abuses the fact that there 
are no moderators in this list. Some of us try to resolve this one way or the 
other but nothing will be done if no one takes action, gas bagging and 
cackering instead in the drainpipe of opinionated expression. The latter is 
useless. Action can solve everything.

Take care




On 27/08/2015, at 12:43 AM, E.T.  wrote:

There are as many opinions here as there are members of this group. This issue 
is generating a lot of traffic that is not helpful to the grpup. We have one 
person who cannot control himself. Banning him will break the fever and let the 
group move on.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 8/26/2015 7:31 AM, Yuma Decaux wrote:

A very simple solution is for everyone to be aware that the list is moderated, 
and throw in a public warning to whoever is continuously abusing others 
verbally, not necessarily ban the person. The point is to make the offensive 
person reflect on themselves. Banning them would result in upsets and possible 
worse attitudes in other lists.



On 26/08/2015, at 10:39 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:

Yes until you’ve eventually removed everyone from deviating from your 
acceptable use over time.

Banning someone from any mailing list is just weak sauce.  The only exception 
to that at least for me is spammers.  There have been serious lack of 
moderation and spam problems on other lists like the eyesore list from Google.  
Automated programs dumping recruiting adds and so forth is just disruptive.  
Pending that though I couldn’t see banning someone.


On Aug 25, 2015, at 3:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:

It only takes one person to throw a list like this into utter chaos. Removing 
that person permanently would return the list to a relatively peaceful and more 
focused environment.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 8/25/2015 11:49 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:

Yes indeed, this list has gone from, at various stages of its life, totally 
noisy and idiotic, to totally over-regulated, veering back toward the noisy 
end.  I too am a great fan of the love-it-or-leave-it style of discussion, but 
there’s something to be said for having a person—possibly just one person—with 
a hand near to the levers that restore calm and order in times of imminent 
crisis.  This goes as well for practically any networked service, not just 
email lists.



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Re: spawn

[Yuma Decaux]

Usually when someone starts to use jittery words, it is mainly because they 
know their argument is on fragile grounds. Simply because there is a consensus 
and a rationale which is repeated through various members boiling down to the 
same thing. Filters and rules are not the solution, and just get on with it, 
but some dogs bite and don’t let it off. Typical response psychology.


> On 27/08/2015, at 6:46 AM, Phil Halton  wrote:
> 
> Jim, I am noticing the same phenomena.
> I'm calling it Spawn of Chris!
> 
> Sent from my IPhone
> 
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:45 PM, Jim Gatteys  wrote:
>> 
>> are we spawning two antagonistic people on the list now?
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is what I was suggesting but several folks got their panties in a 
>>> bunch and feel that filtering is unacceptable.  They’d rather be spoon fed 
>>> I suppose than work their own silverware.
>>> 
>>> Good point though
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
 
 may I offer a suggestion? there are mail filters that can be applied from 
 the end user. Most mail clients can actually do this based on a number of 
 criteria. So, if someone uses a foul tongue and makes threats, just filter 
 their mail into the trash based on that offenders email address, or based 
 on a list of words that are offensive. THe offender will realize with 
 alacrity that his messages are being ignore and will go elsewhere.
 
 Just a thought.
 
 -eric
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu wrote:
> 
> Of course, as always, it helps to remember that if nobody replied to the 
> abuser, we wouldn’t have these issues.  But it also helps to know that a 
> moderator can do this quickly in response to a general consensus or clear 
> harm being done, and that, for better or worse, people will respond 
> angrily to threads and contribute to their derailment.  I see no reason 
> why anybody’s freedoms should be impacted by such moderation, only the 
> benefits that come from a more efficient filter on the list mail than 
> would be achievable otherwise by individual members, especially when the 
> only tools available to them are on their devices.
> 
> So, as I said previously, I regard this as a matter of administration, 
> not ethics.  Having a moderator around is simply important for damage 
> control—nothing more.
> 
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Just my thoughts.

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

So let's say who ever offends subscribes to the new list and says something out 
of sorts then there is a spat on that new list before a mod steps in.  You see 
in my thinking, the damage is already been done as harsh words are said and 
therefore in my thinking the same problem occurs.  I know a mod can band them 
straight away but we being human beings don't always forget the bad things as 
it's in human nature to remember harsh words.

Personally I have had people writing to me saying that they no longer wish to 
communicate with me who belong to this list.  Whilst I don't like it because I 
prefer to try and talk issues through, I have had to learn to accept that 
people will not speak to me and have had to continue as if nothing has 
happened.  That for me has been very hard to deal with but I have had to do so. 
 So for me, it doesn't matter what a person may say as long as we all respect 
each other.  One of the reasons why I don't contribute so much to this list 
because people can drop a friend ship after knowing you for more than four 
years.  A painful lesson.

Kawal.

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Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Karen Lewellen]

I did not realize the list was spoiled smiles.
Is this not a decision by  you, choosing to think the list is  spoiled, , 
regardless of the bad..ahem apple?
Such can be ignored can it not?  creating a new list just  rewards their 
behavior... does it not?



On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:


meh. true. However, a slightly more moderated approach will keep the bad apples 
(bad joke) from spoiling the rest. :)

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:


Actually, i fail to understand how making anew list will impact  anything 
really.
As I understand it, so much that is the issue is based on behavior...and humans 
will show up wherever the list goes smiles.
Kare


On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:


probably not. However, it doesn't hurt to have a backup.

