SOmetimes I think the question really is why did the Apple Engineers come up with the alternate key commands instead of leveraging the existing commands of the OS? I suspect this was to keep uniformity with all the other non-OS specific commands. Was that the right choice? That is a good question and I think you can argue both sides. Uniformity is valuable when people are trying to learn something new, but at the same time leveraging the existing commands can be valuable as if nothing else, it frees up other commands that could be use for the screen reader. Perhaps this is a suggestion for Apple. Of course the fact that you have the choice is great and at least the VO commands do not interfere with other apps, which is typically not the case with Windows screen readers. So, at least that is one good move Apple made. Ah, one other point I imagine you could argue in favor of the VO commands (not a big point perhaps) is you do not have to generally move your hands as far from the home row. :)
On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: > Anne, > > so you hit the nail on the head in part here, so I'm busy reading the Voice > Over manual, which happily guides me through how to do everything the Voice > Over way, yet, hang on, there's already a command for that for sighted > users, such as the Command F2, which is mirrored by Control, Options, M, > well there you have it, three keys instead of two, the sighted Mac keyboard > user gets an easier ride than the blind keyboard Mac user. > > what Apple should do is remove all the duplicate commands. if you can do it > with an already established command, they should just put that in the > manual, that way us blind users aren't learning a completely different > structure of commands to our sighted peers. > > Several family members have Mac's, yet I feel isolated from asking for help > from them, as they are used to things just like you have said, they say > Command F2, I say no, its Control, Options, M... this isn't how it should be > and is counterproductive. > > well is in my book anyhow. > > has anyone sat down and rewritten the Voice Over manual by any chance > removing all the unique Voice Over commands and replacing them with existing > established keyboard commands? > > I would be interested to see just how much over lap there is. > > Twitter @neilbarnfather > > Neil Barnfather > Talks List Administrator > > TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your > accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anne Robertson > Sent: 10 October 2010 18:56 > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... > > Hello Neil, > > I've never used a PC so can't make comparisons. However, I currently have a > student who likes to use just one hand to operate his Mac and he does this > by using Quick Nav and Keyboard commander. > > Everyone has different needs, so you should put in the Keyboard Commander > shortcuts that you need and that are not duplicated by Quick Nav. You can > then do most things with your right hand. > > There is also nothing to stop you using the standard Mac shortcuts such as > Ctrl-F2 to go to the Apple menu, Ctrl-F3 to go to the Dock and Ctrl-F8 to go > to the Status menus. > > There are lots more like this and i tend to use them rather than the VO > equivalents. However, with the VO keys locked, I use the VO commands > instead. > > Cheers, > > Anne > > > On 10 Oct 2010, at 19:02, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: > >> Dear All, >> >> Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no > need >> for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and >> have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success. >> >> The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon >> my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential > piece >> of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the >> key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not. >> >> I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot >> think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen >> readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning >> curve, stick with it and you'll get there... >> >> All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius > to >> watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, > I >> don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over... >> >> So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to >> hopefully answer once and for all. >> >> In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that >> if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from > the >> sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the > same >> way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same. >> >> However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the >> sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently. >> >> This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader > either >> before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself. >> >> This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where >> both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same > way. >> >> My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their > implementation >> on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, > it's >> the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places >> and of a different design. >> >> What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one >> handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger. >> leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc. >> >> comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to > use >> both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many >> commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement. >> >> Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this >> would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, > and >> iPad, all 3 of which I own. >> >> However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from > productivity, >> or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user >> moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again. >> >> *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's >> still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back > again. >> >> So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for >> me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more >> importantly one finger for most commands and navigation. >> >> I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one >> finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two >> fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself >> passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one > fingered. >> >> So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I > do >> not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging >> existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's >> biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, > please >> forgive me if I missed up Control and Command. >> >> Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this >> is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one >> finger for navigation of the Mac itself? >> >> Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I >> wish to make the switch, but it has to be because it's as easy or easier, >> the fact that Voice Over is more stable is a factor, but not a huge one. >> >> I do not buy all the security hype, nor the OS enhancements or stability >> front. Yes Voice Over is more stable than JAWS / Window Eyes, but >> principally because it is part of the operating platform, and not because >> its superior or that Mac OSx is. >> >> This statement about operating platforms may have held some degree of > water >> back in the days gone by, but with Windows 7, and a decent PC > specification, >> one can get as much performance and stability out of a PC as a Mac. >> moreover, in terms of security, I've never known anyone I know who has a >> brain using a PC to get a virus, the problem is that the PC world is where >> the masses are, and many of those masses are nits, and they do stupid >> things... when the PC pops up asking if they wish to install and download > a >> virus to delete all their data, they um, then ah, and then click OK. well >> that's stupidity and not Windows being vulnerable. >> >> *Note* I do accept that if you introduce JAWS or Window Eyes to a PC that >> this can affect OS performance and stability. Indeed, my technical support >> staff have many a time commented, how to watch an amazing machine, filled >> with the latest technology, working like a dream turn to treacle, install >> JAWS. >> >> this is true, and is a significant factor to me wishing to jump ship, of >> course if FS did what Microsoft did with Windows 7, i.e. dropped the whole >> program and started a fresh, I believe that JAWS could seriously give > Voice >> Over a run for its money on the stability front. as it happens this move > is >> highly unlikely. >> >> So there it is folks, what do you Apple wizards think? >> >> best regards. >> >> Twitter @neilbarnfather >> >> Neil Barnfather >> Talks List Administrator >> >> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your >> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
