RE: VMWare Fusion and JFW

[Simon Fogarty]

It appears to work fine, on the 86 when doing the talks key plus long menu.
 I get the result of stand by, menu, and and messaging. 
So it should be working fine on your device also.


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Snyder
Sent: Friday, 8 October 2010 8:42 a.m.
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: VMWare Fusion and JFW

Hi Michael,
I use VMWare fusion with my old license for jaws10 and windows XP. It works
fine. No issues except not having a built in jaws key. You have to create
one.

Friendly,
Chris

On Oct 7, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Michael Busboom wrote:

> Hi.
> 
> I have VMWare Fusion but use Window-Eyes when running Windows.  I am
attempting to assist a friend who recently purchased a Mac, along with
VMWare Fusion.  Is it possible to install JFW in a VMWare Fusion
environment, or does the copy protection mechanism get in the way?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Mike
> 
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Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question

[Sarah Alawami]

response below your question.

On Oct 9, 2010, at 11:38 PM, John D. Lipsey wrote:

> Also, has anyone successfully performed batch processing with Amadeus?  AS I 
> recall, it wants you to drag and drop files to add to the batch.  Another 
> work around

Go to  the file menu and go to new batch processor
Now set your options in each  tab ignoring that area all the way to the right.
Now when it comes time, rout the vo curser to the area and vo shift space on 
that area.
Now brows to the files. Your batch conversion will start right away.

I hope that helps.

Sarah Alawami
MSN: marri...@gmail.com 
aim: marri...@gmail.com:

website: http://music.marrie.org
face book: facebook.com/marrie
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/

The early bird gets the worm. The late worm gets to live. 

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Re: ABISee and Macs

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Eric,

Actually, as I had indicated when I first reported the beta cycle, I learned 
about it at a conference I was at.  I've signed no disclosure agreements.  I 
don't think the beta is as formal as some apparently believe.  I would suggest 
contacting Abisee directly by phone and inquire about the possibility of trying 
out the software.

Les

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Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question

[heather kd5cbl]

Hello, I use cdx but I think that is only a windows burning program.  Cdx 
allows you to burn in to mp3, ogg and wmb formats by pushing one of the 
function keys.  I have used easy cd creater as well.  But I prefer itunes, 
it does a better job.  I just burn my music to mp3 format and than when I am 
done with all of the cds, I just move them to my external hardrive.  I 
actually put my music folder on the desktop and when it is all done, I put 
the cds on my external.  It does not take me that long.  Heather 


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Re: Loading previous versions of iOS with iTunes for Windows or Mac

[Cara Quinn]

Hi Victor;

With your phone connected to your Mac, while in iTunes, locate the 'restore' 
button with VO. Once it's selected, route your mouse pointer to the button with 
VO command F5 or the shortcut of your choice. Turn VO off and do an option 
click. As you know, you'll obviously need to use the physical mouse or trackpad 
button to do this.

For those who may not know, the Mac allows you to modify mouse or trackpad 
clicks by holding down keyboard keys along with the mouse button click. So in 
this case, one would hold down the 'option' key on the Mac's keyboard while 
clicking your mouse or trackpad.

Now turn VO back on and you should see the choose file dialogue and you can 
navigate to the iOS version you'd like to restore your phone to, on your hard 
drive or network.

HOpe this helps and do have a lovely day!…

Smiles,

Cara :)
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Oct 9, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Victor Tsaran wrote:

Hello all,
I have done this in the past but it doesn't seem to work for me anymore.
What are the steps to load the previous or any other version of the iOS using 
iTunes for Windows or Mac? I remember something about control-clicking on the 
"restore" button to open the "browse" dialog, but can't get it to work neither 
on the Mac of Windows.

Any help would be much appreciated.
Victor
-- 


Check out my new album on iTunes at
http://ax.itunes.apple.com/us/artist/victor-tsaran/id344507896



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Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question

[Sarah Alawami]

Actually the term is rip. you rip cds to mp3, ogg, flac, av, etc. You burn mp3 
or data to disk. A lot of people including myself mix those up or used to 
anyways. but I love itunes  for its simplisity in ripping cds or as apple calls 
them importing.

Good luck.
On Oct 10, 2010, at 5:29 AM, heather kd5cbl wrote:

> Hello, I use cdx but I think that is only a windows burning program.  Cdx 
> allows you to burn in to mp3, ogg and wmb formats by pushing one of the 
> function keys.  I have used easy cd creater as well.  But I prefer itunes, it 
> does a better job.  I just burn my music to mp3 format and than when I am 
> done with all of the cds, I just move them to my external hardrive.  I 
> actually put my music folder on the desktop and when it is all done, I put 
> the cds on my external.  It does not take me that long.  Heather 
> -- 
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> "MacVisionaries" group.
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> 

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Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question

[heather kd5cbl]

Ah, did not have coffee yet.  Rip is the better term!  Heather 


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Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Dear All,

Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.

The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.

I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
curve, stick with it and you'll get there...

All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...

So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
hopefully answer once and for all.

In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.

However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.

This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.

This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.

My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
and of a different design.

What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.

comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.

Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
iPad, all 3 of which I own.

However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity,
or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user
moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again.

*Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's
still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again.

So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for
me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more
importantly one finger for most commands and navigation.

I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one
finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two
fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself
passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered.

So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do
not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging
existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's
biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please
forgive me if I missed up Control and Command.

Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this
is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one
finger for navigation of the Mac itself?

Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I
wish to make the switch, but it has to be because it's as easy or easier,
the fact that Voice Over is more stable is a factor, but not a huge one.

I do not buy all the security hype, nor the OS enhancements or stability
front. Yes Voice Over is more stable than JAWS / Window Eyes, but
principally because it is part of the operating platform, and not because
its superior or that Mac OSx is.

This statement about operating platforms may have held some degree of water
back in the days gone by, but with Windows 7, and a decent PC specification,
one can get as much performance and stability out of a PC as a Mac.
moreover, in terms of security, I've never known anyone I know who has a
brain using a PC to get a virus, the problem is that the PC world is where
the masses are, and many of those masses are nits, and they do stupid
things... when 

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Buddy Brannan]

Hi,

Try quick nav, by pressing the left and right arrows simultaneously. Then, many 
navigation tasks can be handled from the arrows alone. Specifically:
Down+right: Interact
Down+left: stop interacting
Up+right and up+left: change the rotor setting (which is what you navigate with 
up/down arrows in quick nav)
Up/down: navigate by whatever the rotor is set to
Left and right: Navigate as with vo+left and vo+right

Then press left and right together to go back to regular navigation. 

Does this help?
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY



On Oct 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
> 
> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
> 
> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
> curve, stick with it and you'll get there...
> 
> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...
> 
> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
> hopefully answer once and for all.
> 
> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
> if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
> sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
> way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.
> 
> However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
> sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.
> 
> This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
> before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.
> 
> This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
> both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.
> 
> My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
> on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
> the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
> and of a different design.
> 
> What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
> handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
> leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.
> 
> comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
> both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
> commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.
> 
> Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
> would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
> iPad, all 3 of which I own.
> 
> However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity,
> or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user
> moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again.
> 
> *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's
> still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again.
> 
> So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for
> me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more
> importantly one finger for most commands and navigation.
> 
> I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one
> finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two
> fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself
> passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered.
> 
> So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do
> not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging
> existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's
> biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please
> forgive me if I missed up Control and Command.
> 
> Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this
> is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one
> finger for navigation of the Mac itself?
> 
> Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I
> wish to make the switch, but it has to 

Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[louie]

I do most of my key board stuff using one hand. I use NumPad commander.
The one thing you forgot is I can buy a Mac for less than the price of jaws.

louie
louiem...@wavecable.com



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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Teresa Cochran]

Hi, Neil,

I'm commenting before I read the other replies, so that I can give you my own 
response to what you've written.

First, you can use QuickNav in Voiceover, which will give you most 
screen-reader commands with two fingers on one hand.

Secondly, in my experience, when one application freezes on the Mac, this 
doesn't take down the entire session and cause a blue screen. It's only 
necessary to force-quit the misbehaving application ancd stay in the desktop. 
I've gone for weeks without restarting the desktop, much less restarting the 
computer. I have never done this on Windows. This, to me, is a big plus.

Teresa

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[John Sanfilippo]

Hello Neil and list,

I do tend to agree with you re multiple key input. 

I haven't tried this myself, but you might try sticky keys, where you can press 
keys sequentially instead of simultaneously. Of course, you still have a string 
of keys and perhaps vast distances to traverse.

John S


On Oct 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

Dear All,

Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.

The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.

I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
curve, stick with it and you'll get there...

All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...

So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
hopefully answer once and for all.

In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.

However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.

This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.

This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.

My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
and of a different design.

What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.

comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.

Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
iPad, all 3 of which I own.

However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity,
or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user
moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again.

*Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's
still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again.

So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for
me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more
importantly one finger for most commands and navigation.

I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one
finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two
fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself
passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered.

So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do
not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging
existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's
biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please
forgive me if I missed up Control and Command.

Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this
is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one
finger for navigation of the Mac itself?

Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I
wish to make the switch, but it has to be because it's as easy or easier,
the fact that Voice Over is more stable is a factor, but not a huge one.

I do not buy all the security hype, nor the OS enhancements or stability
front. Yes Voice Over is more stable than JAWS / Window Eyes, but
principally because it is part of the operating platform, and not because
its superior or that Mac OSx is.