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:


Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list should be or 
not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to die?

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Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Devin Prater]

Well, if an island is infested with dangerous creatures, and no one can even 
get into the island, would it not be best to destroy the old and find a new one?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:23 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
> 
> I did not realize the list was spoiled smiles.
> Is this not a decision by  you, choosing to think the list is  spoiled, , 
> regardless of the bad..ahem apple?
> Such can be ignored can it not?  creating a new list just  rewards their 
> behavior... does it not?
> 
> 
>> On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:
>> 
>> meh. true. However, a slightly more moderated approach will keep the bad 
>> apples (bad joke) from spoiling the rest. :)
>> 
>> -eric
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>> 
>>> Actually, i fail to understand how making anew list will impact  anything 
>>> really.
>>> As I understand it, so much that is the issue is based on behavior...and 
>>> humans will show up wherever the list goes smiles.
>>> Kare
>>> 
>>> 
 On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:
 
 probably not. However, it doesn't hurt to have a backup.
 
 -eric
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
> 
> Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list should 
> be or not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to die?
> 
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Call to the List Owner to Appoint a New Moderator

[CJ Daniel]

To whom it may concern,

I have been a member of this list for several years now.  I read the traffic on 
a daily basis.  I try to only post when I feel that I can competently address 
another list member’s query about the Mac & VoiceOver.  However, I will confess 
that, as of late, I have been drawn into some of the conflict with the list’s 
number one problem child.  While I’m not proud of my interactions with him, I 
do feel that some of his provocations are quite extreme & do necessitate some 
sort of response.  

Which brings me to my point, to whit.  If moderating this list has become 
burdensome to the people currently engaged in that office, shouldn’t other 
willing list members be appointed to that task?  I sense from the messages 
posted on the list that the majority of our members are kind & considerate 
people, who only want to gather information & share their knowledge about the 
use of VoiceOver on the Mac.  The majority of us do not wish to engage in 
controversy, the use of foul language, or vile attacks on others.  While 
“freedom of speech” is certainly a concept I support, I do not, for one minute, 
believe that some of the miss-conduct seen recently on this list constitute 
that noble ideal.

All of that being said, I urge each of the concerned, right-thinking, members 
of this list to join with me in requesting the owner of this list to appoint 
new & active moderators.  I do not believe in calling for action from others.  
I believe in civil society & each person participating to the fullest in that 
concept.  I offer my services as a moderator & would be glad to discuss my 
qualifications for such a post off list with any owner or current moderator of 
this list.  I urge others to do the same.  It is possible to reclaim the good 
standing of this list & move forward to continue a great tradition of the civil 
exchange of knowledge & mutual assistance.

Sincerely,

CJ Daniel


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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Karen Lewellen]

well, if this party has threatened or used hate speech, you report  them 
to the  authorities.  One does not well build a new house instead.

..not that you were asking me of course smiles.
Why not report their conduct to the Internet provider?


On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Yuma Decaux wrote:


Scott,

What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let???s 
say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is 
detrimental. It???s been months like this and in recent dates taking a 
culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on 
and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning churches 
etc. Don???t you think its time to consider that maybe something does need to 
be done?



On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else 
instead of deal with it themselves.

If you don???t want to invite someone in to your home then don???t.  Nobody 
forces you to read anything.

These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone 
said something they don???t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value 
or another.
Oh I don???t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my 
view is the right view so all others be damned.

wow




On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote:

For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have 
new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that 
is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree 
with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of 
several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a 
right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to 
write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant  for 
everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that 
list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who 
do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like 
unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out 
the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many 
months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or 
heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people 
simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, 
or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the 
chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain 
but would have an active moderator who did his or her job.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com>> wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Scott,
There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
continue, said individual is removed from the community.

I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
elimenate all the side bickering?
On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

I???m not sure moderation = good community.  That???s like saying
policing = a good community and I???d dare say the folks of Ferguson
or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)

You bring up a good point I???m just wondering is the tightening of
the rules going to necessarily translate in to better content.  It
might but it???s hard to get enough people to switch and keep the
same value when there???s already a critical mass of people here.

Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts used to
say before he passed away ???that???s why they make chocolate and
vanilla???  something for the different viewpoints.



On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com>> wrote:


Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this list.

My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is being
done to stop it. As a result of the spam/cursing/general throwing
of fits, I created a new list where rules can be enforced and we
can have a good community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele
Battaglia' via MacVisionaries wrote:



Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on
26/08/2015 at 05:29:

Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new list? What
is going to happen to this one? Thanks. Gabrie

Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Eric Oyen]

hehe. yeah, still we need to be on good behavior. Like they say in radio: you 
never know whose listening. Same here, you never know who is reading this.

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:23 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

> I did not realize the list was spoiled smiles.
> Is this not a decision by  you, choosing to think the list is  spoiled, , 
> regardless of the bad..ahem apple?
> Such can be ignored can it not?  creating a new list just  rewards their 
> behavior... does it not?
> 
> 
> On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:
> 
>> meh. true. However, a slightly more moderated approach will keep the bad 
>> apples (bad joke) from spoiling the rest. :)
>> 
>> -eric
>> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> 
>>> Actually, i fail to understand how making anew list will impact  anything 
>>> really.
>>> As I understand it, so much that is the issue is based on behavior...and 
>>> humans will show up wherever the list goes smiles.
>>> Kare
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:
>>> 
 probably not. However, it doesn't hurt to have a backup.
 
