Hi Neil, Can you give an example of this 1 finger navigation on windows? You mean just using tab and the arrow keys?
Thanks. On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: > Carolyn, > > thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do not > wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed. > > but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger > navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its > Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one. > > Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user > can use their Mac in this way. > > All I want is that level playing field. > > Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what > the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do. > > Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that > Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing, > sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this > conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost. > > its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other > accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or wrongly, > and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one persons needs > on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the Apple approach to > work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on this list. > > I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you > can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off. > this helps a lot. > > Twitter @neilbarnfather > > Neil Barnfather > Talks List Administrator > > TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible > phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com > > From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Carolyn > Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30 > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... > > Hi Neil and others: > I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a > year, and only made the switch semi-successfully. Further, I'm not a genius, > a tech expert, or even a wizzard. I'm just a computer user who is fascinated > by what I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for my daily > functioning. > Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS > using one finger. That to me is a big stretch. Unless, of course you are a > wizzard:). > Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here. Two totally different > operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things. Microsoft has > been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at least the early > 90's If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great for you. I also > find myself frustrated by some of the fingering requirements of the OS with > Voiceover. It's far from perfect. But, to expect the same level of > comfort from a system that is a standard, out-of-the-box system is putting > the bar too high for a company that is finally trying to level the > playingfield for us. > Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and > energy to get as far as I have on the MAC. But, I did so knowing this field > hasn't been thoroughly plowed. I wanted to have an option other than paying > Freedom Scientific another 900 to get JAWS up-to-date. Which meant no new > computer for at least a couple more years. So, I requested a Mac as a > Christmas present, and I'm doing my best to make this an option for me and > others who, like me, don't think we should have to pay more to get less. > Now, if I had the PC down to one-finger use, as you say you have, perhaps I'd > be telling a different story. For now, I'm pretty happy to learn and grow > into a system as it grows and developes, rather than forking out another > thousand to line the pockets of specialty providers. > End of soapbox. Thanks for reading. > > Carolyn > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:02 AM > Subject: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... > > Dear All, > > Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need > for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and > have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success. > > The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon > my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece > of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the > key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not. > > I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot > think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen > readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning > curve, stick with it and you'll get there... > > All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to > watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I > don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over... > > So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to > hopefully answer once and for all. > > In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that > if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the > sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same > way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same. > > However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the > sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently. > > This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either > before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself. > > This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where > both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way. > > My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation > on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's > the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places > and of a different design. > > What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one > handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger. > leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc. > > comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use > both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many > commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement. > > Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this > would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and > iPad, all 3 of which I own. > > However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity, > or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user > moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again. > > *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's > still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again. > > So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for > me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more > importantly one finger for most commands and navigation. > > I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one > finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two > fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself > passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered. > > So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do > not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging > existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's > biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please > forgive me if I missed up Control and Command. > > Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this > is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one > finger for navigation of the Mac itself? > > Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I > wish to make the switch, but it has to be because it's as easy or easier, > the fact that Voice Over is more stable is a factor, but not a huge one. > > I do not buy all the security hype, nor the OS enhancements or stability > front. Yes Voice Over is more stable than JAWS / Window Eyes, but > principally because it is part of the operating platform, and not because > its superior or that Mac OSx is. > > This statement about operating platforms may have held some degree of water > back in the days gone by, but with Windows 7, and a decent PC specification, > one can get as much performance and stability out of a PC as a Mac. > moreover, in terms of security, I've never known anyone I know who has a > brain using a PC to get a virus, the problem is that the PC world is where > the masses are, and many of those masses are nits, and they do stupid > things... when the PC pops up asking if they wish to install and download a > virus to delete all their data, they um, then ah, and then click OK. well > that's stupidity and not Windows being vulnerable. > > *Note* I do accept that if you introduce JAWS or Window Eyes to a PC that > this can affect OS performance and stability. Indeed, my technical support > staff have many a time commented, how to watch an amazing machine, filled > with the latest technology, working like a dream turn to treacle, install > JAWS. > > this is true, and is a significant factor to me wishing to jump ship, of > course if FS did what Microsoft did with Windows 7, i.e. dropped the whole > program and started a fresh, I believe that JAWS could seriously give Voice > Over a run for its money on the stability front. as it happens this move is > highly unlikely. > > So there it is folks, what do you Apple wizards think? > > best regards. > > Twitter @neilbarnfather > > Neil Barnfather > Talks List Administrator > > TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your > accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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