This statement about operating platforms may have held some degree of water
back in the days gon

Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question

[John D. Lipsey]

Silly question ahead!!

How does one rout the VO cursor to a particular area?  I think I knew this at 
one point, but have forgotten it as I don't tend to use it very often.

On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:27 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> response below your question.
> 
> On Oct 9, 2010, at 11:38 PM, John D. Lipsey wrote:
> 
>> Also, has anyone successfully performed batch processing with Amadeus?  AS I 
>> recall, it wants you to drag and drop files to add to the batch.  Another 
>> work around
> 
> Go to  the file menu and go to new batch processor
> Now set your options in each  tab ignoring that area all the way to the right.
> Now when it comes time, rout the vo curser to the area and vo shift space on 
> that area.
> Now brows to the files. Your batch conversion will start right away.
> 
> I hope that helps.
> 
> Sarah Alawami
> MSN: marri...@gmail.com 
> aim: marri...@gmail.com:
> 
> website: http://music.marrie.org
> face book: facebook.com/marrie
> youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
> Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
> Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/
> 
> The early bird gets the worm. The late worm gets to live. 
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[John D. Lipsey]

Quicknav allows you to use one hand.  I almost never turn quicknav off, unless 
I'm working in a program where I need my arrow keys to function as arrow keys, 
such as Amadeus Pro.  Quicknav is kind of like locking the VO keys, but it only 
applies to the arrow keys, enabling you to still enter text in edit fields and 
such.

Hope this is somewhat helpful.

On Oct 10, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
> 
> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
> 
> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
> curve, stick with it and you'll get there...
> 
> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...
> 
> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
> hopefully answer once and for all.
> 
> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
> if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
> sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
> way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.
> 
> However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
> sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.
> 
> This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
> before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.
> 
> This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
> both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.
> 
> My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
> on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
> the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
> and of a different design.
> 
> What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
> handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
> leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.
> 
> comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
> both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
> commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.
> 
> Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
> would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
> iPad, all 3 of which I own.
> 
> However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity,
> or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user
> moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again.
> 
> *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's
> still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again.
> 
> So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for
> me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more
> importantly one finger for most commands and navigation.
> 
> I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one
> finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two
> fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself
> passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered.
> 
> So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do
> not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging
> existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's
> biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please
> forgive me if I missed up Control and Command.
> 
> Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this
> is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one
> finger for navigation of the Mac itself?
> 
> Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I
> wish to make the switch, but it has to be because it's as easy or easier,
> the fact that Voice Over is more stable is a factor, but not a huge one.
> 
> I do not buy all the security hype, nor the OS enhancements or stability
> front. Yes Voice Over is more st

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Anne Robertson]

Hello Neil,

I've never used a PC so can't make comparisons. However, I currently have a 
student who likes to use just one hand to operate his Mac and he does this by 
using Quick Nav and Keyboard commander.

Everyone has different needs, so you should put in the Keyboard Commander 
shortcuts that you need and that are not duplicated by Quick Nav. You can then 
do most things with your right hand.

There is also nothing to stop you using the standard Mac shortcuts such as 
Ctrl-F2 to go to the Apple menu, Ctrl-F3 to go to the Dock and Ctrl-F8 to go to 
the Status menus.

There are lots more like this and i tend to use them rather than the VO 
equivalents. However, with the VO keys locked, I use the VO commands instead.

Cheers,

Anne


On 10 Oct 2010, at 19:02, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
> 
> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
> 
> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
> curve, stick with it and you'll get there...
> 
> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...
> 
> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
> hopefully answer once and for all.
> 
> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
> if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
> sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
> way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.
> 
> However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
> sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.
> 
> This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
> before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.
> 
> This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
> both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.
> 
> My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
> on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
> the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
> and of a different design.
> 
> What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
> handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
> leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.
> 
> comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
> both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
> commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.
> 
> Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
> would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
> iPad, all 3 of which I own.
> 
> However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity,
> or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user
> moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again.
> 
> *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's
> still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again.
> 
> So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for
> me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more
> importantly one finger for most commands and navigation.
> 
> I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one
> finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two
> fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself
> passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered.
> 
> So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do
> not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging
> existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's
> biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please
> forgive me if I missed up Control and Command.
> 
> Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this
> is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one
> f

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Eric Oyen]

Neil,
thats is a mouthful.

I too am more than a little frustrated with how apple setup voiceover's keys. I 
had to learn this blind with no support and with a mouse I don't use. its slow 
going for right now.

as a refrain: I have not used window eyes or jaws. I used to use windows on a 
separate machine but cannot use that anymore (for now) as I don't have the 
funds to buy/install JAWS or Windows Eyes. so I have nothing to compare to. the 
fact that I am typing so soon after complete visual loss is a testament to the 
technology (and my inability to give up).

-Eric

On Oct 10, 2010, at 10:02 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
> 
> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
> 
> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
> curve, stick with it and you'll get there...
> 
> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...
> 
> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
> hopefully answer once and for all.
> 
> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
> if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
> sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
> way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.
> 
> However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
> sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.
> 
> This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
> before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.
> 
> This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
> both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.
> 
> My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
> on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
> the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
> and of a different design.
> 
> What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
> handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
> leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.
> 
> comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
> both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
> commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.
> 
> Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
> would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
> iPad, all 3 of which I own.
> 
> However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity,
> or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user
> moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again.
> 
> *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's
> still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again.
> 
> So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for
> me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more
> importantly one finger for most commands and navigation.
> 
> I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one
> finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two
> fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself
> passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered.
> 
> So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do
> not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging
> existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's
> biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please
> forgive me if I missed up Control and Command.
> 
> Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this
> is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one
> finger for navigation of the Mac itself?
> 
> Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I
> wish to make the switch, but it has to be be

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Carolyn]

Hi Neil and others:
I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a year, 
and only made the switch semi-successfully.  Further, I'm not a genius, a tech 
expert, or even a wizzard.  I'm just a computer user who is fascinated by what 
I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for my daily functioning.  
Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS 
using one finger.  That to me is a big stretch.  Unless, of course you are a 
wizzard:).
Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here.  Two totally different 
operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things.  Microsoft has 
been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at least the early 90's 
 If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great for you.   I also find 
myself frustrated by some of the fingering requirements of the OS with 
Voiceover.  It's far from perfect.  But, toexpect the same level of comfort 
from a system that is a standard, out-of-the-box system is putting the bar too 
high for a company that is finally trying to level the playingfield for us.
Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and 
energy to get as far as I have on the MAC.  But, I did so knowing this field 
hasn't been thoroughly plowed.  I wanted to have an option other than paying 
Freedom Scientific another 900 to get JAWS up-to-date.  Which meant no new 
computer for at least a couple more years.  So, I requested a Mac as a 
Christmas present, and I'm doing my best to make this an option for me and 
others who, like me, don't think we should have to pay more to get less.
Now, if I had the PC down to one-finger use, as you say you have, perhaps I'd 
be telling a different story.  For now, I'm pretty happy to learn and grow into 
a system as it grows and developes, rather than forking out another thousand to 
line the pockets of specialty providers.
End of soapbox.  Thanks for reading.

Carolyn


  - Original Message - 
  From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:02 AM
  Subject: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...


  Dear All,

  Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
  for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
  have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.

  The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
  my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
  of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
  key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.

  I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
  think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
  readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
  curve, stick with it and you'll get there...

  All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
  watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
  don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...

  So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
  hopefully answer once and for all.

  In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
  if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
  sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
  way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.

  However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
  sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.

  This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
  before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.

  This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
  both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.

  My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
  on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
  the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
  and of a different design.

  What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
  handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
  leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.

  comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
  both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
  commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.

  Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
  would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
  iPad, all 3 of which I own.

  However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from

RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Louie,

I did not forget that, and whilst I appreciate that price is a sensitive
issue for many on the list. I specifically left it out of my question, as
price is not an issue here.

the issue is purely productivity and get things done.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of louie
Sent: 10 October 2010 18:37
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

I do most of my key board stuff using one hand. I use NumPad commander.
The one thing you forgot is I can buy a Mac for less than the price of jaws.

louie
louiem...@wavecable.com



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RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Teresa,

as I've pointed out, gone are the days of the blue screen of death on a PC.
I never have application crashes which bring down the whole machine, haven't
done so for many years now.

this is purely about navigation with a Mac.



Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Teresa Cochran
Sent: 10 October 2010 18:37
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Hi, Neil,

I'm commenting before I read the other replies, so that I can give you my
own response to what you've written.

First, you can use QuickNav in Voiceover, which will give you most
screen-reader commands with two fingers on one hand.

Secondly, in my experience, when one application freezes on the Mac, this
doesn't take down the entire session and cause a blue screen. It's only
necessary to force-quit the misbehaving application ancd stay in the
desktop. I've gone for weeks without restarting the desktop, much less
restarting the computer. I have never done this on Windows. This, to me, is
a big plus.

Teresa

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RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

John,

a worthwhile suggestion, and I thank you, but it is still less productive
and efficient as my PC experience at this time.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Sanfilippo
Sent: 10 October 2010 18:40
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Hello Neil and list,

I do tend to agree with you re multiple key input. 

I haven't tried this myself, but you might try sticky keys, where you can
press keys sequentially instead of simultaneously. Of course, you still have
a string of keys and perhaps vast distances to traverse.