 -eric
 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
 
> Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list should 
> be or not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to die?
> 
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Re: Call to the List Owner to Appoint a New Moderator

[Ray Foret Jr]

I am inclined to concurr completely with CJ on this.  How well I fondly 
remember my first days with my Mac and how helpful this list had been at the 
time in pulling me through what I felt were fairly tricky spots at the time.  I 
hate to see what is happening now to the list and, I should like to indicate, 
as a co-moderator of another list which is also on Google groups, that the 
google interfase (at least for the Mac) has improved greatly.  PLEASE, PLEASE, 
let us rescue what remains before it dies a most horrifick and painful death!!!


Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray

Still a happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone 6+ and Apple TV user!

Sent from my Mac,
the only computer with full accessibility for the blind built-in

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:25 PM, CJ Daniel  wrote:
> 
> To whom it may concern,
> 
> I have been a member of this list for several years now.  I read the traffic 
> on a daily basis.  I try to only post when I feel that I can competently 
> address another list member’s query about the Mac & VoiceOver.  However, I 
> will confess that, as of late, I have been drawn into some of the conflict 
> with the list’s number one problem child.  While I’m not proud of my 
> interactions with him, I do feel that some of his provocations are quite 
> extreme & do necessitate some sort of response.  
> 
> Which brings me to my point, to whit.  If moderating this list has become 
> burdensome to the people currently engaged in that office, shouldn’t other 
> willing list members be appointed to that task?  I sense from the messages 
> posted on the list that the majority of our members are kind & considerate 
> people, who only want to gather information & share their knowledge about the 
> use of VoiceOver on the Mac.  The majority of us do not wish to engage in 
> controversy, the use of foul language, or vile attacks on others.  While 
> “freedom of speech” is certainly a concept I support, I do not, for one 
> minute, believe that some of the miss-conduct seen recently on this list 
> constitute that noble ideal.
> 
> All of that being said, I urge each of the concerned, right-thinking, members 
> of this list to join with me in requesting the owner of this list to appoint 
> new & active moderators.  I do not believe in calling for action from others. 
>  I believe in civil society & each person participating to the fullest in 
> that concept.  I offer my services as a moderator & would be glad to discuss 
> my qualifications for such a post off list with any owner or current 
> moderator of this list.  I urge others to do the same.  It is possible to 
> reclaim the good standing of this list & move forward to continue a great 
> tradition of the civil exchange of knowledge & mutual assistance.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> CJ Daniel
> 
> 
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Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Karen Lewellen]

Not necessarily.
First you must decide if there is a real danger, or a defined, assumed 
one.

Perhaps the creatures or just hungry...for attention.
So it may be in the field of infinite possibilities to clear the air. 
report the creatures  to the equal of terminix, Poison their food, all while 
deciding that you personally are in no danger, no real danger that is. 
One might even bomb from the air that  impacts the creatures leaving 
the island in place.



On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Devin Prater wrote:


Well, if an island is infested with dangerous creatures, and no one can even 
get into the island, would it not be best to destroy the old and find a new one?

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:23 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

I did not realize the list was spoiled smiles.
Is this not a decision by  you, choosing to think the list is  spoiled, , 
regardless of the bad..ahem apple?
Such can be ignored can it not?  creating a new list just  rewards their 
behavior... does it not?



On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:

meh. true. However, a slightly more moderated approach will keep the bad apples 
(bad joke) from spoiling the rest. :)

-eric


On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

Actually, i fail to understand how making anew list will impact  anything 
really.
As I understand it, so much that is the issue is based on behavior...and humans 
will show up wherever the list goes smiles.
Kare



On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:

probably not. However, it doesn't hurt to have a backup.

-eric


On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:

Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list should be or 
not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to die?

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Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Karen Lewellen]

smiles...but of course.
Good and behavior are relatives to the individual however...no?


On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:


hehe. yeah, still we need to be on good behavior. Like they say in radio: you 
never know whose listening. Same here, you never know who is reading this.

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:23 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:


I did not realize the list was spoiled smiles.
Is this not a decision by  you, choosing to think the list is  spoiled, , 
regardless of the bad..ahem apple?
Such can be ignored can it not?  creating a new list just  rewards their 
behavior... does it not?


On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:


meh. true. However, a slightly more moderated approach will keep the bad apples 
(bad joke) from spoiling the rest. :)

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:


Actually, i fail to understand how making anew list will impact  anything 
really.
As I understand it, so much that is the issue is based on behavior...and humans 
will show up wherever the list goes smiles.
Kare


On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:


probably not. However, it doesn't hurt to have a backup.

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:


Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list should be or 
not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to die?

