OK, so in Windows, I could use the arrow keys and the tab key to navigate. They are on opposite sides of the keyboard. If I don't have a number pad, which most people don't any more, I can't do anything else at all with one hand. To navigate many dialogs, all I can get to is the buttons, and I am often left with no idea what the dialogue is about without going into a special mode of one kind or another. That's hardly level. With my Mac, I can get all the information I need and hardly ever leave the keyboard and arrow keys, and do seriously less stretching than I used to. You seem to want something that simply doesn't exist anywhere. Computers are primarily designed to be used with pointing devices, not keyboards, and keyboards alone just never give access to the whole system. There are always screen reader commands, different cursors and modes etc. The difference is that in VO we genuinely have two choices for doing most things: the standard OS way of doing things plus an additional VO way which is failsafe almost every time.
Cheers Dave On 10 Oct 2010, at 19:50, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote: Carolyn, thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do not wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed. but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one. Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user can use their Mac in this way. All I want is that level playing field. Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what the sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do. Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing, sure there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this conversation I would ask to have nothing to do with cost. its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or wrongly, and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one persons needs on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the Apple approach to work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on this list. I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you can using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off. this helps a lot. Twitter @neilbarnfather Neil Barnfather Talks List Administrator TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com]on Behalf Of Carolyn Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... Hi Neil and others: I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a year, and only made the switch semi-successfully. Further, I'm not a genius, a tech expert, or even a wizzard. I'm just a computer user who is fascinated by what I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for my daily functioning. Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS using one finger. That to me is a big stretch. Unless, of course you are a wizzard:). Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here. Two totally different operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things. Microsoft has been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at least the early 90's If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great for you. I also find myself frustrated by some of the fingering requirements of the OS with Voiceover. It's far from perfect. But, to expect the same level of comfort from a system that is a standard, out-of-the-box system is putting the bar too high for a company that is finally trying to level the playingfield for us. Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and energy to get as far as I have on the MAC. But, I did so knowing this field hasn't been thoroughly plowed. I wanted to have an option other than paying Freedom Scientific another 900 to get JAWS up-to-date. Which meant no new computer for at least a couple more years. So, I requested a Mac as a Christmas present, and I'm doing my best to make this an option for me and others who, like me, don't think we should have to pay more to get less. Now, if I had the PC down to one-finger use, as you say you have, perhaps I'd be telling a different story. For now, I'm pretty happy to learn and grow into a system as it grows and developes, rather than forking out another thousand to line the pockets of specialty providers. End of soapbox. Thanks for reading. Carolyn ----- Original Message ----- From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:02 AM Subject: Can keyboard only navigation ever be... Dear All, Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success. The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not. I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning curve, stick with it and you'll get there... All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over... So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to hopefully answer once and for all. In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same. However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently. This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself. This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way. My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places and of a different design. What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger. leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc. comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement. Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and iPad, all 3 of which I own. However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity, or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again. *Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again. So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more importantly one finger for most commands and navigation. I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered. So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please forgive me if I missed up Control and Command. Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one finger for navigation of the Mac itself? Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I wish to make the switch, but it has to be because it's as easy or easier, the fact that Voice Over is more stable is a factor, but not a huge one. I do not buy all the security hype, nor the OS enhancements or stability front. Yes Voice Over is more stable than JAWS / Window Eyes, but principally because it is part of the operating platform, and not because its superior or that Mac OSx is. This statement about operating platforms may have held some degree of water back in the days gone by, but with Windows 7, and a decent PC specification, one can get as much performance and stability out of a PC as a Mac. moreover, in terms of security, I've never known anyone I know who has a brain using a PC to get a virus, the problem is that the PC world is where the masses are, and many of those masses are nits, and they do stupid things... when the PC pops up asking if they wish to install and download a virus to delete all their data, they um, then ah, and then click OK. well that's stupidity and not Windows being vulnerable. *Note* I do accept that if you introduce JAWS or Window Eyes to a PC that this can affect OS performance and stability. Indeed, my technical support staff have many a time commented, how to watch an amazing machine, filled with the latest technology, working like a dream turn to treacle, install JAWS. this is true, and is a significant factor to me wishing to jump ship, of course if FS did what Microsoft did with Windows 7, i.e. dropped the whole program and started a fresh, I believe that JAWS could seriously give Voice Over a run for its money on the stability front. as it happens this move is highly unlikely. So there it is folks, what do you Apple wizards think? best regards. Twitter @neilbarnfather Neil Barnfather Talks List Administrator TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. 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