John S


On Oct 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

Dear All,

Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.

The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.

I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
curve, stick with it and you'll get there...

All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...

So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
hopefully answer once and for all.

In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.

However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.

This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.

This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.

My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
and of a different design.

What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.

comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.

Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
iPad, all 3 of which I own.

However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity,
or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user
moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again.

*Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's
still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again.

So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for
me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more
importantly one finger for most commands and navigation.

I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one
finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two
fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself
passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered.

So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do
not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging
existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's
biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please
forgive me if I missed up Control and Command.

Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this
is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one
finger for navigation

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[heather kd5cbl]

Yes, there is also voice operation as well!  If you cant do the keyboard 
commands, I think you can operate your computer through voice!  I am not 
sure how much, perhaps an experience mac user might chime in here.  Heather 


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RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Carolyn,

 

thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do
not wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.

 

but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger
navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its
Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.

 

Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user
can use their Mac in this way.

 

All I want is that level playing field.

 

Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what
the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.

 

Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that
Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing,
sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this
conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.

 

its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other
accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or
wrongly, and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one
persons needs on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the
Apple approach to work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on
this list.

 

I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you
can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off.
this helps a lot.

 

Twitter @neilbarnfather

 

Neil Barnfather

Talks List Administrator

 

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit
 www.talknav.com

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Carolyn
Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Hi Neil and others:

I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a
year, and only made the switch semi-successfully.  Further, I'm not a
genius, a tech expert, or even a wizzard.  I'm just a computer user who is
fascinated by what I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for
my daily functioning.  

Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS
using one finger.  That to me is a big stretch.  Unless, of course you are a
wizzard:).

Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here.  Two totally different
operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things.  Microsoft
has been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at least the
early 90's  If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great for you.   I
also find myself frustrated by some of the fingering requirements of the OS
with Voiceover.  It's far from perfect.  But, toexpect the same level of
comfort from a system that is a standard, out-of-the-box system is putting
the bar too high for a company that is finally trying to level the
playingfield for us.

Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and
energy to get as far as I have on the MAC.  But, I did so knowing this field
hasn't been thoroughly plowed.  I wanted to have an option other than paying
Freedom Scientific another 900 to get JAWS up-to-date.  Which meant no new
computer for at least a couple more years.  So, I requested a Mac as a
Christmas present, and I'm doing my best to make this an option for me and
others who, like me, don't think we should have to pay more to get less.

Now, if I had the PC down to one-finger use, as you say you have, perhaps
I'd be telling a different story.  For now, I'm pretty happy to learn and
grow into a system as it grows and developes, rather than forking out
another thousand to line the pockets of specialty providers.

End of soapbox.  Thanks for reading.

 

Carolyn

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav   

To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 

Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:02 AM

Subject: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

 

Dear All,

Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.

The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.

I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
curve, stick with it and you'll get there...

All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
watch ove

RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Anne,

so you hit the nail on the head in part here, so I'm busy reading the Voice
Over manual, which happily guides me through how to do everything the Voice
Over way, yet, hang on, there's already a command for that for sighted
users, such as the Command F2, which is mirrored by Control, Options, M,
well there you have it, three keys instead of two, the sighted Mac keyboard
user gets an easier ride than the blind keyboard Mac user.

what Apple should do is remove all the duplicate commands. if you can do it
with an already established command, they should just put that in the
manual, that way us blind users aren't learning a completely different
structure of commands to our sighted peers.

Several family members have Mac's, yet I feel isolated from asking for help
from them, as they are used to things just like you have said, they say
Command F2, I say no, its Control, Options, M... this isn't how it should be
and is counterproductive.

well is in my book anyhow.

has anyone sat down and rewritten the Voice Over manual by any chance
removing all the unique Voice Over commands and replacing them with existing
established keyboard commands?

I would be interested to see just how much over lap there is.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
Sent: 10 October 2010 18:56
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Hello Neil,

I've never used a PC so can't make comparisons. However, I currently have a
student who likes to use just one hand to operate his Mac and he does this
by using Quick Nav and Keyboard commander.

Everyone has different needs, so you should put in the Keyboard Commander
shortcuts that you need and that are not duplicated by Quick Nav. You can
then do most things with your right hand.

There is also nothing to stop you using the standard Mac shortcuts such as
Ctrl-F2 to go to the Apple menu, Ctrl-F3 to go to the Dock and Ctrl-F8 to go
to the Status menus.

There are lots more like this and i tend to use them rather than the VO
equivalents. However, with the VO keys locked, I use the VO commands
instead.

Cheers,

Anne


On 10 Oct 2010, at 19:02, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no
need
> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
> 
> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential
piece
> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
> 
> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
> curve, stick with it and you'll get there...
> 
> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius
to
> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response,
I
> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...
> 
> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
> hopefully answer once and for all.
> 
> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
> if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from
the
> sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the
same
> way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.
> 
> However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
> sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.
> 
> This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader
either
> before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.
> 
> This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
> both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same
way.
> 
> My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their
implementation
> on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that,
it's
> the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
> and of a different design.
> 
> What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
> handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
> leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.
> 
> comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to
use
> both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and a

last question of the day converting avi to ogg?

[John D. Lipsey]

Hi all:

I have several avi files that I'd like to convert to ogg, hence my question 
earlier about batch processing.  However, it appears that Amadeus won't open 
avi files.  Therefore, I'd like some recommendations of alternatives.  
Preferably something that will do batch processing, but that's not entirely 
necessary... I can convert each file one at a time if I must, but there are 
over 40 of them.

Thanks again.

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RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Neil Barnfather - TalkNav]

Heather,

thank you, also a good idea, but not practical in many of the situations and
environments I find myself working in.

but thank you never the less.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of heather kd5cbl
Sent: 10 October 2010 19:51
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Yes, there is also voice operation as well!  If you cant do the keyboard 
commands, I think you can operate your computer through voice!  I am not 
sure how much, perhaps an experience mac user might chime in here.  Heather 

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RE: Turning sound back on

[RvR]

Many thanks for the replies and especially Ricardo's! It worked like a charm
and my Mac talks again [smiles] 
Love this list with all you knowledgeable folks.
Talk soon,
Ronald


-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] Namens Ricardo Walker
Verzonden: zondag 10 oktober 2010 0:00
Aan: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: Turning sound back on

Hi Ronald,

Try doing this.  Press VO M to go to the menu bar then press VO spacebar.
Now press the letter S twice and press enter.  Then press tab once, and type
sound and press VO spacebar.  Now press vo right arrow twice to bring you to
the output tab and press VO spacebar to select it.  After that, press vo
right arrow 3 times and you will be in the output table.  press the up and
down arrows until sound comes back.

hth
On Oct 9, 2010, at 4:58 PM, RvR wrote:

> Hello all,
> Just accidently turned off the sound on my Mac Pro by selecting no 
> sound for the sound output probably ... stupid me. I couldn't get it 
> back and have no Voice Over to guide me.. Is there a shortcut to change
the sound output?
> Greatly appreciated!
> Ronald
> 
> --
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> 

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Ian McNamara]

Hello all i have only been a mac user for just over a month and i have to say i 
can see neels point. I have to say it would be good if they could create a way 
where like jaws the option key could become like a windows key and take you in 
to all the menues that way and give the controle key some of the commands that 
you would need voice over keys for. although i have got use to the voice over 
keys it is slightly anoying to have to hold them down just to move around a web 
sight. forinstance if you are highlighted on a check box with jaws all you have 
to do is press space bar how ever if you are on with voice over you have to 
hold them two keys down before pressing space. How ever as i said to a friend 
of mine on the phone the other week i do not regret making the switch to the 
mac and do find it in a lot of ways better to use than windows. it would just 
be nice if they could modify voice over a bit to make it easyer to use. sorry 
if this has been a bit of a ramble hope that people understand what i am 
getting at. 

Ian McNamara

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Ian McNamara]

very useful info think i will keep this as a reffrance. 

Ian McNamara

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RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Jude DaShiell]

Universal keyboard navigation like f1 for help and all the other 
keystrokes came from I.B.M. among others, Microsoft just complied with an 
already existing and published standard.  Same deal with file formats in 
Microsoft Office, they're all in the ISO standards.On Sun, 10 Oct 2010, 
Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:




Carolyn,



thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do
not wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.



but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger
navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its
Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.



Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user
can use their Mac in this way.



All I want is that level playing field.



Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what
the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.



Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that
Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing,
sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this
conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.



its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other
accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or
wrongly, and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one
persons needs on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the
Apple approach to work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on
this list.



I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you
can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off.
this helps a lot.



Twitter @neilbarnfather



Neil Barnfather

Talks List Administrator



TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit
 www.talknav.com



From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Carolyn
Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...



Hi Neil and others:

I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a
year, and only made the switch semi-successfully.  Further, I'm not a
genius, a tech expert, or even a wizzard.  I'm just a computer user who is
fascinated by what I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for
my daily functioning.

Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS
using one finger.  That to me is a big stretch.  Unless, of course you are a
wizzard:).

Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here.  Two totally different
operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things.  Microsoft
has been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at least the
early 90's  If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great for you.   I
also find myself frustrated by some of the fingering requirements of the OS
with Voiceover.  It's far from perfect.  But, toexpect the same level of
comfort from a system that is a standard, out-of-the-box system is putting
the bar too high for a company that is finally trying to level the
playingfield for us.

Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and
energy to get as far as I have on the MAC.  But, I did so knowing this field
hasn't been thoroughly plowed.  I wanted to have an option other than paying
Freedom Scientific another 900 to get JAWS up-to-date.  Which meant no new
computer for at least a couple more years.  So, I requested a Mac as a
Christmas present, and I'm doing my best to make this an option for me and
others who, like me, don't think we should have to pay more to get less.

Now, if I had the PC down to one-finger use, as you say you have, perhaps
I'd be telling a different story.  For now, I'm pretty happy to learn and
grow into a system as it grows and developes, rather than forking out
another thousand to line the pockets of specialty providers.

End of soapbox.  Thanks for reading.



Carolyn





- Original Message -

From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav 

To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:02 AM

Subject: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...



Dear All,

Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.

The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.

I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's n

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Scott Howell]

Not only can you turn quicknav on/off and interact/stop interacting with an 
item, but you can use the rotor to change how you navigate with the up/down 
arrow keys. 
You can cycle through words, characters, and navigation. This allows you the 
ability to use quicknav to perform a considerable number of navigation routines 
with one hand. I have the opportunity to use both WIndow-EYes as well for some 
very specific applications; however, I cannot navigate using Window-Eyes with 
one hand and be remotely as efficient. I believe this whole issue of efficiency 
with this or that screen reader or operating system is very personal. I find 
the Mac to meet nearly all my needs. THe only issue I have is I must use 
Microsoft Word until I can ensure an effective method of sharing documents with 
coworkers who use WOrd and certain specialized web applications where I need 
Firefox or IE. Some on the other hand may find that their comfort level is 
insufficient to effectively switch completely. For anyone who is considering a 
switch for whatever reason, just needs to know things are different and your 
success will depend upon the level of effort you are willing to expend. So, for 
me, VoiceOver makes perfect since, I can operate it more efficiently than I 
ever could Window-Eyes (even though I use WE longer), and I am just as if not 
more efficient as a Mac user; however, I stress again, this is me.

On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Carolyn,
>  
> thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do not 
> wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.
>  
> but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger 
> navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its 
> Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.
>  
> Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user 
> can use their Mac in this way.
>  
> All I want is that level playing field.
>  
> Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what 
> the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.
>  
> Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that 
> Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing, 
> sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this 
> conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.
>  
> its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other 
> accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or wrongly, 
> and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one persons needs 
> on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the Apple approach to 
> work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on this list.
>  
> I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you 
> can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off. 
> this helps a lot.
>  
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>  
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>  
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
> phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Carolyn
> Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>  
> Hi Neil and others:
> I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a 
> year, and only made the switch semi-successfully.  Further, I'm not a genius, 
> a tech expert, or even a wizzard.  I'm just a computer user who is fascinated 
> by what I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for my daily 
> functioning. 
> Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS 
> using one finger.  That to me is a big stretch.  Unless, of course you are a 
> wizzard:).
> Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here.  Two totally different 
> operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things.  Microsoft has 
> been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at least the early 
> 90's  If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great for you.   I also 
> find myself frustrated by some of the fingering requirements of the OS with 
> Voiceover.  It's far from perfect.  But, toexpect the same level of 
> comfort from a system that is a standard, out-of-the-box system is putting 
> the bar too high for a company that is finally trying to level the 
> playingfield for us.
> Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and 
> energy to get as far as I have on the MAC.  But, I did so knowing this field 
> hasn't been thoroughly plowed.  I wanted to have an option other than paying 
> Freedom Scientific another 900 to get JAWS up-to-date.  Which meant no new 
> computer for at least a couple more years.  So, I reque

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Scott Howell]

SOmetimes I think the question really is why did the Apple Engineers come up 
with the alternate key commands instead of leveraging the existing commands of 
the OS? I suspect this was to keep uniformity with all the other non-OS 
specific commands. Was that the right choice? That is a good question and I 
think you can argue both sides. Uniformity is valuable when people are trying 
to learn something new, but at the same time leveraging the existing commands 
can be valuable as if nothing else, it frees up other commands that could be 
use for the screen reader. Perhaps this is a suggestion for Apple. Of course 
the fact that you have the choice is great and at least the VO commands do not 
interfere with other apps, which is typically not the case with Windows screen 
readers. So, at least that is one good move Apple made. Ah, one other point I 
imagine you could argue in favor of the VO commands (not a big point perhaps) 
is you do not have to generally move your hands as far from the home row. :)

On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Anne,
> 
> so you hit the nail on the head in part here, so I'm busy reading the Voice
> Over manual, which happily guides me through how to do everything the Voice
> Over way, yet, hang on, there's already a command for that for sighted
> users, such as the Command F2, which is mirrored by Control, Options, M,
> well there you have it, three keys instead of two, the sighted Mac keyboard
> user gets an easier ride than the blind keyboard Mac user.
> 
> what Apple should do is remove all the duplicate commands. if you can do it
> with an already established command, they should just put that in the
> manual, that way us blind users aren't learning a completely different
> structure of commands to our sighted peers.
> 
> Several family members have Mac's, yet I feel isolated from asking for help
> from them, as they are used to things just like you have said, they say
> Command F2, I say no, its Control, Options, M... this isn't how it should be
> and is counterproductive.
> 
> well is in my book anyhow.
> 
> has anyone sat down and rewritten the Voice Over manual by any chance
> removing all the unique Voice Over commands and replacing them with existing
> established keyboard commands?
> 
> I would be interested to see just how much over lap there is.
> 
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
> 
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
> 
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
> Sent: 10 October 2010 18:56
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
> 
> Hello Neil,
> 
> I've never used a PC so can't make comparisons. However, I currently have a
> student who likes to use just one hand to operate his Mac and he does this
> by using Quick Nav and Keyboard commander.
> 
> Everyone has different needs, so you should put in the Keyboard Commander
> shortcuts that you need and that are not duplicated by Quick Nav. You can
> then do most things with your right hand.
> 
> There is also nothing to stop you using the standard Mac shortcuts such as
> Ctrl-F2 to go to the Apple menu, Ctrl-F3 to go to the Dock and Ctrl-F8 to go
> to the Status menus.
> 
> There are lots more like this and i tend to use them rather than the VO
> equivalents. However, with the VO keys locked, I use the VO commands
> instead.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> 
> On 10 Oct 2010, at 19:02, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no
> need
>> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
>> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
>> 
>> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
>> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential
> piece
>> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
>> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
>> 
>> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
>> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
>> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
>> curve, stick with it and you'll get there...
>> 
>> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius
> to
>> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response,
> I
>> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...
>> 
>> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
>> hopefully answer once and for all.
>> 
>> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
>> if you took 2 PC users, one sig

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[David Taylor]

Neil,

As somebody who has literally just switched, I would say two things.

Firstly, your analysis of the way people use computers doesn't take account of 
the fact that any person using the keyboard can only do what the keyboard 
allows. Voice Over does not reorganise content on the screen like Windows 
screen readers sometimes do, and many VO keystrokes are duplicates of what you 
can do in the OS anyway. A sighted person could not navigate to any part of the 
screen that the keyboard doesn't give access to in either system. 

In terms on one handed use, Quick Nav beats anything any screen reader can 
offer, and this can be turned on and off whenever you desire. You can navigate 
the whole OS from the arrow keys this way. Further, you get access to static 
text and all sorts of information that just can't be had with any other screen 
reader due to the way VO navigates. In terms of absolute productivity, the Item 
chooser is the best way of navigating to many controls and works everywhere. I 
honestly find myself using fewer fingers than I did in Windows.Even Windows 7 
can't offer me the levels of access OS X  does!

Cheers
Dave

On 10 Oct 2010, at 18:02, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

Dear All,

Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.

The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.

I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
curve, stick with it and you'll get there...

All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...

So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
hopefully answer once and for all.

In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.

However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.

This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.

This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.

My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
and of a different design.

What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.

comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.

Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
iPad, all 3 of which I own.

However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity,
or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user
moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again.

*Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's
still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again.

So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for
me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more
importantly one finger for most commands and navigation.

I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one
finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two
fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself
passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered.

So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do
not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging
existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's
biggest hurdle is the Voice O

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Scott Howell]

Ian,

If you learn quicknav, I think this will help address your desire to use one 
hand instead of two. CHeck it out, I believe you will find this satisfactory.
On Oct 10, 2010, at 3:12 PM, Ian McNamara wrote:

> Hello all i have only been a mac user for just over a month and i have to say 
> i can see neels point. I have to say it would be good if they could create a 
> way where like jaws the option key could become like a windows key and take 
> you in to all the menues that way and give the controle key some of the 
> commands that you would need voice over keys for. although i have got use to 
> the voice over keys it is slightly anoying to have to hold them down just to 
> move around a web sight. forinstance if you are highlighted on a check box 
> with jaws all you have to do is press space bar how ever if you are on with 
> voice over you have to hold them two keys down before pressing space. How 
> ever as i said to a friend of mine on the phone the other week i do not 
> regret making the switch to the mac and do find it in a lot of ways better to 
> use than windows. it would just be nice if they could modify voice over a bit 
> to make it easyer to use. sorry if this has been a bit of a ramble hope that 
> people understand what i am getting at. 
> 
> Ian McNamara
> 
> -- 
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Music scores for the Mac...