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Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[tim]

I have ben on many blind lists of different types of content. ever time
 Chris gets on a list this happens. They only way to stop him is to remove him 
and any new creations he signs up with. Maybe in time he will get his act 
together, but he won’t learn until he is shoved out into the cold. 
Now Chris you don’t need to respond, because I already delete your mail on all 
lists your on, so don’t wast the time!
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Devin Prater  wrote:
> 
> Well, if an island is infested with dangerous creatures, and no one can even 
> get into the island, would it not be best to destroy the old and find a new 
> one?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:23 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
>> 
>> I did not realize the list was spoiled smiles.
>> Is this not a decision by  you, choosing to think the list is  spoiled, , 
>> regardless of the bad..ahem apple?
>> Such can be ignored can it not?  creating a new list just  rewards their 
>> behavior... does it not?
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:
>>> 
>>> meh. true. However, a slightly more moderated approach will keep the bad 
>>> apples (bad joke) from spoiling the rest. :)
>>> 
>>> -eric
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
 
 Actually, i fail to understand how making anew list will impact  anything 
 really.
 As I understand it, so much that is the issue is based on behavior...and 
 humans will show up wherever the list goes smiles.
 Kare
 
 
> On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:
> 
> probably not. However, it doesn't hurt to have a backup.
> 
> -eric
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>> 
>> Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list 
>> should be or not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to 
>> die?
>> 
>> --
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>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
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>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> 
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> 
>>> 
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>>> 
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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Rich Ring]

I am aware of who the individual who seems to like to get peoples feelings 
stirred up is, and since I know where my delete key is, I have no problem with 
this individual. This individual comes and goes, and unless excluded, he’ll be 
back! However, my delete key is a constant, not a variable, although, I read 
some of his messages because I kind of enjoy the absurd! This is, overall, an 
extremely helpful list, and the majority of its contributors are not only 
helpful, but respectful. All of us do not share the same level of knowledge, 
but one thing we all have in common, all of us were once beginners! 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:28 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
> 
> well, if this party has threatened or used hate speech, you report  them to 
> the  authorities.  One does not well build a new house instead.
> ..not that you were asking me of course smiles.
> Why not report their conduct to the Internet provider?
> 
> 
> On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Yuma Decaux wrote:
> 
>> Scott,
>> 
>> What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s 
>> say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is 
>> detrimental. It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a 
>> culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on 
>> and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning churches 
>> etc. Don’t you think its time to consider that maybe something does need to 
>> be done?
>> 
>> 
>>> On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone 
>>> else instead of deal with it themselves.
>>> 
>>> If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t.  Nobody 
>>> forces you to read anything.
>>> 
>>> These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because 
>>> someone said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary 
>>> religious value or another.
>>> Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view 
>>> is the right view so all others be damned.
>>> 
>>> wow
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten >>> > wrote:
 
 For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to 
 have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I 
 know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I 
 also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send 
 email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their 
 homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should 
 several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two 
 outliers who make itunpleasant  for everybody. If a list is said to be 
 moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that 
 the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them 
 consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, 
 start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes 
 freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months 
 ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or 
 heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few 
 people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to 
 take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining 
 my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, 
 this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did his or 
 her job.
 Mary
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler  > wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hello Scott,
> There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
> who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
> someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
> frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
> continue, said individual is removed from the community.
> 
> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
> it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
> etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
> am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
> elimenate all the side bickering?
> On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>> I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
>> policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
>> or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)
>> 
>> You bring up a good point

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

I just laugh at the person when he writes the messages which people don't like. 
I don't care what he says. He does not worry me. I laugh and then I delete.



> On 26 Aug 2015, at 10:48 pm, Rich Ring  wrote:
> 
> I am aware of who the individual who seems to like to get peoples feelings 
> stirred up is, and since I know where my delete key is, I have no problem 
> with this individual. This individual comes and goes, and unless excluded, 
> he’ll be back! However, my delete key is a constant, not a variable, 
> although, I read some of his messages because I kind of enjoy the absurd! 
> This is, overall, an extremely helpful list, and the majority of its 
> contributors are not only helpful, but respectful. All of us do not share the 
> same level of knowledge, but one thing we all have in common, all of us were 
> once beginners! 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:28 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
>> 
>> well, if this party has threatened or used hate speech, you report  them to 
>> the  authorities.  One does not well build a new house instead.
>> ..not that you were asking me of course smiles.
>> Why not report their conduct to the Internet provider?
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Yuma Decaux wrote:
>>> 
>>> Scott,
>>> 
>>> What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s 
>>> say the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is 
>>> detrimental. It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a 
>>> culminating effect of driving the discussion towards what to do with him, 
>>> on and off list. Your words are also getting more radical, mentioning 
>>> churches etc. Don’t you think its time to consider that maybe something 
>>> does need to be done?
>>> 
>>> 
 On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
 
 I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone 
 else instead of deal with it themselves.
 
 If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t.  Nobody 
 forces you to read anything.
 
 These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because 
 someone said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary 
 religious value or another.
Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view 
 is the right view so all others be damned.
 
 wow
 
 
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten  > wrote:
> 
> For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to 
> have new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. 
> I know that is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I 
> also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you 
> send email to a list of several hundred people, you are coming into their 
> homes. And you did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should 
> several hundred people be expected to write filtersbecause of one or two 
> outliers who make itunpleasant  for everybody. If a list is said to be 
> moderated, people who signed up for that list have a right to expect that 
> the rules will be followed and that those who do not follow them 
> consistently will be taken off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, 
> start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes 
> freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many months 
> ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or 
> heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few 
> people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to 
> take action, or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm 
> joining my voice with the chorus of those who say that in the best of all 
> worlds, this list would remain but would have an active moderator who did 
> his or her job.
> Mary
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler > > wrote:
>> 
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> Hello Scott,
>> There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
>> who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
>> someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
>> frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
>> continue, said individual is removed from the community.
>> 
>> I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
>> it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
>> conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
>> etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
>> am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
>> elimenate all

Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Jim Gatteys]

good for you for mentioning his name.  We've all talked around him like he's 
the plague of death but nobody mentioning his name.  Maybe if everybody told 
him to stop he would at least have to think about it.

> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:44 PM, tim  wrote:
> 
> I have ben on many blind lists of different types of content. ever time
> Chris gets on a list this happens. They only way to stop him is to remove him 
> and any new creations he signs up with. Maybe in time he will get his act 
> together, but he won’t learn until he is shoved out into the cold. 
> Now Chris you don’t need to respond, because I already delete your mail on 
> all lists your on, so don’t wast the time!
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Devin Prater  wrote:
>> 
>> Well, if an island is infested with dangerous creatures, and no one can even 
>> get into the island, would it not be best to destroy the old and find a new 
>> one?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:23 PM, Karen Lewellen  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I did not realize the list was spoiled smiles.
>>> Is this not a decision by  you, choosing to think the list is  spoiled, , 
>>> regardless of the bad..ahem apple?
>>> Such can be ignored can it not?  creating a new list just  rewards their 
>>> behavior... does it not?
>>> 
>>> 
 On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:
 
 meh. true. However, a slightly more moderated approach will keep the bad 
 apples (bad joke) from spoiling the rest. :)
 
 -eric
 
> On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> 
> Actually, i fail to understand how making anew list will impact  anything 
> really.
> As I understand it, so much that is the issue is based on behavior...and 
> humans will show up wherever the list goes smiles.
> Kare
> 
> 
>> On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:
>> 
>> probably not. However, it doesn't hurt to have a backup.
>> 
>> -eric
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list 
>>> should be or not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to 
>>> die?
>>> 
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
>> --
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>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
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>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> 
 
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 "MacVisionaries" group.
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>> 
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Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Littlefield, Tyler]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Creating a new list in no way rewards any misbehavior or otherwise. It
says "We're here as a community to stay, here are some guidelines.
Follow them or there's the door." I don't plan to moderate that heavy
handed, but when people are leaving because they're being verbally
abused, I have a problem and will step in.
On 8/26/2015 5:23 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> I did not realize the list was spoiled smiles. Is this not a
> decision by  you, choosing to think the list is  spoiled, ,
> regardless of the bad..ahem apple? Such can be ignored can it not?
> creating a new list just  rewards their behavior... does it not?
> 
> 
> On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:
> 
>> meh. true. However, a slightly more moderated approach will keep
>> the bad apples (bad joke) from spoiling the rest. :)
>> 
>> -eric
>> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> 
>>> Actually, i fail to understand how making anew list will impact
>>>  anything really. As I understand it, so much that is the issue
>>> is based on behavior...and humans will show up wherever the
>>> list goes smiles. Kare
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:
>>> 
 probably not. However, it doesn't hurt to have a backup.
 
 -eric
 
 On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
 
> Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether
> this list should be or not be, is this list going to
> continue or is it going to die?
> 
> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe
> from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To
> post to this group, send email to
> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more
> options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
 
 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to
 the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from
 this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
 to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to
 this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. 
 Visit this group at
 http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more
 options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
 
 
>> 
>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>> group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to
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>> group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more
>> options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
>> 


- -- 
Take care,
Ty
twitter: @sorressean
web:http://tysdomain.com
pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
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Re: Just my thoughts.

[Littlefield, Tyler]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

There's a glaring difference you're overlooking.
If someone were to start cursing and ranting, perhaps I or another
moderator wouldn't catch the first 10, but we would moderate as soon
as we caught it. The topic could be closed and that would be that. Any
other future behavior from said person would result in other actions
being taken.

So No, I can't promise to catch every bad thing ever said. What I can
say is things will not devolve to the point where they are now.

I've made this point multiple times and I will continue to make it.
I've seen countless people joining. That means that people are unhappy
with the situation as it currently stands and just want something to
change. I'm totally behind that. Lets go back to things being
civilized, shal we?
On 8/26/2015 5:16 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
> So let's say who ever offends subscribes to the new list and says
> something out of sorts then there is a spat on that new list before
> a mod steps in.  You see in my thinking, the damage is already been
> done as harsh words are said and therefore in my thinking the same
> problem occurs.  I know a mod can band them straight away but we
> being human beings don't always forget the bad things as it's in
> human nature to remember harsh words.
> 
> Personally I have had people writing to me saying that they no
> longer wish to communicate with me who belong to this list.  Whilst
> I don't like it because I prefer to try and talk issues through, I
> have had to learn to accept that people will not speak to me and
> have had to continue as if nothing has happened.  That for me has
> been very hard to deal with but I have had to do so.  So for me, it
> doesn't matter what a person may say as long as we all respect each
> other.  One of the reasons why I don't contribute so much to this
> list because people can drop a friend ship after knowing you for
> more than four years.  A painful lesson.
> 
> Kawal.
> 


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Moderator Note - Important -was- Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Cara Quinn]

Hello All,

firstly, this list is not going to die.