[David Hole]

Hi folks.
Does anyone of you know of any score/notation-software for the Mac that 
works with VoiceOver?
For example, have anyone here tried Avid Sibelius? If so, is it usable 
or what?

Thanks so much in advance
-David

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confused, two set of commands on the mac, what?

[heather kd5cbl]

Forgive my ignorance as I am really knew to the mac, there is two sets of 
keyboard commands?  So can voiceover users choose which ones to use or no? 
Can someone explain what they mean two sets of commands, I only found one 
using the braille guide.  Heather 


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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[David Taylor]

OK, so in Windows, I could use the arrow keys and the tab key to navigate. They 
are on opposite sides of the keyboard. If I don't have a number pad, which most 
people don't any more, I can't do anything else at all with one hand. To 
navigate many dialogs, all I can get to is the buttons, and I am often left 
with no idea what the dialogue is about without going into a special mode of 
one kind or another. That's hardly level. With my Mac, I can get all the 
information I need and hardly ever leave the keyboard and arrow keys, and do 
seriously less stretching than I  used to. You seem to want something that 
simply doesn't exist anywhere. Computers are primarily designed to be used with 
pointing devices, not keyboards, and keyboards alone just never give access to 
the whole system. There are always screen reader commands, different cursors 
and modes etc. The difference is that in VO we genuinely have two choices for 
doing most things: the standard OS way of doing things plus an additional VO 
way which is failsafe almost every time. 

Cheers
Dave

On 10 Oct 2010, at 19:50, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

Carolyn,
 
thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do not 
wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.
 
but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger 
navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its 
Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.
 
Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user 
can use their Mac in this way.
 
All I want is that level playing field.
 
Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what the 
sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.
 
Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that 
Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing, sure 
there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this conversation I 
would ask to have nothing to do with cost.
 
its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other 
accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or wrongly, 
and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one persons needs 
on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the Apple approach to 
work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on this list.
 
I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you can 
using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off. this 
helps a lot.
 
Twitter @neilbarnfather
 
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
 
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
 
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com]on Behalf Of Carolyn
Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
 
Hi Neil and others:
I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a year, 
and only made the switch semi-successfully.  Further, I'm not a genius, a tech 
expert, or even a wizzard.  I'm just a computer user who is fascinated by what 
I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for my daily functioning. 
Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS 
using one finger.  That to me is a big stretch.  Unless, of course you are a 
wizzard:).
Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here.  Two totally different 
operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things.  Microsoft has 
been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at least the early 90's 
 If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great for you.   I also find 
myself frustrated by some of the fingering requirements of the OS with 
Voiceover.  It's far from perfect.  But, toexpect the same level of comfort 
from a system that is a standard, out-of-the-box system is putting the bar too 
high for a company that is finally trying to level the playingfield for us.
Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and 
energy to get as far as I have on the MAC.  But, I did so knowing this field 
hasn't been thoroughly plowed.  I wanted to have an option other than paying 
Freedom Scientific another 900 to get JAWS up-to-date.  Which meant no new 
computer for at least a couple more years.  So, I requested a Mac as a 
Christmas present, and I'm doing my best to make this an option for me and 
others who, like me, don't think we should have to pay more to get less.
Now, if I had the PC down to one-finger use, as you say you have, perhaps I'd 
be telling a different story.  For now, I'm pretty happy to learn and grow into 
a system as it grows and developes, rather than forking out another thousand to 
line the pockets of specialty providers.
End of soapbox.  Thanks for reading.
 
Ca

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[David Taylor]

Neil,

The additional VO commands are often just easier to reach, but why are you 
denying yourself the OS ones? One point I will conceed is that the 
documentation should tell us about both OS and VO keystrokes.

Cheers
Dave

On 10 Oct 2010, at 19:58, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

Anne,

so you hit the nail on the head in part here, so I'm busy reading the Voice
Over manual, which happily guides me through how to do everything the Voice
Over way, yet, hang on, there's already a command for that for sighted
users, such as the Command F2, which is mirrored by Control, Options, M,
well there you have it, three keys instead of two, the sighted Mac keyboard
user gets an easier ride than the blind keyboard Mac user.

what Apple should do is remove all the duplicate commands. if you can do it
with an already established command, they should just put that in the
manual, that way us blind users aren't learning a completely different
structure of commands to our sighted peers.

Several family members have Mac's, yet I feel isolated from asking for help
from them, as they are used to things just like you have said, they say
Command F2, I say no, its Control, Options, M... this isn't how it should be
and is counterproductive.

well is in my book anyhow.

has anyone sat down and rewritten the Voice Over manual by any chance
removing all the unique Voice Over commands and replacing them with existing
established keyboard commands?

I would be interested to see just how much over lap there is.

Twitter @neilbarnfather

Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator

TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson
Sent: 10 October 2010 18:56
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

Hello Neil,

I've never used a PC so can't make comparisons. However, I currently have a
student who likes to use just one hand to operate his Mac and he does this
by using Quick Nav and Keyboard commander.

Everyone has different needs, so you should put in the Keyboard Commander
shortcuts that you need and that are not duplicated by Quick Nav. You can
then do most things with your right hand.

There is also nothing to stop you using the standard Mac shortcuts such as
Ctrl-F2 to go to the Apple menu, Ctrl-F3 to go to the Dock and Ctrl-F8 to go
to the Status menus.

There are lots more like this and i tend to use them rather than the VO
equivalents. However, with the VO keys locked, I use the VO commands
instead.

Cheers,

Anne


On 10 Oct 2010, at 19:02, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no
need
> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
> 
> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential
piece
> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
> 
> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
> curve, stick with it and you'll get there...
> 
> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius
to
> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response,
I
> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...
> 
> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
> hopefully answer once and for all.
> 
> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
> if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from
the
> sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the
same
> way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.
> 
> However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
> sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.
> 
> This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader
either
> before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.
> 
> This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
> both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same
way.
> 
> My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their
implementation
> on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that,
it's
> the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
> and of a different design.
> 
> What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I d

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[David Taylor]

Ian,

Try just pressing space next time! It most often does work, and is the way to 
access many controls! You'll find that simple things just do usually work. I 
agree with your suggestion for modifying the Option key to open the menu bar 
though.

Cheers
Dave

On 10 Oct 2010, at 20:12, Ian McNamara wrote:

Hello all i have only been a mac user for just over a month and i have to say i 
can see neels point. I have to say it would be good if they could create a way 
where like jaws the option key could become like a windows key and take you in 
to all the menues that way and give the controle key some of the commands that 
you would need voice over keys for. although i have got use to the voice over 
keys it is slightly anoying to have to hold them down just to move around a web 
sight. forinstance if you are highlighted on a check box with jaws all you have 
to do is press space bar how ever if you are on with voice over you have to 
hold them two keys down before pressing space. How ever as i said to a friend 
of mine on the phone the other week i do not regret making the switch to the 
mac and do find it in a lot of ways better to use than windows. it would just 
be nice if they could modify voice over a bit to make it easyer to use. sorry 
if this has been a bit of a ramble hope that people understand what i am 
getting at. 

Ian McNamara

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Teresa Cochran]

Hi, Neil,

Well, you could have a reference for Mac keystrokes. The Missing Manual  series 
from OReilly Publishers covers this extensively. Just as you have insert-f11 to 
bring up the task tray list in JAWS or SA, so you also you have Windows-B to do 
the same thing. I'm a firm believer that there should always be at least two 
ways to do any one thing on the computer.

I can also understand how you wouldn't want to "fix something that isn't 
broken". Perhaps the Mac isn't for you. I've tried Ubuntu many times, hoping I 
could switch to it, and have realized it's just not for me. That's okay with 
me. If you're feeling pressured to switch and you don't want to then you 
shouldn't feel obliged to do so.

Teresa

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Scott Ford]

Hi John,
I was just mentioning on the list the other day, that I frequently find 
myself needing to boot into windows on my Mac to complete work because the 
application does not exist or thedoes not work as well as on the PC.  I truly 
feel that the Mac software is making leaps and great strides with every new 
release, however looking at the two platforms critically I feel the Mac is just 
not quite there.  I am willing to bet that within the next year this will not 
be the case.  The switchers are growing by the day.  The other little option 
not found on the pc  is the fact that one can boot into windows or run vm ware 
fusion to access windows.  On their Mac.  I am  an Adaptive Technology 
specialist, every month I am getting more and more requests about the Mac.  The 
truth is that many people dislike the fact that one must use many more keys 
than on the pc, however we are seeing that Apple is addressing this with each 
subsequent release as well.  For example the quick nav and the magic track pad 
gestures for Voice over.  I guess what I am attempting to say is  that I feel 
the answer is not a cut and dried one.  There are positives and negatives on 
both sides of the issue.The bottom line is that looking at a pure 
productivity stand point the pc would have it hands down right now.  This will 
continue to change with Apples continued commitment to voice over and the 
adaptive technology that it continues to incorporate in the OS.  I hope that 
this helps.
Sincerely,
Scott

On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Carolyn,
>  
> thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do not 
> wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.
>  
> but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger 
> navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its 
> Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.
>  
> Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user 
> can use their Mac in this way.
>  
> All I want is that level playing field.
>  
> Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what 
> the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.
>  
> Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that 
> Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing, 
> sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this 
> conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.
>  
> its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other 
> accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or wrongly, 
> and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one persons needs 
> on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the Apple approach to 
> work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on this list.
>  
> I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you 
> can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off. 
> this helps a lot.
>  
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>  
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>  
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
> phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com]on Behalf Of Carolyn
> Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>  
> Hi Neil and others:
> I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a 
> year, and only made the switch semi-successfully.  Further, I'm not a genius, 
> a tech expert, or even a wizzard.  I'm just a computer user who is fascinated 
> by what I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for my daily 
> functioning. 
> Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS 
> using one finger.  That to me is a big stretch.  Unless, of course you are a 
> wizzard:).
> Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here.  Two totally different 
> operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things.  Microsoft has 
> been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at least the early 
> 90's  If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great for you.   I also 
> find myself frustrated by some of the fingering requirements of the OS with 
> Voiceover.  It's far from perfect.  But, toexpect the same level of 
> comfort from a system that is a standard, out-of-the-box system is putting 
> the bar too high for a company that is finally trying to level the 
> playingfield for us.
> Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and 
> energy to get as far as I have on the MAC.  But, I did so knowing this field 
> hasn't been thoroughly plowed.  I wanted to have an option other than paying 
> Freedom Scientific another 900

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi Neil,

Can you give an example of this 1 finger navigation on windows?  You mean just 
using tab and the arrow keys?