Now, to be completely frank and honest with you all. I have been in the 
hospital for days now, visiting with a very dear one to me, who is passing away.

So honestly, I cannot address any of these matters right now.

The fact is, you are all adults and you know enough to ignore posts or posters 
who simply want (for whatever reason) to incite or stir the pot so to speak.

So if there is a message you do not wish to read, or do not agree with, just 
delete it and move on. This is the adult thing to do.

Neither a list owner or moderator are magic people who make everything alright. 
Yes, we can ban people, etc, but in the end, this comes down to you all 
managing yourselves in a way which you all are proud of.

that is what makes this list worth something.

So if you feel this list is a resource you wish to preserve and help to grow, 
as you have been doing now for years, then just simply act in accordance with 
those beliefs which you know to be right and the rest will follow.

I promise you, I will address this more fully when I can. I am sure (or at 
least would hope) that in light of these circumstances, that you would 
understand.

My sincerest apologies that there have been issues of late. Some of these are 
actually being dealt with already, in the background, but the fact that this 
topic exists says that you need more.

I will do more as soon as I can.

For now, please use your own good judgement and simply act as you know you 
should, and this list will be the kind and helping place that it has been.

Thank you all for reading this and I will be in touch again soon.

Sincerely,

Cara
---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:

Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether this list should be or 
not be, is this list going to continue or is it going to die?

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My Own Thoughts on Today's Subjects

[Shawn Krasniuk]

Hi all. I, like others, also say that making a new Mac Visionaries list won't 
solve anything. The reality of the matter is that drama follows us everywhere 
and if we make a whole new mailing list, we're basically running away from 
reality. Cara made an excellent point earlier and I'm proud that she was honest 
enough to come out in the open and explain herself. It's hard to lose someone 
you care dearly about, and I give her my sincere condolences.
Now, about the certain somebody that you all keep writing about, and I know who 
all of you are talking about. You each may have your own reasons for why you 
dislike him so much, but your contempt for him over shadows what he's done for 
this community, and I for one appreciate what he's done. I mean, I'm like him. 
When I post to this list about issues or opinions, I'm hoping that my 
intentions are good and that somebody appreciates them without having to ask 
for that appreciation. And when people attack me, just like someone did last 
week, (you know who you are), because I gave an honest opinion about the iPhone 
6 Plus and why I don't need one right now, it's like a slap in the face. It's 
like someone coming up to you and saying, "We don't care what you think so shut 
the F**K up." I mean, has this list turned into so much of a drama pool where 
people like me can't voice questions or opinions without getting attacked? 
Because if so, that's fine. I'm on other mailing lists so I'll just share my 
contributions and opinions with those lists because they actually care what I 
have to say. And my other point is simple. Cara made a really good point. I 
think some of us have forgotten where the delete key is on the computer. So 
rather than pressing that magical button, people would rather post to the list 
creating more traffic just to bash that person. So let me give those people 
something to think about before you press the reply button to bash me. If you 
press that reply button, you're no better than the person that offended you. 
End of story. I hope you all have an excellent night/morning or whatever it is 
you live.

Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook
Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
Skype username: bbstheblindrapper
Facetime: bbssh...@icloud.com

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Computer isn't recognizing my bluetooth keyboard

[Marie Lyons]

They supposedly paired it with the computer in the Apple store. I turned it on 
at home and the bluetooth setup assistant says no keyboard found. Any 
suggestions?

Marie 
 Fixed income, hell mine is broken Sent from my iPhone

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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Karen Lewellen]

Good for you!
Stand in that delete power.
I believe he is on another list I am on,  but since I understand that I am 
the one writing the dictionary of what I will allow to define me, I read 
what is relevant, and ignore the rest.
I learn so much from the majority,  that it seems disrespectful of the 
quality coffee to focus on anything else.

Kare


On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Rich Ring wrote:


I am aware of who the individual who seems to like to get peoples feelings 
stirred up is, and since I know where my delete key is, I have no problem with 
this individual. This individual comes and goes, and unless excluded, he’ll be 
back! However, my delete key is a constant, not a variable, although, I read 
some of his messages because I kind of enjoy the absurd! This is, overall, an 
extremely helpful list, and the majority of its contributors are not only 
helpful, but respectful. All of us do not share the same level of knowledge, 
but one thing we all have in common, all of us were once beginners!

On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:28 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

well, if this party has threatened or used hate speech, you report  them to the 
 authorities.  One does not well build a new house instead.
..not that you were asking me of course smiles.
Why not report their conduct to the Internet provider?


On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Yuma Decaux wrote:


Scott,

What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home analogy, or let’s say 
the social club analogy. A majority is agreeing that this guy is detrimental. 
It’s been months like this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of 
driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and off list. Your words 
are also getting more radical, mentioning churches etc. Don’t you think its 
time to consider that maybe something does need to be done?



On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

I think its funny how people like to push the responsibility on to someone else 
instead of deal with it themselves.

If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then don’t.  Nobody forces 
you to read anything.

These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on TV because someone 
said something they don’t like or it offends some arbitrary religious value or 
another.
Oh I don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it, my view 
is the right view so all others be damned.

wow




On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote:

For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best thing would be to have 
new moderators on this list, rather than fragmenting the community. I know that 
is not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea. I also don't agree 
with the wild West approach. I'm sorry. But when you send email to a list of 
several hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you did not have a 
right to abuse that privilege. Nor should several hundred people be expected to 
write filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make itunpleasant  for 
everybody. If a list is said to be moderated, people who signed up for that 
list have a right to expect that the rules will be followed and that those who 
do not follow them consistently will be taken off the list. If you like 
unmoderated lists, start one, or, if you want to check one out, go check out 
the eyes freelist. The last time I was on there, which was admittedly many 
months ago, it was horrible. I'm not arguing for one strike and you're out or 
heavy-handed moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few people 
simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a moderator needs to take action, 
or a new moderator needs to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the 
chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds, this list would remain 
but would have an active moderator who did his or her job.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com>> wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Scott,
There's a vast difference in overly moderating and moderating of those
who make the community unpleasant for others. For example, should
someone receive an email cursing at them (which happens here pretty
frequently), the problem gets solved with a moderation. Should it
continue, said individual is removed from the community.

I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just that
it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide help,
etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I myself
am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to mostly
elimenate all the side bickering?
On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like saying
policing = a good community and I’d dare say the folks of Ferguson
or South Carolina would disagree with that assertion.;)

You bring up a good point I’m just wonde

Re: a new macvisionaries list

[Shaf]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Set a filter for him. he's not worth your inbox space.

On 8/27/2015 2:30 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> Good for you! Stand in that delete power. I believe he is on 
> another list I am on,  but since I understand that I am the one 
> writing the dictionary of what I will allow to define me, I read 
> what is relevant, and ignore the rest. I learn so much from the 
> majority,  that it seems disrespectful of the quality coffee to 
> focus on anything else. Kare
> 
> 
> On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Rich Ring wrote:
> 
>> I am aware of who the individual who seems to like to get peoples
>> feelings stirred up is, and since I know where my delete key is,
>> I have no problem with this individual. This individual comes and
>> goes, and unless excluded, he’ll be back! However, my delete key
>> is a constant, not a variable, although, I read some of his
>> messages because I kind of enjoy the absurd! This is, overall, an
>> extremely helpful list, and the majority of its contributors are
>> not only helpful, but respectful. All of us do not share the same
>> level of knowledge, but one thing we all have in common, all of
>> us were once beginners!
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:28 PM, Karen Lewellen 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> well, if this party has threatened or used hate speech, you 
>>> report them to the  authorities.  One does not well build a
>>> new house instead. ..not that you were asking me of course
>>> smiles. Why not report their conduct to the Internet provider?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Yuma Decaux wrote:
>>> 
 Scott,
 
 What are you really ttryint to get to? Take the same home 
 analogy, or let’s say the social club analogy. A majority is 
 agreeing that this guy is detrimental. It’s been months like 
 this and in recent dates taking a culminating effect of 
 driving the discussion towards what to do with him, on and 
 off list. Your words are also getting more radical, 
 mentioning churches etc. Don’t you think its time to
 consider that maybe something does need to be done?
 
 
> On 27/08/2015, at 2:40 AM, Scott Granados 
>  wrote:
> 
> I think its funny how people like to push the 
> responsibility on to someone else instead of deal with it 
> themselves.
> 
> If you don’t want to invite someone in to your home then 
> don’t. Nobody forces you to read anything.
> 
> These are the same busy bodies who want content pulled on 
> TV because someone said something they don’t like or it 
> offends some arbitrary religious value or another. Oh I 
> don’t like what he said in that song, ban it, moderate it,
>  my view is the right view so all others be damned.
> 
> wow
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Mary Otten 
>> mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> For whatever it may be worth, I really think the best 
>> thing would be to have new moderators on this list, 
>> rather than fragmenting the community. I know that is
>> not a new idea as several have mentioned the same idea.
>> I also don't agree with the wild West approach. I'm
>> sorry. But when you send email to a list of several
>> hundred people, you are coming into their homes. And you
>> did not have a right to abuse that privilege. Nor should
>> several hundred people be expected to write
>> filtersbecause of one or two outliers who make
>> itunpleasant  for everybody. If a list is said to be
>> moderated, people who signed up for that list have a
>> right to expect that the rules will be followed and that
>> those who do not follow them consistently will be taken
>> off the list. If you like unmoderated lists, start one,
>> or, if you want to check one out, go check out the eyes
>> freelist. The last time I was on there, which was
>> admittedly many months ago, it was horrible. I'm not
>> arguing for one strike and you're out or heavy-handed
>> moderation. But when it becomes clear overtime that a few
>> people simply cannot follow simple guidelines, then a
>> moderator needs to take action, or a new moderator needs
>> to be found. So, I guess I'm joining my voice with the
>> chorus of those who say that in the best of all worlds,
>> this list would remain but would have an active moderator
>> who did his or her job. Mary
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 26, 2015, at 4:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler 
>>> mailto:ty...@tysdomain.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
> Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and 
> moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others. 
> For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them
> (which happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved
> with a moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed
> from the community.
> 
> I'm not proposing 

Re: So is this list going to die or not?

[Karen Lewellen]

Then why not simply ask to be the mod here?