Thanks.
On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Carolyn,
>  
> thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do not 
> wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.
>  
> but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger 
> navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its 
> Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.
>  
> Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user 
> can use their Mac in this way.
>  
> All I want is that level playing field.
>  
> Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what 
> the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.
>  
> Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that 
> Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing, 
> sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this 
> conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.
>  
> its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other 
> accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or wrongly, 
> and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one persons needs 
> on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the Apple approach to 
> work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on this list.
>  
> I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you 
> can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off. 
> this helps a lot.
>  
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>  
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>  
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
> phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Carolyn
> Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>  
> Hi Neil and others:
> I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a 
> year, and only made the switch semi-successfully.  Further, I'm not a genius, 
> a tech expert, or even a wizzard.  I'm just a computer user who is fascinated 
> by what I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for my daily 
> functioning. 
> Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS 
> using one finger.  That to me is a big stretch.  Unless, of course you are a 
> wizzard:).
> Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here.  Two totally different 
> operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things.  Microsoft has 
> been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at least the early 
> 90's  If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great for you.   I also 
> find myself frustrated by some of the fingering requirements of the OS with 
> Voiceover.  It's far from perfect.  But, toexpect the same level of 
> comfort from a system that is a standard, out-of-the-box system is putting 
> the bar too high for a company that is finally trying to level the 
> playingfield for us.
> Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and 
> energy to get as far as I have on the MAC.  But, I did so knowing this field 
> hasn't been thoroughly plowed.  I wanted to have an option other than paying 
> Freedom Scientific another 900 to get JAWS up-to-date.  Which meant no new 
> computer for at least a couple more years.  So, I requested a Mac as a 
> Christmas present, and I'm doing my best to make this an option for me and 
> others who, like me, don't think we should have to pay more to get less.
> Now, if I had the PC down to one-finger use, as you say you have, perhaps I'd 
> be telling a different story.  For now, I'm pretty happy to learn and grow 
> into a system as it grows and developes, rather than forking out another 
> thousand to line the pockets of specialty providers.
> End of soapbox.  Thanks for reading.
>  
> Carolyn
>  
>  
> - Original Message -
> From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:02 AM
> Subject: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>  
> Dear All,
> 
> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
> 
> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
> 
> I've heard all the usu

Re: confused, two set of commands on the mac, what?

[Ricardo Walker]

Hi,

What we meant by 2 commands is, some voiceover commands overlap with standard 
Mac keyboard commands.  For example,you can press VO M to take you to the menu 
bar or, use the Mac OS command control F2.  There is no setting to select or 
anything like that.  There is a handful of other example like this.

hth
On Oct 10, 2010, at 4:19 PM, heather kd5cbl wrote:

> Forgive my ignorance as I am really knew to the mac, there is two sets of 
> keyboard commands?  So can voiceover users choose which ones to use or no? 
> Can someone explain what they mean two sets of commands, I only found one 
> using the braille guide.  Heather 
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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Mary Otten]

Neal, you have a good point about the duplicate voiceover commands. I haven't 
used JAWS in a while, so things may have changed, but there was a time when 
JAWS did the same, taught special JAWS commands where Windows keyboard commands 
already existed. Your reference to sighted people using keyboard commands with 
a Mac and Windows and you wanting to be on equal footing with them is 
interesting. When somebody gives you a osX keyboard command, why not just try 
it? My experience with most sighted people, except really good keyboardists 
like those I use to work with or programmers who have been around for a while 
is that few know any keyboard commands, and most are totally dependent on the 
mouse and are lost without it. The fact that keyboard alternatives are poorly 
if at all documented in mainstream help whether for MS or Apple or 3rd party 
programs does not help. I have used Windows for a long time, and I have no idea 
what you are talking about when you say you do one finger navigation, unless 
you mean using the up and down arrows to navigate in a document. Get a keyboard 
that has a number pad and use the numpad commander that has been a part of 
voiceover for a while. There is also the keyboard commander and there are those 
built in keyboard commands some of which you can find and document by looking 
in the various menus. 

I agree that one of the areas where Apple's support for voiceover is lacking is 
compared with the documentation that comes with my Windows screen reader. 
Not many programs come with thorough manuals, probably because companies find 
that not enough people read them. For those of us who do prefer the written 
word to hours of podcasts or learning by exploration without an overview and 
examples, well, we're more or less out of luck. But I don't see a difference 
there between MS and Apple either. Indeed, when it comes to access-related 
documentation, Apple has it all over MS these days IMHO.

Mary Otten
motte...@gmail.com


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Re: confused, two set of commands on the mac, what?

[Carolyn]

Hi Heather:
There are times when the developers of voiceover overlapped with the operating 
system regular commands.  So, you may find there are often several ways of 
getting the same thing done.  Some people, for example read mail messages using 
Vo-j, while others simply use the enter key to access a message, still others 
flick the trackpad.  This can sometimes be confusing, but ultimately allows one 
to find which ways work best for their individual needs. (unless of course, 
you're indecisive, and then you could be in a real dither:)

Carolyn
  - Original Message - 
  From: heather kd5cbl 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:19 PM
  Subject: confused, two set of commands on the mac, what?


  Forgive my ignorance as I am really knew to the mac, there is two sets of 
  keyboard commands?  So can voiceover users choose which ones to use or no? 
  Can someone explain what they mean two sets of commands, I only found one 
  using the braille guide.  Heather 

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mud clients

[May McDonald]

Hi there everyone. I'm not having much luck here and figured I'd ask here on 
the list again. Is there a client that works well on the mac with voiceover. 
For windows there's vipmud, do we have anything?

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Re: mud clients

[Jude DaShiell]

Have you tried tiny-fugue yet?  That works well on Linux.  You can test it 
once you get it installed with tf ancientanguish.org too.On Sun, 10 Oct 
2010, May McDonald wrote:



Hi there everyone. I'm not having much luck here and figured I'd ask here on 
the list again. Is there a client that works well on the mac with voiceover. 
For windows there's vipmud, do we have anything?

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Re: mud clients

[Ian McNamara]

no i do not think we do at present as i would like one if we do as i still have 
to use windows for mudding at the moment.

Ian McNamara.

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Re: CD burning options on the Mac and another Amadeus question

[Sarah Alawami]

no worries. vo cmd f5 will do it then vo shift space.

Take care.
On Oct 10, 2010, at 10:46 AM, John D. Lipsey wrote:

> Silly question ahead!!
> 
> How does one rout the VO cursor to a particular area?  I think I knew this at 
> one point, but have forgotten it as I don't tend to use it very often.
> 
> On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:27 AM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> response below your question.
>> 
>> On Oct 9, 2010, at 11:38 PM, John D. Lipsey wrote:
>> 
>>> Also, has anyone successfully performed batch processing with Amadeus?  AS 
>>> I recall, it wants you to drag and drop files to add to the batch.  Another 
>>> work around
>> 
>> Go to  the file menu and go to new batch processor
>> Now set your options in each  tab ignoring that area all the way to the 
>> right.
>> Now when it comes time, rout the vo curser to the area and vo shift space on 
>> that area.
>> Now brows to the files. Your batch conversion will start right away.
>> 
>> I hope that helps.
>> 
>> Sarah Alawami
>> MSN: marri...@gmail.com 
>> aim: marri...@gmail.com:
>> 
>> website: http://music.marrie.org
>> face book: facebook.com/marrie
>> youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
>> Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
>> Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/
>> 
>> The early bird gets the worm. The late worm gets to live. 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: mud clients

[May McDonald]

No, haven't tried that. I'll see what happens.


On 2010-10-10, at 4:00 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:

> Have you tried tiny-fugue yet?  That works well on Linux.  You can test it 
> once you get it installed with tf ancientanguish.org too.On Sun, 10 Oct 2010, 
> May McDonald wrote:
> 
>> Hi there everyone. I'm not having much luck here and figured I'd ask here on 
>> the list again. Is there a client that works well on the mac with voiceover. 
>> For windows there's vipmud, do we have anything?
>> 
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>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Scott Howell]

Sott I just can't agree with you about the level of productivity. Whenever 
someone says this, I find their scope is very narrow. If you were to base your 
productivity on one application or on specialized software, perhaps that would 
be true. The only software I need at work now is Microsoft Office. This is 
primarily because I do not have iWork and some compatibility issues with WOrd 
documents still exists. However, for research, e-mail, and managing my calendar 
are all done on the Mac. So, I am just having a hard time understanding how you 
can consider the "PC" (i.e. WIndows) as being more productive when so many 
examples of productive users exists. Can you further define what you mean?
On Oct 10, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Scott Ford wrote:

> Hi John,
>   I was just mentioning on the list the other day, that I frequently find 
> myself needing to boot into windows on my Mac to complete work because the 
> application does not exist or thedoes not work as well as on the PC.  I truly 
> feel that the Mac software is making leaps and great strides with every new 
> release, however looking at the two platforms critically I feel the Mac is 
> just not quite there.  I am willing to bet that within the next year this 
> will not be the case.  The switchers are growing by the day.  The other 
> little option not found on the pc  is the fact that one can boot into windows 
> or run vm ware fusion to access windows.  On their Mac.  I am  an Adaptive 
> Technology specialist, every month I am getting more and more requests about 
> the Mac.  The truth is that many people dislike the fact that one must use 
> many more keys than on the pc, however we are seeing that Apple is addressing 
> this with each subsequent release as well.  For example the quick nav and the 
> magic track pad gestures for Voice over.  I guess what I am attempting to say 
> is  that I feel the answer is not a cut and dried one.  There are positives 
> and negatives on both sides of the issue.The bottom line is that looking 
> at a pure productivity stand point the pc would have it hands down right now. 
>  This will continue to change with Apples continued commitment to voice over 
> and the adaptive technology that it continues to incorporate in the OS.  I 
> hope that this helps.
> Sincerely,
> Scott
> 
> On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
> 
>> Carolyn,
>>  
>> thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do 
>> not wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.
>>  
>> but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger 
>> navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its 
>> Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.
>>  
>> Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user 
>> can use their Mac in this way.
>>  
>> All I want is that level playing field.
>>  
>> Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what 
>> the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.
>>  
>> Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that 
>> Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing, 
>> sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this 
>> conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.
>>  
>> its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other 
>> accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or 
>> wrongly, and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one 
>> persons needs on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the 
>> Apple approach to work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on 
>> this list.
>>  
>> I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you 
>> can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off. 
>> this helps a lot.
>>  
>> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>>  
>> Neil Barnfather
>> Talks List Administrator
>>  
>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your 
>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>>  
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com]on Behalf Of Carolyn
>> Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>>  
>> Hi Neil and others:
>> I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a 
>> year, and only made the switch semi-successfully.  Further, I'm not a 
>> genius, a tech expert, or even a wizzard.  I'm just a computer user who is 
>> fascinated by what I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for 
>> my daily functioning. 
>> Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS 
>> using one finger.  That to me is a big stretch.  Unless, of course you are a 
>> wizzard:).
>> Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges he

Re: FYI Iterm and SecureCRT beta not accessible

[George]

I'm the lead developer on iTerm2 (http://sites.google.com/site/
iterm2home/). Although accessibility support hasn't yet been
implemented, I have added it as an enhancement for a future version.
Please follow the bug by "starring" it here so you can be made aware
of it when it's implemented: 
http://code.google.com/p/iterm2/issues/detail?id=232

You can star it by clicking the image with the title "Vote for this
issue and get email change notifications".

On Oct 7, 7:18 am, Esther  wrote:
> Hi Garry,
>
> Related to your questions about using Terminal,  you might try signing  
> onto the mac-access list and asking Travis Siegel for suggestions  
> about optimal configurations. I'm not sure that he could address your  
> specific situation for server usage, but he is a heavy Terminal user  
> for his programming.   The link with information about subscribing to  
> mac-access is:
>
> http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/Mailing-Lists.html
>
> HTH. Cheers,
>
> Esther
>
> On Oct 6, 2010, Garry Turkington wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi,
>
> > As mentioned before on this list the limitations of VO in Terminal are
> > a real pain for me so I've been looking at alternatives.  I've now
> > tried both iTerm and the new beta of Secure CRT and unfortunately can
> > report that neither work well with VO.
>
> > iTerm has an accessible interface but once connected the remote screen
> > text isn't accessible.  Secure CRT on the other hand is impressively
> > inaccessible in that none of its on-screen controls are recognised by
> > VO, all are simply read as 'unknown'.
>
> > So the search goes on.  Just passing along the info in case others are
> > looking at these as options.
>
> > Regards,
> > Garry

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Facebook App and Making Comments with Voiceover

[Peg Jolene]

Greetings Listers:

 

I'm finding accessing comments on Facebook pages difficult when using the
app with the IPod Touch. I can neither read them directly from the IPod, nor
can I respond. My Facebook App is up-to-date. 

 

Any help is appreciated.

 

Thanks much!

 

PJ

 

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mac verses pc

[heather kd5cbl]

I have taken to using both computers right now.  I have a mac laptop and a 
windows desktop.  Grant it I use my windows desktop more but as I learn 
voiceover, I hope to move between both systems equally.  It is not about which 
is better for it is a matter of perspective of the individual.  I like jaws for 
what it does, making my windows pc blind friendly.  But, I cant access jaws in 
say a public library, the computer lab at school or my sighted cousin's house 
but I can access a mac in all those locations using voiceover. Provided there 
computer is not ten years old!  But I like my windows pc for the use of 
Kurzweil1000, Duxbury which I use with my braille printer and the victor stream 
to read books.  I hope that in the future, kurzweil1000 will have a mac 
equivalent like kurzweil 3000.  Now that I am familiar with the mac, I can walk 
in a library, school or any other public places in get on a mac to do what I 
need to do without sighted help.  I know someone might put forth system access 
to go for windows users?  Just one problem, if that computer is not connected 
to the internet, how can you access system access?  If you are at a log in 
screen, how would you know with out speech to tell you?  I am not defending one 
over the other, it is a matter of what one's needs are at the time.  I believe 
one should be familiar with both, not that they need to have both!  Heather 

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Laura M]

Neil, I get where you're coming from--the first couple weeks I spent
with the Mac, I had exactly the feelings you describe. I had no
problem learning the OS, but I couldn't possibly figure any way that
it would be more efficient than JAWS. I have done a complete 180 in
the year or so I've had since then. With quicknav, I can do more with
one finger than I could with JAWS, and I can do so more conveniently.
I'm not using the number row to jump through headings on a website,
for example, then coming back to the arrow keys to continue reading.
I've made a couple changes in keyboard commander, and they've also
improved things, but those changes are no more extensive than anything
I did with the JAWS keyboard manager.

There are three things that really make it quicker for me: the
trackpad, the item chooser, and--pretty surprisingly, given that I
hated it at the start--the need for interaction.

With the trackpad, if I'm on a page or a program I'm familiar with, I
can instantly get to what I want by just touching it, as opposed to
tabbing or arrowing however many times it takes to get there. It does
mean taking your hand off the keyboard, yes, but the time saver is
more than worth it, imo. There are many, many times in work now, when
I'm using a Windows machine with no option but to tab and tab, that
I'm beyond frustrated not to have it. That's also why the model of
interaction helps. At the beginning, it seemed like a lot more work to
have to interact just to get to a button, but if you've got a program
with a lot of controls, skipping over them by groups, as opposed to
painstakingly going past each control until you find the one you want,
is far more efficient.

The item chooser is extremely useful for similar reasons. It's not
just present on webpages, where it gives you the JAWS functionality of
narrowing down  headers or form controls or whatever; it's in every
program Voiceover works with. The more complicated the program, the
more beneficial it is.

I don't think Voiceover is perfect by any means. There's a level of
customisation possible in JAWS that isn't there yet, but if we're just
talking navigation, I think a lot of the solutions that seem backward
at first really do pay off. And I'd also add that I feel much more
like I'm using the Mac as sighted people do than I ever did with
windows. With Voiceover, I'm not forced to do everything linearly; a
friend can say, "You want the icon at the top right of the screen,"
and that's actually useful information now. There's a context to
things that the Windows screenreaders simply didn't provide me.

I also suspect there are duplicate VO keyboard commands for existing
OS shortcuts because it was probably far more useful and common to
lock the VO keys before quicknav came along. It's maybe not ideal now,
but I can see why it made sense then. I listen out for whatever
keyboard shortcuts the program menus list, and learn them, instead.
There are also good resources on the web that list the most common
keyboard shortcuts, which might help you out.

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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Mike Arrigo]

Hi, if you have a desktop computer, you can use the numpad commander, and this 
allows you to use the numpad for most commands. Also, you can turn on the quick 
nav feature and this will allow you to use the regular arrow keys for 
navigation. I actually enjoy navigating with the track pad, true, I do have to 
remove my hand from the keyboard to do that, but that's no big deal for me.
On Oct 10, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
> 
> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
> 
> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
> curve, stick with it and you'll get there...
> 
> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...
> 
> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
> hopefully answer once and for all.
> 
> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
> if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
> sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
> way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.
> 
> However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
> sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.
> 
> This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
> before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.
> 
> This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
> both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.
> 
> My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
> on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
> the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
> and of a different design.
> 
> What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
> handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
> leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.
> 
> comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
> both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
> commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.
> 
> Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
> would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
> iPad, all 3 of which I own.
> 
> However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity,
> or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user
> moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again.
> 
> *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's
> still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again.
> 
> So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for
> me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more
> importantly one finger for most commands and navigation.
> 
> I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one
> finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two
> fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself
> passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered.
> 
> So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do
> not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging
> existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's
> biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please
> forgive me if I missed up Control and Command.
> 
> Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this
> is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one
> finger for navigation of the Mac itself?
> 
> Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I
> wish to make the switch, but it has to be because it's as easy or easier,
> the fact that Voice Over is more stable is a factor, but not a huge one.
> 
> I do not buy all the security hype, nor the OS enhancements or stability
> fron

Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Tiffany D]

Well, I signed into this account and forgot to sign back into my
normal e-mail address so saw this message and figured I would respond.
 Btw, if I see something in digest mode and want to respond to it, am
I allowed to make a separate e-mail or can I snip parts of the e-mail
when responding so as not to create clutter?  I don't mean
technically.  I mean according to the rules of this list.