On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Creating a new list in no way rewards any misbehavior or otherwise. It
says "We're here as a community to stay, here are some guidelines.
Follow them or there's the door." I don't plan to moderate that heavy
handed, but when people are leaving because they're being verbally
abused, I have a problem and will step in.
On 8/26/2015 5:23 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

I did not realize the list was spoiled smiles. Is this not a
decision by  you, choosing to think the list is  spoiled, ,
regardless of the bad..ahem apple? Such can be ignored can it not?
creating a new list just  rewards their behavior... does it not?


On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:


meh. true. However, a slightly more moderated approach will keep
the bad apples (bad joke) from spoiling the rest. :)

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:


Actually, i fail to understand how making anew list will impact
 anything really. As I understand it, so much that is the issue
is based on behavior...and humans will show up wherever the
list goes smiles. Kare


On Wed, 26 Aug 2015, Eric Oyen wrote:


probably not. However, it doesn't hurt to have a backup.

-eric

On Aug 26, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:


Just wondering after reading all the messages of whether
this list should be or not be, is this list going to
continue or is it going to die?

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two questions about the Mac

[Juliette Swiler]

Hi,
My first question is I got an update notice for Fusion and I only see a learn 
more button, but no option to install it. How do I go about this? Also, in 
iTunes, I am having a strange problem where my podcasts will not update 
properly. However, they update properly via the podcasts app on my iPhone.
Thanks.

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Re: a new macvisionaries list

[r a gindin]

sounds like an argument between the free-speechers and the would-be 
do-gooders.


my ancestors said, "Never wish for a new Tsar."

I monitor this list for my blind grandchild.  While brilliant and a 
talented musician, her hand disabilities make it difficult for her to 
use a keyboard.  ag


On 8/26/15 8:27 AM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hey Donna,
I'm going for exactly that, efficiency. I've had over 50 subscription
requests which I think says a lot to what people want.

I've ran this idea by Chris. He's not really even willing to fully
moderate Chris gilland, so I don't think this is going to work. I
think he's just worried about stepping on Cara's toes should she
decide to return. As I've said, my idea isn't to rule with an iron
fist. You all can do whatever you like as long as you are nice to
people. I think that's a good enough guideline. That would elimenate
so much of the arguing I have to dig through here to find information.
The gems shouldn't be hidden under a pile of trash on any list like this.
On 8/26/2015 8:10 AM, Donna Goodin wrote:

Scott, as you know I'm basically in the same camp as you.  When I
modded the AIphone list, I was frequently criticized for being too
lax.  and i completely agree about the delete key and it's
incredible value. :)  However, unless you decide just not to read
certain people's emails, you do end up slogging through a lot of
unnecessary junk, which few of us have time to do.  So, we all know
who the problematic posters are.  If someone were to say to them,
either shape up or ship out, it would make the list much more
efficient, which I think would be a good thing. Cheers, Donna

On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:00 AM, Scott Granados
 wrote:

See this is where I differ although I think you make very valid
points and as a side note I like your posts and automatically
gave you more weight when I saw you digitally signing messages
and using strong cryptography.:)

I would say that who cares if someone curses.  I in general think
people are way way to thin skinned, especially on mailing lists.
My thinking is that there’s a delete key for a reason and further
more if that’s to much effort do to the volume there are built in
rules that can automatically send whom ever you’re annoyed with
to ground and remove your personal need to see them where as
others may wish to filter differently.  For some reason though
some people need this filtering to be done for them but in the
end I always come down on the side of lack of moderation.  As I
said, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla, different
choices for different folks.

Keep doing what you’re doing though, I know there are multiple
ways to solve the same problem.

Thanks for the response.


On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:56 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
 wrote:


Hello Scott, There's a vast difference in overly moderating and
moderating of those who make the community unpleasant for others.
For example, should someone receive an email cursing at them (which
happens here pretty frequently), the problem gets solved with a
moderation. Should it continue, said individual is removed from the
community.

I'm not proposing that overly prolicing makes a difference, just
that it's possible with an active list owner to create a community
conducive to a place where people can ask questions and provide
help, etc. Can you imagine how much cleaner our inboxes would be (I
myself am somewhat at fault here, as I've said) if we were to
mostly elimenate all the side bickering? On 8/26/2015 7:46 AM,
Scott Granados wrote:

I’m not sure moderation = good community.  That’s like
saying policing = a good community and I’d dare say the
folks of Ferguson or South Carolina would disagree with
that assertion.;)

You bring up a good point I’m just wondering is the
tightening of the rules going to necessarily translate in
to better content.  It might but it’s hard to get enough
people to switch and keep the same value when there’s
already a critical mass of people here.

Good luck though, as one of my favorite talk radio hosts
used to say before he passed away “that’s why they make
chocolate and vanilla”  something for the different
viewpoints.



On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:43 AM, Littlefield, Tyler
 wrote:


Hello: A lot of people have had numerous problems on this
list.

My last response on this list was cursed at and nothing is
being done to stop it. As a result of the
spam/cursing/general throwing of fits, I created a new list
where rules can be enforced and we can have a good
community. On 8/26/2015 2:46 AM, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via
MacVisionaries wrote:


Reply to the Littlefield, Tyler's message, wrote on
26/08/2015 at 05:29:

Hi, sorry but, maybe I lost something. Why a new
list? What is going to happen to this one? Thanks.
Gabriel.




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