My biggest problem with the Mac is the whole concept of interaction.
It's bad enough that Windows has graphical menus instead of clean ones
or a command line,, but Mac has those plus this interacting.  Even
copying and pasting from a webpage to Text Edit is a chore!  Buddy,
your information on quick nav certainly helped me.  I sometimes find
it annoying when I accidentally hit the arrow keys and it turns on and
I never really knew what it was for until now.  Teresa, you're
absolutely right on force quitting only the misbehaving programs.
That's one thing that Windows, and even DOS, does that truly annoys
me.

To all those still using JFW etc.: Have you tried NVDA?  It's free and
is truly a wonderful screenreader, mostly on par with the others.
Also, has anyone considered simply putting Windows on the Mac with
Bootcamp or a virtual machine?  I know the hard core Macusers will
give me dirty looks but it is possible.  Just don't ask me how, as
I've never done it.

To Neil: I didn't even know that duplicate commands existed.  I
thought that the VoiceOver ones were the only ones available and that
when the screenreader is turned off, the commands don't work.  To me,
the concept is incredibly stupid.  To Ian: I agree with you on the
annoyance of having to use three keys just to navigate a webpage.  Now
that I have my IBM ThinkPad X32, I rarely use the Mac, except for
making Youtube videos and whenever I just want to play with it for a
change of pace.  But I remember what it was like using it full time.
As much as I'm not a Windows fan, I was so happy when that laptop
came!

To Dave: I never used the numpad.  Must try it on my desktop.
Perhaps, it will make me even faster at doing things.  I would say
that DOS beats all of these point and click systems, but then I
remembered that VocalEyes and other screenreaders also have review
modes.  I never thought of it that way with an os that's designed to
be used with the keyboard, but you're right.  Our access is different.

To Teresa: I didn't know that there are Windows commands that have
their counterparts in screenreader ones.  How do I get ahold of that
manual?  I completely agree with you about not doing something if it
doesn't feel right.  It seems like everyone is trying to get me to use
some form of Linux because I like the command line.  But I have
absolutely no desire to learn it or Unix for that matter.  I'd much
rather learn Enhanced Dr-DOS or FreeDOS.

To Scott: Not everyone likes touch screens.  I keep hearing about all
the benefits of the I products but refuse to get them because they
don't have real keyboards.  I wish that they would do something about
this and not by forcing people to buy external ones and still use
gestures either.

Talk soon,
Eleni
PS. Still looking for a good hardware synth.  If anyone has a KeyNote
Gold especially, a DecTalk Express or PC, a Double Talk LT or PC or a
Greek-speaking Apollo, please let me know.  Also still haven't gotten
the Apple IIGS out to play with Proterm but will update you guys on my
progress when I do.

On 10/10/2010, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
> Hi, if you have a desktop computer, you can use the numpad commander, and
> this allows you to use the numpad for most commands. Also, you can turn on
> the quick nav feature and this will allow you to use the regular arrow keys
> for navigation. I actually enjoy navigating with the track pad, true, I do
> have to remove my hand from the keyboard to do that, but that's no big deal
> for me.
> On Oct 10, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no
>> need
>> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
>> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
>>
>> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
>> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential
>> piece
>> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
>> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
>>
>> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
>> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
>> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
>> curve, stick with it and you'll get there...
>>
>> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius
>> to
>> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response,
>> I
>> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be

Re: mac verses pc

[Tiffany D]

Hi Heather,

You can't access JFW in those places, but you can put NVDA (a free and
powerful screenreader) on a compact flash card or thumb drive etc. and
simply run it off of there without even having to install it on the
library's, your school's or your cousin's computer, and you can do
this whether or not said computer is connected to the net.  I'm not
sure if there is a Mac equivalent for Kurzweil 1000, but there is a
free and decent braille translation program called Louis, which works
with a large variety of braille embossers.  It's worth checking out if
you can.

All the best,
Eleni

On 10/10/2010, heather kd5cbl  wrote:
> I have taken to using both computers right now.  I have a mac laptop and a
> windows desktop.  Grant it I use my windows desktop more but as I learn
> voiceover, I hope to move between both systems equally.  It is not about
> which is better for it is a matter of perspective of the individual.  I like
> jaws for what it does, making my windows pc blind friendly.  But, I cant
> access jaws in say a public library, the computer lab at school or my
> sighted cousin's house but I can access a mac in all those locations using
> voiceover. Provided there computer is not ten years old!  But I like my
> windows pc for the use of Kurzweil1000, Duxbury which I use with my braille
> printer and the victor stream to read books.  I hope that in the future,
> kurzweil1000 will have a mac equivalent like kurzweil 3000.  Now that I am
> familiar with the mac, I can walk in a library, school or any other public
> places in get on a mac to do what I need to do without sighted help.  I know
> someone might put forth system access to go for windows users?  Just one
> problem, if that computer is not connected to the internet, how can you
> access system access?  If you are at a log in screen, how would you know
> with out speech to tell you?  I am not defending one over the other, it is a
> matter of what one's needs are at the time.  I believe one should be
> familiar with both, not that they need to have both!  Heather
>
> --
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Re: Facebook App and Making Comments with Voiceover

[Sarah Alawami]

Hello. use http://m.facebook.com or the touch site which I don't have a link to.

Good luck.

I too find the facebook app a bit hard to use.

S
On Oct 10, 2010, at 6:21 PM, Peg Jolene wrote:

> Greetings Listers:
> 
>  
> 
> I’m finding accessing comments on Facebook pages difficult when using the app 
> with the IPod Touch. I can neither read them directly from the IPod, nor can 
> I respond. My Facebook App is up-to-date.
> 
>  
> 
> Any help is appreciated.
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks much!
> 
>  
> 
> PJ
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature 
> database 5518 (20101009) __
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
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Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...

[Eric Oyen]

Neil,
good points all the way around.

I, personally, am a microsoft hater (I have way too much experience with the 
inner workings of the OS to be anything other). but thats not the point.

Voiceover does have a "keyboard commander" and a "numberpad commander" mode. I 
haven't tried either yet as I am still learning some of the more interesting 
features of voiceover.

I have had only very minimal experience with jaws. I have at least one blind 
client that has had a number of problems with his windows installation (virus 
infected, malware, etc). usually, it required reinstalltion of windows (after 
saving a backup of the data he wished saved). 

now, I am not sure what other "quick navigation" tools for voiceover/OS X are 
available. I am just getting used to how voiceover works now. it would be nicer 
if apple went with the nested function setup instead of all these weird 
keyboard combinations that don't seem relevant to the task. I do know that 
apple scripting can help on this a lot (I am learning that too as we speak).

in any case, I too, would like a level playing field alongside the sighted 
user. anything that furthers this can't be a bad thing (and if it also 
increases production, so much the better).

-Eric

On Oct 10, 2010, at 11:50 AM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:

> Carolyn,
>  
> thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do not 
> wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.
>  
> but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger 
> navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its 
> Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.
>  
> Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user 
> can use their Mac in this way.
>  
> All I want is that level playing field.
>  
> Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what 
> the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.
>  
> Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that 
> Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing, 
> sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this 
> conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost.
>  
> its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other 
> accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or wrongly, 
> and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one persons needs 
> on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the Apple approach to 
> work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on this list.
>  
> I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you 
> can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off. 
> this helps a lot.
>  
> Twitter @neilbarnfather
>  
> Neil Barnfather
> Talks List Administrator
>  
> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible 
> phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Carolyn
> Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
>  
> Hi Neil and others:
> I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a 
> year, and only made the switch semi-successfully.  Further, I'm not a genius, 
> a tech expert, or even a wizzard.  I'm just a computer user who is fascinated 
> by what I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for my daily 
> functioning. 
> Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS 
> using one finger.  That to me is a big stretch.  Unless, of course you are a 
> wizzard:).
> Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here.  Two totally different 
> operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things.  Microsoft has 
> been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at least the early 
> 90's  If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great for you.   I also 
> find myself frustrated by some of the fingering requirements of the OS with 
> Voiceover.  It's far from perfect.  But, toexpect the same level of 
> comfort from a system that is a standard, out-of-the-box system is putting 
> the bar too high for a company that is finally trying to level the 
> playingfield for us.
> Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and 
> energy to get as far as I have on the MAC.  But, I did so knowing this field 
> hasn't been thoroughly plowed.  I wanted to have an option other than paying 
> Freedom Scientific another 900 to get JAWS up-to-date.  Which meant no new 
> computer for at least a couple more years.  So, I requested a Mac as a 
> Christmas present, and I'm doing my best to make this an option for me and 
> others who, like me, don't think we should have to pay more to get less.
>